Samus Discussion

[SuPeRbOoM]

if grab was used there, then it would've grabbed them. I used shield cause I wanted to continue the techchase.

 

[Timotheus]

Shield is better imo because you can grab, jump, usmash, up-b or even roll if you miss timed something. doesnt matter what character

 

[Jouske]

I had heavy damage now.Things I wrote disappeared when I clicked Post Reply button.It's Trap.

@ mixa

@ Jouske , I'm really curious, what Japanese name is used for "Air BACK A"?

Air down A = メテオ (for Samus/Falcon)

Air back A = 後ろ ... 「ぎり」 ??
Air forward A = 前 ...?
Air up A = ...?

Air back A = 後ろ蹴り.
蹴り＝けり＝keri. But, 後ろ蹴り is pronounced "usiro geri".
Pronunciation changes.It's Japanese mystery.
Japanese usually call Samus's Bair "Sobat".

Air forward A = 空中前（kuutyuu mae）　or　空中前Ａ（kuutyuu mae e）　or　空前（kuu mae）
空=air　中＝in　前＝front
other,炎（this mean flame and pronounce hono）　or　ボーボボ（this is onomatopoeia）
Incidentally,Japanese official name is エアリアルヘルファイア.
エアリアル=aerial　ヘル＝hell　ファイア＝fire

Air up A
We usually call ドリル.ドリル＝drill.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/ChrFrameLayout.html
We can see Japanese name this official site.


Tech-chasing distance data and your investigation is cool.
I have though how to attack to tech ,too.
But,I did't know detail data like this.

add

Sorry,I did a terrible mistake.
I thought my post disappeared,but there is.
I don't know how to delete my post.Sorry.

 

[mixa]

Thaaanks! I have been learning the names by watching videos and couldn't discover the aerials.

Pronunciation changes.It's Japanese mystery.

ww I like mysteries.

 

[mixa]

Why not even a trade?

Possible answers:

1. Puff's nair has more priority
2. Puff's nair outspaced Samus' fair
3. Samus' fair didn't come out in time, or, even though there was fire, no hitboxes came out
   
4. Fake smash

Problems with those answers:

1. What is priority? I've always thought priority is this. So I don't know.

2. Is that even possible in that angle? I mean look at those hitboxes, if anything Samus should be the one winning.

3. Reminder of how Samus' fair works: it's a slow multi-hit move. You get 2 frames with hitboxes, 5 frames without, 2 with, 5 without, etc. The first flames come out on the same frame as the first hitboxes, so unless I'm missing something, we can assume that, at the beginning of the move, if there's fire, there's a hitbox.

4. i agree

note: I tried to reproduce this scenario with TAS. It either trades, or Samus wins. But this happens often enough, doesn't it? There's the scenario where Samus is slightly above the opponent and a fair won't connect (Samus landing vs oppnent on the ground). But I'm not talking about that, because that's just a poor spacing decision, I see no mystery in it.

 

[Cobrevolution]

even though there was fire, no hitboxes came out

this

the hitbox to animation ratio is ****ed for my bby. i couldn't tell you the amount of times i've faired someone else and it just got beat - not even a trade. just acted as if i hadn't put flames in their face.

 

[mixa]

pls elaborate cobr

at the beginning of the move, if there's fire, there's a hitbox

 

[Cobrevolution]

that instance must have been one of those things where you hear a move or see an animation but nothing is affected

ie if you upb with samus and you hear the whizz but you retain your jump, or the explosion when you hear a falcon punch but there's not fiery falcon of death

at the beginning of the move, if there's fire, there's a hitbox

slow it down and double check i suppose i've been drinking so i might sound ********

i take priority as damage and potential hitbox clashing with potential hurtbox

so something like pika fsmash has high priority because the potential hitbox is disjointed and is extremely likely to hit another player's hurtbox, with little chance of

nevermind @ Sangoku do something about this explanation

 

[mixa]

that instance must have been one of those things where you hear a move or see an animation but nothing is affected

If that were the case, wouldn't it mean that the fire comes before the hitbox? Like I said, both come out together looking frame by frame.

However it seems like this is too simple considering what we see in games. I considered that possibility and tried making the fire appear without a hitbox even though that's not what happens in TAS. Samus would get hit 1 frame before her fair hitbox would come out, and no fire appeared. I don't get it.

And supposing that's the case, what determines when it'll happen?

the explosion when you hear a falcon punch but there's not fiery falcon of death

That puzzles me. If I'm reading Toomai's chart correctly, the punch sound should came with the hitbox (or later?). So it does seem this hitbox cancel happens.


and yeah, what you were saying about priority is what the guy in the video said

 

[The Star King]

it's because according to my sources (Youtube comments) Isai is a hacker, looks like he's been CAUGHT in the ACT

is that Samus fair hitbox image the first frame of hitbox/fire?

 

[mixa]

and it's not the first time we see malva playing with weird hitboxes

is that Samus fair hitbox image the first frame of hitbox/fire?

Yeah. It's also the first hitbox frame for Puff.

 

[Cobrevolution]

doesn't puff's nair elongate in disjointedness the longer it's out

 

[mixa]

Yes, but unless I'm looking at it the wrong way, it's just as disjointed as Samus' fair.
And to me it seems like the nair hit as soon as it was out.

Late edit (1/2): the following is not accurate.
As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, to replicate what happened and thus avoid a trade, Puff's hitbox would need to touch Samus' outermost hurtbox (her limb) without having her own limb (red circle) touched.
Moreover, this can't be a graduate process, otherwise the hitboxes would clash (causing a trade) before there's a chance for the yellow to get touched. The hitboxes have to come out full range. At least one of characters must be at their first hitbox frame).

Late edit (2/2): the following statement is accurate, however.
It seems pretty hardcore for Puff to avoid a trade in that situation.

 

[rpotts]

Could it be simply that the first bit of fire comes out even if you're hit and interrupted before the hitbox comes out? That is, fair starts but before the first hitbox comes out Jiggs' nair connects, but Samus is past the "threshold" and the first image of fire pops up anyway, even with no hitbox. It is somewhat similar to Link's upb HYAAH sound with no hitbox or Falcon's punch explosion.

 

[Sangoku]

mixa said several times that there were no such frame (ie hitbox and fire come out on the same frame). I have no idea what happened either.

What happens when you try to recreate the situation? Samus wins?

 

[rpotts]

mixa said several times that there were no such frame (ie hitbox and fire come out on the same frame). I have no idea what happened either.

What happens when you try to recreate the situation? Samus wins?

Right I understand that, but it doesn't mean the animation couldn't be "past the point of no return" even if you're interrupted.

Bottom line is, Samus' fair sucks and no one should be surprised when any more ever outspaces it regardless of what looks like should happen.

 

[mixa]

but it doesn't mean the animation couldn't be "past the point of no return" even if you're interrupted.

I considered that possibility and tried making the fire appear without a hitbox even though that's not what happens in TAS. Samus would get hit 1 frame before her fair hitbox would come out, and no fire appeared. I don't get it.

What happens when you try to recreate the situation? Samus wins?

note: I tried to reproduce this scenario with TAS. It either trades, or Samus wins.

i guess the number of posts i've made so far is what is actually past the point of no return for a good discussion

 

[Cobrevolution]

i dunno meesha. guess it's just one of those bull**** happenings like this at 12:23

just further testimony that fox is broken and samus sucks

 

[The Star King]

i dunno meesha. guess it's just one of those bull**** happenings like this at 12:23

just further testimony that fox is broken and samus sucks

I like how you somehow turned a Puff vs Samus situation (or Falcon vs Mario link) into "fox is broken", good stuff

 

[mixa]

12:23 is mario vs falcon, cobr

ok i've done various tests etc and the conclusion is sometimes the game is stupid ggs close topic

edit: and my previous post on 'puff avoiding the trade' is not 100% accurate

 

[Cobrevolution]

it's merely a joke illustrating

the game is stupid ggs

this

i do believe it's one of those situations i mentioned like falcon punch explosion comes out but you get grabbed or something, except happening in the air

regardless, it leads me to ask: fair gets beaten 80% of the time, and when i try to trade nairs, i lose half the time. should i really just never turn around? and if that is the case, how am i supposed to adequately deal with mario and fox?

 

[mixa]

regardless, it leads me to ask: fair gets beaten 80% of the time, and when i try to trade nairs, i lose half the time. should i really just never turn around? and if that is the case, how am i supposed to adequately deal with mario and fox?

just go and beat them up

ur welcome

 

[Cobrevolution]

SAGE BOOMFAN-ESQUE ADVICE INDEED

 

[Jouske]

I think "Puff's nair outspaced Samus' fair" .
Because Samus's Fair hitbox doesn't appear forward of the flame effect.
In this gif animation, Jigglypuff is out of Samus's Fair hitbox.
Puff is moving, so hard to judge correct position of hitbox and hurtbox.
To say from my experience, if Samus's gun pod and Jigglypuff Nair's foot are same height and crash, Samus lose .

Apart from that, Samus's hitbox has some mystery.

Samus's Fair hitbox come out 5F.
If Samus worked Fair and landed 5F, flame effect come out without hitbox.

In my experience, Samus's forward smash had lost unreasonable.
For example, Mario's Nair (weak hitbox), Mario's down + B.
Why?I have no idea.
I think this mystery is resemble in mixa saying.


P.S.
I wanted to edit, but I was failure.
sorry

 

[Sangoku]

Looks like rpotts was right and mixa mis-checked. Thanks for the answer and the gif. Also don't worry about accidental double post, I simply delete them.

 

[mixa]

Samus's hitbox has some mystery.

sasuga

Samus's Fair hitbox come out 5F.
If Samus worked Fair and landed 5F, flame effect come out without hitbox.

I have noticed this too. However, I thought this could only happen when landing.

I think "Puff's nair outspaced Samus' fair" .

Thanks for your input! I think you are correct, after all. I am surprised this turned out to be the answer.
Here's my theory:

While in the air, if Samus' fair gets interrupted on the same frame as the hitbox comes out by getting hit in the feet, then flames will appear. But because Samus got hit, she won't have a hitbox out.

Spoiler: EXHIBIT #1 -- Samus gets on the same frame as the hitbox would come out

Countdown for the fair hitbox to come out

The reason I say her feet is because it is not possible to interrupt her fair by hitting in the chest 1 frame before. If at time 0 (see gif) Puff were at that chest height, then we would see a trade. I had a really hard time understanding what I just said, so I'm not sure if I'm communicating it efficiently.
It doesn't have to be her feet, it can be anywhere except where the hitbox will appear. You can hit her in the back.

Spoiler: EXHIBIT #2 -- Samus gets hit in the back on the same frame as the hitbox would come out

And the reason Puff can't avoid a trade face to face is because Samus' hitbox is wider. So if the hitboxes are aligned, Samus will win.

Spoiler: EXHIBIT #3 -- Hitbox aligned = Samus wins

there's your elongated hitbox

Mystery SOLVED.

kinda, 'cause look at that Isai vs Jaime gif again. how the hell was he outspaced.

Looks like rpotts was right and mixa mis-checked

rpotts knew everything all along and I didn't know what hell I was talking about. damn.
i 'mis-checked' because I tried to hit samus like the gif showed. not my fault Isai's hitboxes are weird af. how did he not get a trade at that position? unless there's something else
that gif contradicts everything i've said in this post and my tas tests (i.e. you can't get the hitboxless flame to come out by hitting samus in the face)
and i knew about the landing flame thing before the jousuke posts, i didn't post about it cause 1. no one cares 2. my posts were big enough already that people were missing stuff and 3. that was landing this is in the air.


fake smash.

 

[Jouske]

I'm glad that mystery SOLVED.
Nice GIF animations.

i knew about the landing flame thing before the jousuke posts,

I think American's knowledge is very very high.They know that Japanese doesn't know.
So I thought you probably knew about flame effect and landing before I said.
I just wanted to say

Looks like rpotts was right and mixa mis-checked. Thanks for the answer and the gif. Also don't worry about accidental double post, I simply delete them.

Thanks.I'm careless.

 

[mixa]

I think American's knowledge is very very high.They know that Japanese doesn't know.

Haha, I don't know if that's true.
But in any case, you know how to fight better. I think that is more important.

So I thought you probably knew about flame effect and landing before I said.
I just wanted to say

No no, I'm really glad you shared your knowledge.
I had given up on the problem until you posted. It helped me to think better.

 

[The Star King]

So let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying correctly.

You're saying that if Samus gets hit first frame that her hitbox would come out, and her own Fair hitbox *would* hit something, the Fair hitbox will still come out and she actually does hit... but if Samus is hit on that same frame and her hitbox *wouldn't* hit something, the Fair hitbox will not come out... in other words, the game kind of calculates what will happen next frame, and what it knows will happen next frame, affects what actually happens next frame, lol

In other words, in instances where a hitbox comes out, the game prioritizes like this: hitbox comes out and you get hit (trade) > getting hit > hitbox coming out. Pretty counter-intuitive. Hitbox coming out has both highest and lowest priority - it depends on whether you get hit as well.

Right?

 

[mixa]

You're saying that if Samus gets hit first frame that her hitbox would come out, and her own Fair hitbox *would* hit something, the Fair hitbox will still come out and she actually does hit...

I don't think I was saying that. But what you wrote seems to be right after what I found out.
Coming back to exhibit #2, I said there was no hitbox, only flames. Which to me seemed a reasonable conclusion as we're in hitbox mode and we see flames but no hitboxes, right?
Wrong. We can't trust hitbox mode. I replicated the same scenario but now with something for Samus' fair to hit.

Spoiler: EXHIBIT #4 -- Flames!

So even though there are no apparent hitboxes accompanying the flames in hitbox mode, the flames still carry hitbox. Does this happen 100% of the time? It sure didn't happen in that match which started this discussion. Also, while quickly testing that possibility, I initially thought the contrary, because of this picture. Despite those two instances, if I correctly space Samus, it hits the second Puff every time.

 

[The Star King]

k so basically the original gif still has no real explanation to it and doesn't make any sense, and you can't even reproduce it in TAS, cool

must be the super secret single frame of intangibility Puff gets at 14%. or the game just decides to randomly give that frame to Isai because they've been best buddies for 15 years. idk.

 

[mixa]

Kirby crouch stops the tech-chase.

However, big Kirby (up-B glitch) is not so safe against the dash attack.

Also, S' Kirby is pretty smart for a non-Kirby main.

 

[Jouske]

@ mixa
Thanks.I'm glad to be told that.

@ The Star King
I'm sorry I can't understand English conversation.
Do you still have any mystery？

I think This picture Samus land when 5 frame of Fair.

Flame effect anytime have hitbox unless otherwise landed.

I think this is not random.

 

[Jouske]

Kirby crouch stops the tech-chase.

However, big Kirby (up-B glitch) is not so safe against the dash attack.

Also, S' Kirby is pretty smart for a non-Kirby main.

Kirby's clouch is strong against ground Samus.
It is famous in Japan.

 

[mixa]

Program to help the practice of tech-chasing, AutoTechSwitch: http://ch.nicovideo.jp/iceore/blomaga/ar505534
edit: I had posted the wrong links earlier.

It'll randomly tech or tech-roll.

In the download page, follow the arrow.

Load the program. Load the emulator (Mupen/PJ)
Dair and save state or something and then turn it on.
Press space to turn it on/off.
Esc to exit.​

It seems to be a very simple program so it should work fine.


I cannot make it work because regardless of whether I'm 1P or 2P, my input is always the one that gets taken over. It's weird.

Ugh... yeah, my input gets taken over regardless of what I try. The description did say it was not useful for keyboard players... sad times.
I'll try hooking up two keyboards someday. If this programs actually works well, it'll be the most exciting 64 software/thing in a while.

 

[Armando_]

I honestly think that Samus shouldn't be last on the tier list. She's not that bad...I mean yea she's a floaty character and her recovery is terrible, but she does have some combos, imo. What do you guys think?

 

[Cobrevolution]

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-discussion.288200/

samus is a "she"

 

[Armando_]

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-discussion.288200/

samus is a "she"

Yea sorry about that...I knew that but for some reason I just didn't write it...and I'll look into that thread you sent, thanks!

 

[Sangoku]

On the contrary her recovery is really good and her combo game is almost inexistant. Have you played against good people yet? By good I mean competitive level (ie with someone known here).

 

[Armando_]

On the contrary her recovery is really good and her combo game is almost inexistant. Have you played against good people yet? By good I mean competitive level (ie with someone known here).

I have not unfortunately, been busy with irl latelty, but I have seen competitive Samus play.

And just a question, any way to avoid Pikachu's fsmash when he's edgeguarding Samus? Cause it seems hard to avoid.