Data Roy Patch Discussion (current patch: 1.1.5)

[Moydow]

False alarm, they're just the changes to get-up attacks' shield damage.

It has to be Blazer. Was this sort of BS possible before?

Probably, yes. Though Blazer did get some hitbox changes last patch that we never did quite figure out properly. Maybe this has something to do with them?

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

False alarm, they're just the changes to get-up attacks' shield damage.


Probably, yes. Though Blazer did get some hitbox changes last patch that we never did quite figure out properly. Maybe this has something to do with them?

Do we know about a Blazer hitbox that does < 1% damage? I must have hit that Marth with only one of the hitboxes.

 

[Croph]

It has to be Blazer. Was this sort of BS possible before?

Watching this in slower speed... the heck is going on here. Is this easy to recreate?

 

[ArikadoSD]

That's probably battlefield's janky ledges doing work

 

[Redline!]

Roy can do stuff like this now:

https://youtu.be/fzsoAnQh8jM?t=147

dtilt into ftilt into fsmash to force a shield break within a couple of points of shieldHP. Capitalize with a Flare Blade and that's dunzo!

 

[LuLLo]

Roy can do stuff like this now:

https://youtu.be/fzsoAnQh8jM?t=147

dtilt into ftilt into fsmash to force a shield break within a couple of points of shieldHP. Capitalize with a Flare Blade and that's dunzo!

That's definitly not a thing and 100% escapable,

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Watching this in slower speed... the heck is going on here. Is this easy to recreate?

I could give you the original file so you can go frame by frame if you'd like. I don't think there's any frame drops.
My suspicion is that Marth actually dropped down on the frame before the Blazer hit, but I'm not sure. It seems ridiculous that I can kill a character at literally 0%.

 

[Croph]

I could give you the original file so you can go frame by frame if you'd like. I don't think there's any frame drops.
My suspicion is that Marth actually dropped down on the frame before the Blazer hit, but I'm not sure. It seems ridiculous that I can kill a character at literally 0%.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out if Marth drops from the ledge before he gets hit. Having the file so I could go frame by frame would be nice since I'm just curious. 0% kill is crazy either way lol.

 

[EnGarde]

Crossposting this post here.

"Finished with Roy. The general consensus: he's safer on everything. Much safer on sweetspots, and all of his sourspots are at least one frame safer. The exception is n-air, which got 2 frames worse on both sourspots.

If you want to see his numbers before, here's Roy's 1.10 frame data."

 

[Zeallyx]

Does Roy's Fair still have DJ cancelable IASA frames during a SH?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Does Roy's Fair still have DJ cancelable IASA frames during a SH?

yes

 

[FMHappy]

Crossposting this post here.

"Finished with Roy. The general consensus: he's safer on everything. Much safer on sweetspots, and all of his sourspots are at least one frame safer. The exception is n-air, which got 2 frames worse on both sourspots.

If you want to see his numbers before, here's Roy's 1.10 frame data."

So if you were to sweetspot nair on a shield, would it be safe?

 

[EnGarde]

So if you were to sweetspot nair on a shield, would it be safe?

No. You are within shield-grab range, and at -8 frame disadvantage to oos options. If you were to sourspot nair on shield (hit with the tip of the blade), you'd be at -9 frame disadvantage to oos options, but you are out of range for most of them, except fast fairs oos or the like, so most characters would have to drop shield to punish. In that instance, you're only at a -2 frame disadvantage, which means you can generally do another action in time to either get away or keep up the pressure.

 

[FMHappy]

No. You are within shield-grab range, and at -8 frame disadvantage to oos options. If you were to sourspot nair on shield (hit with the tip of the blade), you'd be at -9 frame disadvantage to oos options, but you are out of range for most of them, except fast fairs oos or the like, so most characters would have to drop shield to punish. In that instance, you're only at a -2 frame disadvantage, which means you can generally do another action in time to either get away or keep up the pressure.

If you were to sweetspot fair on shield, would you be at frame disadvantage as well?

 

[Swoops]

If you were to sweetspot fair on shield, would you be at frame disadvantage as well?

You are, but depending on your spacing/timing you can actually be relatively safe from many punish options. The best disadvantage you can get is around -8/-9. If they shield drop that would only put you around -1/-2

 

[FMHappy]

You are, but depending on your spacing/timing you can actually be relatively safe from many punish options. The best disadvantage you can get is around -8/-9. If they shield drop that would only put you around -1/-2

If you were to hit with the sourspot(tip of the sword) would you be safe?

 

[Swoops]

If you were to hit with the sourspot(tip of the sword) would you be safe?

To put it simply: a sourspot FAir has 2 less frames of shield stun, so mathematically you are always 2 frames less safe than you otherwise would be if you hit with the sweet spot with the same timing.

Safety is a very relative thing though, so I can't give you a clear cut answer. In smash it's relative to match up, your spacing, and the timing of the FAir as you land. Here's the way I think about it in practical terms: my FAir CAN be safe against a Sheik's OoS FAir and grab, or my FAir can be punished by a Sheik's FAir/grab if I time/mis-space the move.

Sourspot and sweetspot FAir can be (relatively) safe, but it all depends on how you're using the move.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Sourspot and sweetspot FAir can be (relatively) safe, but it all depends on how you're using the move.

It's harder to pull off with the sweetspot though. You have to go in closer and risk getting punished if you don't react fast enough.

 

[EnGarde]

Cross posting this here. ^_^ Basically, a previously unremarked upon enginge change that primarily affects doubles / FFAs.

"The tl;dr version is that if a player's shield is struck, they are throw-invincible. But ONLY to grabs performed by the player that struck their shield. And this only applies to physical attacks; multi-hit projectiles (Mega Man's crash bomb or Robin's Arcthunder) do not activate the grab glitch.

I had Roy with +200 attack and 2 Mega Mans in Training Mode (so I could set the speed to 1/4, I'm not coordinated enough to do all the following on my own at normal speed). One MM on the edge, Roy standing next to him and the other MM standing behind Roy. I shield with the MM on the edge, Roy d-smashes. When Roy D-smashes, the MM behind Roy hits him with a lemon, which cancels out Roy's hitlag. Roy then attempts to grab the MM that's still in hitlag. Both in hitlag and in shieldstun after hitlag ends, Roy's grab whiffs.

By comparison, in regular Smash I had Roy d-smash a shield while another character stood behind and grabbed; even though player 2 was in shieldlag/shieldstun, they still got grabbed by player 3."

 

[Solutionme]

Super low chance of Roy getting nerfed, people who complain about his f-smash are dumb tbh. They would complain more about Marth's were his sweetspot bigger because it'd be safer and kill earlier.

Anyways as someone else stated he doesn't have a bread and butter to f-smash that reliably kills. Only things that could come close are footstools, which can be rolled out of in time when Roy comes down there, d-throw and they airdodge, or shield poking them through the use of shield pressure.

 

[Malcolm Pickering]

did Roy's blazer always have to be sweet spotted to kill?

 

[ElectricBlade]

did Roy's blazer always have to be sweet spotted to kill?

Yes it has

 

[Croph]

I hope Moydow doesn't mind that I went ahead and updated the op (feel free to make any more changes)...

Other than Roy's aerials getting landing lag reductions, he also got some slight DED buffs.

 

[Gawain]

I'm gonna chime in here. This is concerning the 1.1.4 update which reduced all of Roy's relevant (for landing) aerials by 2 frames.

The first one I want to talk about is nair. The second hit of nair is almost as safe as Captain Falcon's falling up air is now. It's behind by like 2 frames or so. If we had a jab as fast as Falcons it means we could beat shield grabs with a jab after nair every time lol. The good news with this though is that, as long as you are outside the reach of their OOS options, nair hit 2 is now perfectly safe on shield, since anything they have to drop shield to do is guaranteed to be beaten by any of our tilts/jab whatever. Fair is also similarly safer, and MAYBE bair too but I don't think thats a very good option to hit a shield with. The other two reductions are nice but don't really make the moves any better to land with except maybe letting us combo into bair from falling up air easier.

EDIT: By the way, the reduction in fair's landing lag now allows you to basically chain throw certain people with fthrows, guaranteed, by doing fthrow-> SH fair(sour), fastfall after the hit -> grab -> Fthrow* ..... until you reach the end of the stage, from around 20 to around 60 or so. If they try to DI up, then you can just air combo them for more damage with fair into blazer or whatever you want. This doesn't tend nto work well vs very floaty characters though, so your mileage may vary.

 

[Aninymouse]

I'm glad to see these frame data buffs. People always complain about Roy in neutral; maybe now the faster landing lag on the aerials will allow Roy to get in easier. Frame 6 DED helps, too.

It's not a ton, but it still helps.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I know for sure that his approaches are much safer on shield now like previously stated and the decreases in aerial landing lag will give Roy more freedom in the neutral, and more time to follow up upon hitting with his aerials. Bair is safer to throw out (as safe as Fair was pre-1.1.4, short by 1 frame) and was already a great kill move, so this may help us kill a bit more easily. Generally, he's more efficient at what he does best, and that's keeping up the pressure. This is definitely something he needed imo.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Played Roy in some friendlies today. He feels so much better to play now since Nair's and Fair's decreased landing lag not only make them safer on shield, but also allow him to get followups from them more reliably and frame trap the opponent into Grab / other moves much more effectively. These moves are much better landing options as well since they are safer. DED buff is pretty useful too since it makes combos into it from moves like F-Throw and D-Tilt more reliable.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Since they haven't updated Roy's aerial's frame advantage on shield in the docs, I went ahead and did the math myself. It was simple. All I did was add frames to the frame advantage numbers from the previous patch based on how many frames were shaved off of the landing lag in 1.1.4. So here it is:

Landing Lag (as a reminder):
Nair: 11 frames of lag (from 13)
Fair: 13 f (from 15)
Uair: 14 f (from 16)
Bair: 16 f (from 19)
Dair: 23 f (from 28)

Frame Advantage on Shield:
Nair 1 (sour/sweet): from -9/-8 to -7/-6
Nair 2 (sour/sweet): from -9/-7 to -7/-5
Fair (sour/sweet): from -9/-7 to -7/-5
Uair (sour/sweet): from -11/-9 to -9/-7
Bair (sour/sweet): from -12/-11 to -10/-9
Dair: from -18 to -13

Link to Roy pre-patch data in kurogane hammer (as of this moment): http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
Link to Roy's pre-patch frame advantage data in the docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5peQlvrlAc2g3kLTllpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?pli=1#

 

[LRodC]

I'm glad that they gave Roy some much needed buffs, especially to down air because that personally bothered me. Why did that move ever have 28 frames of landing lag? It's still not a great move since it has crappy hitboxes still, but at least it's not a total liability to throw out.

I thought people were still on the "Roy is high tier" train that was prevalent when he released, so I'm glad the developers saw past that.

 

[teluoborg]

Frankly speaking the Dair buff doesn't change anything. It's the endlag that makes it unusable offstage, and that hasn't changed. Other FEs can afford to have a laggy Dair because they're not fastfallers.

Still the other landing lag changes are a very welcome buff.

 

[MikeMan214]

With all the buffs from the patch that roy got I think that he should get more credit then people are giving him. He is good character even in the past he was good not as good as he is now but thats just me.

 

[LRodC]

With all the buffs from the patch that roy got I think that he should get more credit then people are giving him. He is good character even in the past he was good not as good as he is now but thats just me.

We'll have to see if the buffs make a significant impact or not. Marth's most likely will (ZeRo even said he wants to use him here and there), but we'll have to see if Roy makes a statement, because so far he hasn't really proved much of anything in a tournament setting.

 

[Pherae77]

We'll have to see if the buffs make a significant impact or not. Marth's most likely will (ZeRo even said he wants to use him here and there), but we'll have to see if Roy makes a statement, because so far he hasn't really proved much of anything in a tournament setting.

Actually Marth's buffs won't really make a significant impact. They didn't address his fatal weakness which was his unsafeness and lack of pressure in neutral. Without a fix to that, Marth's current buffs really don't make that much of a difference in practice. Roy's buffs however, did address one of his biggest weaknesses, his neutral. So really, Roy got the better buff, in terms of the weakness attempting to be fixed. How much two frames less of land lag will help his neutral, however, is another question, but it at least helps some.

 

[MikeMan214]

Actually Marth's buffs won't really make a significant impact. They didn't address his fatal weakness which was his unsafeness and lack of pressure in neutral. Without a fix to that, Marth's current buffs really don't make that much of a difference in practice. Roy's buffs however, did address one of his biggest weaknesses, his neutral. So really, Roy got the better buff, in terms of the weakness attempting to be fixed. How much two frames less of land lag will help his neutral, however, is another question, but it at least helps some.

yeah I agree Marth I still don't like as much.

 

[Schnizzle Fits]

I thought people were still on the "Roy is high tier" train that was prevalent when he released, so I'm glad the developers saw past that.

I honestly thought that might have been the case as why he'd never get buffs. Luckily they also gather data from FG and might have noticed Marth and Roy's low win rate. Both tend to be popular characters who many have been getting low results which may have edged them over characters who needed buffs like jigglypuff or DHD. Also play testing them with Corrin. I have a feeling they play tested Corrin with other FE's reps.

 

[amen]

EDIT: By the way, the reduction in fair's landing lag now allows you to basically chain throw certain people with fthrows, guaranteed, by doing fthrow-> SH fair(sour), fastfall after the hit -> grab -> Fthrow* ..... until you reach the end of the stage, from around 20 to around 60 or so. If they try to DI up, then you can just air combo them for more damage with fair into blazer or whatever you want. This doesn't tend nto work well vs very floaty characters though, so your mileage may vary.

Do you know who this works on exactly? I can only make it work on the heavyweights.
To stay on topic, I love Roy's buffs. If we wanted to, could cross-up uair and nair be safe in match-ups where the opponent doesn't have an OOS option that hits behind.

 

[Croph]

New patch, although it doesn't seem like Roy got any changes. Updated the OP as well.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Sheik nerfs are super huge for us, means that we won't be gimped nearly as hard and can kill a lot easier

edit: what's our worst matchup now? any changes?

 

[Ignysse]

Does uthrow kill later or is it just me? Seems the same for Marth/Lucina..

 

[Gawain]

Does uthrow kill later or is it just me? Seems the same for Marth/Lucina..

Its exactly the same as before.