Samus Discussion

[Parasite eveNZ]

Oldies ae sick tech

 

[Yobolight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5XDlB2yrgg

Looks like Jaime is a big fan of the planking I was discussing a couples months ago.

 

[Cobrevolution]

(i wrote like 14 paragraphs initially then hit back in firefox, so i had to rewrite it all...kill me...)

these are things i've been working on recently or things i want to work on that i would like feedback on and thoughts on. specific questions regarding matchups/edgeguarding is present in the second half of the post.

1. Ledge Canceled upb's on DL: i've been trying to ledge cancel my upb's on DL's plats. from the middle of the stage, if you use a grounded upb, you can reach the left or right platform's (depending on if you started slight left or slight right) furthest edge. i want to be able to ledge cancel these in the event that i am left vulnerable, so that i will get my jump back. if i have to adjust to my opponent's DI, i don't see it as being possible. i would also like to be able to ledgehop upb and ledge cancel it, but i haven't given it any practice, really.

2. Pivot Edgehog: steve said characters have multiple distances from which they can pivot off the stage. i've found samus's spot to be in front of the flowers on DL, above the middle post of the fence, with her arm cannon jutting out past the edge of the platform. i've landed a couple pivot off bairs, but i'm really trying to explore the potential for edgehogging. perhaps against a low recovering fox, i can pivot off and use her floatiness to keep me there for those extra few frames, then ff and grab the ledge, thus reducing the potential for fox's upb to hit me. i could, of course, dair, but this might prove useful as well. or perhaps against a mario/luigi?

3. Dash Platdrop/Drop Cancel: not necessarily a samus trick, but because i want to play more peach's against falcons and perhaps foxes, i feel this is a required technique. too often i just dash then shield then tilt it. i'd like to be able to pull off dash platdrop dairs with consistency, and want to know if there's any practice technique that might help me. with regard to drop cancel, i wind up grabbing way too often, and on the rare instances i do actually get the drop cancel, i miss the zcancel afterward. again, any tips on how to improve at this are appreciated.

4. Bomb Combos: i've been using samus's bomb as a spacing tool, such as when the opponent respawns, i may jump and plant one to avoid them coming to that spot on the stage. or while recovering, ledgehop to bomb, to drastically minimize her hurtbox. i am not sure how vulnerable this leaves her, but it seems like it's an alright idea. on the offensive end, though, i tend to only use them in edgeguarding situations. i am curious as to if they actually combo into anything, how to tell which way the opponent will be knocked back, and what percents are best to try to land bomb combos.

5. High Angled FSmash: i don't know at what percents this will kill and when i should be trying for it or its reverse over a bair or reverse bair. i also do not know whether i should be spacing/shield pressuring with the high angle over the normal one, or even the low one in the event i am facing kirby or puff. i know this was brought up a few months back, but is it really that much better than bair?

6. Dair Stuff: i have gotten pretty decent at ff dairs and non-ff dairs off the stage, but i need to be able to subconsciously pull off sh dairs and sh dairs out of shield. too often i wind up full hopping in both situations. it's really just ****ing up inputs on my behalf, but if there are tips, again, i'd like to hear them. additionally, comboing out of dair is tricky. i could nair, bair, or at lower percents fsmash, but i've been wondering when usmash -> bair or dair will work. i get them sometimes, and occasionally i go for the usmash but the opponent techs and all the hits miss or i get the hit/s and they get out of stun too fast. really, dair -> usmash -> dair spike is one of my favorite things to do, and i want to be able to land it more often. is it heavy-specific?

7. Fair Stuff: the problem i have with fair, besides its awful priority/hitbox, is that i find myself being punished even when the ****ing thing hits. do i need to perform more retreating fairs as opposed to advancing ones? should i be going for more of the first and second hit to connect, or the last one? do all the hits have different knockback? when is reverse fair a viable option? is it too risky? should i bair instead?

8. Tech Chasing on Platforms: too often i find my certain death tech chases botched because the opponent got their shield up in time. is there a way to practice getting that dair to be there when their tech invincibility vanishes?

9. Grounded Shieldbreaks: i know her two shieldbreaks. the easier to perform dair -> charge shot -> hi fsmash and the harder charge shot -> hi fsmash -> hi fsmash -> jab. i also know that a grounded upb will not break a shield on a platform, but an aerial one will. however, i have noticed that her two-hit dsmash drastically reduces the opponent's shield. what i'm talking about is when you're barely in front of your opponent and the first hit of the dsmash is a reverse, and the rear one connects as well. will a reverse nair or rear end hit of dair or, if you're lucky, bair/reverse bair, followed by the two hit dsmash, break the shield? if you land one of the aforementioned hits, wait a moment, then reverse dsmash, will it do more, because the shield will drain a bit in the time of the hitsun?

10. Recovering: i have gotten into the habit of jumping first and then bombing when i am thrown near the ledge, because it looks and feels like second jump sweetspotting will just not be enough. should i just try more often to get that second jump sweetspot? or should i fair, then jump halfway back, and then commence bombing? ideally i want to avoid all of my opponent's moves and maybe even get a counter edgeguard.

11. Ftilt: apparently, it's a good move. should i space with it more? i've noticed jab -> ftilt -> fsmash will work on aggressive players, but eh. kind of a pain.

12. Options on the Ledge: tonight i tried to link together as many ledge canceled fairs as i can. i got four. i don't think this is really that great of an option though - fair is such **** vs something like falcon fsmash, especially when over 100%. her slow get up and slow get up attack are both awful, and her slow roll is laughable. her sluggish jump makes it very hard. i've been trying to maybe ledgehop upb onto the top platform, then fall through, or go back to the ledge, or something like that.

13. How to Deal with Under-Platform Campers: i've noticed that a lot of players, while samus is airborne, will sit below the plats on DL and wait to get a grab. i've been trying to float in and get a bair that will reach the end of the stage and if i'm lucky be a reverse hit if they roll. this is of course extremely difficult. fair is just not a good option in this case, and some big asshole like DK can snatch her out of the air. should i try to lure them out with charge shots and jabs?

14. Platform Camping as Samus: how viable is it to camp the top platform on DL? in my recent match vs solo, i noticed he never let me be above him, he always ran to the other side of the stage so he could assault me with lasers. do i want to be able to control the top platform and the airspace between the sides and the top against fox? i cannot be eyelevel with fox and he has better options when he's above me. i don't know how great of an option this is, camping the top, but it looks like it requires the most patience.

15. Teleporting: i do it pretty often to get that extra bit of distance. i've only gotten one or two teleport dairs but teleport fair is a great way to disrupt an opponent who is used to the space samus takes up. to suddenly be closer than expected is a good way to catch someone off guard. she needs the extra speed.

Specific Character Questions

1. Edgeguarding Luigi/Mario: bombs are very troublesome to use and seldom hit despite my constant efforts. a mario bro who double jumps early and uses his cyclone closer to the stage is easier to take on than one who double jumps closer to the stage and uses the cyclone in the event of an edgeguard. should i go for a fall off nair vs mario and hope for the trade? and try to dair luigi and hope i don't get coin gimped?

2. Link: while edgeguarding, should i just edgehog? or is a bomb on the stage + dair a la DK a good tactic? i also have incredible trouble in this matchup. it seems like all of link's moves out prioritize samus's - his bair is quick and wrecks her fair, his dair will connect with her bair more often than it should, and uair/utilt effectively snuff dair. also, bombs and boomerangs stifle her ground approach. what am i to do?

3. Yoshi: i hate eating djc bairs against the dinosaur. sheer said to do a lot of multi hit moves - so fair is a good choice, but i don't like being armor countered. uair doesn't seem like a good option. i am at a loss. just learn how far the djc can go and try to effectively counter it? also, can yoshi utilt combo into stuff on samus? i know it's set knockback, but in my current delirious state i can't remember if higher percentage means higher time in hitstun despite having set knockback. i feel like this is wrong but i'm exhausted, bear with me. and as for edgeguarding him, jesus, i don't even know.

4. Falcon: usmash kills everything in its path. i find myself trading dair hits with uair and i don't know if i should be doing that. if i jump i'm vulnerable in the air without a second jump and if i bomb it's the same case. i'm fairly decent at edgeguarding him, but when i'm being edgeguarded, i don't know how to combat sh bairs or fsmashes. how should i be spacing against falcon? should i try to be more aerial or more grounded? i tend to jab a lot, but it seems when i land a dair he can almost immediately tech in place and usmash.

5. Pikachu: i can only think of bair. utilt wrecks everything and uair does too. i'm really at a loss for this matchup. at least with kirby, i know if you stay above kirby you're in a decent position. being above pika just means his broken ass uair has a better chance of hitting without a trade.

 

[clubbadubba]

7. Make sure you are going to be safe after the fair. If the move is going to end before you land, you should probably be pulling away from your opponent at some point so you don't get countered.

10. Yes don't use up-b if it's not necessary unless it somehow leads to an offensive option.

11. Ftilt is pretty pro sometimes, but it might only be because people never expect anyone to use it. Either way use it until the opponent figures it out for sure. Pretty good defensive move in situations where they would expect you to either jump or run away (like when you're getting tech chased).

12. Don't forget if they are being extremely pesky while edgeguarding you can always ledgehop -> neutral b -> back to ledge. It may or may not hit but it makes them at least think about another option you could do which often throws them off of covering something else you can do.

14. See Jousuke. Top platform camping is pretty ****ing good.


Character Q's

1. dtilt maybe? Idk the bros are tough to edgeguard with most characters.

3. edgeguarding: For edgeguarding at low percents you are kind of limited because of that broken ass super armor, but you can at least get some damage. Multi hits are good in this situation because often yoshi's counter options can be much less than on stage ones. Fair ( and even uair if yoshi goes high and you can escape safely) are good if you protect yourself after. If yoshi comes all the way back to the stage, you should be guaranteed a charge shot which is a cool 24% and probably does almost enough knockback to knock him out of armor so if you follow up with something who knows you might get lucky. If yoshi goes for that "I'm coming all the way back...PSYCH DOWN-B TO GRAB THE LEDGE" you can actually throw a grab out if you're in range and that will catch him.

4. lol. I think ledge camping is the only way to have a legitimate chance in this match-up.

5. Bair is good. Force pika to approach with charge shots. Use bombs to protect yourself from ground approachs and bair above them. Ftilt maybe as a defense option? Pivot fsmashes can work, grabs if they are careless. I'd say stay on the ground, force approach, and try to counter.

 

[mixa]

1. I tested out this ground Up-B from center stage and it leads nowhere, not sure what you're saying. The way I see it, you gotta have the skills. I'm not good at this so I can't tell you any tips.​

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2. Steve is right, since you can pivot multiple distances, you can pivot edgehog multiple distances.​

I don't see why you'd rely on a Samus ****ty pivot edgehog to EG a Fox coming from below, Fsmash, Dair, or even a bomb should work fine. Still a good skill to have nevertheless.​

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4. I know this one. (Dair → Bomb → Grab/Fsmash)​

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5. Yes.​

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also

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Here's a comparison, say you Dair this Pikachu and finish him to the right with either Bair or Hi-Fsmash:​

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from this position, Hi-Fsmash kills.​

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from the same position, Bair won't kill, and Pikachu using only his double-jump can reach this far back into the stage:​

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Here's from where Bair will start to kill:​

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You shouldn't always go for the Fsmash after a Dair, obviously. Sometimes there won't be enough time to release the attack, and other times you'll have to go up in the air to be able to punish. But it's not rare that you'll have both options to choose from. And even if it doesn't kill, Hi-Fsmash deals 6% more than Bair.​

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The same thinking should go towards Hi-Fsmash vs normal Fsmash. I say that if it's a free one, take the Hi, I mean why not? Unless it's a Kirby/Puff on the ground. Then again, if Kirby/Puff is on the ground, it's not free.​

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The reason for it being: no matter how small the knockback difference, if the side blastzone isn't miles away like in Hyrule or Sector Z, it will count a lot. Most finishers send the opponent in such angle that if it doesn't kill, the opponent will have a legit chance at coming back no matter how close they got to hitting the blastzone.​

And this is stupidly true for Pikachu.​

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Your match against Valoem (Pika) at this moment.​

You Fsmashed Pika, he didn't die and his double jump and aerial mobility were good enough to make your EG not that easy.​

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Had you Hi-Fsmashed Pika, he would've died by a safe margin. This is even more intense on Congo, where the side blastzones are shorter than DL's, thus nerfing the good comebacks (distance-wise).​

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Btw, I'm not saying you should've gone Hi in that situation, that Fsmash doesn't look like a read. And Fsmash has better horizontal range.​

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8.

is there a way to practice getting that dair to be there when their tech invincibility vanishes?

I don't know. But here's something that it's good to keep in mind:​

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Even if they tech and buffer shield, they are still vulnerable (I think 2 frames) before getting the shield up. Dair has 9 hitbox frames (the Japanese Dair, at least)​

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Have you tried doing that thing where you Dair an opponent who's on the ground and when they're about to hit the surface you Dair them again, making them pop up again?​

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And watch Jousuke, his platform Dair tech-chase is good.​

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[Cobrevolution]

thanks clubdawg and mixa. the platform camping thing with jousuke vs kirby is what i've been trying to emulate, but only vs kirby.

also

1. I tested out this ground Up-B from center stage and it leads nowhere, not sure what you're saying. The way I see it, you gotta have the skills. I'm not good at this so I can't tell you any tips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=149kYooe58I&t=1m38s

You shouldn't always go for the Fsmash after a Dair, obviously. Sometimes there won't be enough time to release the attack, and other times you'll have to go up in the air to be able to punish. But it's not rare that you'll have both options to choose from. And even if it doesn't kill, Hi-Fsmash deals 6% more than Bair.

so what about reverse bair? i can get often enough that i know when it'll kill, but i don't know how it fares against hi fsmash. or is the change in knockback negligible?
with regard to the tech thing, thanks. and i 'preciate the response overall with respect to the fsmash vs bair.

 

[Nintendude]

To edgeguard Mario Bros, do a grounded bomb from the stage to the ledge. Then drop off and Dair them when they up-B into the bomb.

 

[mixa]

1. Ledge Canceled upb's on DL

cobr do this i'll be your fangirl

 

[Cobrevolution]

oh my ****ing god

i'll work on it don't worry

i've been practicing roll against right plat -> platdrop -> fastfall -> ledge cancel -> fast fall edgehog -> ledgehop bair. but as with most **** with her, it's a *****

also what's that gif from?

 

[mixa]

I had to open my emu to see what that was about
every ledge cancel that isn't done by just blindly holding a direction I find it too hard. and to make it worse, Samus' Up B doesn't shift directions like Link's Up B, it's weirder.

gif is from the 2nd match Jousuke vs Ryo, GFs of a 2012 online Spring tourney.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18332329
---

maybe you could do that thing of finding a flower to position yourself, then short hopping back to a somewhat automatic ledge cancel

 

[Cobrevolution]

yeah it's pretty goddamn rough

i messed around with knitephox and was trying to link like, a nair -> jab or fair -> dtilt. if you're standing just in the tree's face, right behind his nose, you can jump and bair and auto cancel it. i haven't really found the same spot on the right side. how unsymmetrical is dreamland? and what do you mean shift directions?

but you can't short hop onto the platforms. unless you mean the ledge itself. actually you can almost get it perfect with a stick short hop but that's really hard

 

[The Star King]

i've been practicing roll against right plat -> platdrop -> fastfall -> ledge cancel -> fast fall edgehog -> ledgehop bair. but as with most **** with her, it's a *****

I don't understand what the purpose of that sequence is.

Considering Samus's slow-ass roll, you can probably just turn around and short hop fastfall onto the ledge and it'll be faster. Among other things (pivot shielddrop, pivot down-b, run off -> fastfall -> jump -> turn around b)

 

[Cobrevolution]

the purpose of the roll is to get myself as close to the right edge of the platform as i can

basically i want to really get ledgecancelling down and that is a good way to practice it in addition to my ledgehop fair ledgecancel **** i'm aching over

 

[The Star King]

oh. well if you're practicing so you can ledge-cancel up-b I'm not sure it's a good idea because her horizontal aerial speed is different (lower) after an up-b, compared to her falling normally

 

[Gammelnorsk]

u need to stop mastering useless stuff

 

[Cobrevolution]

i was unaware of that, but i'm working on all ledge cancels - after an upb, off a plank, after an attack on the left/right platforms. the upb is by far the most difficult i think

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It could be worse, people could ledge cancel Pikachu's recovery like that.

 

[TheRealMrWillis]

Can anyone give a list of actual Samus combos? I'm legitimately curious lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

fair -> upb

dair -> usmash -> bair/charge shot depending on percent
dair -> any aerial

fair -> fair -> fair -> fair on jpuff, or bair -> bair -> bair -> dair

fair -> dair on pika at like 30-40. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=149kYooe58I&t=119 )

 

[TheRealMrWillis]

fair -> dair on pika at like 30-40.

WAIT A MINUTE!!!! SAMUS CAN KEN COMBO PIKACHU???????????

 

[Han Solo]

Valoem clearly nair'd before Cobr's dair hit him making it a pseudocombo at best.

 

[TheRealMrWillis]

Oh, well I'm talking about combos that are 99% guaranteed to hit, not pseudocombos

 

[Cobrevolution]

maybe a bit higher on the percentage, then? i know that tends to work quite often. unless people really just never try to counter

 

[TheRealMrWillis]

I'm confused, I thought fair had set knockback?

 

[Cobrevolution]

no. upb has set knockback. fair has low knockback. think uair has set too actually

 

[Timotheus]

after attacking a character with a fair and both characters are still in the air after the attack, samus has some Combo Options, depending on Opponents di

-when the Opponent is in front of samus, another fair or nair is an Option
-when the Opponent is in front of samus but samus is above, making a bomb is an Option for not getting punished
-when the Opponent is behind samus, making a dair is an Option because the hitbox starts behind her
-when the Opponent is above and behind samus, making a bair in an Option, because the hitbox starts behind her head and is huge
-when the Opponent is above samus, making uair or upb is an option

samus' bair start hitbox (facing right)

samus' dair start hitbox (facing right)

 

[mixa]

good stuff with the hitbox stuff, Timo.


here's some combos&stuff from Jousuke vs Sin (Falcon), Kanto 2013: http://imgur.com/a/1sjmK#0
and a plat tech chase.


cobr, I meant to ask you this before in some other discussion, but watching your match against Combo reminded me. do you ever go for the Up-B shield break after only one Dair?
ex.: at 12m45s, isn't Dair → plat drop → Up-B viable? It does rely on the opponent keeping the shield, but y'know.

 

[The Star King]

maybe a bit higher on the percentage, then? i know that tends to work quite often. unless people really just never try to counter

yeah you need higher percents to true combo fair -> aerial without landing, because the end lag on Samus's fair is way laggier than it should be (she does a flip)

 

[Cobrevolution]

cobr, I meant to ask you this before in some other discussion, but watching your match against Combo reminded me. do you ever go for the Up-B shield break after only one Dair?
ex.: at 12m45s, isn't Dair → plat drop → Up-B viable? It does rely on the opponent keeping the shield, but y'know.

you can break without the dair as you know, but in that situation, you'll go too high if you upb as soon as you platdrop.

I THINK

also god i can't believe i went down three games after going up two

this is sorta related but with regard to shieldstun: a shield has 55 hp or whatever, right? a high angled fsmash will do more damage to a shield than a normal or a low one. but what if you've only hit with fsmashes, and they're stale? same case for dair - you're tech chasing on a plat, and mistime one, and the opponent shields. the damage will have been greatly lessened, so will the shield suffer less stun?

 

[Sangoku]

Yes, sadly.

 

[clubbadubba]

There's been talk about how to DI out of samus's upb, but not a whole lot about how to prevent people from DIing out upb when you use it. What are the best ways to keep them in it in different situations? I ask because in my experience my opponents are often stuck in my upb for the full duration more often than I am stuck in theirs. This occurs with players I consider to have better DI than me as well, which is why I'm curious. I know when I use upb, I don't usually just hold a direction, but instead kinda wiggle it back and forth instinctually depending on where/how much they DI. Thing is, when I think about it I'm not actually sure if it does anything or if I'm just imagining it. Idk, anyone got any reliable info on this?

 

[Sangoku]

As long as your opponent is not DIing in a dumb way (ie right or left) where you could follow, there's nothing you can do. That's why it is adviced to DI up or down, since you can't follow in these directions. "Wiggling it back and forth" doesn't change the height of the Up B.

 

[clubbadubba]

Is left or right DI still bad after the initial hits on the way up? I find left or right to be the best option for me if I miss the initial DI down. Then again my DI method works best for left or right, not up or down so that's prolly it.

But lets say they are DIing left or right, since that's how a lot of people seem to do it probably because **** DI is easiest in those directions. Could wiggling back and forth feasibly be better than just holding a direction? I seem to get better results when I don't just hold. Could be imagination though.

 

[Sangoku]

Left or right isn't worse than any direction per se, it's just about following. So yeah, during the initial ascending phase down is the best. But when stabilized every direction is the same, except if Samus follows, which she can only do left or right.

Then I agree sometimes it's better to still DI left or right if your DI is that much better than up or down.

I don't see how wiggling could be better than all the way left or right though.

 

[clubbadubba]

huh. Its not like I wiggle the joystick rhythmically, I just kinda watch the screen and I know I move left or right multiple times throughout the upb. Does the knockback from up-b in the 'stabilized' part pull the opponent in towards the center? But even so their DI would escape if they just went in one direction... Idk but I'm just gonna keep doing it lol. Maybe it is just a technique I picked up because it helps me notice their DI better or something.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Hey clubba, I know what ur talking about. I do the same thing. If my opponent misses the initial di up or down and they're trying to di left or right, I also wiggle the joystick towards them so that they don't escape the upB. So, iono if ur imagining it lol

 

[Sangoku]

I don't understand. Are you saying you're going farther to the side by wiggling? And what do you mean by "But even so their DI would escape if they just went in one direction"? I'm not sure if Samus' Up B sends toward the center (think so, but haven't checked), but take Mario's Down B for example: you can't escape it sideways because the centripete knockback is greater than the distance covered by the DI (even a perfect smash DI is not enough and I don't believe anyone has better DI than that).

Obviously wiggling is better than doing nothing, but I don't see how it is better than simply going fully in one direction.

 

[clubbadubba]

Hey clubba, I know what ur talking about. I do the same thing. If my opponent misses the initial di up or down and they're trying to di left or right, I also wiggle the joystick towards them so that they don't escape the upB. So, iono if ur imagining it lol

YESSSSSSSSS I KNEW IT LOL!!!!!!

By wiggle I mean kinda toggle between right and left. If they are DIing right I'll toggle more right than left, but sometimes I pull back to the left briefly and that seems to keep them trapped. Maybe at different points in the move the knockbacks are different so that at certain times its actually better to move away from them? Dude i just have no idea its weird.

 

[Cobrevolution]

yeah it's basic **** CLUBDAWG

nah jokes but i do the same thing if they have light di. if they tend to DI more often in one direction than another, i'll always hold towards that direction until just before the move ends to keep them in it.

additionally, let's say someone is edgeguarding you, and you ledgehop upb - you want to hold right for as long as possible (assuming they aren't di'ing towards the stage), but then hit left just before the move ends, that way the knockback sends them off stage and you can regrab ledge to dair or bair or get up or etc.

i wiggle to keep them in to experiment with what direction they're planning on di'ing. what's amusing is i was doing all this **** before competitive and the tricks still work...AHA!

sidenote also from that year of funsies: turn on a bobomb and upb right next to it. it'll explode but you'll be out of harm's way. always the best thing to do in ffa with items, detonate this ****ing bomb and escape.

 

[NamelessHunter]

Hello there! I've been playing Smash64 for a long time now, but only recently started really getting into it. I'm most confortable playing Samus, so this seems to be the right thread.

I'm currently practicing my dairs right now, as they are really lacking, but I've almost got them down. I can't seem to find a good list of "Samus Basics" anywhere. Hell, I didn't know dair was good until I read it here. I'm just looking a list of moves and basic techniques I should master before entering any local tournies.

While sorta on the topic of dairs, whats a good way to practice them?