Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Rebellious Treecko]

Toad. Then Paper Mario or Bowser Jr. Then nobody. Then Waluigi. Then any other Mario character. Then Baby Daisy. Then Baby Daisy In Her Sports Outfit.

*Baby Dr. Metal Tanooki Daisy in her sports outfit.

----

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I would say Bowser Jr.> Toad > Paper Mario > Waluigi > Rosalina > Birdo > the rest

But I feel a possible Mario newcomer is fairly unlikely already.

 

[Gormanbros]

*Baby Dr. Metal Tanooki Daisy in her sports outfit.

^This.

In all seriousness, Toad.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Toad > Bowser Jr. > Paper Mario > Waluigi

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Toad > Bowser Jr. > Waluigi > Paper Mario > Daisy

I feel like we already talked about this a week or so ago...did we?

 

[SuperBrawler]

New topic?

 

[Starbound]

IMO, Bowser Jr = Paper Mario > Toad > everyone else

I think Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario have lots of moveset potential when compared to Toad and everything Toad can do is already done by Mario or Luigi, except for like... Ice Flowers and a Propeller Hat.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Misc. Character Topic.

 

[Gune]

New topic?

Suggestions?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Misc. Character Topic.

Probably the only one that finds the unrepresented stuff to be more interesting then expanding on the already established franchises, because the options seem much more interesting. Also I'm probably the only person that considers "retro" and "misc" to be one in the same because **** double standard labeling.

Anyway, many of the choices I would actually enjoy currently are not part of an established franchise. My top five is probably Takamaru, Shulk, Lip, Little Mac, and a toss up between Dillon and Andy.

 

[Curious Villager]

Nah I agree with you Habanero. I'd like to see some more unrepresented series getting a playable character too actually.

 

[Swift Fox]

Toad is more long-running, has been playable in 3 and soon to be 4 main series Mario games (games by Nintendo EAD, that is), is more recognizable to the everyman, isn't a Tiny Toons version of another character, is the only character from Mario 1 that isn't playable (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toad), only playable from Mario 2 that isn't playable (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad), has had his own spin-off in Wario's Woods and to my knowledge hasn't been absent from a Mario game since Super Mario World(?).

Take your pick.

Yet Bowser Jr. is a 2nd antagonist just after Bowser. There are enough hero reps for Mario series already and there's only one evil rep. I think Bowser Jr. deserve a spot more than Toad, even though Toad has been in Mario series much longer, he's not as important as Bowser Jr. (in term of hero/anti-hero)

 

[CalumG]

Yet Bowser Jr. is a 2nd anti-hero protagonist just after Bowser. There are enough hero reps for Mario series already and there's only one evil rep.

Except Sakurai doesn't just put characters in based on whether they're good or bad. He puts characters in based on importance, popularity, relevance (cue the sound of angry gunshots in the background) and all number of other factors but I think it's pretty clear he doesn't put characters in just because "there's enough hero reps" or to sway the roster in favour of a certain demographic (villains, females, non-sword users, etc.).

I think Bowser Jr. deserve a spot more than Toad, even though Toad has been in Mario series much longer, he's not as important as Bowser Jr.

Yeah nothing says unimportant like playable roles. And spin-off games.

Neither of which Bowser Jr. has.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Yet Bowser Jr. is a 2nd anti-hero protagonist just after Bowser. There are enough hero reps for Mario series already and there's only one evil rep. I think Bowser Jr. deserve a spot more than Toad, even though Toad has been in Mario series much longer, he's not as important as Bowser Jr.

The opposite of what you just said?

Really, Toad is BY FAR way more important then Bowser Jr. And I'm fine with just one evil.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yet Bowser Jr. is a 2nd anti-hero protagonist just after Bowser. There are enough hero reps for Mario series already and there's only one evil rep. I think Bowser Jr. deserve a spot more than Toad, even though Toad has been in Mario series much longer, he's not as important as Bowser Jr. (in term of hero/anti-hero)

Protagonist?

You mean Antagonist.

 

[N3ON]

As for Misc. characters, I'd say Little Mac, Isaac, Shulk, and Starfy would all be good choices. Mii is another, but personally I'd rather they weren't included.

Saki, Andy, Dillon, Ray, etc. would also be interesting characters, but I very much doubt their inclusion.

Also I'm probably the only person that considers "retro" and "misc" to be one in the same because **** double standard labeling.

Well then you'd probably be the only person that was wrong then.
Sakurai has stated (at least for Melee and Smash 4) that he specifically chose a "classic character". And with Melee, he made the designation that the slot for a classic character was chosen before the character itself was even chosen (and logically it wouldn't be too much of a stretch if he's done this since), so obviously when he includes characters like the Ice Climbers they have different standards to meet than Olimar or something. If "retros" were subjugated to the same standards that the average Nintendo character was, it'd be unlikely we'd have gotten any of them.

It might be a double standard that retros don't have to meet as strict conditions or face as tough competition as normal characters, but their inclusion is hardly "one in the same" as your typical character.

 

[Swift Fox]

Protagonist?

You mean Antagonist.

Thanks for pointing it out XD

Added to my vocabulary list

Except Sakurai doesn't just put characters in based on whether they're good or bad. He puts characters in based on importance, popularity, relevance (cue the sound of angry gunshots in the background) and all number of other factors but I think it's pretty clear he doesn't put characters in just because "there's enough hero reps" or to sway the roster in favour of a certain demographic (villains, females, non-sword users, etc.).



Yeah nothing says unimportant like playable roles. And spin-off games.

Neither of which Bowser Jr. has.

I happens to see many more reasons supporting Bowser Jr.'s inclusion over Toad in Smash. I ain't good at argument so I think you know what I was thinking for Bowser Jr. VS Toad? Something like moveset potential, I happens to see Toad a very bland character addition for Smash due to lack of creativity, something like that.

At least it's just my opinion.

Bowser Jr. > Paper Mario > Toad > Everything else.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash has never followed the typical fighter archetype. Even though they might share some elements using other fighters as a guideline for Smash isn't the best idea.

That said, while cuts are probably pretty likely to some extent, I wouldn't say they're guaranteed.

And if you'd care to list the differences you'd see how far it varies from most other fighters (before all the imitators started... and not counting Outfoxies I guess).

I never said it wasn't a fighter, I said it's different from the typical archetype... which it it. Having similarities doesn't mean there aren't differences.

Mmm, I gonna have to hop in on this one...

It is not your typical fighter, you are indeed correct, it's what can be classified as a "platform fighter" one that has both a 'party' focus, but also some 'competitive' elements.

However, being a fighter it does indeed follow many trends set by previous fighters. You are correct in that Smash does indeed try to reinvent the wheel with its formula (and it is very successful at that tbh), by doing things such as removing the HP bars, not having Super meters, adding in items, making stages more dynamic, etc... It does indeed breathe new life into a genre that is littered with SF clones.

Still, you can list off all the differences you want, but some things still remain true to the genre. It's clear Sakurai DOES indeed keep some guidelines in check, and as much as I hate pattern-like thinking, we can rest assured that some patterns have so far remained true.

The most notable ones being:
a) there is a set of 'beginner-friendly' characters that are very balanced and even follow the shotokan standard made by Capcom with Ryu an Ken.
b) there are variations of characters in the form of clones, those of which are more prominent in the early installments of the series.
c) when the roster is over-crowded or limited by time, cuts are made

Now while I personally wouldn't use the "patterns" argument as a reason for why cuts will happen in Smash 4 (as it IS a strawman argument), I am certain that they will happen regardless, plain and simple because the potential roster is too large, and Sakurai has already stated 1) to have preference for unique concepts over anything else for Smash fighters, in my take this includes both newcomers and vets altogether (and if evidence from Brawl data is to be taken into account, I don't see why Smash 4 would be any different), and 2) that adding a new character increases the workload exponentially, due to balancing and the like. In fact, I would even say that I am 99.9% certain there will be cuts for Smash 4, if not, I will eat my shoe.


EDIT: I said 'indeed' a lot of times in this post...

Anyone wanna count?

This is why I shouldn't stay up so late... Hahahahaha

 

[FlareHabanero]

What is considered misc and retro has been ***** so badly that I just say "**** it" and lump them together. I don't care what Sakurai had said, it's just more of a personal preference for the sake of keeping things simple. Also "misc" means miscellaneous anyway, so by technical standards it does make sense in context.

 

[Gene]

Yet Bowser Jr. is a 2nd anti-hero protagonist just after Bowser. There are enough hero reps for Mario series already and there's only one evil rep. I think Bowser Jr. deserve a spot more than Toad, even though Toad has been in Mario series much longer, he's not as important as Bowser Jr. (in term of hero/anti-hero)

But Bowser IS all we need for an evil rep/villain. Well for now at least. It's like when people ask for more Zelda villains like Skull Kid, Vaati, and Ghirahim when all we need is Ganondorf and his move set to be completely accurate for once. Or he can be a Mario clone this time, at least Ganon will be able to reflect with his cape and have a projectile.

 

[CalumG]

I happens to see many more reasons supporting Bowser Jr.'s inclusion over Toad in Smash. I ain't good at argument so I think you know what I was thinking for Bowser Jr. VS Toad?

At least it's just my opinion.

Bowser Jr. > Paper Mario > Toad > Everything else.

The only reasons I've ever had cited for Toad's lack of inclusion over Bowser Jr. is the whole person/species thing (but Yoshi renders that null and void) and the fact that Toad is a bit cowardly or otherwise 'doesn't seem like a fighter' (which Luigi disproves). I've yet to see good reasons for Bowser Jr's inclusion over Toad.

Not that I mind of course if Bowser Jr. gets in, but I've seen nothing to convince me that he's more deserving or has more to offer.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah the two characters who definitely got the chance to make it in are indeed King. K. Rool and Dixie Kong. It's a shame K. Rool hasn't been appearing much lately in the DK series but I'm pretty sure that won't stop him from making it into the Super Smash Bros series.

I wonder, is K. Rool's situation you just described similar to Geno's, only more unlikely to be in?

 

[Deleted member]

I would say Bowser Jr.> Toad > Paper Mario > Waluigi > Rosalina > Birdo > the rest

But I feel a possible Mario newcomer is fairly unlikely already.

I'll use yours since yours was the mst agreeable one Venus.

Imo

Bowser Jr. = Paper Mario > Toad >> Waluigi > anyone else from Mario.

Also, I think a Mario newcomer is very possible, a Zelda newcomer on the other hand... no so much.

 

[SuperBrawler]

The only reasons I've ever had cited for Toad's lack of inclusion over Bowser Jr. is the whole person/species thing (but Yoshi renders that null and void) and the fact that Toad is a bit cowardly or otherwise 'doesn't seem like a fighter' (which Luigi disproves). I've yet to see good reasons for Bowser Jr's inclusion over Toad.

Not that I mind of course if Bowser Jr. gets in, but I've seen nothing to convince me that he's more deserving or has more to offer.

Agreed. Also the whole person species thing. There's multiple Pikachu, Lucario, Jiggz, etc etc etc

 

[BluePikmin11]

Toad > Baby Mario and Baby Luigi > Bowser Jr. = Paper Mario > Waluigi.

 

[Curious Villager]

I wonder, is K. Rool's situation you just described similar to Geno's, only more unlikely to be in?

Nah K. Rool is definitely much more likely of becoming playable in Smash than Geno is. At least K. Rool doesn't have any licensing issues which I've heard is plaguing Geno. :T

 

[N3ON]

Mmm, I gonna have to hop in on this one...

It is not your typical fighter, you are indeed correct, it's what can be classified as a "platform fighter" one that has both a 'party' focus, but also some 'competitive' elements.

However, being a fighter it does indeed follow many trends set by previous fighters. You are correct in that Smash does indeed try to reinvent the wheel with its formula (and it is very successful at that tbh), by doing things such as removing the HP bars, not having Super meters, adding in items, making stages more dynamic, etc... It does indeed breathe new life into a genre that is littered with SF clones.

Still, you can list off all the differences you want, but some things still remain true to the genre. It's clear Sakurai DOES indeed keep some guidelines in check, and as much as I hate pattern-like thinking, we can rest assured that some patterns have so far remained true.

I wasn't try to say that Smash completely deviates from every other fighting game out there in every way, I was saying that comparing it to other fighting games (that existed before Smash popularized both the mascot fighter and the platform fighter) to try and predict what the future of Smash will be, and using logic such as "this happens in other fighting games, therefore it must also happen in Smash" is a bit of a flawed way of looking at things. And not even from a solely gameplay perspective. Obviously there are gameplay differences between Smash and the fighters that existed previously, but I also was referring to situations such as when people say "3rd-parties won't return because no other fighter has had them return", while, true, this can't be proven incorrect yet, just because it happened in another fighter doesn't mean Smash will adhere to it. That's all I was saying, of course there are many similarities, if there weren't calling it a fighting game would be debatable as a whole.

Disregarding all the games that have tried to emulate Smash in one way or another, and acknowledging that there are many similarities (which I never denied) I stand by Smash being an atypical fighter, and not just from a gameplay perspective.

What is considered misc and retro has been ***** so badly that I just say "**** it" and lump them together. I don't care what Sakurai had said, it's just more of a personal preference for the sake of keeping things simple. Also "misc" means miscellaneous anyway, so by technical standards it does make sense in context.

Lumping things together really would only complicate things when a character with one game in their series (a game that didn't even do great) can get included yet another who has received many games in their series, some selling over a million units, doesn't get included. If they were really in the same category, something like that wouldn't happen.

But yeah, "retro", "misc", whatever... they're all fan terms. The only one Sakurai has used is "classic" and as far as we know that only applies to characters from the NES era.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I guess why establishing new franchises instead of expanding old franchises is better because it leads to a much broader selection of characters to choose from, which in itself is a positive thing because people generally like diversity. Generally speaking all of the franchises that are currently represented are arguably complete and don't require any more characters, so it would be a wise move to look into introducing new material for the sake of keeping up the mentality of diversity in hand and showing Nintendo's ever expansive heritage.

 

[Swift Fox]

The only reasons I've ever had cited for Toad's lack of inclusion over Bowser Jr. is the whole person/species thing (but Yoshi renders that null and void) and the fact that Toad is a bit cowardly or otherwise 'doesn't seem like a fighter' (which Luigi disproves). I've yet to see good reasons for Bowser Jr's inclusion over Toad.

Not that I mind of course if Bowser Jr. gets in, but I've seen nothing to convince me that he's more deserving or has more to offer.

check my previous post as I edited there

I wonder how will Sakurai make up movesets for Toad?

 

[CalumG]

Given that we've seen Nintendogs and Pilotwings stages, and recieved three reps from new franchises so far, I can get on-board with the sentiment that more franchises is better and may in fact be the route Sakurai is taking.

Yes, I know stages don't count for much and certainly don't mean they'll get a character (uhhgghh Nintendog no thank u) but it does show, if nothing else, that Sakurai is taking a greater interest in representing a wider selection of franchises. If we look at it from a Brawl perspective, where stages and characters got "franchise icons", then we have at least 4 new franchise icons so far just from the content we've seen. Apart from maybe three or four characters (Ridley, new Pokemon rep, new Fire Emblem rep, and a new DK rep/Mario rep/Zelda rep), I wouldn't turn my nose up at the idea of all the new characters being representatives of new franchises, or those otherwise not yet represented.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Oh heck yeah, the more franchises the better.

Brawl kinda went overboard, adding from 1 to 4 playable characters to already existing franchises.
I think it would only be fair to have NEW franchises represented in the roster.

Maybe just 3 more already repped franchise characters, and that's it.
Ridley, K.Rool, and Robin would be my picks.

The rest should be completely new franchise representatives.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Maybe just 3 more already repped franchise characters, and that's it..

xbox go home

I guess why establishing new franchises instead of expanding old franchises is better because it leads to a much broader selection of characters to choose from, which in itself is a positive thing because people generally like diversity. Generally speaking all of the franchises that are currently represented are arguably complete and don't require any more characters, so it would be a wise move to look into introducing new material for the sake of keeping up the mentality of diversity in hand and showing Nintendo's ever expansive heritage.

^ This. I have mixed feelings. I think it's okay for lower franchises like Golden Sun, F-Zero, and Mother to see some love (Especially because **** you they won't in their actual series even with sequels you KNOW this) considering we don't see them often or will never see them again and they're franchises, not just one-offs, but I don't think we need to add in say BOTH Toad AND Bowser Jr

 

[TheLastJinjo]

There is nothing wrong with King K. Rool at all, but you guys seem way to sure it's gonna be him and not Dixie

As for Mario's likeliness I say it goes Paper Mario > Toad > Bowser Jr.

You're right. Link is the most important character in Zelda. Which is why we have Link. Toon Link is Link. Link is Toon Link. They may be different visually and even on the timeline, but they all represent the hero just the same. Again, I'm not saying Toon Link will be removed - I'm not even saying he should be removed - but to call him more important than other characters is a bit iffy because the role of representing the hero can easily be done by the one Link. Removing Toon Link and adding, say, Tingle (just as an example, don't go picking apart Tingle's negative points) wouldn't be removing a character for a less important one - it'd be consolidating Link's representation into a single spot. Link is still there. Toon Link is Link.

Nah, having a second Link is more important than Tingle. I don't know about but I wouldn't be sufficed with just adult Link.

 

[CalumG]

Wow, people seem really sure it's gonna be King K. Rool and not Dixie...


Nah, having a second Link is more important than Tingle. I don't know about but I wouldn't be sufficed with just adult Link.

You missed the point. I specifically said to ignore the fact that I used Tingle as an example - the point I was making is that one Link can represent all Link's if necessary. Link is currently the only character on the roster to have a legit double, and if Sakurai is really striving for unique character slots he'll recognize that two versions of the same character is not unique.

inb4 theyre all different links cos thyme line

 

[Curious Villager]

Guys we already went past that topic, let it die now. Whatever happens to the Zelda roster is up to Sakurai.

 

[zauberdragon]

Personally, I look at Mario characters as:

none at all >Bowser Jr. >Toad >Paper Mario

Waluigi doesn't get a mention seeing as he's such an awful, generic, waste of a character

 

[CalumG]

Guys we already went past that topic, let it die now. Whatever happens to the Zelda roster is up to Sakurai.

Whatever happens to the roster in general is up to Sakurai, I guess we shouldn't discuss the roster at all then?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Personally, I look at Mario characters as:

none at all >Bowser Jr. >Toad >Paper Mario

lol! I say it's actually the exact opposite way around. Also a lot of us may think Mario shouldn't get new reps, but that doesn't mean it won't. Especially since it hasn't had a new rep for a while.

Compared to Zelda & Pokemon it's under repped. Sure we have all the characters we need, but it's not like Kirby & Zelda where they are the only necessary characters available.

 

[Curious Villager]

Whatever happens to the roster in general is up to Sakurai, I guess we shouldn't discuss the roster at all then?

Nah by all means feel free, But going back and forth of wether a second Link is important or not is getting us nowhere, so lets leave the Zelda roster be for now and move on to whatever the rest of the people are discussing. But if you want to continue arguing then fine, go ahead and forget what I said.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Guys we already went past that topic, let it die now. Whatever happens to the Zelda roster is up to Sakurai.

let's not talk about anything because it's up to the producer staff

okay

who isnt able to wait for smash 4 guys