Sakurai has wronged us all by leaving the game unbalanced.

[MasterWarlord]

I tried to think positive when Ganondorf had his old moveset in Melee, thinking I wouldn't have to readjust my tactics with how I played as Ganon.

I was dead wrong.

Ganondorf was now horribly slow, beyond all reason, and his beautiful wizard's foot recovery was taken from him. I still wanted to main Ganon, but I simply couldn't when I saw how superior Dedede was in every way. Better recovery, range, projectiles, priority, power, recovery, speed, weight, chain grabs, you name it, Dedede's got it over Ganondorf. I still like Dedede as a character, but I like Ganon a hell of a lot better, so even ignoring cut characters, the terrible balancing of the smash bros games has always been a annoyin factor for me. I know no fighting game can be perfectly balanced, but I'd like to see the gap between characters smaller. While tiers usually don't affect my play, after a lot of play as the earlier mentioned two characters I just can't help but notice how superior Dedede is to Ganondorf, and it's really starting to hurt the Brawl competetive scene.

I feel as if I'm forced to play Dedede (As I use slow powerful characters), and I'm not exactly fond of people telling me how much I spam, which, pretty much, is the only way Dedede can keep up with the likes of Meta Knight and Snake.

In any case, due to tiers, I am no longer able to use my favorite character competetively, and this is compeltely unacceptable. We need to start demanding to Sakurai that he better balance the next game whenever it comes around.

 

[bobson]

Fighting games with wildly different characters cannot be fully balanced without incremental updates because of the sheer amount of playtesting that's required to balance the fighters.

Suck it up.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Of course it can't be perfectly balanced, everybody knows that. But it can get a heck of a lot closer to it then what we have in Brawl, just take a look at a series like Street Fighter.

 

[:034:]

You can compare the Ganon boards to.... Well, anything manly really. I mean, seriously, we play the slowest character in the game BECAUSE WE LIKE TO. Everybody who doesn't, tough luck, eat a fair in the face.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I still play Ganondorf for fun regularly due to the simple fact he's Ganondorf, but the moveset is terrible. I just simply can't get anywhere in competetive play with the king of evil any more, instead that role now falls to a self proclaimed king known only as Dedede. Why was Ganondorf nerfed so badly while Falco and Marth still reign as kings?

 

[Genos]

If you prefer Dedede's playstyle then I don't see anything wrong with this. If Ganondorf is no fun then don't use him.

Also, keep in mind that DK places fairly well and he's one of the heavy characters. You could give him a try.

 

[Tenki]

I thought people got over this in March.

April, at the latest.

Spoiler

10you'retooslows

 

[MasterWarlord]

I prefer Ganondorf's playstyle, but the thing is is that Dedede is simply too superior, outclassing Ganondorf in every possible way. I also prefer Ganondorf as an actual character outside of Smash. If I want to be taken seriously in the competetive scene, I have no choice but to use Dedede and not my favorite character, and it's all due to how terribly imbalanced the game is.

 

[Conclusively]

If you're going to make character choices just based on tiers, go ahead. There is no such thing as an impossible matchup. They're just more difficult. If you know your character and know how to use him, you can win.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I don't need tiers to see how superior Dedede is to Ganondorf in moveset. I lose to countless people as Ganondorf then easily beat them with Dedede in a rematch. Name a single thing in his favor Ganon has over Dedede and I'll be seriously impressed.

 

[Tenki]

techchasing + punishment out of side-B.

`.`; I've seen some pretty awesome Ganondorf players rack heavy damage (40+) and even kill out of a single side-B's correctly-predicted reaction AND post-reaction.

But really, that's about it XD

 

[Devil7]

because as ganny you can say "DO YOU HEAR THE THUNDAAAA!!!!" as you stomp their face through the stage with a SHDair. You can't do that with DDD.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still play Ganondorf for fun regularly due to the simple fact he's Ganondorf, but the moveset is terrible. I just simply can't get anywhere in competetive play with the king of evil any more, instead that role now falls to a self proclaimed king known only as Dedede. Why was Ganondorf nerfed so badly while Falco and Marth still reign as kings?

Ganondorf's moveset is actually very good. It's just that everything else about him is bad. And that in particular is mobility, ending lag on certain attacks, recovery, size, and grab range.

Basically he has some really good attacks that can do amazing things, but his defensive options just suck.

 

[canswer]

Umm.. get better with ganon..

and can we all agree to stop whineing about how awful Ganon is, i have no trouble beating people up with ganon i think you just need to practice more and complain less

 

[MasterWarlord]

Sep 8 2012
Phase 1 I do not remember much about and is unrelated to main portion I remember, being taught as an art student for whatever reason in my church, let alone the Promiseland area meant for little kids despite it being a serious class. Two other teachers that are not mine are desperately trying to force me out, one of them using model of Mayor of Halloween town from NMBC, eventually evolving into trying to kill me and my teacher. Don’t remember my model, but was clearly inhuman. Eventually gain flight through means I don’t remember (Probably none), go into main church sanctuary and fly up into the balcony in the back to get around the stairs where you have to open the locked door. Chill and use the coveted computer for “happy” end. Mayor of Halloween Town somehow cannot get past the locked door despite having the unexplained ability (Tell via mental narration, don’t show) to easily kill us in melee combat.

Next segment is entirely unrelated. I am a Blademaster (Grom model)/Gastly that is being hunted for some previous off-screen killings. Start as the Blademaster, and very consistently have to rely on WC3 mechanics. For the whole dream I have nothing but level 3 Wind Walk and level 1 Mirror Image, along with Mana and a WC3 inventory, the first four slots being consistently filled with things I don’t remember, implied to be custom items, outside one being some custom item that gave me a weak Vampiric Aura. The main people who seem to be hunting me are Grom (Chaos) model, and Pandaren Brewmaster.

Starts in a mansion, which my brain tells me is that of someone I know IRL despite it looking nothing like said house. I have the non-sensical urge to want to steal money/video games from the house as if it were a RL scenario and my life was not constantly in danger throughout the dream, even though this house is abandoned and I am living here and making use of said video games/computer – this is very much still me, regardless of having Blademaster abilities/this model. In this house, it is a realistic first person perspective, and I don’t even realize I’m a Blademaster yet because of this. I constantly have to have Wind Walk up to not be found, essentially, and I cannot use my video games/computer without alerting them where I am because of them seeing things moving around by themselves - the Panda knows of my abilities. The Panda catches me and forces me out of the building – the Panda seems genre savvy and knows of my abilities.

Outside, it is largely a WC3 perspective. The Panda heavily uses Drunken Haze on me, which prevents me from fighting back at all due to 100% miss rate courtesy of Edge of Heroes. This is the place where the Chaos Grom comes on camera and I’m shown as Blademaster, despite using the blademaster abilities throughout the dream. Chaos Grom is incredibly strong, and there’s no real defining characteristics of the land outside the mansion, other than barren wasteland, towers scattered about, and night time. My brain has conflicting signals with this being real life and this just being some custom WC3 map, where other chars are hopelessly powerful and I am just trolling by Wind Walking away from everyone en mass/stalling various timers. I come close to death several times out here, though it’s only actually shown once or twice whereas my brain says it was many more times. I go back to the mansion after picking up some Beer Items (Main time I am conscious I have a WC3 6 item inventory) and dropped them elsewhere via WC3 mechanics to knock them off my trail. Ironically, the Panda is never seen again in the dream.

Upon going back inside the mansion my model turns into Gastly. I kick up my feet in a recliner chair and start drinking several cans/liters of orange soda. Interestingly, I clearly still have to eat and drink, and I never once use a Pokemon move while still using WC3 mechanics/Wind Walk, thus I’m much more obviously the Blademaster, despite the dream also making very clear at this point that I’m a ghost, the other characters referring to me as one now. In any case, random old lady with alzheimer’s comes up and sees the orange soda I’m drinking floating in place. During this specific scene, my model flashes briefly between Gastly and actually me. She gets overly freaked out, and I get very tense as she takes the soda right out of my hand, but is too stupid to realize I’m right there. She goes and tells her findings to the other survivors in the mansion, and I listen in as they plot how to kill me/search me out. I move about the mansion and explore some of what I described earlier – this is most of the mansion’s screen time. I contemplate killing several of them here as they split up, although it is more about getting them to stop killing me than being generically evil, as the original killings were off-camera. I ultimately decide against killing them during this time, thinking that the others are too nearby and will be able to group up and find me after I kill one, and decide to wait until they fall asleep.

I wait for them to fall asleep lazing about on the couch. I am starting to wake up IRL at this point, and am amused immensely by the dream, but am still asleep enough that my reasoning process is part of the dream. I question if I am some killer why I have not evolved yet, and think maybe Gastly’s gas is what enables me to go invisible and that’s why I haven’t evolved, and suggest I must be level 60 or something. I later realize that’s probably not it and the humans just provide terrible experience. I randomly see a Squirtle lazing about on another nearby couch, and my brain tells me it belongs to the Pokemon Trainer from Brawl. My brain non-sensically tells me that the other background characters are the Brawl cast despite them never having been, which I think is stupid and causes me to wake up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

my point is that when SSB4 is announced we need to start requesting that the game is better balanced then Melee and Brawl.

That means ask for a different director to lead the Smash series, and from what I understand Sakurai under any circumstance wouldn't be making a SSB4 anyway.

The only reason why Melee was so balanced was because Sakurai didn't know what he was doing. =P

 

[GI Josh]

Fighting games with wildly different characters cannot be fully balanced without incremental updates because of the sheer amount of playtesting that's required to balance the fighters.

Suck it up.

QFT, it's unbalanced, what else is new?

 

[51if3r]

Lucario!!!1!!!!!11

 

[cHooKay]

and that's why i now play brawl just for fun...
if sakurai really decides that he doesn't want to be apart of ssb4, then good. Hasta luego, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

In all his interviews, he seemed so sure of himself that brawl was in all was more balanced and superior over melee. Added so much content and forgot about adding more to the gameplay, oh wait he did add the beloved "tripping" in the series. Got rid of combos for many characters who don't have speed, got rid of advance techs; some which needed to remain in brawl like L- canceling at least. He thought he made the game balanced by taking these out, but he was wrong. He forgot to check the insane strength, priority, CG, etc of snake, GW, Metaknight, Olimar, IC, and other top tier characters.

He didn't think that the game needed more nintendo characters because it would be too much for people to handle as well as himself, although the more characters you add to smash (nintendo characters to avoid all that copyright and fanboyism flaming), the more people would buy smash. He didn't want to bother with REAL downloadable content, he didn't want brawl competitive, he didn't want people happy with online battles, or online stats or rosters. He played favorites with certain characters, such as ness vs lucas, or the whole metaknight owns all thing .

He got rid of individual target test and stripped it down to 5 boring ones, didn't bother adding voice acting in SSA because it was too hard for him, isn't really enthusiastic of his work to AT LEAST consider bringing smash to the ds whether it be a port of the 64 version or a dumbed down version (hey, i mean look at sonic battle on the gba, as limited as it was it was still addictive and decent), although from a gamers standpoint, smash on the ds would sell like hotcakes.


Whoa too much complaining, letme just stop with this last note.

I was the one fighting to protect brawl, i thought it wasn't based on tiers, until I got chain grabbed to death multiple times with mario by falco, IC, DDD etc. I couldn't even attack snake since all his moves have INSANELY more priority than mario. I'm okay with tiers, but come on, in melee, it was possible to main low tier characters and win. In brawl, its **** near impossible, especially since sakurai removed the advanced techs that made it possible to win with low tier characters. Especially with the existance of "infinite" chain grabs, you think someone like sakurai would've tested for that since it existed in melee and create something that can break grabs like in soul calibur, or even like the combo breakers in Killer instinct....

I say someone start a petition for a better director other than sakurai, i think he's getting too old. He deprives smash from being a godly grand game....

 

[cyclops4ever]

ahhh,....u people do u even practice with him? gee wiz. his grab range sucks....so guess what? PIVOT GRAB! U GET FAR MORE RANGE! yes he sux, and he sucked in melee too but i mained him and held my own, just like now. he can take alot of high even top tier characters, withoyt forward b. ive done it, and they were all good tourny lvl people.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Top Tier:
Alakazam
Gyarados
Starmie
Tentacruel
Zapdos
Magneton
Dugtrio
Tangela
Gloom
Moltres
Porygon
Aerodactyl

High Tier:
Machamp *
Parasect
Rhydon
Exeggcute
Wartortle
Dodrio
Dragonair
Golduck
Poliwhirl
Voltorb
Poliwag
Ivysaur
Vileplume
Raichu
Kingler
Nidoking
Clefairy
Mew *
Koffing
Drowzee
Graveler

Mid Tier:
Rapidash
Pinsir
Rhyhorn
Tentacool
Krabby *
Lickitung *
Seadra
Beedrill
Nidoqueen
Venomoth
Electabuzz
Staryu
Bulbasaur
Primeape *
Golbat *
Weepinbell
Poliwrath *
Oddish
Horsea
Ponyta
Vulpix
Dewgong
Fearow
Persian
Wigglytuff
Raticate *

Low Tier:
Sandshrew *
Weedle
Paras
Dratini
Geodude
Doduo
Omanyte
Seel
Venonat
Nidorino
Machop
Growlithe

Bottom Tier:
Charizard *
Kabuto
Machoke
Charmander
Charmeleon
Spearow
Pidgey
Mankey
Seaking
Kakuna *
Nidorina
Nidoran (Male)
Nidoran (Female)
Goldeen
Pikachu *
Marowak *
Ninetales *
Cubone *
Articuno *

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Can you beat somebody who's good that uses metaknight, DDD and high-tiers? If so, you're golden. Tiers only matter to a certain degree. Then it is skill.

 

[MasterWarlord]

7 Movesets Ranked!

★★★★★★★★★★ - 0 Movesets - At 10 stars, I will declare this moveset the best moveset ever made. . .Not by MasterWarlord. No moveset has ever obtained this rank.
★★★★★★★★★☆ - 0 Movesets - At 9 stars, movesets are among my personal favorites from all contests. This tier was previously unused, but due to sheer quantity of sets formerly 8 star sets were bumped up.
★★★★★★★★☆☆ - 0 Movesets - At 8 stars, movesets are typically getting into the ranks of the elite, and will fondly be remembered for MYMs to come.
★★★★★★★☆☆☆ - 1 Movesets - At 7 stars, movesets are getting good enough to actually stand out from among the crowd and be legitimately memorable. The sets in this tier were originally merged with 6 star, but there started to become too much of a gap in the tier it had to be split in two.
★★★★★★☆☆☆☆ - 1 Movesets - At 6 stars, I -do- like the movesets, though they certainly have plenty of room for improvement or their ideas aren't -that- unique.
★★★★★☆☆☆☆☆ - 3 Movesets - At 5 stars, I no longer actually like these movesets, but they aren't -bad-. The quality gap between 6, 5, and 4 stars is among the largest on the list.
★★★★☆☆☆☆☆☆ - 2 Movesets - At 4 stars and below, I specifically start DISLIKING movesets.
★★★☆☆☆☆☆☆☆ - 0 Movesets - At 3 stars are plenty of bad movesets, but they typically have some slightly redeeming quality that prevents them from going down the list further.
★★☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆ - 0 Movesets - At 2 stars, movesets have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
★☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆ - 0 Movesets - With only 1 star, movesets not only have nothing good about them, they're completely OOC, horrifically generic, impossible to read, and do 30% and great knockback on every move.

BUBBLEMAN.EXE

★★★★★★★☆☆☆
7/10

MIKE DAWSON

★★★★★★☆☆☆☆
6/10

GARBLE

★★★★★☆☆☆☆☆
5/10

COLD ENCHANTER

★★★★★☆☆☆☆☆
5/10

PRINCESS BUBBLEGUM

★★★★★☆☆☆☆☆
5/10

KAMMY KOOPA

★★★★☆☆☆☆☆☆
4/10

MAGNEMITE

★★★★☆☆☆☆☆☆
4/10

 

[cyclops4ever]

i have beaten meta knights, fox falco wolf, almost all of them except ddd, his chaingrabbing destroys me and snake,.....i just havent figured that one out yet...he's got every advantage over me, speed power projectiles...gah... but tiers do matter, when someone with half the skill may havng with you and maybe win because they can chaingrab you for example etc, you just have to be so much better its not funny, but tourny wise i dont think you will be wayyy better than your opponent.

 

[xX Boezy Xx]

Ganon sucks. Brawl is horribly unbalanced. Chain Grabs are the work of the Devil.

That about sums up this thread.

 

[KiwiBear]

Yeah, I totally understand the view of the thread creator. And lets face it, Brawl has been utterly sh*tted on. Its not just the inbalance of the characters, but the overly simplicity of this game. Maybe its just the fact that the Wii is a Gamecube 1.7, but it seems that this game also suffered the same fate most of the other games from this console have; no competitive play whatsoever. I really do believe Sakurai favored a few characters, and then had the rest skimpped on. Not to mention the laughable roster that the Smash bros. series has attracted. Sonic shouldn't even be in this game since they DO have certain rules for which characters can be available for the roster. Anyway, I'm a Yoshi mainer, and I do see the favoritism of certain characters. And its with stupid things to boot. As of now Zelda, Snake, Falco, Metaknight, ZSS, Wolf, and DDD are the only characters worth using. Its not even about skill anymore. And I know this is true because its sad when you have a hard time beating a 6 year old using wolf against your Ganondorf (this has never happened to me) with ubsurdely ranged Fsmashes, bogus random tripping, and ridiculous character buff *coughzeldacough*. The problem with Smash bros is that they've completely succeded in removing the competitive factor from this game.

 

[null55]

It's not Ganondorf's fault he's awful, it was Sakurai's responsibility to better balance the characters. If you want proof within the Smash series, just look at Melee. The gap between the characters wasn't so insanely large there. There will be no gimpyfish this time around, the gap is just simply too large. The reign of Meta Knight, Snake, Dedede, Game & Watch and friends has begun.

I'm not going to use Ganondorf over Dedede in serious competetive play when I know it's going to lower my chances of coming out the victor. Don't consider me taking a shot at Ganondorf, my point is that when SSB4 is announced we need to start requesting that the game is better balanced then Melee and Brawl.

No gimpyfishes? Sonic is even lower than Ganon on the H2YL tier list, and yet Mr. 3000 ***** one of the best Falcos in the country.

 

[Gleam]

I love how people are looking at Tripping as though its the number one worst thing ever. I'll admit I think tripping isn't the best, but seriously? It sounds like all of you are just tripping 10 times a stock. You do one rush, *trip* another rush *trip*

Tripping is not that bad. If I had it my way I wouldn't want it, but the whole tripping business has been completely blown out of proportions.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

Tiers are 4 queers.

But all in seriousness, just because DDD is higher "tier wise", doesn't mean a Ganondorf can't beat a DDD.

 

[ADHD]

Tiers are 4 queers.

But all in seriousness, just because DDD is higher "tier wise", doesn't mean a Ganondorf can't beat a DDD.

Chaingrab

10char

 

[WITH]

Yeah, Ganon is unbalanced and you have to be much better to win as him than if you played other characters. I used to be bothered by this, but I think of it in a new way now. It's GOOD that the game is unbalanced (as long as it's still possible to win with the worst characters).

The reason it's good is that people who want to can have fun creaming the easier characters. If the hard work involved in doing that isn't for you, sorry you won't be enjoying Ganon, but for some people, it's fun to be able to pick up a low tier character and win. If everyone was balanced, people wouldn't have the option of going that path.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

As of now Zelda, Snake, Falco, Metaknight, ZSS, Wolf, and DDD are the only characters worth using.

You missed Game and Watch, ROB, Wario, Pit, Diddy, and probably more that are totally competitive, even if they're not on the top of the top tier.

 

[Tri4ceofPower]

I main ganon and I think he owns. In my opinion sakurai is the man (created my favorite game, brawl) and ganon isn't a terrible fighter in the least. These are couple reasons why

Side-B is an entire strategy in itself, has a guaranteed followup to three quarters of the cast and multiple ways of punishing whatever move they chose to do with a pretty much 0% chance of getting hit yourself (once you've caught them with it).

Down-a autocancelled is ridiculously good, I use it as a way of movement (avoids tripping), to hop over projectiles while approaching, to spike, to punish, to move my opponent around the stage, to shield pressure, and just to plain intimidate my opponent. Also when you catch someone with it they fly straight up which leads to air attack possibilities. Spike em up and then send em flying with up-a.

He's a heavy ******* and stays alive for a long time with proper d.i.

His edge game has so many possibilities, when he's hanging on to it he can:
a) do a flying murderchoke for people a little bit back from the edge
b) do an up a for people that get too close (or drop down and up-b, if you push forward while doing it, it will slide up and straight to your opponent.)
c) do a forward a that carries ganon back onto the stage as it happens.
d) Ganoncide.
e) Jump up and down B (easily punishable if used predictably, but don't be predictable!)

anyways, I think ganon is a viable choice... I haven't mastered him yet and I've been pretty succesfull.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

I fully understand the view of the creator - I had the same problem from the change from SSB to Melee - I loved Kirby on the N64 but he sucked in Melee. I would accept a slight nerf, but that was too extreme to play him often. All in all, I dont think that the balance is worse than in Melee - there are just not as much possibilites to be better than someone else, so the differences between the characters strike harder.
Still I like Brawl, especially because Kirby is a good character again .

 

[null55]

Drab, your signature is so f'ing distracting.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

I guess this would be a funny time to stay I love Spiking unsuspecting Dedede's?

I'll be honest, when I first got Brawl I was turned off by how much they nerfed Ganon from Melee (where he was my main) but now I'm back to maining him.

I have another tournament this weekened and I plan on using Ganondorf for the majority of the tournament like last time.

And I agree with Flying Dutchman....we are easiest the manliest users here No pride when it comes to maining Meta Knight lol

 

[Anteo]

I don't get it. I thot in brawl some chars are better agains other but not against all of them.
That's why most of us play with more than 1 character.

(Still I get your point, It could be better. I hope they are planning how to balance SSB4 rite now)

 

[mariofanpm12]

I wish Ganon weren't so nerfed, but...

You shouldn't let the Tier List decide mains for you.

 

[Hyrus]

Off topic thread, but...

Fighting games with wildly different characters cannot be fully balanced without incremental updates because of the sheer amount of playtesting that's required to balance the fighters.

The incredibly small amount of in-house testing it would require to discover infinites and standing chaingrabs, especially against walls, speaks for itself.

The character with the longest grab range, prime suspect for an issue, happens to be reknown for chaingrabbing most of the cast. With the philosophy of the game changed and combos intentionally removed, it seems like blatant half-assing to me.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Wronged us, Oh yes. But they have punsihed Gannon even more!

I'M LOW TEIR!? =(

Lawl, how silly, what a sillybillykin's he is! Anyhow getting my self back on topic, I feel however that Gannon is in fact more playable at a higher level in contrast to the cast of Brawl compared to Gannon in Melee. He hasn't many flaws, is he run's slow don't run. If he has lag on his airs avoid those airs. As a whole he is weak without a doubt, but taking advantage of his exceptional power and quicky movement gives him new potential. I'm not sure why everyone still considers him nerfed, he still has a spamable DAIR and UAIR! Been given a nifty edgeguarding suiside at the cost of his DOWN + B returning jumps. He isn't bad, just used badly.​