Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[κomıc]

The delay was only a month though (in Japan, at least). But I can see why Sonic would potentially impact release dates. Dat licensing.

At least negotiations for Sonic in Smash 4 started earlier this year. That third unannounced deal Nintendo and Sega made must have been his appearance in the next Smash Bros.

If Snake does end up being announced, I'm hoping for a game along with it. Kojima did say that if he were to work on a Wii U game, it'd have to make use of the hardware in the most effective way. MGS would greatly benefit gameplay wise from the gamepad. Playing Splinter Cell Blacklist on Wii U was a joy and it bugs me that I won't be able to play MGSV the same way

 

[Frostwraith]

People think Sonic is more deserving because of the bitter rivalvry between Sega and Nintendo back in the day and the "Mario vs Sonic" playground talk. Sonic bears more relevance and significance to Nintendo's history than Snake does. That's just the simple truth. No bias from my part. And before you go off and claim I have something against Snake- I don't. It is what it is.

People are just giving too much importance to that fact. Looking at Sakurai's criteria, Snake and Sonic (and Mega Man, too) are on the same level.

Besides, if Snake was well received by many players and made people want to play the game, why remove him in this sequel?

Brawl was not delayed because of Sonic. What nonsense is that?

That is not nonsense. That is the truth. Sakurai even stated that Sonic wasn't in the initial plans, but was later added due to the immense demand by the Western fans. Hadn't Snake been revealed in Brawl's first trailer and I severely doubt that Sonic would've been as requested as he was.

Have you forgotten the fact that as soon Sonic was revealed, the game got delayed for a second time?

Have you also noticed how in the soundtrack, majority of Sonic's songs are ripped from their original games (and some were even shortened), while every other major series (Metal Gear included) had more rearranged songs?

Combine all those facts and it becomes blatantly obvious that Sonic's addition very likely caused the game to be delayed.

Mewtwo also had a very unique moveset in Melee. Look what happened there. Lucario isn't even remotely the same as Mewtwo either to be considered his replacement.

And you know how much backslash Mewtwo's removal caused, right? In fact, Mewtwo was originally going to be in Brawl, along with other characters that had to be dropped due to changes in Sakurai's original plans.

 

[Metal Overlord]

way I see it

if Sonic and Snake were both good enough to get in Smash

then they're both good enough to stay in Smash

all this other talk about who's more important to Nintendo and who has more history with them and whatnot is nothing more than comparing penis sizes lol it's irrelevant

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

People are just giving too much importance to that fact. Looking at Sakurai's criteria, Snake and Sonic (and Mega Man, too) are on the same level.

Besides, if Snake was well received by many players and made people want to play the game, why remove him in this sequel

Exactly. If he was very well received, the poster boy of Smash thirds, and even more deserving now than he was then, why would Sakurai even consider taking him out? Sonic is proof they aren't a one time thing, too.

Please note that I acknowledge the possibility. I just think it's very, very unlikely in my personal opinion.

 

[κomıc]

People are just giving too much importance to that fact. Looking at Sakurai's criteria, Snake and Sonic (and Mega Man, too) are on the same level.

Besides, if Snake was well received by many players and made people want to play the game, why remove him in this sequel?



Have you forgotten the fact that as soon Sonic was revealed, the game got delayed for a second time?

Have you also noticed how in the soundtrack, majority of Sonic's songs are ripped from their original games (and some were even shortened), while every other major series (Metal Gear included) had more rearranged songs?

Combine all those facts and it becomes blatantly obvious that Sonic's addition very likely caused the game to be delayed.



And you know how much backslash Mewtwo's removal caused, right? In fact, Mewtwo was originally going to be in Brawl, along with other characters that had to be dropped due to changes in Sakurai's original plans.

Konami doesn't seem happy with Nintendo. That's one reason why I think Snake is not going to make the cut.

Mewtwo was well received and that didn't stop him from getting cut. Snake is no exception.

Yeah, I'm aware after Sonic's reveal shortly after it was announced there would be a delay to February. Shortly after Olimar's reveal in Jan, the game got delayed again to March. And most of Olimar's tracks are ripped from the source games. There's only like 2 original soundtracks from Pikmin. Let's blame Olimar too :O


Yes, I'm aware lots of tracks from Sonic's series were ripped. Like the other series's represented in the game. Didn't Snake have like 3 or 4 tracks rearranged out of 8 or 9?

And yes, Mewtwo was the only veteran from Melee to have his data be nearly complete, with his own voice box and victory music. The other data could have been left over data after Hal Laboratory provided the tools to Sora Ltd where they worked with Melee's framework.

There are a lot of things Sakurai planned that had to be cut. Like a competent Stage Builder. Would have been nice to see what things he had to cut...

 

[Morbi]

way I see it

if Sonic and Snake were both good enough to get in Smash

then they're both good enough to stay in Smash

all this other talk about who's more important to Nintendo and who has more history with them and whatnot is nothing more than comparing penis sizes lol it's irrelevant

This is how I feel currently. However, I can't help but wonder what they will do for 3rd party characters in Smash X (the one after Smash 4). Would they just keep Sonic and Snake assuming we get Snake back for Smash 4? It seems like they would be staple 3rd party characters at that point in time. That is what I am more interested in. I used to think Pac-Man was an obvious choice. However, if they add Pac-Man would they just cut him for Smash X and keep the other 3? This 3rd party predicting business is tricky.

People are just giving too much importance to that fact. Looking at Sakurai's criteria, Snake and Sonic (and Mega Man, too) are on the same level.

Besides, if Snake was well received by many players and made people want to play the game, why remove him in this sequel?


That is not nonsense. That is the truth. Sakurai even stated that Sonic wasn't in the initial plans, but was later added due to the immense demand by the Western fans. Hadn't Snake been revealed in Brawl's first trailer and I severely doubt that Sonic would've been as requested as he was.

Have you forgotten the fact that as soon Sonic was revealed, the game got delayed for a second time?

Have you also noticed how in the soundtrack, majority of Sonic's songs are ripped from their original games (and some were even shortened), while every other major series (Metal Gear included) had more rearranged songs?

Combine all those facts and it becomes blatantly obvious that Sonic's addition very likely caused the game to be delayed.



And you know how much backslash Mewtwo's removal caused, right? In fact, Mewtwo was originally going to be in Brawl, along with other characters that had to be dropped due to changes in Sakurai's original plans.

I like to think that Jigglypuff delayed Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

The only intended cuts were Young Link and Pichu.

Stop using Mewtwo as an example for Snake's removal.

 

[Frostwraith]

Yes, there is always the possibility of Snake not returning. But should that happen, it won't be because Sakurai willingly decided to remove him.

The likeliest reasons that can cause Snake to be cut could be:
- Licensing complications between Nintendo and Konami. These kind of agreements are never simple and linear.
- Time constraints. Sometimes, the team can't finish the product with everything they initially planned, hence the Forbidden 7 in Brawl.

Now, Sonic had a major advantage towards Snake. That cannot be denied. Nintendo already had a deal with Sega regarding Sonic Lost Worlds, Mario & Sonic at the Sochi Winter Olympics and curiously a third game, which many interpreted to be Smash Bros. and I wouldn't be surprised at all if said third game is, in fact, Smash Bros.

 

[κomıc]

I'm not using Mewtwo as the only example or reason Snake would be cut.​

​

I've already went over the reasons beyond that.​

Yes, there is always the possibility of Snake not returning. But should that happen, it won't be because Sakurai willingly decided to remove him.

The likeliest reasons that can cause Snake to be cut could be:
- Licensing complications between Nintendo and Konami. These kind of agreements are never simple and linear.
- Time constraints. Sometimes, the team can't finish the product with everything they initially planned, hence the Forbidden 7 in Brawl.

Now, Sonic had a major advantage towards Snake. That cannot be denied. Nintendo already had a deal with Sega regarding Sonic Lost Worlds, Mario & Sonic at the Sochi Winter Olympics and curiously a third game, which many interpreted to be Smash Bros. and I wouldn't be surprised at all if said third game is, in fact, Smash Bros.

And that's exactly the two points I've been trying to make. Licensing. Not because I hate or dislike Snake or don't want him in Smash 4. But people keep using the moveset excuse. And then I return with Mewtwo. It's not a good reason why a character would be kept.

People need to wrap their mind around the fact that Sakurai isn't publishing Smash Bros. Nintendo is.

Sakurai has to go through Nintendo, and Nintendo has to go through a third party.

Sakurai does not have the final say on who makes it into the final roster in regards to 3rd parties. There are hurdles. Even he himself said it was difficult to license Snake and Sonic. Nintendo are the ones paying Sora Ltd and Bamco Studios. They're the ones putting Smash Bros on the shelves. They're the publishers.

 

[Frostwraith]

I am well aware that the likeliest reason for Snake's possible cut is regarding licensing. Those matters are usually a pain in the ass for the developing companies.

Still, I would like to see Snake return in this game. I'm not really a fan of MGS and I actually never played a game of that series, but I liked his moveset and it stood out from the other characters. I'm hopeful that, if Sonic returned, so could Snake return too.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While it's simple enough to get Capcom, Namco-Bandai, and SEGA involved with Smash Wii U and Smash 3DS, dragging Konami into the mix could be way too excessive when you realize that a Namco-Bandai rep could be implemented instead.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Konami doesn't seem happy with Nintendo. That's one reason why I think Snake is not going to make the cut.

Uh based on what exactly?

 

[Bajef8]

The only intended cuts were Young Link and Pichu.

Stop using Mewtwo as an example for Snake's removal.

Really just Pichu. Toon Link is pretty much the spiritual successor of Young Link anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Unless Sakurai and Kojima have a falling out, very unlikely licensing will be that big of an issue.

 

[Morbi]

Yes, there is always the possibility of Snake not returning. But should that happen, it won't be because Sakurai willingly decided to remove him.

The likeliest reasons that can cause Snake to be cut could be:
- Licensing complications between Nintendo and Konami. These kind of agreements are never simple and linear.
- Time constraints. Sometimes, the team can't finish the product with everything they initially planned, hence the Forbidden 7 in Brawl.

Now, Sonic had a major advantage towards Snake. That cannot be denied. Nintendo already had a deal with Sega regarding Sonic Lost Worlds, Mario & Sonic at the Sochi Winter Olympics and curiously a third game, which many interpreted to be Smash Bros. and I wouldn't be surprised at all if said third game is, in fact, Smash Bros.

I have to agree. If there are licensing complications... Snake is gone. That alone is enough evidence for me to not support Snake. Until I know that he has acquired the necessary license, I am going to assume that Snake will not be returning. End of story. It is the most rational perspective. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Snake did come back. I am not going to assert how likely I think it is.

 

[Bajef8]

I have to agree. If there are licensing complications... Snake is gone. That alone is enough evidence for me to not support Snake. Until I know that he has acquired the necessary license, I am going to assume that Snake will not be returning. End of story. It is the most rational perspective. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Snake did come back. I am not going to assert how likely I think it is.

Still though, you gotta wonder why Konami wouldn't want one of their characters advertised for free.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Still though, you gotta wonder why Konami wouldn't want one of their characters advertised for free.

Think about what the Walt Disney company had to go through while making Wreck-It Ralph. I really don't think that Nintendo will ever go through that dilemma if the Smash Bros. series is primarily about the Nintendo characters.

 

[Chandeelure]

Snake=cut
THE END.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Wreck-It-Ralph had several cameos of characters from several different series under several different companies

not really the same thing

 

[Morbi]

Still though, you gotta wonder why Konami wouldn't want one of their characters advertised for free.

They don't need advertising. Metal Gear Solid is one of the biggest franchises out there. They already advertised to the Smash fanbase in Brawl. I mean I just don't think they will need it. Might they want it? Sure. I am not entirely convinced though. No license = no Snake. I don't want to get my hopes up for Big Boss (one of my favorite video game characters off ALL time). I have been hearing that Konami doesn't have a good relationship with Nintendo. I don't really know how valid that is, but if it is true, I think Snake is cut. I don't know what to think about it really. I am going to just sit back and wait it out. This is something that I don't want to be wrong about. I already asserted multiple times that Toon Link was going to be back. So I am 1 for 1 right now. I would hate to put a loss on my record.

 

[Bajef8]

Think about what the Walt Disney company had to go through while making Wreck-It Ralph. I really don't think that Nintendo will ever go through that dilemma if the Smash Bros. series is primarily about the Nintendo characters.

Yeah I'm not sure how adding Snake in would be an issue. You just have to run the model/movements etc... by Konami to make sure they approve of the way he looks and acts. They just make sure Snake is Snake. And seeing as Sakurai already implemented him before, I can't imagine that process would eat up much more additional time.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Wreck-It-Ralph had several cameos of characters from several different series under several different companies

not really the same thing

Cameos or not, you'd still have to pay the owners of the characters to use them.

 

[Zhadgon]

I'm not using Mewtwo as the only example or reason Snake would be cut.

I've already went over the reasons beyond that.




And that's exactly the two points I've been trying to make. Licensing. Not because I hate or dislike Snake or don't want him in Smash 4. But people keep using the moveset excuse. And then I return with Mewtwo. It's not a good reason why a character would be kept.

People need to wrap their mind around the fact that Sakurai isn't publishing Smash Bros. Nintendo is.

Sakurai has to go through Nintendo, and Nintendo has to go through a third party.

Sakurai does not have the final say on who makes it into the final roster in regards to 3rd parties. There are hurdles. Even he himself said it was difficult to license Snake and Sonic. Nintendo are the ones paying Sora Ltd and Bamco Studios. They're the ones putting Smash Bros on the shelves. They're the publishers.

Hey hey, its not only the moveset excuse, think before saying that or should I need to remind you of what he brings to the table. Please reread what did I post and then come back.
.n_n.

 

[Morbi]

Cameos or not, you'd still have the pay the owners of the characters to use them.

Disney bought out Marvel and Star Wars... I think they could afford it a little bit better than Nintendo could. Haha.

 

[Bajef8]

They don't need advertising. Metal Gear Solid is one of the biggest franchises out there. They already advertised to the Smash fanbase in Brawl. I mean I just don't think they will need it. Might they want it? Sure. I am not entirely convinced though. No license = no Snake. I don't want to get my hopes up for Big Boss (one of my favorite video game characters off ALL time). I have been hearing that Konami doesn't have a good relationship with Nintendo. I don't really know how valid that is, but if it is true, I think Snake is cut. I don't know what to think about it really. I am going to just sit back and wait it out. This is something that I don't want to be wrong about. I already asserted multiple times that Toon Link was going to be back. So I am 1 for 1 right now. I would hate to put a loss on my record.

Smash is massive. Konami would be stupid to pass up the opportunity to continue putting Snake in. It's one of the best selling Nintendo titles. It will further the fandom of those who have been exposed to him already as well as continue to rake in many more fans. Interest in Snake = MGS games sell more to those who wanna learn more about him.

 

[Frostwraith]

Licensing, copyright and other such issues are very prevalent in the making of anything that is a crossover between different companies.

I'm remembering the cases of Tatsunoko vs. Capcom and Project X Zone in which the developing companies had to deal with a crapload of such issues in order to have the games released outside of Japan.

 

[Morbi]

Smash is massive. Konami would be stupid to pass up the opportunity to continue putting Snake in. It's one of the best selling Nintendo titles. It will further the fandom of those who have been exposed to him already as well as continue to rake in many more fans. Interest in Snake = MGS games sell more to those who wanna learn more about him.

Just because it is a good business move doesn't mean it will happen. That is my argument. We have no way of knowing. Logically speaking, Konami would be crazy to pass up the opportunity. However, they might very well be insane. We don't know just yet. Don't get me wrong. I WANT Big Boss more than ANYONE (not including Jigglypuff).

 

[Hotfeet444]

Licensing, copyright and other such issues are very prevalent in the making of anything that is a crossover between different companies.

I'm remembering the cases of Tatsunoko vs. Capcom and Project X Zone in which the developing companies had to deal with a crapload of such issues in order to have the games released outside of Japan.

Well at least Tatsunoko vs. Capcom was a great success and definitely worth the trouble...X Zone on the other hand....not so much.

Edit: If anything, X Zone was the perfect example that three-way crossovers don't work. Seriously, with a roster of characters that bad, they might as well have not even attempted to try.

 

[Bajef8]

Just because it is a good business move doesn't mean it will happen. That is my argument. We have no way of knowing. Logically speaking, Konami would be crazy to pass up the opportunity. However, they might very well be insane. We don't know just yet. Don't get me wrong. I WANT Big Boss more than ANYONE (not including Jigglypuff).

Businesses don't make stupid decisions unless they are run poorly or on the decline. I'm a business major, I know these things haha. Konami nor Nintendo are in such a position, therefore it's smart to assume that they will likely want Snake in. If both parties are down, especially if Sakurai is down, Snake will most likely return. Really I think the biggest licensing issue would be Ninty themselves going, "Meh, we don't really need Snake in this game as a selling point anymore."

 

[Morbi]

Businesses don't make stupid decisions unless they are run poorly or on the decline. I'm a business major, I know these things haha. Konami nor Nintendo are in such a position, therefore it's smart to assume that they will likely want Snake in. If both parties are down, especially if Sakurai is down, Snake will most likely return. Really I think the biggest licensing issue would be Ninty themselves going, "Meh, we don't really need Snake in this game as a selling point anymore."

That was my thought exactly. I just didn't want people to bombard me with "Sakurai put Snake in once, SO HE IS COMING BACK AGAIN BECAUSE!!!!" I honestly think Nintendo has been making some pitiful business decisions in recent years. They are starting to clean up their act. Is it too little too late? Maybe. I am glad that they are using Smash as a huge Nintendo cross promoting medium. That was a very good decision.

 

[BKupa666]

People are still claiming Sonic and Snake are "exactly the same" and that "neither can live unless the other survives"? Come on. Our ability to discern should be way better than that by now, especially when it's between a character so popular, he was added last minute and who is essentially now a second party character, and a character who was added as a favor, no more, no less, and who gained much of his Smash popularity through Smash.

This is coming from someone who thinks it would be silly to cut Snake, and that he's probably coming back.

 

[Zhadgon]

Just because it is a good business move doesn't mean it will happen. That is my argument. We have no way of knowing. Logically speaking, Konami would be crazy to pass up the opportunity. However, they might very well be insane. We don't know just yet. Don't get me wrong. I WANT Big Boss more than ANYONE (not including Jigglypuff).

Well there are more positive things in bringing Snake again than pushing him over the cliff. For one both companies will benefit, Snake will get more representation and free RRPP (Public Relations) for Konami, for Nintendo it will bring more hype to the fans of Snake in Smash, to see the character back and the inclusion of a big series to that universe, not only that it brings a character that is already made and don´t need a lot of resources to be created (that brings too the music, stages, assist trophies, items and much more to the game). For a second it would mark a healthy relation for both companies, lets think about like a country that has an embassy in another country, if suddenly that country decides to remove that embassy probably the other country will start thinking that something is wrong and the situation could turn to worse for that simple fact. Third Kojima and Sakurai are good friends and both are really high in the hierarchy of both companies they have a lot of power to move the deal (if you have follow this thread, there is conversation between Iwata and Sakurai and both discuss the inclusion of Snake and Sonic, it seems that Sakurai has the last words on what is happening with project). Four if Sakurai wants to add again Snake he can ask as a favor to Kojima to lend him Snake again for Smash (Kojima will accept for the simple reason that is in debt with Sakurai for including the first time Snake in to Smash). For now those are the arguments.

.n_n.

 

[ChronoBound]

People are still claiming Sonic and Snake are "exactly the same" and that "neither can live unless the other survives"? Come on. Our ability to discern should be way better than that by now, especially when it's between a character so popular, he was added last minute and who is essentially now a second party character, and a character who was added as a favor, no more, no less, and who gained much of his Smash popularity through Smash.

This is coming from someone who thinks it would be silly to cut Snake, and that he's probably coming back.

That is exactly how I feel as well. Well said. Though personally, I feel more iffy about whether Snake is going to come back.

 

[Metal Overlord]

pleeeeease do not bring business and licensing into this

that just needlessly overcomplicates the situation

fact of the matter is, Snake and Sonic, both third parties, were in the previous Smash installment, and Sonic is back so naturally Snake should return as well

of course there can be unforeseen events like time constraints and licensing issues that may cause Snake to be removed, I don't think that really needs to be explained or elaborated on

let's just focus on what's concrete, not what's just arbitrary

 

[Morbi]

I just kind of felt like typing up some of my predictions.

1. Characters I think will make it into Smash 4.
- Mewtwo
- Palutena
- Dixie Kong (King K. Rool)
- Little Mac
- Pacman

2. Characters I want to make it into Smash 4 that are somewhat likely.
- Ridley
- Roy
- Tingle
- Toad
- Black Shadow (Goroh)

We had 12 newcomers in Smash 64. 14 newcomers in Melee. 18 newcomers in Brawl. My list has 10 potential newcomers not including the initial 3 that launched with the game. So I highly doubt each and every one of these characters will make it. Just some of my predictions. I would be happy to see any one of them.

Toad and Tingle are on the list because of their Japanese popularity. I know it isn't really feasible to expect another Mario or Zelda newcomer. Hence, these are just on the list because I like them.

 

[ChronoBound]

The Japanese are not interested in Tingle coming to Smash Bros. though.

Toad is very popular in Japan, though Japanese Smash Bros. fans are pessimistic on his chances.

 

[Morbi]

The Japanese are not interested in Tingle coming to Smash Bros. though.

Toad is very popular in Japan, though Japanese Smash Bros. fans are pessimistic on his chances.

Yeah. They are just on the list because I like them. I don't really think they are too likely.

pleeeeease do not bring business and licensing into this

that just needlessly overcomplicates the situation

fact of the matter is, Snake and Sonic, both third parties, were in the previous Smash installment, and Sonic is back so naturally Snake should return as well

of course there can be unforeseen events like time constraints and licensing issues that may cause Snake to be removed, I don't think that really needs to be explained or elaborated on

let's just focus on what's concrete, not what's just arbitrary

There is nothing concrete about Snake as of current. I wouldn't call his appearance in Brawl (as a favor) precedent. The only concrete thing we have to discuss is the legitimacy of his licensing. Some people like me are not going to assume he is in just because of his sheer popularity. Others assume that the move would be beneficial for both companies and that there is no way that they wouldn't license Snake out to Nintendo for Smash 4. The only concrete notion is that Sora Ltd. needs approval. We don't even know whether or not Sakurai will seek the approval.

 

[Zhadgon]

Probably the list of possibly new comers:
Mewtwo
Roy
Palutena
Mii
Pac-Man
Little Mac
Ridley
King K. Rool
Dixie
Black Shadow
Isaac
Shulk
Starfy
Takamaru

Edited: I forgot about Chrom
.n_n.

 

[Bajef8]

pleeeeease do not bring business and licensing into this

that just needlessly overcomplicates the situation

fact of the matter is, Snake and Sonic, both third parties, were in the previous Smash installment, and Sonic is back so naturally Snake should return as well

of course there can be unforeseen events like time constraints and licensing issues that may cause Snake to be removed, I don't think that really needs to be explained or elaborated on

let's just focus on what's concrete, not what's just arbitrary

Business and licensing are a big point of Snake's discussion though. We aren't just gonna ignore those things because you don't understand them. Snake and all 3rd Party inclusions all have business and licensing issues/reasons for being in Smash. It just helps that Sonic and Mega Man are also massively popular and big gaming icons. Snake isn't nearly as large as those 2, thus business/licensing are much more prominent in his case.

 

[Louie G.]

Probably the list of possibly new comers:
Mewtwo
Roy
Palutena
Mii
Pac-Man
Little Mac
Ridley
King K. Rool
Dixie
Black Shadow
Isaac
Shulk
Starfy
Takamaru

Edited: I forgot about Chrom
.n_n.

Eh...
My list goes more like this.
Paper Mario, King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Ridley, Mewtwo, Palutena, Little Mac, Chrom, Takamaru, Mii, Shulk, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, Pac-Man