Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

So we still lose like all the matchups right?

 

[Xygonn]

So we still lose like all the matchups right?

Depends on who you ask. The consensus is that we lose:

Villager

Dr. Mario

G&W

Kirby

Mii Brawler

ROB

Metaknight

Diddy

Greninja

Olimar

Captain Falcon

Yoshi

Falco

Megaman

Rosalina

Sonic

ZSS

Sheik

Mario

Fox

Pikachu

The rest are even or positive.

 

[JAZZ_]

Depends on who you ask. The consensus is that we lose:

Villager

Dr. Mario

G&W

Kirby

Mii Brawler

ROB

Metaknight

Diddy

Greninja

Olimar

Captain Falcon

Yoshi

Falco

Megaman

Rosalina

Sonic

ZSS

Sheik

Mario

Fox

Pikachu

The rest are even or positive.

I wanna say Captain Falcon is more even than a loss. Lately Ive been able to not only hold my own against a Falcon, but even destroying a few, the fact he gets combo'd heavily works well for us and jab 1 and bombs keep his approach vectors off balance. Aside from maybe megaman I agree with the rest of your list here.

 

[Rawberry]

Seems a bit harsh to say a definitely loss - are we assuming that would be the case if the players have identical skill?

I'm not fighting the best players ever on for glory, and I'm no great SSB4 player myself but from my perspective I agree that most of the chars in that list can be very tough though I've not had any problems versus Captain Falcon or Megaman so far - I'm actually grateful when I see a falcon really.

I discovered how good people can be with Mr G&W the other day though, was a big shock! It was my best learning experience on SSB4 so far though - first match got thrashed 2-0, 2nd I got him once and lost 2-1 and on the third match I beat him with very low % on 2nd life :-D he left after that...

Maybe a Captain Falcon at this level would give me just as much of a shock...

 

[Afro Smash]

I know its only a day but anyone have impressions on how we match up with the new DLC?

 

[Xygonn]

I know its only a day but anyone have impressions on how we match up with the new DLC?

We beat corrin. Bayo doesn't ask for our consent.

 

[FlAlex]

We beat corrin. Bayo doesn't ask for our consent.

what is it about bayo that she has on Samus? Im watching some gameplay of her and I don't see how she can dominate Samus with her Zair, CS, and gimping ability.

 

[JAZZ_]

what is it about bayo that she has on Samus? Im watching some gameplay of her and I don't see how she can dominate Samus with her Zair, CS, and gimping ability.

Bayo is deceptively fast and able to combo us really hard. She has less endlag on her smashes then you might think and that darn teleport counter thing puts us in a combo pickle. The angle of her nuetral special coupled with the fact it makes you flinch beats zair. I think once we play more against her will find the weaknesses. But with these two characters its seems to me like Sakurai threw balance out the window. As if to subtly jab at the community for turning his party game into a competitive 1v1. But thats just me.

 

[FlAlex]

Bayo is deceptively fast and able to combo us really hard. She has less endlag on her smashes then you might think and that darn teleport counter thing puts us in a combo pickle. The angle of her nuetral special coupled with the fact it makes you flinch beats zair. I think once we play more against her will find the weaknesses. But with these two characters its seems to me like Sakurai threw balance out the window. As if to subtly jab at the community for turning his party game into a competitive 1v1. But thats just me.

I haven't played the game since this patch came out, but after watching some matches and reading the Bae boards, I have to agree that Bae is a hard counter to space bae, for the reasons you listed. Well, that, and her recovery appears to be pretty good (being able to up-special>AirJump>up-special is phenomenal). How do we beat her pistol spam? I heard you can charge it and cancel it at any time, so SHAD isn't an option. We cannot grab her, because if we miss, she'll Smash us, but if we try any attack, she can witch-time us and then Smash us.

Looks like I'm leaving at the perfect time....

One last thing: Can CS/Zair be Witch-timed and then followed up with a killing blow?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Give the Bayo matchup time, she has very big punish windows, I don't see it being problematic at all in the long term.

 

[KayJay]

Bayonetta is hard to judge,
so far I found out that our Z-Air is a No-Go, she can counter it from the distance. Also Charge Shots/Missiles can be countered if you are near her. Shoting from the distance is safe.
Good news is whenever she shots via neutral B all you have to do is duck under the shots and when you see her ending animation Dash grab her <- it's guaranteed. She may have good range with her recovery options, but we can gimp her pretty good.

I have a feeling that Bayonetta's neutral game isn't as good as it may look, we can punish many approaches from her even with OoS U-Smash which kills her at like 109% (good DI) without Rage. She is tall so U-Smash is reliable against her.

 

[Rawberry]

I'm no top player but I spent a good hour fighting against what seemed like a good Bayo player last night (judging by 'general' ability and appropriate use of character abilities + the few I fought earlier on were super easy to beat) I didn't find it that tough of a match up (won 70-80%) after working out how many hits were in her neutral combo and cursing her teleport slow-thing, but ofc it's early days so people have a lot of room to get better with her (but then so do I with Samus). I kept as far away as possible to avoid her pistol (which angles up so as has already been said you can duck under it) and once you gauge the range on her slide that's pretty punishable. You REALLY do not want to get hit by her smash. I didn't find it hitting me often but when it did it was nailing me at low percents (80s). Because of it's range and timing my first impression was that it's easy to dodge while getting close enough to punish, but please take all this with a pinch of salt since this is just based on an hour of FG. Agreed on zair - in fact unless I was underneath her I just wanted to get the hell back down to the ground/edge fast because her air combos are pretty damn nasty!

I fought against Corrin much less so I'm not quite sure what to think yet, *seemed* pretty zair-able and I had no trouble at range. Would love to hear what other people think of Corrin (and Bayo ofc!).

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Samus matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[_gold_]

Any tips against Yoshi matchups? I find them extremely difficult.

 

[KayJay]

Any tips against Yoshi matchups? I find them extremely difficult.

Punish F-Air with OoS D-Tilt.
Punish N-Air with OoS Up B.
Punish his SH up B approach by dashing underneath the egg and hit him with SH U-Air.

I like the Yoshi Matchup thanks to the extensive offline experience against Slice.

 

[JAZZ_]

Punish F-Air with OoS D-Tilt.
Punish N-Air with OoS Up B.
Punish his SH up B approach by dashing underneath the egg and hit him with SH U-Air.

I like the Yoshi Matchup thanks to the extensive offline experience against Slice.

all great advice. I hate Yoshi, but since you dont see many of them online its a rusty matchup for me.

 

[Afro Smash]

Anyone had experience vs the buffed fire emblem chars? I can see Roy being difficult and marth/lucina being slightly in their favour now

 

[Nova Omega]

Aside from the obvious edge guard how do we effectivly deal with cloud?

 

[JAZZ_]

Anyone had experience vs the buffed fire emblem chars? I can see Roy being difficult and marth/lucina being slightly in their favour now

My friends marth is always difficult. Now its still a nightmare, especially when he edgeguards against me, for some reason dolphin slash will knock us out of screwattack so recovering low is still not a great option. The dangers of marths new frame data doesnt change our matchup too much, given that trading with marth in the air was never a great idea. But im no expert

 

[Afro Smash]

Aside from the obvious edge guard how do we effectivly deal with cloud?

@Seniks

 

[Rawberry]

I hate fighting cloud but I made some decent progress against one which initially dominated me the other night on FG - over the course of 6 matches I went from (stock) 0-2, then 3x 1-2 to 2-0 twice in a row at which point he left and I took a deeeeeep breath. My biggest problem was being juggled/edge guarded, if I did anything to get back onto the ledge (such as fair) he'd just deck me from a distance, or shield and grab/up smash, so I resorted to jumping away from the ledge with either zair, CS or a plain old jump, risking the descent - but with bombs and air dodge that was working a lot better for me. I resorted to a lot of run away tactics - turn around grab, CS, generally just leaving a lot of bombs and firing a lot of missiles while trying to get a sh nair in to avoid the long low blows. Hope that helps someone but in reality I'd be happy to get some advice on this match up too!

BTW since my previous post I now HATE fighting Corrin, that damn range makes it so hard to get back on the ledge since zair is useless against it... anyone got any ideas on that one?

 

[KayJay]

Abuse the fact that Corrin runs even slightly slower than Samus. You can Z-Air Corrin allday long and make him/her approach you.

 

[Xygonn]

Abuse the fact that Corrin runs even slightly slower than Samus. You can Z-Air Corrin allday long and make him/her approach you.

Yeah, this is basically huge. Anyone slower than us we can actually zone out. Abuse zair and bombs, even missiles if you get breathing room. Corrin's projectile is easy to chew through with CS so they can't just sit back with it. Also, you won't get countered with the far hits of zair.

If you are having trouble spacing zair on corrin, just push back from the ledge more. I'm not sure what your are talking about Rawberry but zair is longer than side b and smash attack. You can do other stuff too to getup. I actually think the ledge is an advantageous position for samus because we have so many options.

 

[Rawberry]

Thanks KayJay , I did try more zairs against Corrin last night and it was very helpful Xygonn what I meant was when she's edge guarding I cant jump up against the ledge to zair her because of her long forward smash hitting me if I do anything other than roll onto or jump away from the ledge. Could I please ask what "other stuff" I could use to get up against her? I have no trouble with her projectile, as you say she gets a free CS in the face almost every time she fires it, it's mostly her low (side + down) attacks that are nailing me!

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks KayJay , I did try more zairs against Corrin last night and it was very helpful Xygonn what I meant was when she's edge guarding I cant jump up against the ledge to zair her because of her long forward smash hitting me if I do anything other than roll onto or jump away from the ledge. Could I please ask what "other stuff" I could use to get up against her? I have no trouble with her projectile, as you say she gets a free CS in the face almost every time she fires it, it's mostly her low (side + down) attacks that are nailing me!

when you ledge drop are you dropping down or away? If you drop away and zair you can outrange fsmash. If she comes in tighter than that, you can release into fair (you have your autocanceled fair from ledge release pretty solid?). Tighter than that, you can do it into uair. If she goes really fast on reading your ledge release, ledge release into dj air dodge, then hit her with nair, or uair to screw attack.

You objective is to be such a nuisance at the ledge they wait outside of zair range and you can regular getup safely.

 

[KayJay]

If this works all the time than this matchup is really nice.
U-Smash kills her at ~109% guaranteed without rage, she is so tall that U-Smash always connects and if she blocks U-Smash then I don't think we will get punished hard.
Medium risk, huge reward.

 

[JAZZ_]

If this works all the time than this matchup is really nice.
U-Smash kills her at ~109% guaranteed without rage, she is so tall that U-Smash always connects and if she blocks U-Smash then I don't think we will get punished hard.
Medium risk, huge reward.

Ive found that all her smashes will clank with even the most minor of attacks. I think as more of us fight her will find more oppurtunities to exploit. Good find though, its nice to have upsmash options.

 

[Nova Omega]

Aside from the obvious edge guard how do we effectivly deal with cloud?

Bump

So far the only progress ive made is with very patient zoning

 

[Jackal Eire]

Who can steer me towards the light regarding pikachu and yoshi? 2 matchups I seem to always struggle with and after getting my ass handed to me recently on anthers by these two I think I need help
I feel like against pikachu I have to be thinking about 15 steps ahead and while im trying to find a pattern or something to exploit Im suddenly at stupid high percents and clinging on for dear life. I generally have to come from behind because if it's a matchup I'm not confident in I tend to sit back and look for something to punish, that strategy is obviously flawed against better players...
As for Yoshi he all ways seems to have more range on his attacks than I expect, mostly having trouble ending the stock racking up damage doesn't seem too difficult.
Thanks for any help guys!

 

[Jackal Eire]

Bump

So far the only progress ive made is with very patient zoning

Patience for me is key. Not trying to force punishes and knowing when you've reacted too late and pulling back. He's a pain for sure. Also be careful spacing that bar, correct me if I'm wrong but I think cloud fsmashes outrange our bar even perfectly spaced... Probably due to swords lack of hurtboxes.

 

[Xygonn]

Who can steer me towards the light regarding pikachu and yoshi? 2 matchups I seem to always struggle with and after getting my *** handed to me recently on anthers by these two I think I need help
I feel like against pikachu I have to be thinking about 15 steps ahead and while im trying to find a pattern or something to exploit Im suddenly at stupid high percents and clinging on for dear life. I generally have to come from behind because if it's a matchup I'm not confident in I tend to sit back and look for something to punish, that strategy is obviously flawed against better players...
As for Yoshi he all ways seems to have more range on his attacks than I expect, mostly having trouble ending the stock racking up damage doesn't seem too difficult.
Thanks for any help guys!

Against pika you need to have cs and only use it to punish. Never in neutral, only in a string if it kills. Cs kills thunderjolt approaches. Upb oos is key in the mu too. Pika is light and has tight hurt boxes to his hitboxes.

Yoshi you can punish as he gets back on stage with bombs. Screw attack beats yoshi downb with side disjoint. Turnaround dtilt oos on cross up dash attack.

 

[JAZZ_]

Also for pika bombing around your person flubs up his up b approaches as well as give you sweet chip damage. Thats all i know to be useful in that, Xygonn covered the rest.

 

[KayJay]

Bayonetta may have a very hard time against us, if you hold the analogstick straight up than her Up B to Side B or Up B to DJ F-Air combos don't connect on us, not even at 25%. We can easily punish her with D-Air / B-Air / U-Air / Up B after she missed.

Update: Bayonetta basically loses a Stock against us if she is at around 109% and trys to hit us with her Aireal down-angled Side B. All we have to do is to simply block it, Bayonetta will have huge landing lag afterwards, it doesn't matter if she does a Double Jump or another Aireal Attack before landing. Just follow her underneath and punish her landing with an unblockable U-Smash kill.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bayonetta may have a very hard time against us, if you hold the analogstick straight up than her Up B to Side B or Up B to DJ F-Air combos don't connect on us, not even at 25%. We can easily punish her with D-Air / B-Air / U-Air / Up B after she missed.

Update: Bayonetta basically loses a Stock against us if she is at around 109% and trys to hit us with her Aireal down-angled Side B. All we have to do is to simply block it, Bayonetta will have huge landing lag afterwards, it doesn't matter if she does a Double Jump or another Aireal Attack before landing. Just follow her underneath and punish her landing with an unblockable U-Smash kill.

Er, she can do another dive kick if the first one lands, shield or no. So she can just dive-kick away if it's blocked. A Charge Shot could maybe still work in this case.

 

[KayJay]

Er, she can do another dive kick if the first one lands, shield or no. So she can just dive-kick away if it's blocked. A Charge Shot could maybe still work in this case.

She will still have the landing lag and CS will do the job, also the fact that we escape her combos from low to high % is a big deal.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

She will still have the landing lag and CS will do the job, also the fact that we escape her combos from low to high % is a big deal.

Haven't played this matchup yet, though I haven't played Samus in a while, I'll play some For Glory I guess, I'm sure I'll run into a Bayonetta so I can report back my discoveries...though FG isn't the ideal place to do so, it's my only always available option.

 

[White_Pointer]

Punish F-Air with OoS D-Tilt.
Punish N-Air with OoS Up B.
Punish his SH up B approach by dashing underneath the egg and hit him with SH U-Air.

I like the Yoshi Matchup thanks to the extensive offline experience against Slice.

I actually believe the matchup is at least even for Samus, if not slightly in her favour. That may be due to the fact I secondary Yoshi so know the character pretty well, but still, I like the matchup.

 

[Jackal Eire]

Against pika you need to have cs and only use it to punish. Never in neutral, only in a string if it kills. Cs kills thunderjolt approaches. Upb oos is key in the mu too. Pika is light and has tight hurt boxes to his hitboxes.

Yoshi you can punish as he gets back on stage with bombs. Screw attack beats yoshi downb with side disjoint. Turnaround dtilt oos on cross up dash attack.

Thanks for the advice! Bomb won't cancel his super armour double jump will it? Or is it to interrupt an attempted up b to the ledge?

Played Slice on FG a few months back, got so bodied I looked him up afterwards and was like "oh right it's because he really knows what he's doing..."

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks for the advice! Bomb won't cancel his super armour double jump will it? Or is it to interrupt an attempted up b to the ledge?

Played Slice on FG a few months back, got so bodied I looked him up afterwards and was like "oh right it's because he really knows what he's doing..."

Won't cancel jump but you can catch upb onto ledge or onto stage. I actually like to put it on stage. You can catch high recoveries too, and it cancels downb if you use it to cover yourself you can pretty safely shield downb and let bomb catch yoshi then upb oos.

 

[Jackal Eire]

One last thing guys...from what I can tell bf/dreamland are our best stages, but is there any character you won't take there? Or do you always pick or counter pick one of those stages regardless of the opponent? I took cloud there on a counter pick a while ago and by god the amount of uairs I constantly plummeted into...