Sakurai talks about Clones in Famitsu column

[Vintage Creep]

Sakurai should stop making Smash because he didn't satisfy a group of fans? Well, okay. Whatever you guys say.


Responses in the bolded.

1) Ice Climbers' exclusion from WiiU isn't excusable at all. But again, they still have to justify the 3DS version beyond the "We want to sell more copies" reason.
2) There is absolutely no need for Dr. Mario to be different from Mario except for the F.L.U.D.D. And really, you say characters can't have different stats as alternates right after a game with CUSTOMIZABLE STATS AND MOVES gets released? Please.
3) He said that as an answer to the question "Where's Mewtwo?". He said because it's too hard to port him. Like a couple of weeks before he said characters weren't simply ported but made from scratch. He's straight up bull****ting us.

 

[LancerStaff]

Do you mean DM? Dark Pit and Pit have the same customs. Pit would only have to lose one custom to get Dark Pit's Electroshock arm, not a big loss.

Mario would have to lose some Fludd variant for Mario Tornado, but honestly, I'm sure everyone would be happy about that change.

I've found that even most casual players turn them off. Besides, it's not like the Dark Pit staff is a great FS anyway, it's basically just a lazy Light Arrow reskin.

They do? I've seen way more Dark Pit haters than fans.

Their arrow and Arm customs work differently. It's mostly the arm customs, since all of them deal more damage and send the opponent at a different angle.

Not everybody. Dr. Mario fans want his unique A moves, like his Nair.

Most casual players I know leave them on.

I've seen more fans then haters. That, and there's three fanbases supporting the clones, versus the loud minority that are the clone haters.

 

[PeterJude]

1) Ice Climbers' exclusion from WiiU isn't excusable at all. But again, they still have to justify the 3DS version beyond the "We want to sell more copies" reason.
2) There is absolutely no need for Dr. Mario to be different from Mario except for the F.L.U.D.D. And really, you say characters can't have different stats as alternates right after a game with CUSTOMIZABLE STATS AND MOVES gets released? Please.
3) He said that as an answer to the question "Where's Mewtwo?". He said because it's too hard to port him. Like a couple of weeks before he said characters weren't simply ported but made from scratch. He's straight up bull****ting us.

1) "We want to sell more copies" is a pretty solid reason. They are a business, not a charity. If you want to blame anyone, blame those who didn't buy a Wii U at release, and those who still haven't now*
2) Characters in uncustomised modes can't have different stats, and the only unique custom moves (that is, not an alteration of the original) are for the Miis and Palutena
3) I think he meant it as a response to "why not just port him". They did make the characters from scratch, and Mewtwo wasn't (to our knowledge) planned. Also, can you link where he was directly asked that? I recall that being an answer in general, not an answer to Mewtwo directly

*That is, if you expect Nintendo to act as a charity, you should act like one to them too

 

[Terotrous]

Not everybody. Dr. Mario fans want his unique A moves, like his Nair.

I don't really see anyone complaining in PM, where Dr Mario is a skin and they just gave everything that was good about him to Mario instead.

And yes, there are minor custom move variations between Pit and Dark Pit, but it's not really worth another character slot. I think most people hoped that the custom moves would be used for more substantial variants, like with Ness getting Lucas's moves and Fox getting Wolf's moves, rather than just minor property variants of the same move.

 

[Naoshi]

1) Ice Climbers' exclusion from WiiU isn't excusable at all. But again, they still have to justify the 3DS version beyond the "We want to sell more copies" reason.
2) There is absolutely no need for Dr. Mario to be different from Mario except for the F.L.U.D.D. And really, you say characters can't have different stats as alternates right after a game with CUSTOMIZABLE STATS AND MOVES gets released? Please.
3) He said that as an answer to the question "Where's Mewtwo?". He said because it's too hard to port him. Like a couple of weeks before he said characters weren't simply ported but made from scratch. He's straight up bull****ting us.

1) It's justifiable in HIS view if he wants the roster between both versions to remain the same. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean he's completely in the wrong for that. I don't like it either.
2)Some of Dr. Mario's moves have differences like better damage and what not. Stuff that isn't completely possible in customizations. What is the gain of making him an alt? Giving him a slot did not affect the game's developmental process in any meaningful way.
3) That wasn't a response to a question about Mewtwo. He was speaking generally.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't really see anyone complaining in PM, where Dr Mario is a skin and they just gave everything that was good about him to Mario instead.

And yes, there are minor custom move variations between Pit and Dark Pit, but it's not really worth another character slot. I think most people hoped that the custom moves would be used for more substantial variants, like with Ness getting Lucas's moves and Fox getting Wolf's moves, rather than just minor property variants of the same move.

No, but people would rather have him as a character with unique moves, haters be damned.

 

[PeterJude]

I don't really see anyone complaining in PM, where Dr Mario is a skin and they just gave everything that was good about him to Mario instead.

And yes, there are minor custom move variations between Pit and Dark Pit, but it's not really worth another character slot. I think most people hoped that the custom moves would be used for more substantial variants, like with Ness getting Lucas's moves and Fox getting Wolf's moves, rather than just minor property variants of the same move.

Exactly, they made a mix of Mario and Dr. Mario. Sakurai produced Mario as they did in Brawl, and in order to have any differences they needed to make Dr Mario his own character. It didn't take anything away from the game, why does it bother you?

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

Seems like some people here are expert video game developers.

 

[PeterJude]

Seems like some people here are expert video game developers.

Source

 

[guedes the brawler]

my only though is that giving her own slot over is ridiculous. i'm not evne a fan of pikmin and lov eFE; and this is really obvious, marth did not need "Simple Mode"; but Olimar might have benefitted form having one.

having Lucina before Chrom is ridiculous too

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That applies only to Dark Pit. Doc and Lucina have plenty of fans.

Doesn't help that Dark Pit is completely identical to Pit except for his arrows, Electroshock Arm and Final Smash. Poor guy.

It doesn't help his design is a literal texture swap of Pit's. Also, he represents for many people Sakurai's KI bias, so to speak.

 

[Terotrous]

Exactly, they made a mix of Mario and Dr. Mario. Sakurai produced Mario as they did in Brawl, and in order to have any differences they needed to make Dr Mario his own character. It didn't take anything away from the game, why does it bother you?

People always say clones take no effort, but they obviously take some, Dr Mario does have some unique properties and such and no doubt required at least some balance testing. I'm sure that if we sacrificed all 3 clones we could get at least one "semi-clone" character, ala Falco, and it'd be a much better trade.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

1) Ice Climbers' exclusion from WiiU isn't excusable at all. But again, they still have to justify the 3DS version beyond the "We want to sell more copies" reason.
2) There is absolutely no need for Dr. Mario to be different from Mario except for the F.L.U.D.D. And really, you say characters can't have different stats as alternates right after a game with CUSTOMIZABLE STATS AND MOVES gets released? Please.
3) He said that as an answer to the question "Where's Mewtwo?". He said because it's too hard to port him. Like a couple of weeks before he said characters weren't simply ported but made from scratch. He's straight up bull****ting us.

3) That's merely the approach that you decided to take on the matter without any more solid information to make that kind of connection. If you read that article about the Melee porting, know that not everything that Sakurai says in Famitsu is 100% transcribed and translated into that website, most of what was written there were just rough lines of text instead of an actual column. Filling lack on the information with your own fabricated pieces is not going to do you any good.

People always say clones take no effort, but they obviously take some, Dr Mario does have some unique properties and such and no doubt required at least some balance testing. I'm sure that if we sacrificed all 3 clones we could get at least one "semi-clone" character, ala Falco, and it'd be a much better trade.

No, you are not "sure" because that is not the way it works.

 

[LancerStaff]

People always say clones take no effort, but they obviously take some, Dr Mario does have some unique properties and such and no doubt required at least some balance testing. I'm sure that if we sacrificed all 3 clones we could get at least one "semi-clone" character, ala Falco, and it'd be a much better trade.

You're sure? Prove it.

 

[PeterJude]

People always say clones take no effort, but they obviously take some, Dr Mario does have some unique properties and such and no doubt required at least some balance testing. I'm sure that if we sacrificed all 3 clones we could get at least one "semi-clone" character, ala Falco, and it'd be a much better trade.

Again, that's not how the development cycle worked from what we've been told. The main characters were made from scratch, the clones were promoted alts. Comparing them, regardless of how much time you think it takes is ridiculous considering what we've been told. The semi-clones, from everything we have been told, have been built from the ground up, even if their moves are similar. If that is the case, then there really isn't likely to be any time difference in making Toon Link as opposed to Captain Falcon.

Again, this isn't an either or situation. This is a debate about whether they should be alts or clones, and there really is no reason for them not to be clones beyond people having a sook that their favourite character didn't make it in.

 

[Terotrous]

Again, that's not how the development cycle worked from what we've been told. The main characters were made from scratch, the clones were promoted alts. Comparing them, regardless of how much time you think it takes is ridiculous considering what we've been told. The semi-clones, from everything we have been told, have been built from the ground up, even if their moves are similar. If that is the case, then there really isn't likely to be any time difference in making Toon Link as opposed to Captain Falcon.

Then promote one alt and take the time to actually change all of their B moves and some of their A moves instead. Same result.

I'd be fine with Dark Pit if he had totally different weaponry from Pit rather than just the Side B. And ideally his Up B should have less range but be an attack or something.

 

[TheAnvil]

With the way the Pikmin work it could have taken some serious rebalancing. Not exactly the most major thing either.



People love a bandwagon. To be honest it seems mostly down to people not even realising who Dark Pit is, and the fact that the Japanese name is "Black Pit". It made him sound like a recolour given a full character in the game.

I haven't really understood much of the rage considering that Dark Pit would have made a solid character even not as a clone. But I guess many couldn't get past the name. I doubt anyone would care if he was called Tip or George or something.

Let's put it this way. With how similar Marth/Lucina and Dark Pit/Pit are, it wouldn't have even slightly mattered if all they did was give Alph some of Olimar's custom moves as his default to make him different. It would have meant that All-Star mode wasn't messed up, and Olimar wouldn't have had only 1/4 of the amount of costumes that Little Mac got.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then promote one alt and take the time to actually change all of their B moves and some of their A moves instead. Same result.

I'd be fine with Dark Pit if he had totally different weaponry from Pit rather than just the Side B. And ideally his Up B should have less range but be an attack or something.

Or we could just have three. Yeah, three is good.

 

[Terotrous]

Or we could just have three. Yeah, three is good.

It's really more like 0.3. They're all like a tenth of a character. If we could get even one character with totally different B moves that'd be more variation than all three of them have combined.

 

[SmashBro99]

I really don't like clones but I agree with him about Dr. Mario, no Dr. Mario fans would want it to be just a skin.

Lucina being a clone makes perfect sense, fits her character.

But Dark Pit is unforgivable, so he can have a different side B and a different (Zelda/Sheik's) Final Smash? Bias, bias everywhere.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's really more like 0.3. They're all like a tenth of a character. If we could get even one character with totally different B moves that'd be more variation than all three of them have combined.

Or we could just have three clones.

Yaknow, just quit with your bargaining. It's not helping your argument at all. You're just saying "in my opinion blah blah is better then yadda yadda and Sakurai should of did that" attempting to justify your veiwpoint. Don't work like that.

 

[Terotrous]

Or we could just have three clones.

Yaknow, just quit with your bargaining. It's not helping your argument at all. You're just saying "in my opinion blah blah is better then yadda yadda and Sakurai should of did that" attempting to justify your veiwpoint. Don't work like that.

And you're not also doing that?

The fact remains that most people hate the clones, so you're not really going to find a lot of support for what Sakurai ultimately went with.

 

[LancerStaff]

And you're not also doing that?

The fact remains that most people hate the clones, so you're not really going to find a lot of support for what Sakurai ultimately went with.

The fact remains that most people like the clones, so you're not really going to find a lot of support for what Sakurai ultimately didn't go with.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, it's pretty obvious that responding to you is pointless.

 

[LancerStaff]

Okay, it's pretty obvious that responding to you is pointless.

I pulled some "facts" out of thin air like you did and formed a statement out of it. What did I do wrong that you didn't?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

And you're not also doing that?

The fact remains that most people hate the clones, so you're not really going to find a lot of support for what Sakurai ultimately went with.

Most people? No, not really.

Hatedoms regarding issues of this kind tend to be a minority, a very loud minority, which creates the illusion of a big group. For all this people whining there will always remains a silent majority that it's ok with the additions of this clones or simply don't care and find no reason to make this a big deal, like me.
Post-Brawl you would have thought that ROB was the most hated character ever based on the complaints of the haters. But the amount of people that disliked him was so minimal that their voices faded away and nowadays most players don't even recall why he was hated in the first place.

 

[Terotrous]

Post-Brawl you would have thought that ROB was the most hated character ever based on the complaints of the haters. But the amount of people that disliked him was so minimal that their voices faded away and nowadays most players don't even recall why he was hated in the first place.

I only remember him being hated for a very short time when he was first revealed, because people expected there to be more exciting characters in his place. At least his playstyle is quite unique.

 

[LancerStaff]

I only remember him being hated for a very short time when he was first revealed, because people expected there to be more exciting characters in his place. At least his playstyle is quite unique.

I don't see how one somewhat individual character is better then three straight-up clones. What about those who didn't become clones? Alph fans are pretty miffed at how he wasn't a clone.

 

[Blargg888]

Dr. Mario really isn't even a clone anymore. He plays so differently from Mario. IMO, as a Mario player, it feels like a new experience.

 

[Syrek]

It's nice to see Sakurai take a stand for Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario's inclusion into Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I'm honestly getting sick and tired of people complaining about clone characters and how they are the bane of all existence, how they take up slots for characters who deserved to be in the game more like Mewtwo, Ridley, ect. As someone who really likes the inclusion of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, it bothers me when people say no one wanted these characters to be in the game, yet myself and many others did. In fact, all three characters have a large enough fan base to warrant them being in the game as playable characters in my opinion. And all three clone characters make sense in being clones. Lucina imitated Marth for a portion of the game, Dark Pit is essentially clone of Pit, therefore it only makes sense he has a move set similar to Pit's and Dr. Mario is an alternate version of Mario with some slight changes here and there, which makes sense since in many ways he's the same character more or less.

Hate them, love them, or just feel indifferent about Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, but one thing is for certain. These three characters are in the game, whether many of you like it or not, so no amount of whining, complaining and hateful slander towards these three characters will change they're existence as playable characters. I for one am very satisfied with them being they're own characters, especially Lucina, if it wasn't obvious from my avatar and signature. Just because you didn't want them in the game or wanted them regulated as alternate costumes, doesn't mean individuals, like myself, wanted them to be separate characters. Please be respectful towards those who wanted these characters in the game or have a different opinion about said characters. That is all I ask for.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

My response to the people who still whine after this.

 

[Blargg888]

I feel like I have to say this, but IMO, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario being in this game is one of the best choices Sakurai made in terms of characters. They really do offer a different experience from their counterparts. Mario was always one of my favorites, and just playing Dr. Mario, one can easily tell how different they are in terms of move effects and strategy. Dark Pit has the Electroshock Arm, enough said. And finally, as a person who as always despised Marth (He has always been my loneliest character) I must say that Lucina is my #3 most favorite character in Smash 4. She's so fun to play! I've always disliked Marth's tipper, so Lucina to me was like Marth, except actually fun.

 

[OnettGirl]

TBH I honestly feel like many of the people who are complaining about Dark Pit and Lucina [mostly Dark Pit] don't even know who they are, why they are the way they are, and how they impacted their game. [I'm not pointing fingers, it's just a thing in general that i've seen on many different websites.]

Going off with Dark Pit for a second [since it sounds like people are complaining about him the loudest] there's a legitimate reason why he looks exactly like Pit, just painted black. He has his own creation story [which I don't really want to spoil here], his own completely fleshed out personality, and he's a very important character to the plot of KI:U, even if he looks just like Pit with a dark overlay. The same thing can be said for Lucina. They both have perfectly valid reason for being their own character despite them being 90% similar to their original counterpart [that being Pit and Marth]. Honestly if you don't know who the character is, why they are that way, and what they have to do with the plot of their game then you have no right trying to give reasons why they "don't belong". [Again, not pointing fingers, its just a thing i've been seeing everywhere].

Going back to the point of this topic I agree with Sakurai. Why hate on a clone when said clone did nothing but add to the game. Said clone didn't get in the way of any dev time, nor did it take someone else's "character slot" [which will be said time and time again that character slots don't exist]. Why turn down free desert? Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario didn't "prevent" characters like Ridley or Mewtwo from getting into the game, and I honestly don't think you can argue that point. There's potential that none of the characters on the list "prevented" anyone from getting in. Maybe Sakurai sees Ridley as too good of a boss battle to make him a fully fleshed out character [which is honestly the idea i'm leaning towards most]. Or maybe Gamefreak didn't want Mewtwo in the game and had a different direction. There are other factors beyond "Sakurai wanted it in the game" that affect a characters inclusion, I think Snake illustrated this point perfectly.

I dunno, I just don't see the point of arguing about clones, and this is setting aside the fact that I like Dark Pit. If you have to call him something other than Dark/Black Pit call him Pittoo or something.

 

[GrownCannoli]

Ill just say that Sakurai made the game he wanted and not the game we wanted.

I use the term "we" loosely because I understand there is a crowd of people that think Melee is a gimmick/glitch fest that despise it and are happy that this game is not like it. I'll never understand why people think that way or why this game is the way it is but I am sure they think the same about me and why I wish it was different.

Clones are not a free dessert btw. Nice try but to anyone with discernment we can see right threw it. I'd be happy with a million clones if the roster had returning vets. (assuming they are not on the Wii U version)

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's nice to see Sakurai take a stand for Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario's inclusion into Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I'm honestly getting sick and tired of people complaining about clone characters and how they are the bane of all existence, how they take up slots for characters who deserved to be in the game more like Mewtwo, Ridley, ect. As someone who really likes the inclusion of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, it bothers me when people say no one wanted these characters to be in the game, yet myself and many others did. In fact, all three characters have a large enough fan base to warrant them being in the game as playable characters in my opinion. And all three clone characters make sense in being clones. Lucina imitated Marth for a portion of the game, Dr. Pit is essentially clone of Pit, therefore it only makes sense he has a move set similar to Pit's and Dr. Mario is an alternate version of Mario with some slight changes here and there, which makes sense since in many ways he's the same character more or less.

Hate them, love them, or just feel indifferent about Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario, but one thing is for certain. These three characters are in the game, whether many of you like it or not, so no amount of whining, complaining and hateful slander towards these three characters will change they're existence as playable characters. I for one am very satisfied with them being they're own characters, especially Lucina, if it wasn't obvious from my avatar and signature. Just because you didn't want them in the game or wanted them regulated as alternate costumes, doesn't mean individuals, like myself, wanted them to be separate characters. Please be respectful towards those who wanted these characters in the game or have a different opinion about said characters. That is all I ask for.

Yeah, I think this should be the closing sentence for this thread. I think now might be a good time to lock this before we basically see filler hate here.

 

[Naoshi]

Clones are not a free dessert btw. Nice try but to anyone with discernment we can see right threw it. I'd be happy with a million clones if the roster had returning vets. (assuming they are not on the Wii U version)

Is this even an argument I'm reading? Please explain yourself why they are not free desserts.

 

[2004Zilla]

Dr. Pit

I would like to see a photoshop of this plz.

 

[Cherenando]

Solid Snake is a clone , yet he isn't on the game
not even Liquid , or Solidus , not even Naked Snake wich wasn't a clone

Sakurai Bias...

Spoiler

Kek

srsly though I hope he talks about why he's not in the game , as he did with the IC

 

[Syrek]

I would like to see a photoshop of this plz.

Hahaha, my bad! To all those who can draw, make Dr. Pit a reality lol XD

 

[GrownCannoli]

Is this even an argument I'm reading? Please explain yourself why they are not free desserts.

A free dessert is Mario Kart Mercedes Benz DLC. A free dessert is the bomb toss game they added in.
Clones that took actual time to develop and to test is wasted resources because there are so MANY things left out.

-Item frequency
-Returning Vets (Snake, Lucas, Mewtwo, ect.)
-Stamina Battles
-No online Smash run after it was Promoted to be Online

Just to name a few. They did a great job with the game but I'd rather the game be delayed than have it the way it is. So yea when Dark Pit or Lucina makes it in over this stuff I have a problem. And don't tell me I am eating a dessert when I know I am eating a appetizer and still hungry for my main course.

*But we will just have to agree to disagree. At least we can both agree that it's a shame they didn't make a game that brought the community together.