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Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

Rango the Mercenary

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I would actually like to go over Ike vs. Samus, having faced a noteworthy challenge from several players online.

On one hand, Ike beats her neutral cleanly. In addition to outranging her normal attacks, he can just jab right after her Jab 1 if they're both grounded.

On the other hand, Samus not only maintains strong control at long range, but also has very fast attacks up close. Her Uair seems to have a very large hitbox and can use it for juggling. While defense is one of Ike's priorities, she is not only a tether grabber, but can also break shields with Charge Shot.

Ike can use normals to neutralize Charge Shot, such as Bair. However, it requires strict timing. It is still, however, a solid landing option.

One of Samus' other strengths is off-stage. Much like Wii Fit Trainer, she has a number of options to counter edgeguarding - Ike's primary strength and arguably the best in the game. Zair for far-ranged, safe strikes, Fair for a multi-hit move which is safe on landing when blocked, and Charge Shot as a projectile option. All of these out-range most of Ike's moves, and her jump height makes it easier for her to go over his head to escape to a platform.

Both characters are very heavy, Samus being one point heavier than Ike. I feel Samus' major detriment in this matchup is landing a kill option. Charge Shot has to be, well, charged. Bair is strong, but not the strongest move, and FSmash is still not wholly reliable, as you're more likely to pop the sourspot. Meanwhile, Ike's Bair and recently-patched Fair will neutralize all of her options when spaced properly. However, Ike lacks the ability to properly hit Eruption on Samus due to her tether, effectively eliminating one of his core kill moves. Also, due to Samus' floatiness, she is one of the characters who cannot be Fair kill confirmed off of UThrow, as the combo will lose its effectiveness well before kill percents.

Off-stage, Samus has gimping options. However, her slow moving and floaty aerials, coupled with her large hitbox, also makes her a prime character to end with an Aether spike. Both characters have a Dair spike, Samus' being more reliable. Ike's walk-off Fair will kill Samus around the 90% margin, and less with rage. Samus does not have a powerful off-stage option outside of Charge Shot, but can utilizing gimping with Fairs.

I feel Samus' strengths in this matchup are her weight, her offstage game, her shieldbreaking Charge Shot, and the use of Grappling Beam both to Zair out of Ike's max range and to grab from afar. Her weaknesses being she loses heavily in neutral and she lacks an effective kill move or confirm, which can lead to dragging on the battle with Ike constantly building rage as a result of taking damage.

Also of note, stage picks. Samus gains the ability to use more juggles with Uair and Screw Attack on stages like Battlefield and Dream Land. However, unless I haven't seen it yet, she seems to lack effective landing options. While camping is an option for flat stages, like FD and DH, the Samus' I have faced tend to play highly aggressively.
 

DungeonMaster

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White_Pointer White_Pointer Could you post matches in the main forum? Z-air eats all of his projectiles, including f-air and it very specifically eats a rising f-air with the timings to land DA. I'm not saying you're going to land it everytime, but all you need to do is land it 1/4 times he f-airs you to be positive in balance.

Rango the Mercenary Rango the Mercenary I really enjoy fighting Ike. Z-air -> Dash attack is our neutral game with mixups to Super-missile -> Dash attack combo and retreating to the ledge with ledge rising f-airs, n-airs and z-air all of which once again, combo into dash attack and pretty much everything in that list got significant frame improvements with 1.1.5.
I think it's too early to tell but previously I rated Ike about even. I would actually rate it in our favor now, in abstraction.
 
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White_Pointer

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I'm having trouble DIing Bayo's combos in this new patch. I could do it pre-patch but can't seem to do it this patch. Has our faster fall speed made these combos harder to DI out of?

Also Mewtwos are saying that Samus is his best matchup now. What do you all think about that?
 
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KayJay

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White_Pointer White_Pointer Villager is nowhere near a bad MU, it's an annoying MU but since the Patch Samus might even have an advantage because FJ FF Z-air is now op against Villager (also against Corrin, ROB and presumably more MUs)
Our faster fall with 1.1.5 makes FJ FF Z-Air much better than before.

After the Patch there was a Match where I realized this, I lost a Stock early due to a stupid SD and got a bit outplayed in the second stock until 97% than I had to do something to still win the Match.
So I came up with this:
It totally nullifies his f-air and rocket spacing.
Also SH CS flys over the Rocket and hits Villager. Easy kill punish.
 

Bowserboy3

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Samus does not have a powerful off-stage option outside of Charge Shot, but can utilizing gimping with Fairs.
I would disagree there. I won't count Bair as it necessitates landing the sweetspot to get it's absurd power, but Nair is one of her quickest aerials, is very powerful, sends at a hard to recover angle, and is easy to use off stage (whereas Bair is harder to use off stage necessitating the said sweetspot).

Overall though, that post is very well written, and there is not much else I feel I could give opinions/contributions on. Nicely done.
 

Afro Smash

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Something that could do with exploring in the Corrin MU, Ive clanked her F smash with fair from the ledge twice, ledge play could be safer than i thought

Edit: Also I swear popping villagers balloons has become way easier recently, gotten 3 ko's from bombs popping them
 
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White_Pointer

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White_Pointer White_Pointer Villager is nowhere near a bad MU, it's an annoying MU but since the Patch Samus might even have an advantage because FJ FF Z-air is now op against Villager (also against Corrin, ROB and presumably more MUs)
Our faster fall with 1.1.5 makes FJ FF Z-Air much better than before.

After the Patch there was a Match where I realized this, I lost a Stock early due to a stupid SD and got a bit outplayed in the second stock until 97% than I had to do something to still win the Match.
So I came up with this:
It totally nullifies his f-air and rocket spacing.
Also SH CS flys over the Rocket and hits Villager. Easy kill punish.
That's good, and helpful. You were lucky that he mistimed the bowling ball fsmash when you were recovering though.

However, that strategy probably would not work on Battlefield or Dreamland as the low platforms would jank the zair a lot of the time. And in a best of 3 set a Villager is always going to take you to one of those stages.
 

KayJay

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That's good, and helpful. You were lucky that he mistimed the bowling ball fsmash when you were recovering though.
He was lucky before where I did a misinput turnaround CS instead of a normal CS that would have killed him.
Also it's almost impossible to correctly time against z-air recovery and if he charges then my homing missile would have punished him.

However, that strategy probably would not work on Battlefield or Dreamland as the low platforms would jank the zair a lot of the time. And in a best of 3 set a Villager is always going to take you to one of those stages.
It works on the center of the stage, also we are much better at controlling his landing options on BF and DL once he is in the air.
 
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White_Pointer

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He was lucky before where I did a misinput turnaround CS instead of a normal CS that would have killed him.
He was only on 77% at the time and a tree was in the process of coming up, close to centre stage. Even if it did hit him and not the tree, CS and rage are good but not that good :p But I do get your point.

It works on the center of the stage, also we are much better at controlling his landing options on BF and DL once he is in the air.
Zair can still get janked by the low platforms from centre stage.

Villager's playstyle is just stupid. The character is designed to force long, drawn out games. It took you well over 2 minutes to take that stock and ended the game with 30 seconds left despite your first stock SD. Whenever I play against a Villager (generally as my Yoshi, cause I still think the matchup is better for Yoshi) it almost always goes close to timing out.
 
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KayJay

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He was only on 77% at the time and a tree was in the process of coming up, close to centre stage. Even if it did hit him and not the tree, CS and rage are good but not that good :p But I do get your point.
It would have killed him even with perfect DI,
Villager dies in that position at 75% with an unstaled CS with 100% Rage. I had over 120% Rage. That's why I look out to never stale CS because I know all guaranteed kill % for every Matchup.


Villager's playstyle is just stupid. The character is designed to force long, drawn out games. It took you well over 2 minutes to take that stock and ended the game with 30 seconds left despite your first stock SD. Whenever I play against a Villager (generally as my Yoshi, cause I still think the matchup is better for Yoshi) it almost always goes close to timing out.
Just that it takes long doesn't mean that it's a bad MU, it honestly isn't.
 

DungeonMaster

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White_Pointer White_Pointer Villager is a really a trap character, he's the best in the game with traps. In many ways he's a "better" Samus from previous iterations of the game, he's built I feel around the mellee version of Samus, if you think about it for a while the parallels are very close.
That being said Samus really has some of the best tools for dealing with him. You can d-tilt his rocket trap approach. Z-air his hide-behind tree. Dash right though his rocket on startup and combo from there.
Samus doesn't fall fast and so we're not forced to contend with bowling ball simple edgeguards and we can mix up the timings with bombs, tether and a cover missile.

Really I think you should take my earlier advice and post some video, there's no shame in posting defeats, it's how we all learn. I went through a very bad phase of villager kicking my ass, now my main sparring partner doesn't even pull him out.
 

Hapajin

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I'm struggling to incorporate d-air into my aerial combos. Normally, I use it in a short hop on grounded opponents, but when I try it in an aerial string, I feel like my opponent is always too high or too low after an up-air for me to get in a proper position to d-air, so I usually follow up-airs with another one, b-air, f-air, or n-air. But I like the damage and set ups from grounding opponents with d-air.
Any suggestions to set it up easier? What are some basic combos or strings into d-air that I can practice?
 

DungeonMaster

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Hapajin said:
Any suggestions to set it up easier? What are some basic combos or strings into d-air that I can practice?
They're not combos, but they're flashy and fun strings. Despite what the counter says in training, D-air spike is a few frames off of true combo out of Up-air.
Your best chance for one is when you catch them about shoulder or knee height out of DA. It gives you the best time to work with in the air.
You can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er3eVCqVu80#t=171
Likewise N-air strings naturally to D-air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUrANmnrXwA#t=1855
Also @DanishButrCookies loves N-air to D-air strings. Check out any of his vids for tons of examples.
I am fond of this combo chain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUrANmnrXwA#t=4290
 
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Hapajin

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Thanks for the tips, helps a lot! Apologies for the off topic post, I meant to post in the combo and string thread
 

Vyrnx

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I had a rude awakening with Duck Hunt yesterday. I always sort of figured it was a poor MU for Samus, but I had never fought a really good Duck Hunt before. This guy was definitely the best player I have fought in a couple months and maybe ever.

But anyway, I think this MU is really, really bad. Before I fought this guy I had the perspective that, "oh, well Duck Hunt might do this, but we can do this, this, and this," but I'm not so sure. I won neutral maybe once, and got some good damage, but the vast majority of the game I was in disadvantage. Duck Hunt's advantage I thought was one of the worst in the game, but it was absolutely absurd and lasted forever against Samus. I tried to do basic stuff, like shield, since Duck Hunt supposedly struggles against shields, but everytime I got grounded long enough to shield there would be three projectiles plus DH running towards me--shield was a bad spot to be in. Plus, he had throw to can combos down.

As far as neutral everyone already knew Duck Hunt's was one of the strongest in the game, so I didn't see much hope there (projectiles, crazy roll/dodge data, size, mobility, etc), but his advantage state really took me by surprise.

I can't really explain very specific things happening in the MU, because it was ridiculously hopeless and chaotic after I lost neutral, which has never happened to me before. I had no clue what to do to reset, and without being able to reset, I could not compete in neutral, and therefore not get an advantage state where I could gimp him or that sort of thing. Projectiles do next to nothing in this MU and even when you think you have gotten back in neutral, Duck Hunt is really slippery because of dodge data, speed, etc, and he can instantly get out at least part of his wall game.

Clearly I have no MU experience at all, but I was wondering if anyone else does. I know all of us have fought pretty good Duck Hunt's, but this guy was insane/definitely a tourney goer so if anyone has fought a top one... I am kind of worried about this MU.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Vyrnx Vyrnx Sounds like you finally got a real taste of what a 45 frame projectile means vs. a 60 frame. :p
Yeah don't even bother with missiles as you're clearly realized. You're just setting up for a timing trap. You are just wasting frames and positioning. We have a slight buff now that the projectile hitboxes appear earlier, so you can get a clank better, but it's a terrible decision, there's almost no point to them in this matchup.
The jumping forward can setup is difficult to deal with but you must either SH zair backwards or SH nair but the most important piece of advice is: if he gains stage control, with a can trap, full jump air-dodge directly to the opposite side. It sounds campy, and irritating, with a ton of neutral resets but that's what you have to do vs full tilt projectile dominance. He wants to play spammy projectile wall to the extreme, you play "I can jump full across the stage in two jumps and you can't do squat about it - follow me with a real attack or we'll do this again." Can/disk/gunmen are all too slow in physical range+speed to reach you.
I approach with z-air into dash and from the air in a full jump, fast falling up-airs. SHAD into n-air and FJ Airdodge into FF D-air (as I show in the combo video) as a mixup. Use your jab, d-tilt it's way better than his.
 
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The_Woebegone_Jackal

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Ok so I need some genuine advice here. I took a loss yesterday that kept me out of the top 32 of a 120+ player tournament yesterday, in an MU that I'm still trying to figure out. This loss was to a Kirby, and incredibly common character in my region. I've been struggling with this MU for awhile but always seemed to at least fair well enough, but holding that L was an eyeopener. This thread says the MU is "Strong" and I am curious as to why.

Just to show you what kind of Kirbys we have to deal with here:


And yes, this is THE Triple R, arguably one of the best Kirbys in Melee.


When airborne I can deal with them well enough, z-air keeps them out and f-air/u-air beat the inevitable airdodges. Good Kirbys tend to never actually use all of their jumps in neutral, making it hard to guess when I should go in to start something off their landing. This makes getting long combos a bit difficult. Regardless of that, its not the main problem I'm having. The adaptation usually comes in the form of staying grounded and ducking, and his incredibly small hurtbox was difficult enough to deal with before that. Keeping him out is near impossible at this point, as the ducking not only negates z-air and missile spacing, it also removes falling u-air as a reliable starter. Even if you manage to get the u-air to tick, the Kirby can minimize the follow ups; d-tilt can miss, jab1 f-smash doesn't work at all (can jump out of the jab and airdodge), right to f-smash is unreliable, and up-b can straight up fail. At this point I'm sure you are thinking that d-tilt and downward f-tilt should help, and while they can, Kirby is primed for a perfect shield while ducking, and if they are currently moving if they read either move their roll-behind is fast enough to punish both (and more) easily.

The match inevitably boils down to having to reset to neutral constantly, with very little chance to get more than a few pot shots in while the Kirby can catch up fairly quickly just by being patient. This patient play lends a lot of time to get CS, but without setups I'm finding it hard to land. The best advice I've gotten so far was to take them the BF or DL, which helps immensely, but since our region plays with DSR I only truly get one shot at that.
 
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White_Pointer

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I'm kinda at a loss against good Kirby too. I've mostly given up on that matchup and switch to my secondary Yoshi for it. I'm sure it's manageable but I really don't want to need to deal with it with Samus. And if they ever get an inhale off and take your charge shot it's even more scary. So yeah, I'd also like advice on this MU because I tend to avoid it like the plague.
 

Afro Smash

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You can grab him out of crouch, but yeah I'd say the MU is even at best for us
 

Gypsy_Panic

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I'm not surewhat happened but apparently Mew-Two is an impossible matchup for me now. Maybe it's because it's been a while but every mew-two I've fought I've lost to. It just seems like the character is able to stuff anything i do without problem.

I haven't looked at the patch notes to see what exactly has changed but i do know mew-two did get buffed this patch. To what degree I'm not aware but it seems to be enough to give me a hard time.

Is anyone else experiencing this?
 

White_Pointer

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Mewtwo has been buffed several times actually. Apparently the Mewtwo discord say that Samus is actually his best matchup now.
 

Vyrnx

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Mewtwo has been buffed several times actually. Apparently the Mewtwo discord say that Samus is actually his best matchup now.
I heard one of the more well known Mewtwo players on the competitive impressions thread say he thinks Samus is one of Mewtwo's toughest MUs/a possible counter lol. We need more time to see what the buffs to both characters mean, but I would doubt that Samus is Mewtwo's best MU just because zair is a thing.
 
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Afro Smash

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Lol we're not his easiest MU, it was probably slightly in his favour after the aerials and speed buff, now it's a bit more in his favour wth the more recent speed buff as he can trap landings with grabs and up smash even better now, and follow his shadow balls to approach better too. His height weight and Zair keep the MU more than doable for us though.

We have a really good M2 main here in the UK, so if I get some games vs him i'll upload them here
 
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Gypsy_Panic

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Lol we're not his easiest MU, it was probably slightly in his favour after the aerials and speed buff, now it's a bit more in his favour wth the more recent speed buff as he can trap landings with grabs and up smash even better now, and follow his shadow balls to approach better too. His height weight and Zair keep the MU more than doable for us though.

We have a really good M2 main here in the UK, so if I get some games vs him i'll upload them here
I'd love that. I'm completely lost as how to approach mewtwo now. Seeing someone who's competent with Samus fend against a competent Mewtwo would be great.
 

Vyrnx

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Killed a Mewtwo at 120% with ftilt today, only had 70% rage and it wasn't at the edge lol.
 

apparently fuz

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Does anybody know much about the Samus vs. Pikachu MU? I feel like we literally can't do anything because QA messes us up.
 

Vyrnx

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Does anybody know much about the Samus vs. Pikachu MU? I feel like we literally can't do anything because QA messes us up.
Pikachu's size means that jab, ftilt, zair, fsmash, and falling uair will miss a lot. He can run under missiles, so don't use those--wouldn't really want to against a character with his speed anyway. Although if he gets super predictable with horizontal QA approaches, super missiles will hit him out of it (or CS if you can get it charged).

If Pikachu approaches with QA, hold shield. QA has enough endlag that you can probably avoid the followup grab. If Pikachu is trying to ground space with dtilt, or even if they are spacing with fair, Samus' dtilt can punish him. Dtilt is pretty useful in this MU because it will actually hit him and it's disjoint/range can give Pikachu trouble.

Neutral is really skewed in this MU, most Pikas will play bait and punish with autocancel aerials and then try to get us to use grab, missiles, or zair, all are heavily punishable. If you play patiently and try to force a QA approach, it is possible to punish QA on shield drop. At low percents (0-40ish) QA is unsafe on hit if they try to land behind and get an utilt chain going, so if the Pika is inexperienced and goes for it, it is 100% punishable with turnaround dtilt. Since nair has a lingering hitbox, it will actually beat QA but if the Pika baits/reads it then you will get punished. Dash attack is a good burst option and useful in this MU.

But disadvantage is where most of the match is spent. Pika is great at juggling and catching landings with QA, so always go to the ledge when you get juggled always. Neutral get up is probably the best option because fair can whiff against him, but watch out for his fsmash.

A lot of Pika's are used to fighting fast fallers so if they start utilting you, you might be able to jump out and land. If you get grabbed at low percents, take the damage and don't extend the combo by trying to uair or nair (lol) out. Mix up DI on uthrow, and at high percents Pika's falling fair to usmash is a guaranteed KO confirm on Samus, so I guess try to avoid fair lol... If you get knocked off stage try to stick to up b recoveries. In theory Pika is a great edge guarder but I'm not really so sure. If he hits you with dtilt or dair on stage then be ready to tech so you don't get jab locked, honestly his jab locks catch even the best players.

As for advantage make sure combos are tight so you don't get hit by f3 nair, if you hear the sound cue for Pika's down b during a combo, avoid it, and if you get him off stage, charge CS and don't go off stage, there's no reason. There won't be many opportunities for it anyway, but don't use up b at low percents--save it for kill percents. Pika is light and if he misspaces a move, up b OOS is one of your best bets for killing him. In general though Pika's landing options are really strong with QA, especially platform stages, so knocking him in the air with dtilt won't be enough like it can be against other characters. It's a really bad MU. Camp in shield at kill percents a lot to maybe exploit Pika's trouble killing(?). Probably our worst MU and Pika's best MU.
 
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apparently fuz

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Pikachu's size means that jab, ftilt, zair, fsmash, and falling uair will miss a lot. He can run under missiles, so don't use those--wouldn't really want to against a character with his speed anyway. Although if he gets super predictable with horizontal QA approaches, super missiles will hit him out of it (or CS if you can get it charged).

If Pikachu approaches with QA, hold shield. QA has enough endlag that you can probably avoid the followup grab. If Pikachu is trying to ground space with dtilt, or even if they are spacing with fair, Samus' dtilt can punish him. Dtilt is pretty useful in this MU because it will actually hit him and it's disjoint/range can give Pikachu trouble.

Neutral is really skewed in this MU, most Pikas will play bait and punish with autocancel aerials and then try to get us to use grab, missiles, or zair, all are heavily punishable. If you play patiently and try to force a QA approach, it is possible to punish QA on shield drop. At low percents (0-40ish) QA is unsafe on hit, so if the Pika is inexperienced and goes for it, it is 100% punishable with turnaround dtilt. Since nair has a lingering hitbox, it will actually beat QA but if the Pika baits/reads it then you will get punished. Dash attack is a good burst option and useful in this MU.

But disadvantage is where most of the match is spent. Pika is great at juggling and catching landings with QA, so always go to the ledge when you get juggled always. Neutral get up is probably the best option because fair can whiff against him, but watch out for his fsmash.

A lot of Pika's are used to fighting fast fallers so if they start utilting you, you might be able to jump out and land. If you get grabbed at low percents, take the damage and don't extend the combo by trying to uair or nair (lol) out. Mix up DI on uthrow, and at high percents Pika's falling fair to usmash is a guaranteed KO confirm on Samus, so I guess try to avoid fair lol... If you get knocked off stage try to stick to up b recoveries. In theory Pika is a great edge guarder but I'm not really so sure. If he hits you with dtilt or dair on stage then be ready to tech so you don't get jab locked, honestly his jab locks catch even the best players.

As for advantage make sure combos are tight so you don't get hit by f3 nair, if you hear the sound cue for Pika's down b during a combo, avoid it, and if you get him off stage, charge CS and don't go off stage, there's no reason. There won't be many opportunities for it anyway, but don't use up b at low percents--save it for kill percents. Pika is light and if he misspaces a move, up b OOS is one of your best bets for killing him. In general though Pika's landing options are really strong with QA, especially platform stages, so knocking him in the air with dtilt won't be enough like it can be against other characters. It's a really bad MU. Camp in shield at kill percents a lot to maybe exploit Pika's trouble killing(?). Probably our worst MU and Pika's best MU.
Thank you so much for this.
 

DungeonMaster

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I managed to get some significant playtime in this week, I'm still waiting to come across a crazy good Bayo or Cloud on for-glory. Still fighting swarms of Shieks, Rosa, ZSS and Fox, Yoshi, Mario.
The pattern I see is people may start as cloud or bayo, get creamed, and then pick their actual non-DLC main. I think their meta needs more time - or they're just not that common?

As for Bayo a couple of things I've noted:
We can punish heel slide mid-move with Up-B out of shield. It touches your shield at all, go for it, you will win.
We can actually punish witch twist with Up-B and even jump-up-air, I haven't lab-tested but I think it's guaranteed. I don't think it's safe on our shield.
I'm not sure about ABK punished with z-air. I think it depends on the DI they used post shield impact, but we can definitely hit her, and basically no one else in the cast can.
Bombs out prioritize basically all of her moves. In fact I've been investigating the priority of bombs recently, I think I haven't been using them to full effect.
 

Afro Smash

Smash Ace
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Fam you're lucky, literally every other character I face on FG is a Cloud
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
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xygonn
Fam you're lucky, literally every other character I face on FG is a Cloud
I've been getting ridiculous diversity on FG. Greninja, DK (a really good one that whooped me a few rounds), Lucina, WFT, and Duckhunt have all shown up recently that were all good. Such a fun play session.
 

Vyrnx

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
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639
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I got an insanely good sonic the other day, which is extremely rare on fg, played each other for over an hour
 

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 2, 2015
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wh1tepointer
What is everyone's feelings about the Peach matchup? I feel this is evenish, but her aerial movement is really hard to read and at least from my point of view, she's very difficult for us to actually challenge in the air, but that's where she's going to spend the majority of her time. I think that this may be one matchup where our homing missiles might actually be useful, if for no other reason than to keep her honest whenever she's floating around.
 

DungeonMaster

Smash Lord
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Nov 22, 2014
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Dalaeck
White_Pointer White_Pointer I find the really good peaches don't take to the "high" air much, they do this funny sort of dash dance near ground level weaving in and out. Kinda like wavedashing in melee. It's a pretty good bait game, but it's not super effective vs. Z-air and dash attack (or dash grab for that matter) which are our primary tools.
If they do take the high air, I agree homing missile actually works as deterrent. For some reason her hurtbox often dodges homing missiles when she's grounded or the peach bomber.
I feel it's evenish as well. although I've had a good record recently vs. the few peach mains I've come across since our buffs.
I quite like peach in general, it's a good fight.
 

Xygonn

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xygonn
Before air speed buffs this was about even, I feel we win this matchup now pretty handily. Peach can't get it.
 

Afro Smash

Smash Ace
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Made a new MU spread for 1.1.5, Xygonn if you wanna do another Survey thing soon that'd be cool

 

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 2, 2015
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wh1tepointer
- I'd most definitely NOT say that Ness, Wario, G&W and Jiggs are slightly in our favour. Those MUs are even at best IMO.
- Mario is more than a slight disadvantage. I'd put him on the disadvantage level. He's an incredibly hard matchup when played properly.
- I'd say Kirby is a pretty strong disadvantage for us honestly. If Kirby plays their cards right Samus has an awfully hard time landing blows at all, abd if he ever copies the charge shot it'll be even harder.
- I'd call the Yoshi MU slightly in our favour. I see this as very similar to the Luigi MU in all honesty, we can space and keep him out in pretty much the same ways.
- I think Cloud and Duck Hunt can potentially swap places. Cloud is manageable I think, still a slight disadvantage but it's possible to space him out. A well played Duck Hunt is next to impossible as we can't pressure with projectiles nor can we approach him.
- I still say Villager is a bad MU for us. Maybe not as bad as I first thought but still bad.

So, IMO:

Ness, Wario, G&W and Jiggs move down to the "Even" tier
Mario, Duck Hunt Duo and Kirby move down to the "Disadvantage" tier
Yoshi moves up to the "Slight Advantage" tier
Cloud moves up to the "Slight Disadvantage" tier
Villager moves down to the "Slight Disadvantage" tier
 
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