Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I cannot believe Sakurai doesn't have the vision to make Smash into something more. There's only so much we can expect when the creator of our game is trying to make it into a party game, actively removing competitive elements. Ugh.

Outside of Wavedashing, what is removed that had depth?

 

[MP8]

Shouldn't really be an issue if he said this or not. It's not going to stop people from playing competitively. Just disagree with the man and move on, keep playing your Smash game and stop being sensitive/over-dramatic.

Either way, I'm grateful for his service in being the author and usher for this great series.

 

[Acryte]

SMASH would DIE. Look at Playstation-brawl for comparison.

PSASBR died because the concept was trash. The KO mechanic was a poorly fleshed out idea that never should have made it past testing.

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

I wish people would actually look at the posts of people who also speak Japanese that correct this poorly translated article.

 

[AZ_Spellbound]

 

[Gidy]

Kind of glad this is his last game.

 

[QWA]

Outside of Wavedashing, what is removed that had depth?

Other movement options such as dash dancing, techniques that speed up the game (l and z cancelling), both of which are present in the first two games. Another thing that I personally miss is the ability to play how I want to play without being at a disadvantage from the start. I'm a very aggressive player, so I don't do too well in the defense-oriented environments of Brawl or Smash 4. In Melee and 64, you can play your character however you want (in most match ups) and still do well if you know what you're doing.

 

[Batpimp]

So who's gonna mod the game? I am ready to help!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Outside of Wavedashing, what is removed that had depth?

Weight and speed transitioning into air movement.
This is the only thing I really miss since it's a logical thing to me.

 

[Squii The Fish]

I am tired.
I am going to sleep sakurai
I don't think I am going to wake up.
Nothing but dreams now.

Spoiler

Thanks Sakurai

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Other movement options such as dash dancing, techniques that speed up the game (l and z cancelling), both of which are present in the first two games. Another thing that I personally miss is the ability to play how I want to play without being at a disadvantage from the start. I'm a very aggressive player, so I don't do too well in the defense-oriented environments of Brawl or Smash 4. In Melee and 64, you can play your character however you want (in most match ups) and still do well if you know what you're doing.

This is simply not true. What about people that want to play defensively in Melee? Defence is less of an option in Melee than offence is in Smash 4.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Kind of glad this is his last game.

Don't get your hopes up, he said the same thing after Brawl.
Edit: Sorry for double post. The thread is so goddamn fast.

 

[HanAmes]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Fighting Games warrant competition.
Smash is a fighting game.

Therefore,
Smash warrants competition.

True or False?

 

[dude it's raining]

I'm really interested in what the main reasons are for ppl leaving smash. Sakurai seems to think that not being able to win b/c it's hard to win is it. I wonder how that factor compares to ppl's lives getting to the point where they don't have time for gaming. Or maybe disappointment in new releases. Or maybe their local scene diminishes/they end up w/ no one to play with.

 

[platomaker]

PSASBR died because the concept was trash. The KO mechanic was a poorly fleshed out idea that never should have made it past testing.

Exactly that, and still more to it. They had a concept and rules were defined to a single mechanism that wasn't all that appealing to the majority of users, not the hardcore users who are still using it (and still want to play it) but to a certain group of users who play ...what's the word... "not-hardcorely" I want to say.

I played the game and even discovered a few combos with that gunner guy, but then realized it was for naught since the kills were tied to only one move. Not a lot of people to play against either. What's the point? Could have been fixed in the sequel, but that didn't survive.

 

[ToonKake]

Funny thing is while im readin dis Sakurai even said IF E Wanted too he coulda made Smash 4 More Like Melee lol but i actually dont like how he said Competitive Smash has no Future i find it wack cuz look how long Melee has been going for & with the Rising community of PM& Smash 4??

 

[ruhtraeel]

I think when people keep saying that a game can be fun casually and competitively, it's a bit more complicated than originally perceived. I can see where Samurai is concerned, and that it's not total BS like many people claim it is. I first noticed this when I was playing with some of my casual friends.

They all said something with the same general idea behind it: playing Melee with me wasn't fun because getting destroyed and overwhelmed with Falco/Fox pressure felt bad. They felt that at least in Brawl, even though I was still fundamentally better than them, the difference in skill wasn't felt nearly as much, and they felt that they still had a chance, etc.

As much as it is tempting to just tell them to play more, get better and learn how to deal with the pressure, one must understand that everyone is different, and not everyone wants to play and learn at such a serious level; they just want to mess around.

This is where I think the problem lies: when the skill ceiling is high for a game, it automatically deters casual players from playing the game, especially in a primarily local game where the casual and competitive groups often mix. I feel like having a good matchmaking system may help fix this issue, where casual players will play other casual players, and vice versa for competitive players. This has to be done well though, as I, for example, hate being able to see my own statistics; I only want to play more and get better, no matter what the result is, and I find it all too easy for myself to get caught up in statistics.

 

[Meru.]

You are correct. The word "only" (だけ) is used in that paragraph. The translator just missed it. It only happened to be the most important word that he missed.

I think it's a shame particularly because this slightly mistranslated part gets bolded and part of it gets included in the title. Thus, the mistranslated part has got emphasized and has caused a lot of unnecessary confusion.

Quite a pity since other than this (and the downgraded part) the translation is quite accurate...

 

[RanserSSF4]

Although I go get Sakurai's point and he did said "PERSONALLY" (his opinion), the fact he said "competitive smash has no future" is so beyond me!

He still doesn't realize why Melee is still going strong even to this day! heck, Brawl had a competitive for 5 to 6 years, and so will Smash 4.

Keep in mind, we all knew this was going to happen and we know Sakurai doesn't udnerstand about competitive smash to begin with!

 

[Reila]

He is completely right.

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

I think it's a shame particularly because this slightly mistranslated part gets bolded and part of it gets included in the title. Thus, the mistranslated part has got emphasized and has caused a lot of unnecessary confusion.

Quite a pity since other than this (and the downgraded part) the translation is quite accurate...

For real. IF PEOPLE WOULD JUST READ THE COMMENTS THAT YOU, ME AND A FEW OTHER PEOPLE HAVE POSTED THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS A POOR TRANSLATION ERROR!!

 

[pieisamazing]

I think he's just talking about Smash 4.

 

[platomaker]

I think he's just talking about Smash 4.

I think he's talking about SMASH as in the franchise. Its only competitor died out for focusing only on the hardcore with crappy effort.

 

[TKOWL]

"Wah people are playing games differently than I intended and creating a massive audience that keeps their core alive! How dare they not play them by my intentions!"

 

[Nefnoj]

I've played Smash for just about as long as I've been playing video games, and I've never been a competitive player... I've never wavedashed effectively, I have no clue what L-Cancelling is, and "tech" sounds weird.

But I really dislike the direction that Smash is going. I loved Brawl, I loved Melee... But how am I supposed to transition a casual to a competitive if they keep dumbing it down? How are they supposed to appeal to a greater audience? I really hope Project M threatens the sales of Smash games, that way the good folks at Nintendo notice that the direction that Smash is going is poor. Too bad Nintendo cares more about making games than making money.
Pah.
At least Sakurai is good at thinking up new moves for characters, I'll give him that much.

Someday... A Smash Bros. game with all characters, all stages, all gametypes, to the playstyle of Melee... That would make them so much money, and it could be the last Smash Bros... Because it would be perfect.

 

[arcticfox8]

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[smashboy12]

Why can't people be appreciative?
Sakurai works so hard to make these games. But when he makes a statement about the competitive side everybody gets pissed off. Can you guys just play Smash the way you want to? He isn't forcing you to play it casually!

 

[Comet7]

I think Sakurai needs to look back at what Melee was before the competitive scene developed. Was it insanely fast? No. Did it require a ton of inputs? No. Was it fun for casuals? Yes. About ATs for Melee, let's be honest; casuals don't know about them, so they wouldn't have to play fast to win. So, assuming this is true, are you just cutting off the competitive audience because you don't like it, Sakurai, or are you blind?

 

[KurashiDragon]

Looking at this from a neutral point of view, it seems like Sakurai was stating that he doesn't wanna go to far in the competitive direction which I can understand. If it alienates casuals, smash would lose a lot of it's primary gamers. Hardcore people on this site like to think that competitive gamers like them are the majority but that's just not true. No matter how much people don't like to think this, Smash is, first and foremost, a party game and should remain as such.

However, what Sakurai didn't state which I think is more interesting is a balanced perspective. To make a game simple, fun, and full of depth is an incredibly difficult process, I'd assume. No matter how much people like to think otherwise, Melee today is only kept alive by the competitive community. I'm sure there are casuals but most casuals have moved on to the new and better looking game. Even though this is the case, smash 4 does seem to have hit this balance of Casual and competitive in some fashion or another. It's a very casual looking game but if you look into it a little more, it has competitiive appeal and depth. Smash 4 is the epitome of "the middle of the road" approach with trying to have everyone enjoy it and I respect Sakurai and all of the devs for making a game like this. It's very difficult to please everyone but it seems like that's what smash 4 is trying to do and it seems to be doing a good job of that.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

How did it go from "Yeah everything's cool people can play the game how they want to and that's great!" to well... you know.

Happy New Year yelling at eachother

 

[Freduardo]

For real. IF PEOPLE WOULD JUST READ THE COMMENTS THAT YOU, ME AND A FEW OTHER PEOPLE HAVE POSTED THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS A POOR TRANSLATION ERROR!!

Hey, Japanese speakers, what's the gist of the untranslated parts where he discusses DLC? Anything promising?

 

[Jotunn]

I don't fully agree, but I understand.

 

[Gidy]

I like how he says competitive Smash has no future when Melees been through tough times when nobody supported it. Plus I don't see as big of a competitive scene for other 10 year games.

 

[platomaker]

I've played Smash for just about as long as I've been playing video games, and I've never been a competitive player... I've never wavedashed effectively, I have no clue what L-Cancelling is, and "tech" sounds weird.

But I really dislike the direction that Smash is going. I loved Brawl, I loved Melee... But how am I supposed to transition a casual to a competitive if they keep dumbing it down? How are they supposed to appeal to a greater audience? I really hope Project M threatens the sales of Smash games, that way the good folks at Nintendo notice that the direction that Smash is going is poor. Too bad Nintendo cares more about making games than making money.
Pah.
At least Sakurai is good at thinking up new moves for characters, I'll give him that much.

Someday... A Smash Bros. game with all characters, all stages, all gametypes, to the playstyle of Melee... That would make them so much money, and it could be the last Smash Bros... Because it would be perfect.

You probably have tech'ed before and didn't realize what it was. And smash isn't getting dumbed down as much as its replacing exploits (brawl exploits were boring). Project M requires a brawl disc for competitive scenes. Brawl and Smash 4 did add a lot to the gameplay that a lot of players simply ignore or overlook.

 

[ParadoxRF]

I love how everyone has ignored the corrections that point this to mean simply that he isnt going to make Smash into some hardcore, technical button combo game and forgo the roots of the series. Theres still a lot of depth in the core Smash 4 mechanics that doesnt require memorization of button stuff. Its still possible to play competitively and have a fun match.

All of the button press exploits that people keep asking to be reinstated from Melee are exactly the kind of stuff hes talking about. Pro melee players have to retire sometimes so they dont destroy their hands. They run through Gamecube controllers. He's saying he'll never include those again because smash isnt about that sort of gameplay. The competitive scene has made it mostly about that kind of gameplay, which is ok because theres nothing wrong with being that good at something and watching others be that good at something. But it wasnt what Smash was designed for (button combos). If you want melee, its not going anywhere

 

[Lavi_MarioStickMan12]

Completely agree, its like he doesnt pay attention to the competetive scene, any one can get outclassed in just about any game u can think of, adding a few things to make a game more competetive doesnt really change much

Alright, after reading through this a few times, I get what Sakurai is trying to say, it's just that he's too worried about alienating new players. Smash is a fairly simple game. Making the game faster, allowing for more combo potential, that won't get rid of anyone. Also, new players being severely outclassed by experienced players is nothing new. It happens in just about every big game out there.

Sakurai worries too much. I do believe that putting most of the focus on competitive play is a bad move, but totally ignoring the competitive players is even worse. His intentions are good, but the results... not so much. Sure, this might be a casual game turned hardcore, but why not embrace that?

 

[Jellyfishn]

My translation of the highlighted paragraph:
"If you are talking about 'serious battling' (In Japanese this is also the phrase they use for "For Glory"), there are lots of other fighting games that are designed for that type of play, so personally I sometimes think that those people should play those games. When you look at 'Smash' ONLY from a serious aspect, the game itself doesn't have a future."


'Only' is the key word left out in the paragraph in the article. I read that last sentence and it sounds like to me, he is thinking about making money for the company and keeping Smash what it is. He is not saying smash as a competitive game has no future.

I contacted the reddit poster. While I still feel my translation is better, he did go back and add the word ONLY back into his translation. Hopefully that will at least clear a little bit up.

 

[Juggleguy]

Outside of Wavedashing, what is removed that had depth?

Movement options, ledge mechanics, hitstun and combo mechanics, I can go on and on. This is just a sorry display of vision. I have the deepest respect for his game development ability, but the biggest disappointment at his vision.

 

[NewZen]

I think when people keep saying that a game can be fun casually and competitively, it's a bit more complicated than originally perceived. I can see where Samurai is concerned, and that it's not total BS like many people claim it is. I first noticed this when I was playing with some of my casual friends.

They all said something with the same general idea behind it: playing Melee with me wasn't fun because getting destroyed and overwhelmed with Falco/Fox pressure felt bad. They felt that at least in Brawl, even though I was still fundamentally better than them, the difference in skill wasn't felt nearly as much, and they felt that they still had a chance, etc.

As much as it is tempting to just tell them to play more, get better and learn how to deal with the pressure, one must understand that everyone is different, and not everyone wants to play and learn at such a serious level; they just want to mess around.

This is where I think the problem lies: when the skill ceiling is high for a game, it automatically deters casual players from playing the game, especially in a primarily local game where the casual and competitive groups often mix. I feel like having a good matchmaking system may help fix this issue, where casual players will play other casual players, and vice versa for competitive players. This has to be done well though, as I, for example, hate being able to see my own statistics; I only want to play more and get better, no matter what the result is, and I find it all too easy for myself to get caught up in statistics.

The biggest issue with this is the fact that not every game can have the mindset where you can win all of the time-it's just not possible because someone has to lose. That's the nature of a game where there's competition (Not competitive play, May-the-Best-Man-Win type of gameplay).

I understand what Sakurai's trying to do, but the problem is that the series' elements basically entail that the player with the most experience will always win unless they are screwed over, and if that occurs, then it's also a counterpoint because by losing to randomness and things out of their own control (A Bomb-omb or explosive capsule appearing out of nowhere while that person is attacking, for example) means that that person now has no interest in playing a certain way because it's no longer fun to them, as well. This is why I'm glad (Although the implications of one of the modes is more of a conceited misconception) the options in Online exist, so people can do as they please without too much of a problem.

Any type of game will have a skill gap in some way or another, as it's not the better players' jobs to accommodate for those who have no idea what they're doing, Smash is no exception. I understand games are meant to be a stress-reliever and something you do for fun, but if you cannot accept the loss of something simply because you don't want to learn to get better at the game or learn the mechanics, then I'm sorry-you deserve to lose, and getting upset because someone is better than you (Not because you win by getting lucky) is truly childish.

 

[JayJay584]

I find it funny how one of the more important words, だけ (only), is left out of the translation when it pretty much changes the meaning. Though this has already been explained in the comments, which most people here apparently don't read.