Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Afro Smash]

That was just my view btw not anything official, and you can make ur own here https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/ but I'll respond to some things:

It's definitely not possible to space Cloud out, his sword has huge reach and is disjointed, and he has good frame data, and has good air and ground speed, both of which become even better in Limit form (he actually has the best air speed in the game in Limit). Another important thing is that we cannot force an approach in this MU, so reading approach patterns etc. becomes less viable, and we usually have to approach in some capacity because of how threatening he becomes in Limit.

Yoshi I don't see being comparable to Luigi at all since Luigi is both slow on the ground and in the air and has much more linear approaches, whereas Yoshi with his ridiculous Air Speed, Up B momentum shifts and B Reversals is far less predictable and a lot more difficult to keep out. I'd possibly rate it as even but I think he's just a much better character than we are and everything comes to him much easier, also >Dair

Kirby is a bad match up for us in theory, however I'm yet to see it in practice, but yeah the potential of taking our CS could push it to slight disadvantage tier

 

[White_Pointer]

With Cloud, I used to think that MU was terribad for us, but after doing some training with a couple of Clouds I'm seeing the MU is not quite as dire as I thought it was. He's still got the advantage, don't get me wrong, but you can still space him with zairs, bombs and up b's. His disjoint is very hard to deal with yes but so is any disjoint.

Yoshi is generally over rated IMO, as someone who secondaries Yoshi. He's not as good as some popular belief is, he doesn't have tournament results, and he actually has a lot of trouble killing with no kill setups off grabs or anything of the sort. If Yoshi manages to get in and stay in, we're not going to have a good time, but you shouldn't be letting him do that.

Kirby's a bit of an odd matchup but this is the general trend I find - if the Kirby abuses crouches and lots of tilts, the matchup is terrible for us. If they don't, it's close to even. But good Kirbys SHOULD be abusing crouches, as can be seen in the vids The_Woebegone_Jackal posted earlier.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So I spent literally 5 hours straight yesterday on FG, which I haven't had a chance to do in many months ( incidentally not even 1 cloud or a bayonetta, random opponents, for 5 hours, no joke).

My major takehome: The change to F-air is very important for the mario, pika and yoshi matchups. Their basic pressure approach of a FJ descending fireball/jolt/egg is DEAD. We can intercept F-air it every time.
This was possible before, it's been mentioned in this thread earlier, but now it's way easier.
These characters don't recover high at the angles they used to be able to against us any more. Fair intercepts, first hitbox cancels the projectile, and continues to hit them. It was kind of a crapshoot before, it's solid now.
Forcing mario low changes this matchup considerably. F-air already was great at gimping him, the offstage pressure is very real now, I made one guy air-dodge to his death in raw fear after the 4th gimp in a row.
I would still say the matchup is in Mario's favor overall but that gap definitely got significantly smaller.

 

[Afro Smash]

We can't space him with Up B because his aerials a safe on shield, and his attacks are disjointed so he doesn't put his hurtbox on top of us, bombs are slow and he is fast and has huge range, and again he doesn't have to approach so he can just wait out bombs, and zair is obviously useful in every MU, but Cloud's are usually coming in from angles that Zair can't contest (FH Dair or FF Bair). We do have an advantage when he's offstage as Up Tilt bops his Up B and bombs can force him to AD past the ledge and use his Limit Up B, but it's bad onstage.

 

[White_Pointer]

Not all of his aerials are safe on shield. Nair certainly isn't. Neither is fair (though he shouldn't be using fair if you're grounded). Short hop up airs and dairs are a problem though.

 

[Vyrnx]

Technically fair is his only safe on shield aerial, though it is easy to power shield with practice. However, some of his other aerials are extremely close to safe on shield so I'm not sure if Samus specifically can punish moves like his bair. My guess is ftilt probably does, I need to check though.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@Trifroze pointed something out in another thread which just made my day. Aim for Pika's tail in hitstun. Since this is our worst matchup (my opnion, shared by others), this is useful information.
You can clearly see it with say an up-tilt at 50% and say a thin hitbox like n-air, the tail actually does extend his hurtbox, you really don't have to hit his body in hitstun.

 

[NamelessHunter]

I was just playing a Lucas on For Glory that made me want to punch a wall. Is pk freeze really not punishable from the edge or is it a case of lag making moves stupid? I swear I went for fair the moment that animation started, but he already had shield up. And of course pk fire is spammable because he can shield before SHAD nair hits. Please tell me this **** doesn't work in local play.

 

[DungeonMaster]

It's about a half second endlag (27 frames?) even our shield grab can theoretically punish it, I'm not entirely sure about the situation you're describing. You likely got lag juked or were simply tired. Happens.

 

[NamelessHunter]

It's about a half second endlag (27 frames?) even our shield grab can theoretically punish it, I'm not entirely sure about the situation you're describing. You likely got lag juked or were simply tired. Happens.

I was ledge camping because I needed a break from pk fire spam. He used pk freeze to try and hit me while just outside of zair range. I couldn't hit him with anything. I'm assuming lag, but it didn't seem any worse than normal (2-3 frames,) but I could be off.

Either way, I got really mad that it worked, so I was tilting hard. I normally don't bother.

Is there any generic advice for this match up. Nobody plays the character locally, so I don't really know what to do.

 

[White_Pointer]

Is there any generic advice for this match up. Nobody plays the character locally, so I don't really know what to do.

I used to think the matchup with Lucas and Ness was pretty terrible. It's still kind of tricky but after getting a lot more experience playing against decent players I'd say they are more than manageable. Things to look out for in the MU:

- Both Ness and Lucas have unusual air movement and disjointed aerials, making them hard to read and punish. Utilise your multi-hit aerials, or wait for them to hit your shield and punish
- They are both short, making it harder to hit them. Utilise your tilts, they are very important in these MUs
- Zair is your friend in these MUs. Use it. A lot. Our zair outranges Lucas' zair too, which pretty much nullifies him using it as a zoning tool
- Fight in centre stage as much as you can. Both Ness and Lucas have back throw kills so you want to mitigate this as an option as much as possible. Lucas has other kill options off throws too, up throw and down throw up air
- Charge your shot and DON'T USE IT. The mind games you can play with these guys by having a charge shot always ready to go can not be underestimated. You can bait out all kinds of reactions from them that you can take advantage of, especially psi magnets which you can punish with grabs and missiles (just be careful of Lucas' cause it has a hitbox on it). Then unleash the shot when they least expect you to
- Both PK fires stupidly clank with our full charge shot (in fact Ness' just outright beats it), so try not to waste it in this fashion
- If they use their Thunder 2 recoveries I find it's somewhat easier to 2 frame them when they grab the ledge due to the predictable time they will hit it. You can go off stage to edge guard if you want, charge shots, nairs and fairs work pretty well as long as you're quick enough, but landing a 2 frame up tilt on them is surprisingly effective. Lucas' recovery is better than Ness' though, as it goes further and can't be interrupted, plus he's also got the tether, so you may need to get a bit more creative if you want the edge guard

 

[White_Pointer]

This is my personal 1.1.5 matchup spread for Samus based on my experience as well as what others are saying in this forum. It's different to Afro's chart in a few areas but I'm not saying this is 100% the general consensus of everyone, this is just my opinion. You're welcome to disagree or question some of my placements. All characters in each tier have an equal weighting.

I've changed my previous beliefs about a couple of placements, and it doesn't have a "strong disadvantage" tier like Afro's has. I believe all matchups are winnable but those in the "disadvantage" tier are a real uphill struggle. I'm almost inclined to say that Kirby is close to our worst matchup in the game, it's getting to the point where I don't even attempt it anymore.

EDIT: Taken down to rethink and work on it some more.

 

[KayJay]

There will be a MU Chart based on the Discord Lab-team in the near future. (Only offline gameplay will count)

 

[Caedus]

I have a lot of trouble vs. My friend's Ryu. The biggest thing is I can't seem to keep him out. His light up tilt spam is particularly annoying. I've tried DIing up and up B'ing him, but this rarely catches him fully in it if at all, and clanks with his next up tilt more often than not. Plus if he's near the edge, DI'ing up will allow him easier access to spiking me. The only high level play I've seen of this matchup is the Hooded vs Danish for honor video on Mr. Danish's YouTube channel, and Danish is apparently good enough not to get caught in it. All advice is appreciated, and so are links to videos of this matchup at high level

 

[anthonyc2125]

I am a Samus main myself I would suggest not doing normal get up by the way because it can setup into kills for Ryu. I don't know the match up that much

 

[White_Pointer]

Ryu's not too bad for us honestly. We have a lot of multi-hit aerials that really nullify the threat of his focus attack - up air, up b, forward air and even zair are all multi-hit and beat out focus attack. If the Ryu keeps doing focus attacks, keep punishing him. A lot of Ryus I find have a habit of landing with focus attacks and you can really abuse this. If he catches on and starts using it less, then you can move in and punish more effectively without the threat of being focused.

If you get caught in his up tilt strings, SDI up and away then jump out as soon as you can. Alternatively you can SDI up and in, which will force the Ryu to actually turn around to continue the string. Don't try to immediately counter attack him out of this, just get yourself out of the string, reset to neutral, and then think about your options.

 

[DungeonMaster]

C Caedus like White_Pointer said you want to SDI them, i.e roll or rock your directional control stick rapidly. Samus is actually very good at escaping them, all floaties have an easier time than fast fallers. It depends a bit on how they catch you but rocking rapidly above and away is generally best. SDI in this game takes a lot of practice, quick fingers and good reflexes. It's not something you pick up overnight but it's one of Samus' strong suits (pun intended).

 

[White_Pointer]

I ran into one of my Achilles heals again in a recent tourney - Mario. I honestly don't know how to approach this matchup properly. Mario played well is a nightmare for me. He seems too mobile, too fast, too many options and too good frame data for Samus to deal with him. Average Marios I can wall out, but good Marios I can't, they always find a way in and rek me. And this was a guy I know I can beat because I took game 1 off his main, then he switched to Mario and I couldn't keep pace. You'll notice above that I ranked Mario as a solid disadvantage for us, I don't think the matchup is favourable at all. But I'd really like some assistance in trying to figure the MU out.

 

[Caedus]

I have no problem with Ryu's focus attacks. I love it when he tries to land against me. But as for the SDI up+in/away, when I get a chance to jump out of his up tilt spam, he more often than not catches me out of my jump with his next up tilt

 

[White_Pointer]

He shouldn't be. The uptilt's hitbox isn't that big. You're probably trying to jump too early before you've SDI'd out properly.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Some matchup tidbits I've collected. Maybe only a handful of things people who read through this thread avidly may not know but it's good to have video I think.
The mario stuff I find particularly useful since I consistently see him as a counter pick. I have a lot of kills and wins now from the down-angled f-smash into his d-air. Really catches people off-guard and can turn a match.

 

[Caedus]

He shouldn't be. The uptilt's hitbox isn't that big. You're probably trying to jump too early before you've SDI'd out properly.

So I shouldn't be spamming jump while SDIing up?

 

[Afro Smash]

So I shouldn't be spamming jump while SDIing up?

No that's a surefire way to get hit out of your jump

 

[Funkermonster]

Not sure if this is the correct thread to post this in, but the Mega Man boards are discussing the Samus matchup this week, and I for one would love to hear your guys' input on it. Click on Proto Man here and his minions to bring you there.



Let us see which of us has the better Arm Cannon!

 

[Crystanium]

Given that Samus is meant to space and run off, I'd say Samus is better than Mega Man in this match-up. Mega Man is forced to approach. His projectiles vary, but his metal saw can be caught, his bomb can be rubbed back onto him or easily shielded, and his leaf shield doesn't allow other specials from what I remember. I like Mega Man's dash and his grabs are faster, but I don't know.

 

[Funkermonster]

By taking Mega's Metal Blade, you're actually playing into his hands: You lose access to all your normal attacks, we still have 3 projectiles we can use while you only have the charge shot (Lemons > Missiles and Bombs), with lemon pressure disallowing room to charge that. Unless he's offstage, you can't really do much with the Blade itself either, as it can just be shot out of the air and he gets to make another one.

If you try to give back or shield the Crash Bomber, you're still playing into his hands because that's the move's purpose: Forcing a reaction out of you via a defensive move or rushdown, and he gets to punish you for both of those actions as long as he reads your decision. Not the best move ever made, but its good at what it does.

 

[Crystanium]

What a miserable night. Everyone I fight on FG just wrecks my Samus. It's like I haven't improved. Oi stood no chance against Ryu and was two-stocked by a Bowser. I just don't know how to improve. No one else is fun to play as.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@Ungeist how many 1v1 have you played so far? Same question but exclusively Samus?
I tend to tear through FG like a hot knife through butter, it's only 1 in maybe 50 people who give me real problems. Tournament in-person at super high level I can't speak with authority, but FG damn, I'm an expert.

Can you post replays? Do you analyze your loses?

 

[Crystanium]

I honestly only get about two or three hours of game play every day. I have reviewed my loses before, but I need to be consistent on that. I have used Mario recently. As basic as he feels, I've found him to be fun to use, especially after watching him take down a Rosalina. The player's name is Rice. Anyway, I know I can improve. It can be frustrating if I can see what my opponent is doing, but I'm not quick enough to counter.

I could post up replays, but my brother is the one who does that and he uses the Miiverse to do it. Aside fro that, I mainly use Samus, but that night I started off with Mario and if I lost with him, I'd say, "The Demon wants to play." (Ungeist is German for "demon".) I'd perform better, but I was getting most losses.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@Ungeist 3-4 hours a *day* is a LOT. Understand I'm trying to be helpful but if you don't have any video and don't answer my questions it's difficult for me to provide constructive help.
This is also the matchup thread, where we discuss very specific elements, it's not the best place.
Better would be for you to post some video in the gameplay thread and we go from there to help you improve.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I don't know about Wario being an even matchup. Wario's main flaw as a character is that he has a bad matchup spread, and this is no exception. Samus can safely tether Wario out of Bike, and otherwise he has no approach plus no projectile. This allows her to camp Wario out all day. Wario basically cannot reach Samus and it's not like he can kill Samus easily due to her high weight. All in all a very unthreating matchup

 

[Crystanium]

So from my Pikachu match, I noticed Pikachu will SH to jolt in order for you to put up your shield so he can grab you. Quck attack is a safe option for Pikachu because he might hit and run. Z-air isn't easy to utilize, but it is possible. Samus' projectiles will stop Pikachu's jolt, and a charged CS will eat it. Place a bomb in front of you to allow to charge your CS. Pikachu might respond by jumping over, allowing you to z-air, u-air, or n-air. Don't try to land on Pikachu with a u-air, unless you SH over and use u-air. When Pikachu uses jolt or quick attack, he's vulnerable.

 

[meleebrawler]

Given that Samus is meant to space and run off, I'd say Samus is better than Mega Man in this match-up. Mega Man is forced to approach. His projectiles vary, but his metal saw can be caught, his bomb can be rubbed back onto him or easily shielded, and his leaf shield doesn't allow other specials from what I remember. I like Mega Man's dash and his grabs are faster, but I don't know.

The matchup is even or close to it, but very momentum-based. If Samus can get some solid hits early on and raise Megaman's damage enough to knock him away, consistent Charge Shots will make it difficult for him to do much without considerable risk, but if not then Megaman and his Mega Buster won't have much trouble stuffing Samus's options.

 

[Crystanium]

meleebrawler Knowing that most of Mega Man's projectiles are short-ranged, the use of z-air and proper spacing can give Samus the edge. Even Mega Buster has a limited ranged and requires charging, leaving Mega Man open. I'd say stages with platforms and especially Duck Hunt will give Samus the advantage.

 

[meleebrawler]

meleebrawler Knowing that most of Mega Man's projectiles are short-ranged, the use of z-air and proper spacing can give Samus the edge. Even Mega Buster has a limited ranged and requires charging, leaving Mega Man open. I'd say stages with platforms and especially Duck Hunt will give Samus the advantage.

Yes zair is good and outranges Mega Buster by a bit (though I don't understand what you mean by charging, if it's his fsmash no Mega Man uses that except to occasionally edgeguard and catch landings), but it alone won't keep him out forever. Without the threat of a Charge Shot blowing through his approach tools, Rock can just patiently shield the grapple beams and walk/jump n' shoot everything Samus can throw at him.

 

[Crystanium]

meleebrawler Due to the high use of z-air, the probabilty of hitting MM is also high. No Samus should enter battle without charging CS. But as I said before, stages with platforms or Duck Hunt should give Samus the advantage. Due to my limited matches against MM, though, I'm not sure who has better aerials.

 

[Xygonn]

LPT vs pika at low to mid percent. If you crouch cancel thunder jolt, you can dtilt pika for free if they like to use thunder jolt -> grab. I take that trade every time. If they are too fast you can actually cancel the jolt and hit them with the dtilt at the same time. It's an extremely narrow window for them to grab you in the jolt hitstun.

 

[KirbyFan20]

What is the best way to DI Samus' down throw to f-air combo?

 

[Crystanium]

What is the best way to DI Samus' down throw to f-air combo?

That's for you to find out. I don't fight Samus' to have an idea.

 

[Caedus]

What is the best way to DI Samus' down throw to f-air combo?

DI away and up. It's still pretty likely that she can get you with the fair though if she dashes before she jumps