Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[shinhed-echi]

Who's the guy second to the left?

That's Fighter Hayabusa, from Pro-Wrestling.

(Most famous for the meme "A winner is you!")

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's Fighter Hayabusa, from Pro-Wrestling.

(Most famous for the meme "A winner is you!")

Ah... I get it!

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Roy was not a flavor of the month thing. He was added because he stood out the most out of the possible Marth clones at the time. Since then Roy has grown in popularity. In Japan he's the most popular GBA lord. More popular than Lyn, Hector, Emphiram, etc. And this is mainly due to the love of the game there. That is FE6. Ask Chrono for more information. Here of course Melee is the only reason we particularly care about him, BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY GAME WE'VE GOTTEN, that had him in it (disregarding Awakening DLC). If we had FE6 I assure you, he'd be loved as he really is an important part of FE. His game gave the series new life after the series was on a long and painful hiatus. He's a lot more important then you think.

And why replace Ike? For Chrom? Why can't they coexsist? They are different after all. And why both Chrom AND Robin? Two Awakening slots baffles me.

But why is FE6 popular over there?
Was it because one of the reasons Roy was added in Melee was to advertise his game?

I know Sakurai chose him as the clone because his flaming Sword of Seals made him stand out a little, but I think Intelligent Systems suggested him to advertise FE6.

----

 

[shinhed-echi]

Ah... I get it!

You know, it's unusual for Nintendo to make such a buff main character, they're usually small and underpowered when compared to their opponents, but not Fighter Hayabusa.

I used to support him a lot more, but I can only support one super-obcure character at a time, lol.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Roy was added because Fire Swords are cool and Sakurai took a liking to the character-originally he was going to go with Leif, but Roy was deemed more visually appeasing... He was removed due to time constraints alongside Mewtwo, most likely due to Sonic's late inclusion.

I'm still confused why everyone seems to think Ike replaced Roy, and Roy was only added originally purely as advertisement.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But why is FE6 popular over there? Mainly because it gave a new breath of fresh air to the series. Roy's game kept the series alive. They hadn't seen a game since the Super Nintendo. Plus its just a good game. People like good games.
Was it because one of the reasons Roy was added in Melee was to advertise his game? Partially, like every character that's ever included in smash, but Japan does seem to love weaker lords for some reason. Plus many people there just dig his personality. Differences in culture I suppose. They just like Roy, and they would still like Roy even if Melee never happened.

I know Sakurai chose him as the clone because his flaming Sword of Seals made him stand out a little, but I think Intelligent Systems suggested him to advertise FE6. Except IS didn't suggest Roy. Sakurai got a sneak peek, but IS never suggested anyone until Ike for Brawl.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

You know, it's unusual for Nintendo to make such a buff main character, they're usually small and underpowered when compared to their opponents, but not Fighter Hayabusa.

I used to support him a lot more, but I can only support one super-obcure character at a time, lol.

Y'know...your post made me think.
What if the ring stage in SSB4 WiiU is meant to represent both Punch-Out!!! and Pro Wrestling? Maybe that could explain why it has a generic Smash Bros title on the floor.

I don't know much about sports, but boxing and wrestling matches take place in similar rings, and having a boxer (Little Mac) vs. a wrestler (Hayabusa) would be interesting, I guess.

----

 

[Glaciacott]

Because he's the only character who appeared in Smash before appearing in his game. That's pure advertisement and I agree with Rebellious Treecko that w.e. reasons we get for his inclusion, it probably boils down to Intelligent Systems requesting for him to be considered.

And Ike is not being seen as a replacement as much as someone from Fire Emblem who competes with Roy for a future spot.

 

[Deleted member]

Ringside Wrestler > Fighter Hayabusa.

Tru fax.

 

[AEMehr]

As for Medusa, I kind of don't like the idea of a cloneless roster and don't have any other franchises to represent. All I have left to add is Sheriff.

You still have Toon Link and Falco.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because he's the only character who appeared in Smash before appearing in his game. That's pure advertisement and I agree with Rebellious Treecko that w.e. reasons we get for his inclusion, it probably boils down to Intelligent Systems requesting for him to be considered.

You got proof for that? That's a bold claim to make without evidence.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Y'know...your post made me think.
What if the ring stage in SSB4 WiiU is meant to represent both Punch-Out!!! and Pro Wrestling? Maybe that could explain why it has a generic Smash Bros title on the floor.

I don't know much about sports, but boxing and wrestling matches take place in similar rings, and having a boxer (Little Mac) vs. a wrestler (Hayabusa) would be interesting, I guess.

----

Heh, I thought about this the second I saw the smash logo on the ring floor.

It was later when I learned the sad truth that Wrestling rings have 3 ropes... But eh... details.

Still, boxer vs wrestler would be great.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Honestly I always thought the ring looked more Wrestler than Boxing, hence why I was so surprised at everyone seeing it as confirmation that Little Mac was a dead cert.

I may be wrong of course, and I hope I am. Little Mac's a lot more deserving than say...Rawk Hawk.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm pretty sure Roy was added because his game was either just released or about to release.
Also, most popular GBA lord doesn't mean much when he's standing against the likes of Marth, the original bad boy of the franchise, Ike, easily one of the most beloved lords from the entry that brought back Fire Emblem to consoles, and any Awakening rep, considering Fire Emblem Awakening put this series in the hands of a lot of people who had overlooked Fire Emblem before. FE6 is tickles compared to Awakening.
.

You do know FE9 was the WORST selling game in the series in Japan right? FE10 was also only one of three games in the series to sell below 200K. In the West, sales for FE9 and FE10 were below the two international GBA titles as well.

Secondly, Ike was no more beloved than any of other international lords (he was basically on par with Lyn and Hector prior to Brawl), up until his appearance in Brawl, which boosted way beyond the other international lords.

And how is FE6 "tickles" compared to FE13? In Japan, FE6 is better regarded than FE13 is.

Also, as Swampasaur, said, FE6 brought the series back from the dead in Japan (FE5 bombed pretty badly there), and for most people it brought the series back into the spotlight there. Roy brought many people to the Fire Emblem series, and many people loved using him.

In the West, he is among the Top 5 most wanted characters for Smash 4, and in Japan, the only character that seems to get more requests than him is Mewtwo. Really, it seems as though anti-Roy people simply let their animus blind their judgment.

I really have to wonder where the animus comes from. Many of them have not even played FE6, and Roy as a character offers just as much as Chrom (perhaps more so). So I think it really is derived fromk a lot of "myths" about Roy that were derived from the pre-Brawl days (namely that Sakurai was not the one who selected Roy and that the Japanese did not like FE6).

I know Sakurai chose him as the clone because his flaming Sword of Seals made him stand out a little, but I think Intelligent Systems suggested him to advertise FE6.

----

No. Sakurai was given a sneak peak of FE6 while he went to Intelligent Systems for permission to use a second FE character. Sakurai saw Roy and his planned abilities (namely the fire motif to the Sword of Seals), and felt that was a character that would work best to complement Marth.

Keep in mind Sakurai is a huge fan of the FE series (even Iwata, the president of Nintendo, has remarked on Sakurai's love for the series). Sakurai is even thanked in the credits to FE6.

Sakurai even did the Iwata Asks for FE11, and has a copy of FE3 downloaded onto his Wii.

 

[Gune]

No. Sakurai was given a sneak peak of FE6 while he went to Intelligent Systems for permission to use a second FE character. Sakurai saw Roy and his planned abilities (namely the fire motif to the Sword of Seals), and felt that was a character that would work best to complement Marth.

Keep in mind Sakurai is a huge fan of the FE series (even Iwata, the president of Nintendo, has remarked on Sakurai's love for the series). Sakurai is even thanked in the credits to FE6.

Sakurai even did the Iwata Asks for FE11, and has a copy of FE3 downloaded onto his Wii.

Wow never knew sakurai was such a fan of FE...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly I always thought the ring looked more Wrestler than Boxing, hence why I was so surprised at everyone seeing it as confirmation that Little Mac was a dead cert.

I may be wrong of course, and I hope I am. Little Mac's a lot more deserving than say...Rawk Hawk.

It's a boxing ring. Boxing rings have four ropes. Wrestling rings have three.

The stage has four ropes. It's a boxing ring.

 

[shinhed-echi]

It's a boxing ring. Boxing rings have four ropes. Wrestling rings have three.

The stage has four ropes. It's a boxing ring.

Since we're still talking about boxing/wrestling..

Here's a photoshop/moveset for Fighter Hayabusa I did 2 years ago.
(not that anyone asked, lol, I know)

Posting it here since I very much doubt I would make a whole support thread for him.
... then again, there are threads for far less likely characters.

 

[Glaciacott]

You do know FE9 was the WORST selling game in the series in Japan right? FE10 was also only one of three games in the series to sell below 200K. In the West, sales for FE9 and FE10 were below the two international GBA titles as well.

Secondly, Ike was no more beloved than any of other international lords (he was basically on par with Lyn and Hector prior to Brawl), up until his appearance in Brawl, which boosted way beyond the other international lords.

And how is FE6 "tickles" compared to FE13? In Japan, FE6 is better regarded than FE13 is.

Also, as Swampasaur, said, FE6 brought the series back from the dead in Japan (FE5 bombed pretty badly there), and for most people it brought the series back into the spotlight there. Roy brought many people to the Fire Emblem series, and many people loved using him.

In the West, he is among the Top 5 most wanted characters for Smash 4, and in Japan, the only character that seems to get more requests than him is Mewtwo. Really, it seems as though anti-Roy people simply let their animus blind their judgment.

I really have to wonder where the animus comes from. Many of them have not even played FE6, and Roy as a character offers just as much as Chrom (perhaps more so). So I think it really is derived fromk a lot of "myths" about Roy that were derived from the pre-Brawl days (namely that Sakurai was not the one who selected Roy and that the Japanese did not like FE6).

Path of Radiance selling below the GBA titles makes sense considering alone just how much the GBA sold over the Gamecube.
Ike being included in the game says more about what Intelligent Systems perceives about its series than anything, and yes, Hector and Lyn were just as liked (heck, I was rooting for Lyn due to her being the first international FE lord) but they chose Ike.
Awakening is by far the most successful Fire Emblem game across the world. Perhaps FE6 did revitalize the series, but Awakening is placing it on the tier of more successful Nintendo franchises, especially in terms of critical reception. Awakening is the first one to get such media and public attention everywhere, and it arguably perfects the formula.
To think Intelligent Systems would prefer to get Roy in this game instead of riding the Awakening success van is absurd. And yes, it's a question of either or because, again, Fire Emblem getting as many reps as Zelda and Mario is something I wouldn't bet on, especially when every potential character but Robin only promotes the idea of more Lord sword-user characters in a game that, Sakurai mentions, desires variety.

As for requests, I personally am of the belief that were it not for Melee, Roy would not be such a popular character with such high demand. And while Sakurai listens to requests, in terms of Fire Emblem he's also likely to listen to what Intelligent Systems will recommend seeing how that's happened before (particularly when it came to including Roy, a character that HAD NOT been in a game before Melee.)

As for my, um, "animus", I speak both as a fan of Smash and of Fire Emblem. I played FE6, and to me Roy was just uninteresting, and the game as a whole didn't have the sheer content or replayability of its sequel or later Fire Emblem games. As a lord, Roy was just uninteresting and his character has been done in much better ways in other installments. As a Lord and character, he's just not interesting enough for Smash and really his main claim to uniqueness is his weapon having fire. Sure, I agree Chrom is about as interesting, which is why I would support the idea of Robin/Tactician instead since even the avatar unit in Awakening had a more significant story arc.

But really, my opinion on Roy aside, it's a matter of Marth having priority, Awakening deserving a rep, and Ike probably getting the spot over Roy. Like doctor mario and Pichu, I see him as a Melee only, and I'd be genuinely surprised if he came back.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Slightly related since Nintendo Wars is a sister series to Fire Emblem.

It's come to my attention that Andy does not have a support thread.

Should I make one for him? Would we have more than one supporter, I mean.

 

[MexM]

Slightly related since Nintendo Wars is a sister series to Fire Emblem.

It's come to my attention that Andy does not have a support thread.

Should I make one for him? Would we have more than one supporter, I mean.

Go for it. I was surprised when I saw Sami and Grunt having one but yet Andy didn't.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'd be down with either Andy or Sami as Nintendo Wars rep. Heck; I'd be down with a Nintendo Wars rep. That series gets very little love.

 

[ChronoBound]

Awakening is by far the most successful Fire Emblem game across the world. Perhaps FE6 did revitalize the series, but Awakening is placing it on the tier of more successful Nintendo franchises, especially in terms of critical reception. Awakening is the first one to get such media and public attention everywhere, and it arguably perfects the formula.

Nope. FE7 received just as much sales and acclaim as FE13 did internationally. I am not sure if you were around then, but FE7 got just as much attention and praise (perhaps even more so) as FE13 got.

To think Intelligent Systems would prefer to get Roy in this game instead of riding the Awakening success van is absurd.

Its Sakurai deciding the Smash Bros. roster, not Intelligent Systems. It was Sakurai who chose Marth. It was Sakurai who chose Roy. It was Sakurai who chose Ike (at the suggestion of IS).

Secondly, you are under the assumption that we can't get four FE characters.

And yes, it's a question of either or because, again, Fire Emblem getting as many reps as Zelda and Mario is something I wouldn't bet on, especially when every potential character but Robin only promotes the idea of more Lord sword-user characters in a game that, Sakurai mentions, desires variety.

Oh boy. What makes you think we won't get a Mario newcomer? There is a very good chance that we will get Peach confirmed before the end of the year (her confirmation tying in with the release of Super Mario 3D World), and there is a strong demand for Toad, Paper Mario, Bowser Jr, and Waluigi. The fact that we will have all of Mario's veterans confirmed about a year before the game's release, and the very strong demand for a Mario newcomer, means a good chance Mario will jump to five slots.

Secondly as to Zelda, frankly some series are simply not suited to expansion of playable characters. For Zelda, there simply is no one that is widely requested and re-occurring in the franchise left to add. Most Zelda and Smash Bros. fans are simply content to have the same characters we received in Brawl with some changes to them (namely Ganondorf getting his own moveset, and Young/Toon Link being differentiated more from regular Link).

The same goes for Metroid, after Ridley there is no one left to add. Lots of veteran franchises simply have already added in who they need to add in, which may be part of the reason why Sakurai is looking towards new franchises for newcomers as opposed to more minor actors from Nintendo's veteran franchises.

Even if Zelda were to have the same amount of slots as Fire Emblem (assuming we were to get Marth, Roy, Ike, and a FE13 character), it would still have more playable characters total than FE would have (five because of Sheik).

Secondly, you are not looking at the bigger picture in terms of content in Smash Bros. Zelda would almost definitely have more representation in terms of stages, items, and trophies than FE would.

As for requests, I personally am of the belief that were it not for Melee, Roy would not be such a popular character with such high demand.

And Ike would not have been as requested for Smash 4 as he is now had he not been in Brawl (he probably would only be as requested as Hector is now had he failed to make it in Brawl) The fact is that being a playable character Smash Bros. massively boosts the popularity of nearly ALL characters that are in it.

Do you think people would be asking for the likes of Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, or even characters from established series like Lucas had they not already been playable in Smash Bros.?

The anti-Roy fans have a double standard when it comes to "well he is only popular cuz of Smash Bros." and conveniently overlook that the character is well liked among FE fans in Japan (which properly receieved his game) and that nearly EVERY character gets a popularity boost from being in Smash Bros.

The fact that Roy was as popular as he is despite being a clone and that his popularity endures to this day, and that he drew in so many people to the Fire Emblem franchise, shows that Sakurai was CORRECT in selecting him as the second playable character for Melee, seeing as though Roy helped represent the series as whole.

And while Sakurai listens to requests, in terms of Fire Emblem he's also likely to listen to what Intelligent Systems will recommend seeing how that's happened before (particularly when it came to including Roy, a character that HAD NOT been in a game before Melee.)

No where has it been said that Intelligent Systems reccomended including Roy for Melee. That is pretty much yourself saying that. The only character to which we know IS made a suggestion to Sakurai (and only because Sakurai explicitly asked them because he did not know who to put in) was with Ike.

Secondly, you are also ignoring that Sakurai could just simply add in Roy, the two Brawl veterans, and a FE newcomer. If they the merits to be in Smash Bros., Sakurai will simply put them in. At best, time constraints come into play, but with the potential option of DLC, that may not be a concern.

As for my, um, "animus", I speak both as a fan of Smash and of Fire Emblem. I played FE6, and to me Roy was just uninteresting, and the game as a whole didn't have the sheer content or replayability of its sequel or later Fire Emblem games. As a lord, Roy was just uninteresting and his character has been done in much better ways in other installments. As a Lord and character, he's just not interesting enough for Smash and really his main claim to uniqueness is his weapon having fire. Sure, I agree Chrom is about as interesting, which is why I would support the idea of Robin/Tactician instead since even the avatar unit in Awakening had a more significant story arc.

This is pretty your own opinion, and opinions are plenty subjective. The fact is that prior to FE7, most lords in the series did not really have discernible personalities despite being a honorable hero (Sigurd particularly is just as bland, with his son at least having the reluctance to fight good people on the side of the Grandbell Empire).

However, your statement about Roy not offering "as much as other lords" is faulty because it goes against what Sakurai has said and done. Roy at the very least stands out more than Sigurd, Celice, Leaf, and Alm as far as other sword-wielding lords go, and probably more than his own father and Eirika.

The Sword of Seals at least provides an aesthetic contrast to other sword-wielding lords, and potentially could offer moves that other lords could not replicate (particularing the fire abilties of it).

But really, my opinion on Roy aside, it's a matter of Marth having priority, Awakening deserving a rep, and Ike probably getting the spot over Roy. Like doctor mario and Pichu, I see him as a Melee only, and I'd be genuinely surprised if he came back.

Marth is the only guaranteed FE character for Smash 4. FE13 "deserving" a playable character is a subjective opinion.

You simply personally don't want to give FE four slots, one of which would most likely go to Roy. I said before four slots for FE would be the best route to go, and if Sakurai feels that FE13 does need a playable character and does have one that contrasts well with the characters that are already in Smash Bros., he will add one in, regardless of having the other FE trio planned.

As I said, at worst it may come to that Ike or Roy are simply bumped out due to time constraints (like what happened with Brawl), but with the potential option of DLC this time as well as Sakurai having the biggest and most experienced team ever with Smash 4, there is a realistic possibility we end up with the four slot solution for FE in Smash 4 (Marth, Roy, Ike, and a FE13 character).

 

[YoshiandToad]

Out of interest why DO people seem so against four slots for a game series with hundreds of characters and thirteen games under it's belt that is decently well received the world over?

It seems like a lot of people think DK might be worthy of having both Dixie and K. Rool, but Fire Emblem doesn't deserve four reps? Nothing against the DK series, I know it's HUGE, but I feel like Fire Emblem is just as deserving of that coveted third and fourth slot.

Again; opinions, and I feel bad because once again; Fire Emblem discussion in this thread.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd like to say that we play as characters, not reps.

This isn't congress. If Sakurai thinks that four characters from the same series deserve it, then he will put them in. He won't care about "FE not deserving four slots" or anything like that.

 

[Glaciacott]

I'll try to keep it concise.
- I was definitely around then for FE7 and I do not remember it having nearly as much of an impact as Awakening has right now. Not even close, even though personally I consider FE7 to still be the best so far in terms of content. Granted, I'll concede right now it may be the fact that Awakening was among the first of many great 3ds titles this year/last year, following the 3DS selling craze of the mario games and preceeding the hype of Animal Crossing. So perhaps the timing was much better for this title.

- There is no way Roy wasn't in part influenced by Intelligent Systems particularly given the fact, again, that his game hadn't even come out. For his inclusion to even make sense it's logical that Sakurai was provided more information on the character. I don't see a scenario in which Sakurai decided to include a character that didn't exist yet all by himself. Which leads me to the next point ...

- While Sakurai is the final word on the roster, his decisions are not egoistic in nature. He decides on the roster based on data he receives and how that aligns with the character's potential (balance, gameplay) in the game. However much he may like certain characters over others, he's the type of developer who will engage in conversations with other studios to determine the optimal representation for each franchise that's in the game. This is why I mention Intelligent Systems often, since their input on the franchise and where it is now will affect Sakurai's final decision one way or the other.

- It is valid that all characters in Smash rise in popularity, but to say that we can't gauge Roy because of that is a fallacy. Lucas, for example, would have still been popular even if not in Smash due to Japan's love of Mother 3 as well as the cult following behind that franchise. While Smash boosts popularity, keep in mind we're talking about an all-star cast. When I argue that it bothers me that Roy is mainly popular due to being in Melee it's an argument based on the fact that I really really doubt that were it not for that inclusion, he'd be considered a poster child for the series. Even Ike, who you say is less popular, got two games. We had the privilege of seeing desire for Ike, whereas with Roy he was just given to us without anyone really requesting or wanting him. Of course, sadly we can't follow through because the reality is Roy WAS in Melee and now we can't imagine an opposite world where that wasn't the case.

- And on that note, I won't argue the opinion stuff because, well, it's opinion. You find Roy as valuable, I personally found him and his game completely lacking in many ways. But your opinion is yours and I respect that.

- Now, your main claim is that my error is thinking FE doesn't deserve four reps. Personally, I don't know why you think they do.
First of all, increasing the Mario reps has no effect whatsoever. It's not a petty situation of "Hey, Fire Emblem got one more rep, Mario and Zelda must get one too!"
The decision is more of a matter of what's necessary to represent this series correctly, in a way that does justice to it and to the desires of the fans. Now, again, with Fire Emblem it will boil down to who are the iconic figures in the series due to these being such a large number of them. The way I see it, based on what Sakurai has stated, I believe the other consideration is also uniqueness. Now, considering this, it's ambitious to even ask for three Fire Emblem reps. Marth is hands down the one and only poster child for the series. If I were Sakurai and wanted a conservative roster, Fire Emblem would be perfectly represented by Marth and the Tactician, as that way you have the main original lord and the player's character (in the same way Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are default Pokemon characters.) But, Sakurai cares more than me in the sense he is intent on bringing back as many of the veterans as possible, which is why I'm sure Ike would return, even though in my opinion he's just really extra, in the same way Toon Link is to the Zelda reps.
But somehow you think we need four? Just to bring back a fan favorite that's another sword user? I can't justify that decision considering only the scope of Fire Emblem reps. When you consider the larger scope of other series deserving representatives as well (a third, maybe fourth for DK, a second for Kid Icarus, perhaps a fifth for mario, the return of mewtwo, a second for Metroid, one last third party, etc.) it becomes even less possible to justify giving Fire Emblem four reps instead of just, you know, adding new characters. Why should Fire Emblem get four reps and Xenoblade, Golden Sun, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Sin & Punishment, and a heckton of other franchises go unrepresented? It's an unfair use of development time and it in the long run takes away from the diversity of the game.

Last thing: I personally wouldn't count on DLC. Again, Sakurai is a particular developer, and he is the sort to want as much content in the game as possible and for it to be all present in the final package. DLC when it comes to characters doesn't seem to be his style. Though if it happens, I wouldn't be opposed.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

No. Sakurai was given a sneak peak of FE6 while he went to Intelligent Systems for permission to use a second FE character. Sakurai saw Roy and his planned abilities (namely the fire motif to the Sword of Seals), and felt that was a character that would work best to complement Marth.

Keep in mind Sakurai is a huge fan of the FE series (even Iwata, the president of Nintendo, has remarked on Sakurai's love for the series). Sakurai is even thanked in the credits to FE6.

Sakurai even did the Iwata Asks for FE11, and has a copy of FE3 downloaded onto his Wii.

Hmm, yeah. I saw his name in the credits while watching the ending of a fan-translated version on Youtube, which surprised me. Thanks for reminding me. So his name is in the original untranslated version, right?

Oh, and should I call you Chrono, or Snakey?

You simply personally don't want to give FE four slots, one of which would most likely go to Roy. I said before four slots for FE would be the best route to go, and if Sakurai feels that FE13 does need a playable character and does have one that contrasts well with the characters that are already in Smash Bros., he will add one in, regardless of having the other FE trio planned.

As I said, at worst it may come to that Ike or Roy are simply bumped out due to time constraints (like what happened with Brawl), but with the potential option of DLC this time as well as Sakurai having the biggest and most experienced team ever with Smash 4, there is a realistic possibility we end up with the four slot solution for FE in Smash 4 (Marth, Roy, Ike, and a FE13 character).

I'm hoping for four FE slots, due to how varied the cast is and how many games it has, but I'm not holding my breath.
Frankly, I don't even know if there will be three...

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[ChronoBound]

- I was definitely around then for FE7 and I do not remember it having nearly as much of an impact as Awakening has right now. Not even close, even though personally I consider FE7 to still be the best so far in terms of content. Granted, I'll concede right now it may be the fact that Awakening was among the first of many great 3ds titles this year/last year, following the 3DS selling craze of the mario games and preceeding the hype of Animal Crossing. So perhaps the timing was much better for this title.

I guess your memory is a bit foggy then because FE7 being released internationally was a much bigger deal than the release of FE13.

- There is no way Roy wasn't in part influenced by Intelligent Systems particularly given the fact, again, that his game hadn't even come out. For his inclusion to even make sense it's logical that Sakurai was provided more information on the character. I don't see a scenario in which Sakurai decided to include a character that didn't exist yet all by himself. Which leads me to the next point ...

The problem is that Sakurai's own statements disagree with you. Sakurai was pretty much given a preview of FE6, he liked what he saw with the main protagonist (Roy) and decided that he provided a better contrast than other options for a Marth clone. As I said before, Sakurai is a huge fan of Fire Emblem (to the point where even Iwata has commented on it), so you should not be surprised Sakurai would want to do this on his own intiative. Sakurai had even said during the Iwata Asks for Shadow Dragon (of which Sakurai took the place of Iwata) that had he known about Marth's re-design for Shadow Dragon, he would have used it for Brawl. Sakurai personally being excited about new things regarding Fire Emblem, and not having to be prodded by IS to include, is something you need to understand.

- While Sakurai is the final word on the roster, his decisions are not egoistic in nature. He decides on the roster based on data he receives and how that aligns with the character's potential (balance, gameplay) in the game. However much he may like certain characters over others, he's the type of developer who will engage in conversations with other studios to determine the optimal representation for each franchise that's in the game. This is why I mention Intelligent Systems often, since their input on the franchise and where it is now will affect Sakurai's final decision one way or the other.

Sakurai only decides the roster on the "data" (what the heck is this even) he receives?

Secondly, the ONLY series Sakurai asks for input or has his hands tied in regards to what content to include is Pokemon (this is the only series Sakurai has ever complained about in terms of determining content for Smash Bros.)

By comparison, Sakurai has never mentioned Intelligent Systems dictating what characters or content to include in Smash Bros. By the contrary, Sakurai takes more initiative in wanting to include "new stuff" than IS (including Roy in Melee over older FE character, Sakurai lamenting that he would have used Marth's FE11 design had he known about it while developing Brawl). Sakurai and IS are on good terms with one another, and Sakurai personally is a big fan of the series.

If Sakurai is uncertain of what to do with the series (like when Sakurai personally wanted to add a newcomer for Fire Emblem for Brawl, but was unsure who would be the best choice), he went to IS for advice and clarity. Note, he asked for advice, he could have easily have just said "nope" after being told about Ike, but instead Sakurai saw potential in Ike to be a character that had not yet been done in Smash Bros. (a slow, heavy, powerful sword-wielder).

Sakurai does not engage in discussion with each series "studios" about what to include as far as playable characters go for Smash Bros. At best, Sakurai will simply ask for a suggestion when he is unsure of his own judgment (as was the case with Ike), or ask for the most current designs for the characters he has planned (as was the case for Brawl with the Zelda series).

Nowhere has Sakurai ever said that he consults each developer team as far to make roster decisions.

- It is valid that all characters in Smash rise in popularity, but to say that we can't gauge Roy because of that is a fallacy. Lucas, for example, would have still been popular even if not in Smash due to Japan's love of Mother 3 as well as the cult following behind that franchise.

Nope. Lucas would be nowhere near as popular as he is now had he not been in Smash Bros. And very few people have played Mother 3 in the West. Even in Japan, Mother 3 is far less popular than Mother 2 (EarthBound is).

There was actually a pretty divided opinion on Mother 3 in Japan. As a matter of fact, FE6 is more highly regarded than Mother 3 is in Japan (I even have links to prove this).

While Smash boosts popularity, keep in mind we're talking about an all-star cast. When I argue that it bothers me that Roy is mainly popular due to being in Melee it's an argument based on the fact that I really really doubt that were it not for that inclusion, he'd be considered a poster child for the series.

And Ike would likely have been forgotten had he not been in Brawl (at best he would be seen as a second Sigurd, a character whom was notable for his overwhelming strength, but otherwise fall down the memory hole).

In Japan, Roy is popular among both FE and Smash Bros. fans, and has very high popularity among Smash Bros. fans in the West.

Its very unfair to say "waah waah Its not fair Roy is so popular cuz it comes from Smash". The sad truth is that any FE character will fall down the memory hole in time if they don't appear in Smash Bros. Chrom/Lucina will likely meet that fate after the next few FE releases.

The fact is that Roy is popular and well-liked, and is still considered an icon to the series to this very day. NOA even referred to Roy (alongside Marth and Ike in the same sentence) to be a "legendary character" in the Nintendo Direct promoting DLC for FE13/

Even Ike, who you say is less popular, got two games. We had the privilege of seeing desire for Ike, whereas with Roy he was just given to us without anyone really requesting or wanting him. Of course, sadly we can't follow through because the reality is Roy WAS in Melee and now we can't imagine an opposite world where that wasn't the case.

The reason why Ike got two games is because FE9 still had many unresolved plot points, and even the end of the game makes a hint that Ike's actions would potentially lead to unrest further down the road on the continent. There is also a tendency to revisit the same universe the subseqeunt game in the series (with the only exceptions being the Gaiden-like FE games).

Also, there have been PLENTY of characters we received in Smash Bros. despite there being almost no requests for them. See the Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Zero Suit Samus, ROB, and most recently the Wii Fit Trainer.

Sometimes requests don't matter for Smash Bros. Sometimes Sakurai simply wants to add a character to which he feels will add something to the game, and Sakurai intuitively knows that lots of people will love and enjoy (Sakurai actually predicted Roy would become popular back on his Melee Dojo page).

Sakurai sometimes likes to take "unproven" characters and present them in a way to which most Smash Bros. fans will end up liking this. We have seen this most recently with the Wii Fit Trainer, of whom was initially met with overwhelming hostility, but after we had seen and learned more about her, many ended up being endeared with the character.

So to say Roy is less legitimate of an addition to Smash Bros. for not having had gone through a "request period" like many other characters, is ultimately foolish and banal.

- And on that note, I won't argue the opinion stuff because, well, it's opinion. You find Roy as valuable, I personally found him and his game completely lacking in many ways. But your opinion is yours and I respect that.

I am glad that you at least acknowledge that. Personally, I think FE6 is the pinnacle of the series alongside FE5.

- Now, your main claim is that my error is thinking FE doesn't deserve four reps. Personally, I don't know why you think they do.
First of all, increasing the Mario reps has no effect whatsoever. It's not a petty situation of "Hey, Fire Emblem got one more rep, Mario and Zelda must get one too!"

No its not that all. First off, people WANT a Mario newcomer. Toad, Paper Mario, Bowser Jr., and Waluigi all have many requests.

I mentioned Zelda as being different, because the demand for a newcomer is low, and because frankly, that series does already have the characters it needs.

The decision is more of a matter of what's necessary to represent this series correctly, in a way that does justice to it and to the desires of the fans. Now, again, with Fire Emblem it will boil down to who are the iconic figures in the series due to these being such a large number of them.

And like it or note, Roy is an iconic figure within the FE series.

The way I see it, based on what Sakurai has stated, I believe the other consideration is also uniqueness. Now, considering this, it's ambitious to even ask for three Fire Emblem reps. Marth is hands down the one and only poster child for the series. If I were Sakurai and wanted a conservative roster, Fire Emblem would be perfectly represented by Marth and the Tactician, as that way you have the main original lord and the player's character (in the same way Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are default Pokemon characters.) But, Sakurai cares more than me in the sense he is intent on bringing back as many of the veterans as possible, which is why I'm sure Ike would return, even though in my opinion he's just really extra, in the same way Toon Link is to the Zelda reps.
But somehow you think we need four?

You said it yourself that Sakurai wants to bring back as many characters as possible (when Sakurai has talked about bringing characters back, he has talked about it within the context of EVERY character that been in the series up until this point).

Just to bring back a fan favorite that's another sword user? I can't justify that decision considering only the scope of Fire Emblem reps.

The thing is that Roy would still contrast himself with the rest of the roster. Considering that Sakurai thought so back in Melee, and thought so for Brawl, and considering the strong demand that does exist for Roy for Smash 4 as well as Sakurai wanting to go back to characters he was unable to finish for Brawl (we have already immediately seen this with the Villager), its not a stretch to say we won't see Roy return for Smash 4 assuming Sakurai is able to implement every character he has planned.

When you consider the larger scope of other series deserving representatives as well (a third, maybe fourth for DK, a second for Kid Icarus, perhaps a fifth for mario, the return of mewtwo, a second for Metroid, one last third party, etc.) it becomes even less possible to justify giving Fire Emblem four reps instead of just, you know, adding new characters.

You act as though FE getting four slots would somehow keep another character out.

The fact is that it won't.

Why should Fire Emblem get four reps and Xenoblade, Golden Sun, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Sin & Punishment, and a heckton of other franchises go unrepresented? It's an unfair use of development time and it in the long run takes away from the diversity of the game.

Because lots of people want four FE characters in Smash 4, and frankly, Sakurai could easily decide and believe that Xenoblade, Golden Sun, Starfy, Ryhthm Heaven (which does not lend itself well to a playable fighter), and Sin & Punishment are all way too niche to warrant a playable character.

You are using your own emotional bias and saying that Roy is somehow going to cockblock some other character on the roster, when its much more likely to be this in terms of Sakurai's thinking:

"Hmmm, should I bring Roy back or not?"

"Hmm, should I give this series a playable character or not?"

"Ok, got my list ready, hopefully I will be able to add in all the characters I have planned."

Sakurai has gone on the record to say that he was SURPRISED that he was able to add in as many characters for Brawl as he did (he also said he was surprised that he got as far as he did with Melee). With each Smash Bros. sequel, Sakurai has been overly cautious about being able to expand the roster, and with each one he expands it much more than he originally thought he could.

With the biggest team yet for Smash Bros., Sakurai very much could again this time.

However, to all of you anti-Roy weirdos out there you need to get this straight:

ROY IS NOT KEEPING YOUR CHARACTER OF CHOICE OUT OF SMASH BROS. IF YOUR FAVORITE CHARACTER DOES NOT MAKE IT IN, ITS NOT BECAUSE ROY KEPT THEM OUT BUT RATHER THAT SAKURAI THOUGHT THEY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH MERIT TO BE PLACED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

[Glaciacott]

There are some points I completely agree with you on, and it's mostly what I believe my fault in expressing my arguments poorly. Of course characters get in regardless of requests or not, and nor was I stating all developers tell Sakurai what to do about each series (data isn't just that but also what Sakurai himself gathers from the fans of each series, what requests they make, and what is in the games themselves. Not implying IS or other people force decisions on him, merely stating that his decisions are informed ones, and like you said, he's likely to visit and ask for advice when needed.)

Also, again, we don't know what the alternate reality would have been if Roy hadn't been in Smash. But considering he was introduced to the rest of the world along with Marth, it's natural promotional material for DLC would hone on him and give him legendary status.

Wouldn't mind seeing the data regarding FE6's popularity, assuming there's a thread for that?

As for that last bit: Every character takes away development time. Every character leads to balancing issues. If we go by what Sakurai says, keep in mind his ideal roster size is of 20 characters and the only reason we keep getting more is because as a developer he always likes giving the players more.

BUT, after Melee and Brawl, he is well aware of how time-consuming the process is. He himself has warned people to expect cuts even though he wants to keep as much of the roster as possible. He has also said he wants diversity, he wants characters that genuinely give us things no other character would. Three characters that rely on swords for everything, whether they're fast or have fire effects, is not diverse.

So, and I'll address you and not all Pro-Roys since assuming you're all the same is stupid:

EVERY CHARACTER TAKES TIME, RESOURCES AND DEDICATION. NOT ALL CHARACTERS YOU WANT WILL MAKE IT IN HOWEVER SOUND YOUR LOGIC OR ARGUMENTS MAY BE BECAUSE THERE IS A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH TIME AND RESOURCES THEY HAVE.

Now, your opinion is Roy is worth that time, mine is that he isn't. And at this point I know you won't change your mind for your reasons (or, um, emotional bias), so I'm off to better things.

All things considered, I appreciate the discussion, even if by the end you completely destroyed any respect I might have had for you by accusing of emotional bias and ending it by treating people who disagree with you as weirdos. Sad that even the reasonable people in these forums are so afraid of disagreement that they just resort to petty flames.

 

[ChronoBound]

There are some points I completely agree with you on, and it's mostly what I believe my fault in expressing my arguments poorly. Of course characters get in regardless of requests or not, and nor was I stating all developers tell Sakurai what to do about each series (data isn't just that but also what Sakurai himself gathers from the fans of each series, what requests they make, and what is in the games themselves. Not implying IS or other people force decisions on him, merely stating that his decisions are informed ones, and like you said, he's likely to visit and ask for advice when needed.)

You pretty much said that Sakurai will only make decisions based on discussion he has with each developer when there is absolutely no evidence that he does that.

Also, again, we don't know what the alternate reality would have been if Roy hadn't been in Smash. But considering he was introduced to the rest of the world along with Marth, it's natural promotional material for DLC would hone on him and give him legendary status.

It shows that Roy is still an iconic and popular character for the series even in the West. In Japan, its even more pronounced.

Wouldn't mind seeing the data regarding FE6's popularity, assuming there's a thread for that?

mk2 (the largest Japanese game fan review website):

FE10: Radiant Dawn (overall points of 75, Grade of A)
http://wiimk2.net/title.php?title=227

FE5: Thracia 776 (overall points of 82, no letter grade due to receiving very few reviews):
http://vc.wiimk2.net/title.php?title=540

FE4: Seisen no Keifu (overall points of 75, letter grade of C, curving for letter grades is harsher for VC titles):
http://vc.wiimk2.net/title.php?title=279

FE3: Monsho no Nazo (overall points of 71, letter grade of C, curving for letter grades is harsher for VC titles):
http://vc.wiimk2.net/title.php?title=276

FE9: Path of Radiance (overall points of 73, letter grade of A):
http://gcmk2.net/rpg/fireemblemsouen.html

FE6: Fuuin no Tsurigi (overall points of 78, letter grade of A):
http://gba-mk2.com/srpg/fire.html

FE7: Rekka no Ken (overall points of 78, letter grade of A):
http://gba-mk2.com/srpg/fire2/index.html

FE8: Sacred Stones (overall points of 65, letter grade of C):
http://gba-mk2.com/srpg/fire3.html

FE12: Shin Monsho no Nazo (overall points of 75, letter grade of A):
http://ndsmk2.net/title.php?title=1988

FE11: Shadow Dragon (overall points of 60, letter grade of C):
http://ndsmk2.net/title.php?title=1017

FE13: Awakening: (overall points of 69, letter grade of B):
http://ndsmk2.net/3ds/title.php?title=233

I also got a compilation of all the Amazon links to for Amazon it goes like:

Five-star average:
FE4

4.5 star average:
FE6
FE7
FE3

Four star average:
Rest of the series

3.5 star average:
FE11
FE8

As for Mother 3:
http://gba-mk2.com/rpg/mother3.html

Score of 66 points, and overall grade of C. You can look at articles on EarthBound/Mother fansites for discussion about how Mother 3 divided some of the fans of the series in Japan.

As for that last bit: Every character takes away development time. Every character leads to balancing issues. If we go by what Sakurai says, keep in mind his ideal roster size is of 20 characters and the only reason we keep getting more is because as a developer he always likes giving the players more.

Yes I know that. However, Sakurai typically chooses which characters are the most deserving of a spot. The

BUT, after Melee and Brawl, he is well aware of how time-consuming the process is. He himself has warned people to expect cuts even though he wants to keep as much of the roster as possible.

Sakurai has said he has not had to cut any of his planned characters so far. Also, keep in mind that when Sakurai said that "there will be cuts" during pre-Brawl the only two characters that he never had any intention of bringing back were Pichu and Young Link (the latter of which simply got replaced with a character whom was more of an updated design for him).

He has also said he wants diversity, he wants characters that genuinely give us things no other character would. Three characters that rely on swords for everything, whether they're fast or have fire effects, is not diverse.

The problem is that you don't know what Sakurai has planned for Roy. For all we know, he could have Roy planned to come back as being completely different from his Melee incarnation. But even then, Sakurai could very well judge veterans by different parameters than characters who have yet to appear in Smash Bros. As it turns out, Sakurai thought Roy was different enough from Marth and Ike to bring him back for Brawl, but was unable to do so due to time constraints.

So, and I'll address you and not all Pro-Roys since assuming you're all the same is stupid:

EVERY CHARACTER TAKES TIME, RESOURCES AND DEDICATION. NOT ALL CHARACTERS YOU WANT WILL MAKE IT IN HOWEVER SOUND YOUR LOGIC OR ARGUMENTS MAY BE BECAUSE THERE IS A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH TIME AND RESOURCES THEY HAVE.

Yes we understand that. Keep in mind Sakurai has already decided the roster, any character that is not on his planned list won't make it in. Any characters that fail to make it in that are on his planned list will be due time constraints or possibly hardware constrains in the case of the Ice Climbers.

However, as it stands, Roy has enough merits to him to warrant a return to Smash Bros., and is probably the most well known and popular character outside of Marth/Ike. However, whether Sakurai brings him back (and even Ike) remains to be seen in the future.

There is a multitude of scenarios that can play out for FE. At the very least, we are getting Marth though.

Now, your opinion is Roy is worth that time, mine is that he isn't. And at this point I know you won't change your mind for your reasons (or, um, emotional bias), so I'm off to better things.

Good.

All things considered, I appreciate the discussion, even if by the end you completely destroyed any respect I might have had for you by accusing of emotional bias and ending it by treating people who disagree with you as weirdos. Sad that even the reasonable people in these forums are so afraid of disagreement that they just resort to petty flames.

The problem is that yourself and many other anti-Roy people use arguments and statements that are most often not true (just off the top of my head you said IS pushed Roy on Sakurai and that Sakurai has to consolt with each development team for each series in Smash Bros.). I will at least give you that you backed down on some of those faulty claims, most anti-Roy people will just say hurl insults at me even when providing links.

 

[Cobalsh]

Kind of tired of people doubting characters just because they don't want them and they aren't on top of the polls. Clearly characters get in regardless of polls and Starfy is already likely and deserving.

Yeah, WFT got in, and no one had her on their polls.

 

[ChronoBound]

Yeah, WFT got in, and no one had her on their polls.

I would not say Starfy is likely (he is definitely underrated though as far as his chances go), but people need to understand that not every character that gets in will be one that is popularly requested or even requested at all. Wii Fit Trainer (and the Villager to a lesser extent) already shows this. If its a character that Sakurai thinks people would like to play as and will be received well, Sakurai will place him/her in.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think it will have some semi-clones, you're right on that, but Dixie will certainly NOT share any specials with Diddy. (except maybe the D-special)

And I hope any Link clones will be Luigi-fied. And Ganondorf should just get a completely new moveset. (maybe a few attacks from Brawl can be kept, as long as they aren't similar to any Capt. Falcon moves)

That's a bold claim. You don't know how Sakurai plans to make Dixie's move set and based on past Smash games she will surely be a semi-clone like Luigi. Sharing the downward and forward special of Diddy Kong while using her helicopter hair as an upward special, and possibly a different standard special if not shooting her bubbles or using Tiny's Feather Bow.

You could always go for both if you think it's justifiable. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities.

I personally don't see 4 DK reps, but that's just me

 

[CalumG]

I like it



I think it's too small and that you have characters that are less priority then the ones you don't have. I don't think 4 DK reps is necessary an that you should pick one, I'd insist having 5 Pokemon and maybe Paper Mario, having a Rythm Heaven Fever rep isn't a terrible choice, but it seems more like the kind of game that would be represented without a playable character, maybe make Karate Joe and Assist Trophy. I'd replace Shulk with Issac, and also make Chrom his own character. Also it's unfair to remove ONE character and not others, that would cause fan rage. Also maybe add a Mii.

Really? I think between 44 and 46 seems pretty spot on in terms of characters (transformations aside)... anything approaching 50 seems pretty unreasonable when you factor in balance and development time, and anything above 50 is just... almost definitely not going to happen.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think it will be funny if Sakurai manages to get 49/50 slots in Smash 4, and blows away most people's expectations with the roster. I think Sakurai's more low key and more humble statements about Smash 4 are a lesson Sakurai learned from Brawl where the bubble kept being blown bigger and bigger, and frankly people's expectations reached unrealistic proportions (people were expecting Brawl's roster to be close to 50 characters total).

 

[Delicious Tears]

In the Smash community, Fire Emblem is Drama Emblem!

 

[mimgrim]

Nope. FE7 received just as much sales and acclaim as FE13 did internationally. I am not sure if you were around then, but FE7 got just as much attention and praise (perhaps even more so) as FE13 got.

If you wouldn't mind I would like a source for this. Because as far as I know FE7 has solde around 676,000 units world wide and FE13 has sold over a million units (including downloadable) world wide and hasn't been out nearly as long. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Emblem_Awakening#Reception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Emblem_(video_game)#Reception

So yea I would like your proof on where FE7 has solde over 1 million, so as to have just as much sales as FE13.

And also while it might be true FE6 saved FE in Japan it is doubly true the FE13 saved FE worldwide As FE13 was going to be the last FE game created but the sales it got (over 1mil) got Nintendo to keep the series going.

I just saying.

 

[CalumG]

I think it will be funny if Sakurai manages to get 49/50 slots in Smash 4, and blows away most people's expectations with the roster. I think Sakurai's more low key and more humble statements about Smash 4 are a lesson Sakurai learned from Brawl where the bubble kept being blown bigger and bigger, and frankly people's expectations reached unrealistic proportions (people were expecting Brawl's roster to be close to 50 characters total).

I don't think that would blow many people away, to be honest. Although people try acting realistic, the amount of people expecting a 50 character roster is actually astounding. I think the more likely option is that we get somewhere around 44-45 characters, leaving half of Smashboards saying 'I told you so' and berating those with high expectations, and the other half stating moaning that we either didn't get enough newcomers, or veterans had to be removed. Either way, I predict some bad mojo. xD

 

[ChronoBound]

If you wouldn't mind I would like a source for this. Because as far as I know FE7 has solde around 676,000 units world wide .

Where did you get that number for FE7? I know the game sold 265K in Japan, and around 400-450K in the US. It certainly sold at least 200K in Europe.

Thirdly, where are your sales numbers for FE13 selling over a million. Please don't tell me you actually used vgchartz as a source.

 

[TheBakonBitz]

Slightly related since Nintendo Wars is a sister series to Fire Emblem.

It's come to my attention that Andy does not have a support thread.

Should I make one for him? Would we have more than one supporter, I mean.

I'm curious what his attacks be, would he be Olimar - ish.

 

[mimgrim]

Where did you get that number for FE7? I know the game sold 265K in Japan, and around 400-450K in the US. It certainly sold at least 200K in Europe.

Thirdly, where are your sales numbers for FE13 selling over a million. Please don't tell me you actually used vgchartz as a source.

In Japan FE7 sold around 345,000 actually and around 331,000 in North America. I don't have the statistics on how much it sold in Europe.

You ignored the 2 links I put in my post. ._.