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Sakurai talks about Clones in Famitsu column

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AIM0001

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So if clones didn't really take too much additional time I take it it took no effort to put Ganondorf back Smash. Seeing how they copy and pasted his stuff from Brawl and didn't make any effort to make him the real Ganondorf we've all been wanting to see. *sigh* makes me sad man....
 

Naoshi

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A free dessert is Mario Kart Mercedes Benz DLC. A free dessert is the bomb toss game they added in.
Clones that took actual time to develop and to test is wasted resources because there are so MANY things left out.

-Item frequency
-Returning Vets (Snake, Lucas, Mewtwo, ect.)
-Stamina Battles
-No online Smash run after it was Promoted to be Online

Just to name a few. They did a great job with the game but I'd rather the game be delayed than have it the way it is. So yea when Dark Pit or Lucina makes it in over this stuff I have a problem. And don't tell me I am eating a dessert when I know I am eating a appetizer and still hungry for my main course.
...I'm getting real sick of repeating myself and everyone else in this forsaken thread.

-I highly doubt those 3 were why item frequency were left out. It was probably left out due to technical issues, we don't know. Either way, these clones would not affect this. Clones are likely not done by the same people who designed these modes. There are more than 1 programmer, you know.
-Those would take much more time than the 3 clones we got now. Holy ****, do we need to repeat ourselves over 50 times?
-Special Smash's omission is weird, seeing as how Stamina Mode is in Smash Run. Once again Clones has nothing to do with this.
-It was never promised to have online. You are were reading misinformation that was thrown around. Even trying to make online working in such a mode would require WAY more work than those 3 clones combined.
 

Saltwater Gem

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Which is a clone of Zelda's and Sheik's final smash anyway.
Seriously I like Sakurai but when he tries to justify his reasons he comes out as completely moronic to say the least.
We didn't make cutscenes because Youtube!
Ice Climbers aren't playable on WiiU because 3DS!
Dr. Mario is not a skin because he jumps lower! Completely different character!
There is no Mewtwo because it's hard to port things from Melee! But characters are made completely FROM SCRATCH by the way!
Great post. I would also throw on there 'We choose characters based on super secret polls that no one has ever heard of and that we won't show you the results of!'

He made a conscious decision to put his own stuff ahead of what fans wanted and the fans who want the game, want to spend their money that keeps his paychecks coming in, are giving him a piece of their mind. I can't feel that bad for him.
 

GrownCannoli

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...I'm getting real sick of repeating myself and everyone else in this forsaken thread.

-I highly doubt those 3 were why item frequency were left out. It was probably left out due to technical issues, we don't know. Either way, these clones would not affect this. Clones are likely not done by the same people who designed these modes. There are more than 1 programmer, you know.
-Those would take much more time than the 3 clones we got now. Holy ****, do we need to repeat ourselves over 50 times?
-Special Smash's omission is weird, seeing as how Stamina Mode is in Smash Run. Once again Clones has nothing to do with this.
-It was never promised to have online. You are were reading misinformation that was thrown around. Even trying to make online working in such a mode would require WAY more work than those 3 clones combined.
Smash run WAS promoted to be online and the magazine had to state that they had their information wrong. Shows how much you know... That most likely means it was supposed to be online but Nintedo couldn't make it work. They told the magazine to take the fall and they did.

You just take whatever people say as gold don't you? You have no discernment what so ever. I don't believe them about half the stuff they said about this game so far. For example I don't think they made each character from scratch. I bet you do though. (just to prove a point)
 
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Quillion

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Knowing the clones are last-minute jobs, I still don't think they should put the effort.

At least Dr. Mario has the Melee moveset, so I see the good there, but they should have gone with the Alph/Koopaling style alt for the others.
 

Naoshi

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Smash run WAS promoted to be online and the magazine had to state that they had their information wrong. Shows how much you know... That most likely means it was supposed to be online but Nintedo couldn't make it work. They told the magazine to take the fall and they did.
That was a mistake Famitsu made. Magazines are made by humans too. This isn't the first time magazines has made mistakes.

Please tell me where Sakurai has stated Smash Run would have online.

You just take whatever people say as gold don't you? You have no discernment what so ever. I don't believe them about half the stuff they said about this game so far. For example I don't think they made each character from scratch. I bet you do though. (just to prove a point)
Now you're just throwing insults. I have done my research, and I end up believing things Sakurai say because what he said are very believable in my view. I don't blindly side with him.
 
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Frostwraith

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...I'm getting real sick of repeating myself and everyone else in this forsaken thread.

-I highly doubt those 3 were why item frequency were left out. It was probably left out due to technical issues, we don't know. Either way, these clones would not affect this. Clones are likely not done by the same people who designed these modes. There are more than 1 programmer, you know.
-Those would take much more time than the 3 clones we got now. Holy ****, do we need to repeat ourselves over 50 times?
-Special Smash's omission is weird, seeing as how Stamina Mode is in Smash Run. Once again Clones has nothing to do with this.
-It was never promised to have online. You are were reading misinformation that was thrown around. Even trying to make online working in such a mode would require WAY more work than those 3 clones combined.
This can't be said enough times.

Seriously, how about people actually learn just a little bit about game development before spouting ignorant nonsense? There's the entire Internet at our disposal, yet people don't use it for their own benefit. So much for being on the "digital era"... :rolleyes:

A normal character's development process:
- Planning
- Designing
- Modelling
- Programming
- Balancing / testing

:4drmario::4darkpit::4lucina:'s development process:
- Take the three models used as alts for :4mario::4pit::4marth: and assign them to their own slots
- Copy and paste :4mario::4pit::4marth:'s movesets
- Tweak them a little bit

Analogy time: Which is going to take longer? Writing a phrase from the beginning or copy pasting a statement and changing a few words?

Seriously, this can't be hard to think.
 
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GrownCannoli

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Ok screw this place. I am never logging in again. It's really no wonder why none of the best players post here anymore. People have no idea what they are talking about and think everything is perfect.

Enjoy your unfinished game. You and all the mods can hold hands and play Sm4sh forever. Good luck getting it into EVO a decade from now. *Spoiler alert* It's not gonna happen.
 
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Naoshi

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Ok screw this place. I am never logging in again. It's really no wonder why none of the best players post here anymore. People have no idea what they are talking about and think everything is perfect.

Enjoy your unfinished game. You and all the mods can hold hands and play Sm4sh forever. Good luck getting it into EVO a decade from now. *Spoiler alert* It's not gonna happen.
Chill the hell out. No one here is saying Sm4sh is perfect. I have plenty of complaints about this game myself and I don't think Sakurai is some god amongst game designers. You still have yet to provided me any sort of proof that Sakurai has told us Smash Run has online. Not only that but you brought up things that were already disproven. It was frustrating having to explain the same exact things over and over.
 
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DraginHikari

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Smash run WAS promoted to be online and the magazine had to state that they had their information wrong. Shows how much you know... That most likely means it was supposed to be online but Nintedo couldn't make it work. They told the magazine to take the fall and they did.

You just take whatever people say as gold don't you? You have no discernment what so ever. I don't believe them about half the stuff they said about this game so far. For example I don't think they made each character from scratch. I bet you do though. (just to prove a point)
Eh, I'd say assuming that we're being lied to is just as pointless as believe we're being told the whole truth. This isn't politics, Sakurai isn't starting wars, impacting citizens, or influncing policy. At best he is not a particularly good PR person which is something that has been shown in the past. He words things poorly and has a tenacity of sticking his foot into his mouth at times by saying things that can be nonsensical or goofy at times. So considering your view on the magazine situations that's a bit too much conspiracy for me to buy.

Ok screw this place. I am never logging in again. It's really no wonder why none of the best players post here anymore. People have no idea what they are talking about and think everything is perfect.

Enjoy your unfinished game. You and all the mods can hold hands and play Sm4sh forever. Good luck getting it into EVO a decade from now. *Spoiler alert* It's not gonna happen.
Seems like to me you just don't like having your opinions or viewpoints disagreed with and those you are debating with are either clueless or stupid. That's not the same thing as people having no idea what they're talking about.
 
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Syrek

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Ok screw this place. I am never logging in again. It's really no wonder why none of the best players post here anymore. People have no idea what they are talking about and think everything is perfect.

Enjoy your unfinished game. You and all the mods can hold hands and play Sm4sh forever. Good luck getting it into EVO a decade from now. *Spoiler alert* It's not gonna happen.
Your not exactly helping your case when you say crap like this, just so you know. You want to be heard, listened to and respected? Then I highly suggest you don't have a temper tantrum just because people disagree with your opinion, regardless of your personal feelings on a matter. Right now your coming across as childish with your vilified comments towards most of the users on Smashboards and your lame attempts to insult us. It's your choice if you want to leave of course, just don't blame us because you can't handle someone's opinion and are not willing to provide facts, as well as be open minded.
 
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Naoshi

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In all fairness, I admit I could've handled my posts in a more civil manner when I was arguing with GrownCannoli, the argument would probably turned out better in the end. It's just frustrating seeing the same things being thrown around over and over til I end up explaining myself so many times...
 

J04KlM

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So. Much. Damage. Control. Here.

There's no point in trying to raise a constructive criticism on Sakurai's decisions, the majority here are just going to antagonize you for it.

This is why i barely post anything on these boards anymore.
 

Naoshi

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So. Much. Damage. Control. Here.

There's no point in trying to raise a constructive criticism on Sakurai's decisions, the majority here are just going to antagonize you for it.

This is why i barely post anything on these boards anymore.
For the record, I don't have a problem criticizing Sakurai. But it's another thing when people blindly blame the clones for the exclusions of certain characters or modes. Or when they claim "SAKURAI HATES ____ FANS", that also bothers me.
 

Wintropy

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It's nice to see Sakurai take a stand for Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario's inclusion into Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I'm honestly getting sick and tired of people complaining about clone characters and how they are the bane of all existence, how they take up slots for characters who deserved to be in the game more like Mewtwo, Ridley, ect. As someone who really likes the inclusion of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, it bothers me when people say no one wanted these characters to be in the game, yet myself and many others did. In fact, all three characters have a large enough fan base to warrant them being in the game as playable characters in my opinion. And all three clone characters make sense in being clones. Lucina imitated Marth for a portion of the game, Dark Pit is essentially clone of Pit, therefore it only makes sense he has a move set similar to Pit's and Dr. Mario is an alternate version of Mario with some slight changes here and there, which makes sense since in many ways he's the same character more or less.

Hate them, love them, or just feel indifferent about Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, but one thing is for certain. These three characters are in the game, whether many of you like it or not, so no amount of whining, complaining and hateful slander towards these three characters will change they're existence as playable characters. I for one am very satisfied with them being they're own characters, especially Lucina, if it wasn't obvious from my avatar and signature. Just because you didn't want them in the game or wanted them regulated as alternate costumes, doesn't mean individuals, like myself, wanted them to be separate characters. Please be respectful towards those who wanted these characters in the game or have a different opinion about said characters. That is all I ask for.
I love you please marry me.

No but seriously, this is the best post I've seen thus far. I agree with everything that's been said by you, even beyond this particular post.

Overall, though, this thread is getting really, really ugly, and while it's nobody's fault, I think we'd all benefit from just remaining calm and thinking before we criticise Sakurai and each-other. It's a shame that everybody can't be happy with what we've received, because it's clear that Sakurai's worked extremely hard to make this product for us. I guarantee that, while installing any new director at the helm may result in a more "fan-friendly" game, I sincerely doubt it would have the passion and the energy that the current director puts into his games.

Everybody needs to just take a few steps back, breathe deeply, salute the sun and relax. It's just a game, nothing to get so het up over.
 
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Flaxr XIII

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So much salt, it ruined the popcorn I brought out.
I'm just sitting here maining both Dark Pit and Pit. They're both awesome.
 

Naoshi

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So the only difference from Pit and Dark Pit are their weapons.
...wow.
Yeah, I'm a tad disappointed there isn't a whole lot of differences. Hopefully the next game, if Dark Pit stays, they'll try to make him stand out more from Pit ala Falco or Luigi.
 
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Yeah, I'm a tad disappointed there isn't a whole lot of differences. Hopefully the next game, if Dark Pit stays, they'll try to make him stand out more from Pit ala Falco or Luigi.
I was hoping he had some alternation to his attacks like Doc and Lucina do. Perhaps his attacks are a bit faster or a bit more powerful...? Or perhaps they have a different sweetspot...?
But no. *sigh*
 
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The way I finally see their addition is a kind of mean to compensate IC's absence when Sakurai's team weren't finally not able to make them on the 3DS.
 
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MysticKnives

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For the record, I don't have a problem criticizing Sakurai. But it's another thing when people blindly blame the clones for the exclusions of certain characters or modes. Or when they claim "SAKURAI HATES ____ FANS", that also bothers me.
This. And the worst part is, TOO MANY of the Smash fanbase believe this is true. Heck, even now, fans still get salty about this, when Sakurai has confirmed when others have known for some time now.

The worst part is when salty fans say not that he hates fans, but when he hates the characters or franchise that doesn't get as much rep (in any sort of way) as others. I'll admit, I don't agree with a good amount of what he did, but overall, I'm pretty satisfied with this game. I just HATE the salty fans that constantly demonize Sakurai because they obviously are upset that they didn't get what they wanted. It's why the last part of Sakurai's analogy poking fun of the fanbase actually makes sense.
 

Frostwraith

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Criticism is only taken seriously if given with a calm and mature demeanor.

One of the things I criticize on the 3DS version is the stage selection. It relies too much on stages from previous games instead of bringing an entirely new selection. It's one of the (fortunately not many) gripes I have with the game, but all things considered, the game is still a solid title.

Considering the circumstances of their addition, the clones aren't really worthy of criticism. They're just bonus content the development team managed to throw in with some extra time. If you're going to criticize that, you might as well criticize every single pointless easter egg you find in other games that add nothing to the game.

The clones are something so basic to make, they could have been made during their break hours for all we know.
 
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Mysteltainn

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Ok screw this place. I am never logging in again. It's really no wonder why none of the best players post here anymore. People have no idea what they are talking about and think everything is perfect.

Enjoy your unfinished game. You and all the mods can hold hands and play Sm4sh forever. Good luck getting it into EVO a decade from now. *Spoiler alert* It's not gonna happen.
See you next week, lol.

There's a few bags of salt by the door in case you didn't get enough... It's a slippery path out there. Geez, it's one thing to dislike the game and its direction, but it's quite another to spout pure salt. Calm down a little.
 
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Vaughngief

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So the only difference from Pit and Dark Pit are their weapons.
...wow.
Eh, I wouldn't say that. I've tried both out for a bit in Smash 3DS and Dark Pit feels heavier, tad slower, slightly worse recovery, and hits a bit harder. Nothing noticeable at first glance though aside from the design. That's just my input though.
 

Utena

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i wish lucina was just a costume for marth... then marth could have been less nerfed, and i could use a superior lucina with a sword that can actually tipper instead of that useless PoS she currently has.
 

Kenith

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The only disappointment I have with the clones is that Dark Pit doesn't use Pit's Brawl moveset.
But, considering how many changes they would've had to make, I can see why they didn't do it.
 

Blargg888

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i wish lucina was just a costume for marth... then marth could have been less nerfed, and i could use a superior lucina with a sword that can actually tipper instead of that useless PoS she currently has.
I'm glad Lucina isn't a costume for Marth, because now I can use Lucina's awesome sword instead of the PoS Marth has. :)
 

Networker1

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Eh, I wouldn't say that. I've tried both out for a bit in Smash 3DS and Dark Pit feels heavier, tad slower, slightly worse recovery, and hits a bit harder. Nothing noticeable at first glance though aside from the design. That's just my input though.
I've heard very similar things from a friend with a 3ds. So Dark Pit has a bit more variation than previously thought.
 

PeterJude

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I think the best part here is people trying to say: "But Sakurai is a liar Dark Pit just has Zelda/Shiek's final smash!!!" Yes, that's exactly the point, he's a clone. They haven't wasted development time on creating a raft of completely new assets for them beyond that is reasonable. They had the usual stuff for an alt, and use what they could to flesh out a full character. Creating a full final smash would have taken much more development time, and ultimately the issue was Dark Pit using Pit's final smash, not Dark Pit's final smash being a clone of another.

You can't be angry at them making clones, complaining about "Oh noes, the development times!!!" only to then complain that they did the right thing by development time with his final smash. He never said his final smash wasn't a clone of another, he just said it wasn't Pit's.

A free dessert is Mario Kart Mercedes Benz DLC. A free dessert is the bomb toss game they added in.
Clones that took actual time to develop and to test is wasted resources because there are so MANY things left out.

-Item frequency
-Returning Vets (Snake, Lucas, Mewtwo, ect.)
-Stamina Battles
-No online Smash run after it was Promoted to be Online

Just to name a few. They did a great job with the game but I'd rather the game be delayed than have it the way it is. So yea when Dark Pit or Lucina makes it in over this stuff I have a problem. And don't tell me I am eating a dessert when I know I am eating a appetizer and still hungry for my main course.

*But we will just have to agree to disagree. At least we can both agree that it's a shame they didn't make a game that brought the community together.
Again, they have categorically stated that the time use was the virtually the same as the time use to make the alts, which they had planned. They did not leave out any characters, game modes and such because of it. Complaining about anything to do with characters when talking about the clones is a poor, weak argument, not matched by t

Let's put it this way. With how similar Marth/Lucina and Dark Pit/Pit are, it wouldn't have even slightly mattered if all they did was give Alph some of Olimar's custom moves as his default to make him different. It would have meant that All-Star mode wasn't messed up, and Olimar wouldn't have had only 1/4 of the amount of costumes that Little Mac got.
But Dark Pit and Lucina don't just have custom moves of Pit and Marth. That not how this was done, that's not how any of this was done.

So if clones didn't really take too much additional time I take it it took no effort to put Ganondorf back Smash. Seeing how they copy and pasted his stuff from Brawl and didn't make any effort to make him the real Ganondorf we've all been wanting to see. *sigh* makes me sad man....
It seems that each of the returning characters were treated as individual characters (model, animations and such). Ganondorf, despite having been originally made as a clone, is not similar enough to have simply made from Captain Falcon anymore. As they said, they remade the characters from scratch (probably due to the new engine).
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think Dark Pit does deserve a slight bit of criticism. He should've been slightly more different than he is currently. But if people are constantly reporting that he's not entirely identical save 3 moves, then never mind. That's way more forgivable and does show he's been made to have a different enough way to be used.
 

Blargg888

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So if clones didn't really take too much additional time I take it it took no effort to put Ganondorf back Smash. Seeing how they copy and pasted his stuff from Brawl and didn't make any effort to make him the real Ganondorf we've all been wanting to see. *sigh* makes me sad man....
Funny. Ganondorf certainly doesn't feel at all the same. Nor does Toon Link. They're both so different from how they were in Brawl.
 

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I'm glad Lucina isn't a costume for Marth, because now I can use Lucina's awesome sword instead of the PoS Marth has. :)
how is a sword that cant tipper better.
if you dont suck at the game and space appropriately you should be tippering anyways.
 

Blargg888

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how is a sword that cant tipper better.
if you dont suck at the game and space appropriately you should be tippering anyways.
Because I hate the tipper. Also I just like Lucina more as a character. Marth has always been one of my least fav. characters in Smash.
 

ChikoLad

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This still does not justify making Dr. Mario a clone over Alph, especially since Dr. Mario is trash in this game, so not even "MELEE FANS WILL LIKE HIM" is a good enough argument. On that note, Wireframe Mac could even have been a clone.

/thread
 

Weeman

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This still does not justify making Dr. Mario a clone over Alph, especially since Dr. Mario is trash in this game, so not even "MELEE FANS WILL LIKE HIM" is a good enough argument. On that note, Wireframe Mac could even have been a clone.

/thread
Maybe because it would hinder Olimar's uniquness? I mean Mario, Marth and Pit are pretty average fighters as far as playing as them, so making clones of them don't take much out of them, while Olimar is a pretty unique fighter in comparison to everyone in the roster.
There's also the fact that they would have had to alter the properties of the Pikmin as well, wich would have taken more time.
Also how is Dr. Mario trash?
 

ChikoLad

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Maybe because it would hinder Olimar's uniquness? I mean Mario, Marth and Pit are pretty average fighters as far as playing as them, so making clones of them don't take much out of them, while Olimar is a pretty unique fighter in comparison to everyone in the roster.
There's also the fact that they would have had to alter the properties of the Pikmin as well, wich would have taken more time.
Also how is Dr. Mario trash?
Not really, since Alph could have been an interesting variation BECAUSE the unique playstyle of Olimar accommodates for unique variations.

And clearly, hindering the uniqueness of other characters is not a problem, since clone characters exist at all. And then you have Lucina, who is literally Marth without the one thing that makes Marth most unique, and a little faster and lighter than him.

And I'd rather one genuinely constructive clone than 3 that feel like they serve little purpose from a gameplay stand point.

And Dr. Mario is objectively worse than Mario in every possible way in Smash 4. He's slow, has bad recovery, F-air doesn't meteor smash and doesn't do much knockback to make up for it (and is still rather slow), he can't combo nearly as well, while Mario is a combo master in this game, and can get character sup into the 60% in seconds, with the opponent having no hope of escaping if the combos are executed properly.

Dr. Mario's only real advantage is his moves do more damage and his Smash attacks may have more knockback, but it's not like Mario is lacking in this department in the first place, and he more than makes up for it since he can deal even more damage in a quicker amount of time through his combos. Plus, Mario's air game is much better, which is important in Smash 4, as off stage play is so prominent in the game.

Also, Mario Tornado got a huge nerf, while FLUDD was actually buffed quite a bit, and is now a very effective gimping tool, and can even be used for horizontal recovery (Side B away from stage, then Down B).

Dr. Mario is basically Brawl Mario with the Mario Tornado as his Down B. And Smash 4 Mario is WAY better than Brawl Mario.
 
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