Sakurai talks about Clones in Famitsu column

[Blargg888]

Not really, since Alph could have been an interesting variation BECAUSE the unique playstyle of Olimar accommodates for unique variations.

And clearly, hindering the uniqueness of other characters is not a problem, since clone characters exist at all. And then you have Lucina, who is literally Marth without the one thing that makes Marth most unique, and a little faster and lighter than him.

And I'd rather one genuinely constructive clone than 3 that feel like they serve little purpose from a gameplay stand point.

And Dr. Mario is objectively worse than Mario in every possible way in Smash 4. He's slow, has bad recovery, F-air doesn't meteor smash and doesn't do much knockback to make up for it (and is still rather slow), he can't combo nearly as well, while Mario is a combo master in this game, and can get character sup into the 60% in seconds, with the opponent having no hope of escaping if the combos are executed properly.

Dr. Mario's only real advantage is his moves do more damage and his Smash attacks may have more knockback, but it's not like Mario is lacking in this department in the first place, and he more than makes up for it since he can deal even more damage in a quicker amount of time through his combos. Plus, Mario's air game is much better, which is important in Smash 4, as off stage play is so prominent in the game.

Also, Mario Tornado got a huge nerf, while FLUDD was actually buffed quite a bit, and is now a very effective gimping tool, and can even be used for horizontal recovery (Side B away from stage, then Down B).

Dr. Mario is basically Brawl Mario with the Mario Tornado as his Down B. And Smash 4 Mario is WAY better than Brawl Mario.

Dr. Mario isn't even close to Brawl Mario. As a Mario player he feels completely different.

 

[ChikoLad]

Dr. Mario isn't even close to Brawl Mario. As a Mario player he feels completely different.

He's not identical obviously, but if I had to compare him, yeah, Brawl Mario is the closest choice. His weaknesses are akin to Brawl Mario, if not worse in some cases (like the recovery).

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

People always say clones take no effort, but they obviously take some, Dr Mario does have some unique properties and such and no doubt required at least some balance testing. I'm sure that if we sacrificed all 3 clones we could get at least one "semi-clone" character, ala Falco, and it'd be a much better trade.

Exactly! Wolf might be pushing it a bit since he's an original character ( with original a moves and b moves), but Lucas is a different story. He has the same height and weight as Ness plus his standard specials are in the game. Copy and paste Ness' custom moves then all you need is the original a moves and boom in smash bros Wii U/3DS
If Sakurai really wanted to make a kid Icarus clone character I would've excepted Hades as a clone more than because at least Hades isn't a re skin of ,that and Hades is awesome and an actual villain.
If used the cool looking Dark Pit staff ( even as a re skin of the silver bow) I might be more excepting of him. I would have been much more excepting if was playable. Unfortunately none of those have happened yet. I'm kind of against him now. It doesn't help also that helps the Sakurai is biased towards Kid Icarus (and biased against Star Fox ( The only series that lost something, didn't gain anything ( 1 new stage isn't good enough) ) claim. I'm not as hard on clone if they aren't just an alt palette of a character.
Is an insult to fans because they were more requested than him. If it was someone else in a doctor's coat he'd be excepted, but its in a doctors coat in the game while aren't.
Now if he sung the Dr. Mario song I would like him more.

I thought of her as the new when she was announced. ( a much better time when we were all speculating the roster. Gematsu was dead and everyone ( that wasn't deconfirmed at the time) still had a shot.
I've never been a fan of Marth so I probably won't play as her.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

He's not identical obviously, but if I had to compare him, yeah, Brawl Mario is the closest choice. His weaknesses are akin to Brawl Mario, if not worse in some cases (like the recovery).

I do better with Doctor Mario then regular Mario. Just saying.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

If y'all gonna be salting up your free desserts, don't be complaning that it tastes bad.
Also, too bad "Change this to a meat dish!" doesn't fit in the taunt messages for online with friends. It sounds like a great taunt.

 

[Nekoo]

Another clone complain thread ?

Even if i troll the clone , they don't bother me . Hell ! Pitto was so Swag during the palutena trailer and his Victory thème is gorgeous, Lucina is Waifu lvl 100 fastest and not stupid tipping and Doc Mario bring back the tornado and the down+a ! And for free ! IF IT WASN'T NINTENDO AND SAKURAI WHO DO THE GAME , THOSE LITTLE BONUS YOU HAVE TO PAID 8 BUCK ! ( SF , DOA fan Will understand )

 

[LordCQ]

Lucina deserved her own moveset, she was thought to fight by Chrom so giving her a mix between Marth and Ike would've been enough. (Aether, Sakurai!)

I wouldn't mind Dark Pit if he had at least more variations similar to KI:U weapons and all that stuff.

Then there's Dr. Mario... I really can't stand him because there's already a lot of Mario **** already! «Super Mario and other Smashers Bros» for Wii U 2 anyone? Geez...

 

[Nekoo]

You don't understand they do the clone for free ! Maybe even during his lunchtime !

 

[GunGunW]

I don't mind clones, I just personally don't like Dark Pit. But Dr. Mario and Lucina I'm pretty happy about.

 

[ChikoLad]

What I would have loved was if Dark Pit's moveset was focused on ranged combat, since that was a huge part of Uprising's gameplay, and it's not represented that much by the Kid Icarus cast.

They can't overhaul Pit because people were used to him from Brawl, so the kept the focus on close combat. But making the Dark Pit Staff the primary weapon for Dark Pit would have been cool, and base his moveset around that. Then, give Dark Pit a superior aerial game, and Pit would have a superior ground game.

 

[Blargg888]

Exactly! Wolf might be pushing it a bit since he's an original character, but Lucas is a different story. He has the same height and weight as Ness plus his standard specials are in the game. Copy and paste Ness' custom moves then all you need is that a move and boom in smash bros Wii U/3DS
If Sakurai really wanted to make a kid Icarus clone character I would've excepted Hades as a clone more than because at least Hades isn't a re skin of ,that and Hades is awesome and an actual villain.
If used the cool looking Dark Pit staff ( even as a re skin of the silver bow) I might be more excepting of him. I would have been much more excepting if was playable. Unfortunately none of those have happened yet. I'm kind of against him now. It doesn't help also that helps the Sakurai is biased towards Kid Icarus (and biased against Star Fox ( The only series that lost something, didn't gain anything ( 1 new stage isn't good enough) ) claim. I'm not as hard on clone if they aren't just an alt palette of a character.
Is an insult to fans because they were more requested than him. If it was someone else in a doctor's coat he'd be excepted, but its in a doctors coat in the game while aren't.
Now if he sung the Dr. Mario song I would like him more.

I thought of her as the new when she was announced. ( a much better time when we were all speculating the roster. Gematsu was dead and everyone ( that wasn't deconfirmed at the time) still had a shot.
I've never been a fan of Marth so I probably won't play as her.

Wolf and Lucas had different standard attacks, so that logic just falls flat and doesn't make sense.
Also *Accepting

What I would have loved was if Dark Pit's moveset was focused on ranged combat, since that was a huge part of Uprising's gameplay, and it's not represented that much by the Kid Icarus cast.

They can't overhaul Pit because people were used to him from Brawl, so the kept the focus on close combat. But making the Dark Pit Staff the primary weapon for Dark Pit would have been cool, and base his moveset around that. Then, give Dark Pit a superior aerial game, and Pit would have a superior ground game.

Too bad they didn't have time to do that.

 

[alex6309]

The only thing I hate about Dark Pit(aside from being a literal character recolor) is that he's just pit with different specials & final smash. I remember reading posts that confirmed that Dark Pit's damage, knockback, and handling were the same or very close to Pit's stats aside from his specials. That's just frustrating.

 

[Gawain]

Good on him to defend his stance and to tell the people who've been constantly pestering him about this to back off. He has a point: none of them know how resources are divided, or how much resources something takes, or what should have priority. This statement shows backbone and I can appreciate that.

 

[Blargg888]

Could you please leave it to me to select [characters] with man-hours and costs in mind? ~ Sakurai

When Smash fans get whiny, Sakurai is in charge of choosing who is popular!
Sakurai: Leave it to me!

 

[Saltwater Gem]

Good on him to defend his stance and to tell the people who've been constantly pestering him about this to back off. He has a point: none of them know how resources are divided, or how much resources something takes, or what should have priority. This statement shows backbone and I can appreciate that.

How exactly does resource allocation explain picking his own generic edgy Pit palette swap instead of something people wanted?

 

[Gawain]

How exactly does resource allocation explain picking his own generic edgy Pit palette swap instead of something people wanted?

Because Dark Pit obviously took an incredibly small amount of resources. Those resources would not have lead into a new character. Not even close. They were probably decided based on spare time and money they had after finishing the development of the game. It's not like they planned to put him in the from the very beginning, like some people seem to think. One slot on the roster is not equal to another. Robin probably took a whole lot more development time than Little Mac, for example. Treating each slot, especially the clones, as if they're worth the same amount of time and money as a newcomer is completely absurd.

 

[GunGunW]

How exactly does resource allocation explain picking his own generic edgy Pit palette swap instead of something people wanted?

I can understand how Lucina (being shorter than Marth) and Dr. Mario (kinda sorta the same thing but not as much) could throw off battle statistics what with slightly different hit boxes and everything, but I'm not sure how Dark Pit qualified lol

 

[Arcadenik]

Apart from the fact that Dark Pit was given priority over Alph, I'm fine with the clones.

I've gotten over Dark Pit and I'm fine with the clones... but I really wish that Alph was the fourth clone newcomer instead of an alternate character. Alph could have used Rock Pikmin instead of Purple Pikmin. As for the Koopalings, I'm happy they didn't become separate characters... people would complain about 14 Mario characters.

 

[AIM0001]

Funny. Ganondorf certainly doesn't feel at all the same. Nor does Toon Link. They're both so different from how they were in Brawl.

Well to be fair I Havnt played the 3DS SMASH. Can you please shed some light on how they feel nothing like Brawl? I'd like to know because I have been wanting to see Ganondorf be his own character for so long.

 

[Vaughngief]

So much upset over the clones. Guess I'm used to it being a big Street Fighter fan.

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh, I wouldn't say that. I've tried both out for a bit in Smash 3DS and Dark Pit feels heavier, tad slower, slightly worse recovery, and hits a bit harder. Nothing noticeable at first glance though aside from the design. That's just my input though.

I kindly ask you to stop spreading misinformation. DP is the cloniest character in SSB to date, having only two moves + associated customs and a different final smash.

I think Dark Pit does deserve a slight bit of criticism. He should've been slightly more different than he is currently. But if people are constantly reporting that he's not entirely identical save 3 moves, then never mind. That's way more forgivable and does show he's been made to have a different enough way to be used.

It's really just the three moves. That's just people trying to find differences that don't exist.

The only thing I hate about Dark Pit(aside from being a literal character recolor) is that he's just pit with different specials & final smash. I remember reading posts that confirmed that Dark Pit's damage, knockback, and handling were the same or very close to Pit's stats aside from his specials. That's just frustrating.

To be fair, they're two very important moves with big changes. A % here and there wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run.

How exactly does resource allocation explain picking his own generic edgy Pit palette swap instead of something people wanted?

It's not DP vs *insert something people want here*, it's DP vs nada. Nothing you or anyone says will change that fact, and nothing will change the fact that DP fans outnumber the haters.

 

[Deleted member]

DP is the cloniest character in SSB to date, having only two moves + associated customs and a different final smash.

I actually was a bit upset at this at first, considering I was hoping for at least a Luigi treatment on the chance he came in as a last-minute clone (with a Wolf treatment at most). But then it dawned on me; Dark Pit is the first clone in Smash that is a literal clone of the original counterpart. Having the bare minimum of changes is reasonable in hindsight.
Still, considering the canon differences between the bows rather than the wielders, it's somewhat jarring the Silver Bow doesn't have greater melee power than the Palutena Bow.

 

[Poketroopa]

Sucks that they were ok with leaving DP as a complete Pit clone, but felt that Falco needed a reflector that worked completely differently than Fox's.

 

[kunimitsu877]

well wiidude already complained about this on twitter today so i wont be supprised if he does for the rest of the week aince he did it today yesterday and the day before

 

[Vaughngief]

I kindly ask you to stop spreading misinformation. DP is the cloniest character in SSB to date, having only two moves + associated customs and a different final smash.

Sorry, but you can't tell me how I feel a character plays or feels. To each his own.

 

[kunimitsu877]

Sorry, but you can't tell me how I feel a character plays or feels. To each his own.

indeed

 

[FalKoopa]

well wiidude already b***hed about this on twitter today so i wont be supprised if he does for the rest of the week aince he did it today yesterday and the day before

wait am i allowed to say that on smashboards

Don't double post. If you have something to add, use the "Edit" button, below the post.

 

[kunimitsu877]

Don't double post. If you have something to add, use the "Edit" button, below the post.

ok thanks again sorry now then if thats all that was wrong in my post i think ill be fine

 

[ChrisP4]

I agree with what he's saying. I see clones as a bonus to the roster we have, I just don't agree on how Sakurai says most character complaints come from children a lot of die hard fans have issues with these clones.

 

[Folt]

I think what he's actually saying is that the complainers are childish, which I agree with.

 

[kunimitsu877]

I think what he's actually saying is that the complainers are childish, which I agree with.

same here sakurais not really 1 to throw insilts out there without a reason

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

same here sakurais not really 1 to throw insilts out there without a reason

I doubt it was that. That'd be a PR nightmare if he insulted the players quite specifically. He liked thought the children were the one complaining the most. It's way more reasonble to state and won't hurt sales. He can't say whatever he wants whatsoever. He has to be monitored for the sake of making sure the product still sells. Outright flaming the playerbase? Terrible idea. He even knows that. He's a bit rough, but not that much.

I don't believe for a second that was the case. Just a very poor translation of the phrase, which is a pretty mistake to make.

 

[Folt]

Remember that it's not just the competitive community who buy Smash Bros. The appeal of pitting Nintendo's stars against each other is something just about all Nintendo fans like to dream about, and the series also acts as a gateway into Nintendo's other series. That includes children who is one of the most potential consumers of Nintendo hardware, so I find it hard to believe that Sakurai meant to insult children with his words.

That said, I do not believe that Sakurai meant the entire Smash community when he said that either: Just the loud ones.

 

[kunimitsu877]

I doubt it was that. That'd be a PR nightmare if he insulted the players quite specifically. He liked thought the children were the one complaining the most. It's way more reasonble to state and won't hurt sales. He can't say whatever he wants whatsoever. He has to be monitored for the sake of making sure the product still sells. Outright flaming the playerbase? Terrible idea. He even knows that. He's a bit rough, but not that much.

I don't believe for a second that was the case. Just a very poor translation of the phrase, which is a pretty mistake to make.

awe i see probably just misunderstood his words is all

 

[Frostwraith]

More so than Melee, these clones are bonus content. They've always been that since they were planned as alt costumes.

They just happened to have some spare time to give them their own slots. We have no idea what went behind the scenes, but we know that these three characters didn't take so much time to make. It was them as alts or them as alternate versions of existing characters.

Like I stated in the previous page, if you're going to complain about them, you may as well complain about easter eggs or other bonus content that doesn't add to a game.

Developers doing stuff on their breaks isn't unheard of, especially if they're passionate enough about their work. A lot of the work was done on the clone trio when they were alts. They already had animated models, textures, voice clips and so on. All they did was to change a few moves and proprieties, something that all characters went through during balancing and testing.

Given the changes would cause statistical flukes on the records, they were given their own slots to separate their data. It might have to do with how the game's data structure is organized.

Dr. Mario was given the Tornado and the down air. Mario in 64 and Melee had them and Luigi has similar moves in this game. Nothing exactly new here. Worth noting is that Mario still has the Mario Tornado as his down aerial.
Dark Pit had the Upperdash Arm replaced with the Electroshock Arm. A model change isn't a big deal. His Final Smash is functionally based on Zelda's, so like Dr. Mario, they reused assets from another character.
Lucina is Marth without a tipper. Nothing major here either.

None of the changes required extensive planning and were made in much lesser time. These ideas likely arose when they were designing, balancing and programming Mario, Pit and Marth. Perhaps they felt leaving the characters as costumes wouldn't do enough justice to them?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

More so than Melee, these clones are bonus content. They've always been that since they were planned as alt costumes.

They just happened to have some spare time to give them their own slots. We have no idea what went behind the scenes, but we know that these three characters didn't take so much time to make. It was them as alts or them as alternate versions of existing characters.

Like I stated in the previous page, if you're going to complain about them, you may as well complain about easter eggs or other bonus content that doesn't add to a game.

Developers doing stuff on their breaks isn't unheard of, especially if they're passionate enough about their work. A lot of the work was done on the clone trio when they were alts. They already had animated models, textures, voice clips and so on. All they did was to change a few moves and proprieties, something that all characters went through during balancing and testing.

Given the changes would cause statistical flukes on the records, they were given their own slots to separate their data. It might have to do with how the game's data structure is organized.

Dr. Mario was given the Tornado and the down air. Mario in 64 and Melee had them and Luigi has similar moves in this game. Nothing exactly new here. Worth noting is that Mario still has the Mario Tornado as his down aerial.
Dark Pit had the Upperdash Arm replaced with the Electroshock Arm. A model change isn't a big deal. His Final Smash is functionally based on Zelda's, so like Dr. Mario, they reused assets from another character.
Lucina is Marth without a tipper. Nothing major here either.

None of the changes required extensive planning and were made in much lesser time. These ideas likely arose when they were designing, balancing and programming Mario, Pit and Marth. Perhaps they felt leaving the characters as costumes wouldn't do enough justice to them?

I know I said it a bit earlier, but maybe Sakurai really wanted the FLUDD to stay but couldn't think of a way to remodel it into a more reasonable "version" for Dr. Mario to use. I.E. A huge needle sprayer. It's one that requires a lot of thought, especially for those who aren't Doctors. I think it might've worked if the Mario Tornado was back, at least. He could remodel everything, even the Final Smashes and entrances, etc.

As for Dark Pit, does he do any similar attacks in Uprising to his Final Smash? That could be a reused asset easily. Also, I guess people forget he wears slightly different clothing, as you pointed out, their wrists have something different model-wise. He's not a complete recolor, but very close. Blood Falcon is more of one, ironically. I don't know if he was made before or after Captain Falcon's Smash debut. I don't think the N64 version(of Smash, not F-Zero) actually had Blood Hawk on the back of his shirt, so it might've spawned the actual idea for the character. Also, ironically, Metal Mario being separate in 64 did eventually come up again when he became a different person in Mario Kart 7, with his own personality to made this more clear.

 

[Frostwraith]

I know I said it a bit earlier, but maybe Sakurai really wanted the FLUDD to stay but couldn't think of a way to remodel it into a more reasonable "version" for Dr. Mario to use. I.E. A huge needle sprayer. It's one that requires a lot of thought, especially for those who aren't Doctors. I think it might've worked if the Mario Tornado was back, at least. He could remodel everything, even the Final Smashes and entrances, etc.

As for Dark Pit, does he do any similar attacks in Uprising to his Final Smash? That could be a reused asset easily. Also, I guess people forget he wears slightly different clothing, as you pointed out, their wrists have something different model-wise. He's not a complete recolor, but very close. Blood Falcon is more of one, ironically. I don't know if he was made before or after Captain Falcon's Smash debut. I don't think the N64 version(of Smash, not F-Zero) actually had Blood Hawk on the back of his shirt, so it might've spawned the actual idea for the character. Also, ironically, Metal Mario being separate in 64 did eventually come up again when he became a different person in Mario Kart 7, with his own personality to made this more clear.

As you know, Dark Pit's Final Smash has him firing his signature Dark Pit Staff. Staffs are one of the several weapon classes in Kid Icarus: Uprising and generally are sniper-like rifles that fire long-range shots with high damage output. As such, Dark Pit's Final Smash, despite being obviously based on Zelda's Light Arrow, is very true to source material.

Worth noting is that, in the Zelda series, the Light Arrows are long-range projectiles with high damage output...

Also, Blood Falcon existed before Smash. His debut is in F-Zero X, released before Smash 64.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As you know, Dark Pit's Final Smash has him firing his signature Dark Pit Staff. Staffs are one of the several weapon classes in Kid Icarus: Uprising and generally are sniper-like rifles that fire long-range shots with high damage output. As such, Dark Pit's Final Smash, despite being obviously based on Zelda's Light Arrow, is very true to source material.

Worth noting is that, in the Zelda series, the Light Arrows are long-range projectiles with high damage output...

Also, Blood Falcon existed before Smash. His debut is in F-Zero X, released before Smash 64.

Ah. Makes sense.

He probably couldn't easily add detail in Smash 64, so added the wording in Melee and later games when he easily could.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think Dr. Mario was added because people wanted to Mario to have his old moveset without FLUDD. It was rather useless in Brawl. It was a good decision either way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Dr. Mario was added because people wanted to Mario to have his old moveset without FLUDD. It was rather useless in Brawl. It was a good decision either way.

It would also make sense that Sakurai thinks FLUDD should stay. It's a lot more defining as an Item for him. Same with the Poltergust. Or Wario's Bike. Or, you know, Dr. Mario's Megavitamins.

Ganondorf had no sword in OOT, but did have it in the tech demo. That's probably why it showed up, to slightly show he could have the potential as a sword user, or to troll us. In Brawl/4, we at least see his canon sword. I'm glad it shows up, even though he doesn't much use it at all(which is fine with me).