Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[KayJay]

Calculation helped by offline tournament experience vs. high lvl players like Saj, Mr. R, cFive, Ryo, Sol and many others.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Great job guys, I know you put a lot of effort into it! 25 bad matchups vs. 20 good. That's mid-tier from tournament play perspective!

Standouts for me from online only experience are Mewtwo and Cloud which I just simply wreck. I literally would put them in 60:40 Samus favor.
The 30-70s I would push to even. Olimar's simply not that threatening and with SDI duck hunt has enormous trouble killing floaties with any smash attack. Both are easily gimped/spiked/ledge-snap-comboed.
Rosa pika fox shiek, I agree with very much.

Other weird placements for me are roy, pacman. kirby which I feel significant advantage over.
I would bump quite a few in the even and opponent favor list around.

On the flip side I would bump up bowser, and peach.

One more patch and we're golden.
Sakurai: D-air. Bigger D-air hitbox. No grounded tech on the spike, like Ganon. Be fair.

 

[KayJay]

I see Pac & Kirby slightly in Samus favor also, but I got overruled by not having exp. against international tournament players.
Roy is hell if you face someone with godlike EDD footsies, Roy can bait all day with his high runspeed, just like Fox every whiffed F-tilt, Dash attack or whatever will get punished. Trust me, he is much scarier than Marth for Samus at high lvl.

 

[Crystanium]

I disagree with that list. Marth wrecks Samus. Lucas is worse than Ness, so I don't see how he'd perform better against Samus. How does Palutena stop Samus? She only has one reflector and her attacks are slower than molasses. Mr. Game & Watch doesn't seem too bad. Drop the Miis. No serious player uses them. I think Diddy Kong is even. His banana is what he relies heavily on. It's his bread and butter. For Jonny Westside to have helped with that list and performed well against Sheik players, I don't know how she has an advantage.

 

[White_Pointer]

I disagree with that list. Marth wrecks Samus. Lucas is worse than Ness, so I don't see how he'd perform better against Samus. How does Palutena stop Samus? She only has one reflector and her attacks are slower than molasses. Mr. Game & Watch doesn't seem too bad. Drop the Miis. No serious player uses them. I think Diddy Kong is even. His banana is what he relies heavily on. It's his bread and butter. For Jonny Westside to have helped with that list and performed well against Sheik players, I don't know how she has an advantage.

- Samus can space Marth pretty effectively, the MU is quite even.
- Just because a character is "worse" or "better" doesn't mean the MU is worse or better. I personally think Lucas is under rated but there are a number of differences you need to consider, not the least of which is that Lucas' recovery is far less gimpable.
- I personally rank the Palutena MU as even, but I can understand why they put her where they did. She "only" has one reflector? Lol seriously dude, you only *need* one reflector. But that's not necessarily the reason for the ranking. I'd say her speed, combo potential, kill power and invincible moves like her bair and dash attack all factor into it. She's also more difficult to juggle and gimp due to having a longer air dodge and teleport recovery.
- G&W is pretty horrible. He's short and hard to hit, he can bucket our CS and our bomb explosions, his aerials are disjointed and has an invincible up smash. Playing a good G&W is not fun.
- Diddy still wins even without his banana but it's a lot closer than if we had no way to neutralise it.
- Sheik has the advantage on frame data alone.

It should be noted though that all of those MU's listed as 45:55 are very much winnable for Samus if you're on point. The only MUs that are really bad are those listed as 40:60 or worse.

 

[DungeonMaster]

i would actually give the advantage to Samus in the Marth matchup, slightly so. Samus can shut down his favorite approach which is aerial fair/nair. Z-air doesn't allow him to play that spacing game and shield dash into up-B will often catch him as he tries to fade back.
His jab->f-smash is really irritating online, and his jab covering cross up is likewise irritating. But his damage output is low, and so long as you're not repeatedly trying to challenge his disjoints you will always have more and better combos and damage.
A decent marth for me is less of a problem than an idiot rosalina who just hits buttons.
There's a big gap between a bad matchup and a good fight with slight advantage.
There's also a big gap between playing a good player and playing a true expert, in person, under pressure. And so that's why this list is important.
Again, the Mewtwo and Cloud make no sense to my experience, I have left in my FG wake a giant salty trail of "good to very good" Mewtwo and Cloud corpses but I'm willing to believe that at the highest level that matchup may flip (though I struggle with rationalizing how).

 

[White_Pointer]

Again, the Mewtwo and Cloud make no sense to my experience, I have left in my FG wake a giant salty trail of "good to very good" Mewtwo and Cloud corpses but I'm willing to believe that at the highest level that matchup may flip (though I struggle with rationalizing how).

Mewtwo shuts us down with practically one move alone: confusion. That move singlehandedly stuffs our zoning tools and our approach options, and his speed makes sure zair isn't really an issue either. He's also really hard to edge guard. Cloud is fast with huge disjointed attacks, most of which beat us on frame data alone without even taking into account the disjoint. The Cloud MU is kinda like the Fox MU for us, you gotta get him off stage and try to keep him there asap but that's far easier said than done.

 

[Crystanium]

White_Pointer Fight any good Marths? See what Marth room has to say on the match-up. Lucas is no issue. Seriously. Palutena's reflector on works once and it's slow. Fire a super missile at it and follow up with with a CS. By the first reflect it's exhausted and the CS will go through. Sorry you feel different on G&W and Diddy.

 

[KayJay]

For the Palutena MU we had exp. against players like Prince Ramen. Reflector is not the reason Palutena has a slight advantage over Samus. It's her very fast Tomahawks, Invincible B-Air, Dash Attack, fast Runspeed, Jab1 follow ups and early KO potential with U-Air.
The Marth rating was clearly towards 50:50, 1x 45:55 1x 60:40 (Samus favor) and all other ratings were 50:50. It's a really honest Matchup, the player with the better footsies and reads wins. Nobody has an advantage here.
Lucas is scarier for Samus than Ness, sh z-air and the much safer side B, he is much harder to edgeguard which makes a difference. Ness has a hard time against Samus if she keeps 1 foxtrot distance in the neutral and punish most of his stuff with f-tilt. He also has a very hard time grabbing a super safe Samus. That's where Lucas does a far better job. Thanks to his z-air he is not nearly as easy to outspace. Ness may be the better character overall, but Lucas has better tools against Samus.

 

[Xygonn]

Mewtwo shuts us down with practically one move alone: confusion. That move singlehandedly stuffs our zoning tools and our approach options, and his speed makes sure zair isn't really an issue either. He's also really hard to edge guard. Cloud is fast with huge disjointed attacks, most of which beat us on frame data alone without even taking into account the disjoint. The Cloud MU is kinda like the Fox MU for us, you gotta get him off stage and try to keep him there asap but that's far easier said than done.

Confusion isn't that bad. You have to mixup zair with SH nair against mewtwo because he can dash in under. Or use full hops. Uair soft hit combos into usmash against mewtwo for an easy kill. You can also punish DA on shield with usmash OoS. Our jab1 is really great for boxing because mewtwo has not great frame data and our dtilt reaches further than mewtwo. Mewtwo can be hard to edge guard, but just try to catch the two frame on teleport. It's not super hard to do with bomb and uair combining to give a huge amount of coverage time. Since mewtwo has a good double to jump to aerial coming back toward the ledge, just don't sit right on the ledge where you can get hit. Sit back a bit. Then you can punish end lag if they come above the stage, or chase offstage if they fade back. If they ledge grab, jump over and RCS into stage to catch getup options.

 

[White_Pointer]

Confusion isn't that bad. You have to mixup zair with SH nair against mewtwo because he can dash in under. Or use full hops. Uair soft hit combos into usmash against mewtwo for an easy kill. You can also punish DA on shield with usmash OoS. Our jab1 is really great for boxing because mewtwo has not great frame data and our dtilt reaches further than mewtwo. Mewtwo can be hard to edge guard, but just try to catch the two frame on teleport. It's not super hard to do with bomb and uair combining to give a huge amount of coverage time. Since mewtwo has a good double to jump to aerial coming back toward the ledge, just don't sit right on the ledge where you can get hit. Sit back a bit. Then you can punish end lag if they come above the stage, or chase offstage if they fade back. If they ledge grab, jump over and RCS into stage to catch getup options.

Yes, confusion really is that bad. It's practically unpunishable. Zair is the only thing we have against it and he's so fast now he can run straight under it on reaction. Or just shield it and wait for you to do something else, because they know we don't have anything else. A good M2 isn't going to just dash in on you recklessly. M2's dtilt reaches much further than ours, I dunno what you're saying there...plus it's disjointed, plus it combos into fair. You can't catch the 2 frame on teleport if the M2 recovers from above the stage, which they almost always do these days (if you're unaware, characters with teleport recoveries - M2, Zelda, Palutena and Sheik - don't get the 2 frame if they teleport from above the stage). M2's will also often use confusion as a way to cover their approach to the ledge and there's no way you'll be standing close enough to the ledge to punish anything they do without being hit by confusion. He's also got easier kill confirms including a kill throw. Most of M2's moves have better frame data that ours, including the majority of his aerials (only bair is slower). Shadow ball does the same damage as CS but can be charged in the air. M2's speed, air mobility, confusion, disjoints, frame data and air dodge all come together as a package that's incredibly difficult for Samus to deal with if the M2 knows what they are doing.

 

[DungeonMaster]

All good points.
For z-air spacing vs. mewtwo I use z-air and if I feel he's going to try to dash under I fast-fall the SH into z-air. You get the first hitbox, which combos into d-tilt or jab1.
A really good mixup for confusion is neutral B CS then hold back to fade out of most of his options, but really jumping out is totally safe.
If I fail to predict correctly his approach I spot dodge (as I'm already pressing down typically for d-tilt).
But I would say I need such advanced tactics against less than 1 in 20, maybe, 5% of mewtwos out there. The other 95% get hit by a dash combo, then a d-air combo, and they're at death percents and or dead.

Right now the defining characteristics for a bad matchup for me are:
#1 lack of significant punish windows - just generally too safe (shiek. rosa, fox, pika, mario)
#2 large AND fast AND lingering disjointed hitbox/hurtbox ratio (rosa, fox, shiek, G&W)
#3 difficult to combo either because of absurd hurtbox size and or floatiness - which forced us to rely on our crappy d-air as a starter to net the best damage (rosa, G&W, pika, mario)

You need a combination of those attributes to irritate me.
Cioud has huge punish windows, and combos easily, he's literally not a threat.
Mewtwo is combo food and overall his moveset is not that safe. He has some fast moves, some large disjoints, some that linger (up-smash) granted, but he's no shiek/mario.

 

[Afro Smash]

Mewtwo isn't combo food, he's a light floaty with an airdodge that's frame 2 turns him invisible and allows him to move in any direction

Cloud has barely any punish windows, literally all of his aerials are safe when used correctly

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo isn't combo food, he's a light floaty with an airdodge that's frame 2 turns him invisible and allows him to move in any direction

Cloud has barely any punish windows, literally all of his aerials are safe when used correctly

Common misconception that Mewtwo is floaty just because he jumps like the PK boys. He's not. He falls as fast as Mario, only having a slow falling acceleration. He's still getting hit by Samus's combos despite his frame 2 airdodge, and though they may not work for as long as others, like DungeonMaster said by that point he's already near death. It's more accurate to say he's not juggle prone, his airdodge is great, but it's no Bat Within.

Cloud's aerials are only truly unpunishable when he's in limit. If not, then he has to use them in a rather predictable manner to avoid lag, and you can take advantage of this by keeping to the ground whenever he makes a move in the air, then either shielding or dodging as appropriate. He also can't counter-block Charge Shots when landing like other sworsdmen, and the gimps Samus inflicts on him are real. In short, Cloud is only really unfavourable for Samus when he has limit, otherwise he's perfectly manageable.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Agreed fam, but his hurtbox is huge as we both know. I used to combo him to hell and back before we lost those 3 end frames on DA, now it's only if your DA crosses up very early in the animation that he can AD out of follow up.

Cloud's aerials are really not that good in this specific matchup. They're great overall, don't get me wrong, but I never feel the Sheik-level pressure.
it's not split second timing necessary to react to him and the safety angles require setup/proper positioning.
F-air, N-air B-air will beat all of his aerials coming from beneath or to the side of him depending on the aerial. Here's an Air 2 Air combo chain that shows even B-air, with its early extended hurtbox can be used versus his d-air. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZoIiNIBbs&feature=youtu.be (rage quit - that was not lag).
I literally do take him on in the air often and successfully.

 

[White_Pointer]

If you find Cloud an easy matchup I'd probably suggest you're just not running into good ones when playing online. The Cloud MU is very similar to the Fox MU in that you need to get him off stage and keep him there asap, but that's far easier said than done. Cloud has better frame data than us plus a huge disjoint. He's hard to punish even on shield or whiff because of auto cancels. You can't challenge Cloud in the air and it's very difficult to challenge him on the ground. You can beat his dair with a well spaced bair, sure, but you're not going to beat his nair or bair that way. Once you're above him and he's juggling you with up tilts and up airs it's never fun.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you find Cloud an easy matchup I'd probably suggest you're just not running into good ones when playing online. The Cloud MU is very similar to the Fox MU in that you need to get him off stage and keep him there asap, but that's far easier said than done. Cloud has better frame data than us plus a huge disjoint. He's hard to punish even on shield or whiff because of auto cancels. You can't challenge Cloud in the air and it's very difficult to challenge him on the ground. You can beat his dair with a well spaced bair, sure, but you're not going to beat his nair or bair that way. Once you're above him and he's juggling you with up tilts and up airs it's never fun.

Can't challenge Cloud? Then don't. The best thing any character can do, not just Samus, is keep their feet planted on the ground to minimize exposure to his aerials, and eventually force him to use his much less safe grounded moves. Jab and dtilt can both be punished reliably with screw attack (as can sourspot dair with fast reflexes), while his ftilt can be tilted back. Things only really get dicey when he has limit, which gives the maneuverability to overcome Samus's zoning and vary his approaches, plus destroy Samus's recovery with Limit Cross Slash.

 

[Afro Smash]

The issue with just staying on the floor is that our oos options are poor and letting somone wail on our shield isn't good, also just because we're grounded doesn't mean he has to use grounded options, sh ff bair is free to spam on our shield if we do that, and also leaves us open to tomahawks

And if the MU is even at best without limit then big disadvantage with Limit then it's still definitely a bad mu

As for Mewtwo I mean saying he's near kill % when he's out of combo % is a big exaggeration, but the biggest thing in this MU is that we can never dictate the pace or force an approach, he has a charging projectile (which he can hold) and a reflector, and we don't have good approaches, sh zair is good to beat Reflector but anytime you short hop you risk getting JC Up Smashed due to Mewtwos speed and low traction

 

[DungeonMaster]

White_Pointer I was playing last night and 8 out of 10 people could perfect pivot - and used them in game matches.
I don't know what the bar is for "good" but if they try to space their moves, try to hit the autocancels, fast fall, and try their combos, can perform some ATs, use DI, SDI, then they're not "bad".
I still have no problem with Cloud, Mewtwo. A simple switch to rosa, pika and i'm instantly struggling much more.
It's the hitbox interactions, the punish windows and very importantly the damage output from our combos. They can't ALL be bad. Likewise the pika/fox can't ALL be good, and many times I know I'm fighting a secondary or counter pick.

We definitely have frame advantage over all his aerials.
Cloud F-air 18 N-air 5 B-air 11 Up-air 7 D-air 11 Total: 52
Samus F-air 6 N-air 8 B-air 9 Up-air 5 D-air 17 Total: 45
His B-air is 11, my N-air is 8 and I'll take him on straight up air-to-air no problem. No fancy techniques necessary.

For comparison:
Sheik: 5 3 4 4 15 Total 31
Big problem. We all know it, we've all been there.

For fun I tracked my win loss since Friday, because I'm a loon.

Cloud: Wins 27 Losses: 3 (lots of Cloud on FG, lots of dead and salty)
Pika: Wins 1 Losses 17 (just one guy, a pika main, destroyed his robin, good connection right up until the end)
Mewtwo: Wins 13 Losses: 0

Afro Smash A basic dash attack combo nets 30-40%. Basic D-air Up-smash/Up-tilt and he's at 70-80%. F-smash, B-air, CS will all kill him then. I just don't understand why you can't force an approach. There's something fundamental I'm missing, his shadow ball is not that good?
The reflector isn't important? And it's slow as tar? He needs a hard read, frame 12.

We should post some generic matches in the gameplay thread - is there any footage vs. top mewtwos/cloud in tournament?
I've been keeping a stockpile of footage of players kicking my ass on FG, so I have footage of other characters but literally zero M2 and Cloud. Most of these are in fact tournament players, anther's experts, if the tags mean anything. I'm going to make a "So for glory is easy mode - huh?" video at some point.

 

[Crystanium]

I never thought of Cloud's aerials as superb. I think he performs better on the ground. I would avoid using Samus' aerials to clash with Cloud's, however, since his is disjointed. I can see d-air as not being all that great because it's hit box is only downward. If you're experienced, you should be able to avoid this and counter with an attack that hits Cloud from the side. Z-air is good, just because it's longer than Cloud's sword and it's the safest of Samus' aerials.

What gives Samus trouble is Cloud's speed and his limit. You never know when Cloud will use the latter, just like Cloud will never know when Samus will use her CS. A good Cloud will wait for an opening to use his limit. (Then again, so will a good Samus.) Or he just may prefer to hang onto it, since it boosts all of his stats and will be useful if he needs to recover. Like most sword characters, Cloud has the advantage and all you can hope for his knowing how he works.

As for Mewtwo, his dodging and recovery are amazing. I'd recommend anyone to watch Abadango's Mewtwo to get an idea of what a good Mewtwo looks like. Take notes. I've noticed that Mewtwo likes to roll back more than Walmart's prices, so if you catch yourself fighting a Mewtwo who rolls away as you dodge, next time try running still and wait for the roll in order to hit him with your dash. If he rolls behind you, you can easily f-tilt in the opposite direction. Hopefully that will work.

Mewtwo's main kill moves are shadow ball, confusion to d-smash, f-smash, or u-smash. Samus is tall enough to get hit by u-smash, but then so is Mewtwo. Mewtwo's main attack may be n-air or f-air. N-air is effective because Mewtwo can move easily without getting punished easily. If you're concerned about Mewtwo using Confusion, then do the same thing as you would do against Mario: use uncharged CS, homing missiles, or z-air.

We definitely have frame advantage over all his aerials.
Cloud F-air 18 N-air 5 B-air 11 Up-air 7 D-air 11 Total: 52
Samus F-air 6 N-air 8 B-air 9 Up-air 5 D-air 17 Total: 45
His B-air is 11, my N-air is 8 and I'll take him on straight up air-to-air no problem. No fancy techniques necessary.

Where did you get the frames?

 

[White_Pointer]

Mewtwo's main kill moves are shadow ball, confusion to d-smash, f-smash, or u-smash.

Up throw bruh. Also fair is a very potent kill move that can be confirmed off a 50/50. Most M2's don't fish for confusions or disables at kill %. Most will just run up and grab you, or throw out an up smash, or set up a 50/50 into a fair. You yourself said to watch Abadango's play but it appears you're not doing that, otherwise you'd see how few KOs he actually gets off fsmash and dsmash with or without confusion or disable and even shadow ball kills are rare (he almost never fully charges it). Most of his kills come off up smash, up throw, fair and dair spikes.

 

[Crystanium]

White_Pointer I forgot to add u-throw, even though it had originally been on my mind while filling the list. Thank you. Yes, that kill move is something to look out for. Good thing Mewtwo's grab range is poor. I have been watching Abadongo and focused on the CEO 2016 videos for his current play style. I'm also pointing out what I've personally experienced, though.

 

[Xygonn]

Yes, confusion really is that bad. It's practically unpunishable. Zair is the only thing we have against it and he's so fast now he can run straight under it on reaction. Or just shield it and wait for you to do something else, because they know we don't have anything else. A good M2 isn't going to just dash in on you recklessly. M2's dtilt reaches much further than ours, I dunno what you're saying there...plus it's disjointed, plus it combos into fair. You can't catch the 2 frame on teleport if the M2 recovers from above the stage, which they almost always do these days (if you're unaware, characters with teleport recoveries - M2, Zelda, Palutena and Sheik - don't get the 2 frame if they teleport from above the stage). M2's will also often use confusion as a way to cover their approach to the ledge and there's no way you'll be standing close enough to the ledge to punish anything they do without being hit by confusion. He's also got easier kill confirms including a kill throw. Most of M2's moves have better frame data that ours, including the majority of his aerials (only bair is slower). Shadow ball does the same damage as CS but can be charged in the air. M2's speed, air mobility, confusion, disjoints, frame data and air dodge all come together as a package that's incredibly difficult for Samus to deal with if the M2 knows what they are doing.

I'm really not sure why you think confusion is unpunishable. It leaves them very open if you AD through it into an aerial, or DA on the ground.

I'll have to settle the dtilt range thing in training mode. I just know I've had M2 miss me with dtilt and I punish with dtilt. It's true that ours doesn't combo and mewtwo's does. M2 isn't "dashing in recklessly". They are dashing in because SH zair conditioning. If they are cautious about dashing at the start of a SH, zair can keep them out. Zair to grab on shield happy players is a necessary evil. I'm not saying M2 is easy, the speed buff makes the MU pretty hard. But we do have tools that are specifically good against M2 that make it more manageable. As for aerial frame data, our uair is faster than anything M2 has. Shadow ball has significantly worse frame data, being 23 raw and 6 out of charge vs 16 raw and 2 out of charge. Shadow ball doesn't travel as fast and the overall result is shadow ball doesn't have the tech chase threat that CS does. I find shadow ball most annoying in little to no charge form where M2 can use it to cover approaches.

 

[Crystanium]

Confusion isn't unpunishable, but it is annoying, especially if Mewtwo predicts that you're going to use your CS. This is why homing missiles are preferable in this match, just as it is in any match where characters can reflect attacks. There is a risk of using a super missile to CS as well. I'm not sure how fast confusion comes out, but it's still risky. It's obvious that Samus' best bet is to avoid getting close to Mewtwo. I'd probably recommend charging up CS, but not at its fullness. This could possibly cause the player forget that you're hanging onto a CS.

 

[White_Pointer]

Good thing Mewtwo's grab range is poor.

Mewtwo is so fast now his poor grab range is really a non issue.

I'm not sure how fast confusion comes out, but it's still risky.

Confusion comes out frame 12. Also, like Zelda's reflector, the reflect property actually stays active long after the actual hitbox of the move is gone - an extra 20 frames.

 

[Crystanium]

White_Pointer If you're getting grabbed by Mewtwo, you'e not spacing properly. That goes for anyone, including myself.

Tested Mewtwo v. Samus. Mewtwo can be harmed with SM to CS. Zelda's is slightly different.

 

[Crystanium]

Tonight went well, but when I went on FG, hoping I'd get good players to fight, I ended up fighting two different Ryus back to back. The first one beat me. I think I was 2-stocked by the first one on the first match, but the second match was going in my favor until the end for some reason. I was beat twice by the second Ryu as well. My issue is that I'm forced into fighting close up and being forced to the edge. Ryu seems as though his shielding is perfect, even to the point that he has no landing lag. I don't understand, since there were times he should have been punished.

So the main issues seem to be Ryu's absurd shielding and seemingly lagless landing, as well as his ability to dominate Samus by chasing her. Tonight went well because I fought two pretty good players earlier and won. It's just these two Ryus gave me trouble. So seemingly lagless landing to shield and chasing: how do I handle these? I really question that match-up list, but humor me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Really you should be playing a strong mid range game. Smart Zairs, dash attacks and grabs. Air to air your buttons beat his and can lead to follow ups. Try to always have charge shot on deck, so mistakes are punished harshly. Deal with up close pressure by up bing and knocking Ryu away. If a Ryu wants to empty jump and dash in, an easy response is just dash back pivot grab.

When you don't have charge shot feel free to run away and force an approach. This is one of the few matches where risk vs reward does NOT favor Ryu. This is a HUGE deal for him.

Really Samus has lot of set-play responses to Ryu that net her good reward. I agree she beats him.

 

[Crystanium]

Thanks. Like I said before, I was turning one of the matches around before I lost. I kept running away and would do a quick turn around on the ground before SHing and z-air away. It was working pretty well, but I don't know what led to my loss. I risked using Up-B a few times and they did work. Maybe I'll have to set up a projectile to grab next time, since these two were very defensive.

But anyway, yesterday was good. I've been able to hold my own against gold players and win silver players on Anther's Ladder, so I'm proud of myself for that.

 

[HoSmash4]

The issue with just staying on the floor is that our oos options are poor and letting somone wail on our shield isn't good, also just because we're grounded doesn't mean he has to use grounded options, sh ff bair is free to spam on our shield if we do that, and also leaves us open to tomahawks

And if the MU is even at best without limit then big disadvantage with Limit then it's still definitely a bad mu

As for Mewtwo I mean saying he's near kill % when he's out of combo % is a big exaggeration, but the biggest thing in this MU is that we can never dictate the pace or force an approach, he has a charging projectile (which he can hold) and a reflector, and we don't have good approaches, sh zair is good to beat Reflector but anytime you short hop you risk getting JC Up Smashed due to Mewtwos speed and low traction

let the bodies hit the floor

 

[zblaqk]

Anyone have a good secondary for samus? Someone to cover her poor matchups?

 

[Crystanium]

Anyone have a good secondary for samus? Someone to cover her poor matchups?

That's up to you. Who feels comfortable to you? I tried Zamus and perhaps I haven't honestly given her enough time, but Mario feels right for me.

 

[zblaqk]

I play most characters at a pretty decent level, but two characters that give me trouble would be mario and marth.

 

[Crystanium]

I play most characters at a pretty decent level, but two characters that give me trouble would be mario and marth.

Yeah, Marth's given me trouble, too. My main problem with ZSS is she's a glass cannon and she relies a lot on grabs, even though her grabs are garbage, so that's another reason why I don't use her. Mario is heavier, feels basic, but can deal good combos and damage. Like I said, it depends on who you think feels comfortable. If I had to choose another character, I'd probably go for Ike. Sure, he's slow, but he has range, his f-air is lagless, he's heavy, and he's a powerhouse when it comes to damage. I personally like using the purple colored cape.

I want to point out that while fighting against a Mr. Game & Watch tonight, I made good use of homing missiles. You'll be surprised how a barrage of those can be annoying for your opponent. It's easy when you know you don't have to approach. It makes you the one in control.

 

[Xpect]

Im so sick of greninja, any advice? Punishes?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Im so sick of greninja, any advice? Punishes?

I have a few suggestions that may help:
Don't CS through his water shuriken until he's at kill percents, it's tempting to tack on damage and drop the pressure but really it's not worth it.
SDI up and towards him to escape his multi jab - you can also sometimes escape outward if he catches you on the tip.
Shadow sneak can be punished with pretty much any 10-frame or less move so f-smash, d-smash. It can be per-emptively interrupted by CS if you're feeling balsy.
Jab1 -> shield his counter. Also tip of up-tilt -> shield. It's not a fast counter.
Always go offstage - his recovery is very vulnerable - practice the ledgesnap bomb combo. If he tends to angle outwards use n-air, if he tends to go deep d-air.
His grab is a bit slow - so SHAD n-air -> d-tilt/DA is a decent setup (particularly dodging through his water shuriken).
Shield dash to screw up his aerial timing and up-b OOS.

 

[WoolMoth]

I use to think Samus did pretty well against Roy but after playing a really good Roy what the hell am I supposed to do? You can't challenge his disjoint in the air but he's too fast and falls to fast to punish landings or anything. And you can't grab because if you do and whiff you get f smashed and die at 60. He gets free approach in the air and can react and punish all of your defensive options meaning that he approaches pretty easily. Any advice for this one.

 

[Afro Smash]

If he's comitting to double jumping in, retreat and pivot grab his landing or get underneath him with short hop up air (roy has nothing good to stop challeneges from beneath him), just dont remain static and let him come in diagonally on to you, as samus struggles to challenge appraoches from there, especially disjoints. If he's approaching on the ground or with short hops, keep him out with retreating Zair and Super Missiles, and burst out of the corner with Dash Attacks. Make sure to press all your advantages, always chase him offstage as he has a terrible recovery, his weight and fall speed make for easy cs confirms with zair and f tilt and make him easy combo food

 

[Xygonn]

Also if he gets predictable with SH nair, run under and usmash. I use this against marth, roy, and cloud that do this too much.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...limar-11-21-11-27.438657/page-3#post-21551928

come speak~