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Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

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You know what I realized?
People try to "debunk" the Melee image because of "dimensions on the axis", "positions in comparison to the camera" or something or whatever, yet didn't Brawl pretty much have a similar image from the SSE?


And yet with Samus closer to the camera than the Melee image, Ridley farther from the camera, and the overall distance between Samus and Ridley, it's pretty frigging clear he's much smaller in the Melee opening than in Brawl.

Even moreso when you consider frames of both cutscenes where Samus and Ridley are pretty close.

Ridley is practically right behind Samus here. Sure he's big, but he's not that big. Easily smaller than Melee G-Bowser.



And here is a nice shot of Ridley holding Samus in Brawl. Damn, monstah took som' steroids!
In other words, he is clearly smaller in the Melee opening no matter how you try to slice it.
(And funnily enough, he's smaller in-battle in Brawl than in the cutscene before it.)


Melee opening being debunked due to positioning in comparison to the camera? WRONG.
Just another straw-pull by the Ridley detractors.
 

Xenigma

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Surely patches as in glitch/balance patches, though with Namco involved, who knows? They added 10 characters as free DLC via patches to Tekken Tag Tournament 2 last year despite already having 49 characters on the disc. Perhaps Sakurai could be convinced to follow suit with minimal effort characters like Dr. Mario or Pichu after SSB4's release.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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I'm pretty sure he means glitch and balance patches, considering the Wii U can now update with the console off, as well as that he said there are no current plans for DLC in Smash Bros.

But DLC would also be pretty nice if it ever comes to that.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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Hopefully we won't even need tier lists in the first place if the patch system is frequent and helpful enough.
 

papagenos

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A balanced Smash Bros? Where we can choose any character and have a chance at victory? it is but a legend... These patches you speak of be but Myth! abandon your absurd quest for a decent fighting game!

I'm just kidding, but seriously fixing characters and annoying glitches would be huge.
 

N3ON

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We will always need a tier list. How else are we supposed to know which characters to resent and complain about? :troll:
 

Jake the Dovahkiin

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Thanx, guys. This may be a shot in the dark, but how about Soma Cruz from Castlevania: Aria/Dawn of Sorrow? Those games were on the GBA/DS after all.

Also, WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THESE BEFORE?

Isaac (Golden Sun)*
Dixie Kong*
Little Mac*

and last but not least DARK SAMUS. D Samus should have her own moveset, though. She shouldn't be a carbon copy of regular Samus.

*A friend suggested these
 

Xenigma

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While they usually help eliminate extreme outliers, tiers will exist no matter how many balance patches occur. Heck, just look at Street Fighter IV with its two major updates and now annual balance overhauls. While there's nothing as insane as vanilla Sagat or AE Yun these days, the most recent version is still far from perfect. Patches may help eliminate extreme issues like Brawl MK, but no doubt tier lists will still be a valuable commodity.
 

MagnesD3

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While they usually help eliminate extreme outliers, tiers will exist no matter how many balance patches occur. Heck, just look at Street Fighter IV with its two major updates and now annual balance overhauls. While there's nothing as insane as vanilla Sagat or AE Yun these days, the most recent version is still far from perfect. Patches may help eliminate extreme issues like Brawl MK, but no doubt tier lists will still be a valuable commodity.
It really depends on how good they are at balancing, capcom doesnt have the best track record for balance.
 

Shorts

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I seconded your questions. I really want to know XD
He's open to DLC, and he's talking glitch/balance patches. He digs em, a lot.

Also

God Tier
· Mewtwo 980

Top Tier
· King K. Rool 759
· Ridley 755

High Tier
· Roy 672
· Little Mac (Punch Out) 635

Mid Tier
· Bowser Junior 566
· Krystal 565
· Palutena 555
· Isaac (Golden Sun) 522


Low Tier
· Chrom 495
· Paper Mario 486
· Waluigi 471
· Dixie Kong 462
· Shulk (Xenoblade) 439
· Banjo & Kazooie 421
· Majora (Skull Kid) 411

Bottom Tier
· Ghirahim 386
· Pac-Man 383
· Samurai Goroh 368
· 2nd Sonic Character (Tails, Shadow, Knuckles) 360
· Black Shadow 354
· Bomberman 355
· Lyn 343
· 6th Gen Pokemon 331
· Toad 315
· Mii (Wii Series) 307
· Lucina 306
· Rayman 302

Honerable Mentions
· Super Mario RPG (Geno, Mallow) 293
· Dark Samus 291
· Kingdom Hearts (Sora) 290



Everyone Else
· Zoroark 286
· Castlevania (Simon Belmont, Alucard, Dracula) 283
· Bayonetta 278
· Rosalina 265
· Ace Attorney (Phoenix Write) 262
· Pokemon Trainer (Johto) 260
· Takamaru (The Mysterious Musasame Castle) 259
· King Boo 257
· Kamek 252
· Doctor Mario 249
· Eevee (and Eeveelutions) 246
· Vaati 243
· Medusa 243
· Pokemon Trainer (Hoenn) 239
· Balloon Fighter 238
· Claus (Masked Man) 236
· Saki (Sin & Punishment) 235
· Toon Zelda 234
· Viewtiful Joe 233
· Midna 232
· Wolf Link 226
· Tom Nook (Animal Crossing 225
· Final Fantasy (Chocobo, Black Mage, Moogle, Cloud, Lightning) 225
· Tetra 222
· Crono Trigger (Crono) 219
· Tales Series (Cless/Cress, Lloyd) 219
· Shy Guy 218
· Professor Layton 214
· Young Link 208
· Ashley 206
· Baby Mario & Luigi 205
· Dillon (Rolling Western) 205
· Dark Pit 202
· Pokemon Trainer (Kalos) 199
· Anna 199
· Ray MK (Custom Robo) 195
· Magnus 194
· Scribblenauts (Maxwell) 192
· Captain Syrup 186
· No More Hereos (Travis Touchdown) 183
· Hades 181
· Daisy 179
· Deoxys 178
· Mona 177
· Bandana Dee 173
· Pokemon Trainer N 172
· Pokemon Trainer (Sinnoh) 172
· Slippy 171
· Black Knight 168
· Knuckle Joe 166
· Pokemon Trainer Villain (Rocket Plasma Galactic Aqua Magma) 166
· Porky 166
· Conker's Bad Fur Day (Conker) 163
· Meowth 162
· Andy (Advanced Wars) 162
· Street Fighter (Ryu, Chun Li, M. Bison) 162
· Fawful 159
· Funky Kong 159
· Impa 155
· Prince Fluff 154
· Micaiah 153
· Toon Ganondorf 152
· Classic Link 150
· Starfy (The Legendary Starfy) 150
· Kat & Ana 147
· Tharja 146
· K.K Slider (Animal Crossing) 144
· Pichu 143
· 2nd Metal Gear Character (Raiden, Gray Fox) 139
· Genesect 140
· Plusle & Minun 137
· Pokemon Champion Cynthia 135
· Lip (Panel De Pon) 135
· Baby Bowser 134
· Viridi 133
· Toon Sheik 130
· Robin (FE:A Avatar) 130
· Tingle 129
· Eirika 128
· Soul Calibur (Nightmare, Ivy Valentine) 126
· Kumatora 125
· Alex (Golden Sun) 124
· Yarn Kirby 122
· Mew 122
· Sylux 120
· Poo 120
· Hector 119
· Tiki 118
· Darkrai 117
· Fiora (Xenoblade) 117
· Peppy 116
· Ninja Gaiden (Ryu Hayabusa) 111
· Jimmy T. 109
· Adeliene 108
· Duck Hunt Dog 108
· Battletoads (Zitz) 108
· Jeff 105
· Ephraim 103
· Ninten 102
· Louie (Pikmin) 102
· Jill (Drill Dozer) 101
· Elite Beat Agents 98
· Felix (Golden Sun) 97
· Matthew (Golden Sun) 97
· Yarn Yoshi 95
· Blood Falcon 95
· Zael (The Last Story) 95
· Paula 94
· 94 (0.9%)
· KOS-MOS (Xenosaga) 93
· Tekken (Heihachi, Jin, Kazuya) 93
· Groose 92
· Resident Evil [Jill Valentine Chris Redfeild Leon Kennedy) 90
· Victini 88
· Mach Rider 88
· Mike Jones (Star Tropics) 88
· Dragon Quest (Slime) 88
· Giygas 87
· Eggplant Wizard 85
· Flint 84
· Sukapon (Joy Mech Fight) 84
· Gardevoir 83
· Lanky Kong 82
· Jody Summer 81
· Aeron (Pandora's Tower) 81
· Leon 80
· Captain N 79
· Cranky Kong 78
· Meloetta 78
· Phantom Zelda 77
· Captain Trio / Alph, Charlie, Brittany (Pikmin III) 77
· Isa Jo (Sin & Punishment) 76
· Caeda 70
· Tempo (Harmo Knight) 69
· Excited Biker 68
· Marx 67
· Dunban (Xenoblade) 67
· Eliwood 66
· Anthony Higgs 65
· 65 (1.6%)
· Ana 62
· Bubbles (Clu Clu Land) 62
· NO THIRD PARTY CHARACTERS 61
· Panther 60
· Muddy Mole (Mole Mania) 60
· Donkey Kong Junior 59
· Alex Roivas (Eternal Darkness) 59
· Mallo (Pushmo) 59
· Walhart 58
· Reyn (Xenoblade) 57
· Elincia 56
· Calista (The Last Story) 56
· Leaf 52
· Prince Sable (For the Frog the Bell Tolls) 51
· Magolor 45
· Ashley Robbins (Trace Memory / Another Road) 45
· Sigurd 43
· Sakura Samurai (Sakura Samurai: Art of the Sword) 43
· Deathborn 42
· Pico 42
· Soren 42
· Gooey 41
· Alice (Balloon Kid) 40
· Orublon 38
· Shake King 36
· Tiki Tong 35
· Celice 33
· Stanly the Bugman 31
· Kyle Hyde (Hotel Dusk) 30
· Kiddie Kong 26
· Urban Champion 26
· Heracles (Glory of Heracles) 25
· Hunter (Fossil Fighter) 25
· Labrador / Grey Tabby (Nintendogs + Cats) 25
· Daroach 24
· Ayumi Tachibana (Famicom Detective Club pt. II) 24
· Dr. Stewart 23
· John Raimi (Geist) 22
· Prince Richard (For the Frog the Bell Tolls) 22
· Tamagon (Devil World) 22
· Narbarl 21
· Hero (Magc Starsign / Vacation) 21
· 21 (0.2%)
· Dr. Write (Sim City) 20
· Ryuta (Ouendan) 18
· Welt (Soma Bringer) 16
· Lark (PilotWings) 15
· Ryota Hayami (Wave Race) 15



As you can see, the more votes we get the smaller the tiers become. It's going to be interesting to see where everyone stands come 2000 votes.

Unconfirmed Veterans
· Zelda 1207
· Captain Falcon 1201
· Yoshi 1172
· Luigi 1168
· Ness 1162
· Pit 1145
· Sonic 1023
· Wario 1116
· Peach 1113
· Ganondorf 1107
· Marth 1086
· Meta Knight 1075
· King Dedede 1064
· Diddy Kong 1062
· Falco 1058
· Shiek 1030
· Ice Climbers 999
· Game & Watch 988
· Zero Suit Samus 979
· Olimar 971
· Lucas 936
· Jigglypuff 897
· Wolf 872
· Ike 864
· Snake 845
· ROB 776
· Pokemon Trainer (Kanto) 775
· Toon Link 597
· Lucario 507

*Characters highlighted in gold scored below Mewtwo
 
D

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Nice results there Shortie. I'll analyze it later and give my thoughts.
 

Starbound

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I'd expect that if any characters are included in DLC, it'll be the ones that were cut for time constraints due to how easy it'll be to develop them.
 

Xenigma

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It really depends on how good they are at balancing, capcom doesnt have the best track record for balance.
Even so, achieving perfect balance is a pipe dream. Unless every character is exactly the same, differences like hit boxes and attack properties and damage dealt and whatever else will inevitably cause character X to be better or worse than character Y, which is what causes tiers in the first place. The best they can do is minimize the disparity between those tiers. I love balance patches and hope SSB4 will have them, but don't expect any miracles.
 

Shorts

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I'll go ahead and throw in my own analysis.


God Tier
· Mewtwo 980
His position shouldn't really be surprising. This poll is by far the best one I've put out, and the fact that Mewtwo is topping it as he should only makes me feel better about it's security. He's really the character that got away from Brawl. Not Ridley. Mewtwo. Lik I said, this shouldn't be a suprising thing to see Mewtwo 200 votes higher than the next person below him.

Forecast: No one's touching Mewtwo



Top Tier
· King K. Rool 759
· Ridley 755
King K Rool ranking over Ridley means little really, it's by four votes. But these two seem like rather obvious choices to be coming in at Top tier. They're the villains everyone wants to see join Smash. Even me, and I hate good character choices.

Forecast: K Rool stays barely above Ridley, Roy edges closer to their tier.



High Tier
· Roy 672
· Little Mac (Punch Out) 635

These two don't really suprise me, but, they do at the same time. They've both been rocking High Tier without Palutena for a good 200 votes now. I think it will stay this way.

Forecast: Eventually Roy joins the villain Bros, Little Mac joins the cool kids in Mid Tier. Both occasionally ending up in "High Tier" alone or together.


Mid Tier
· Bowser Junior 566
· Krystal 565
· Palutena 555
· Isaac (Golden Sun) 522
This tier used to have a few more characters in it when the results first started pouring in. After this amount of votes though, a lot of the competition was weeded out of this tier. Mid tier is essentially going to be the Krystal-Junior-Palutena trifecta.These three will consistantly stick together, with chance of anyone overtaking anyone. (One vote between Krystal and Junior, eleven between Palutena and Junior) Isaac is the little buddy that COULD be a constant in this equasion, but his votes are a bit too low currently to stay consistantly in the mid tier. I predict he'll be mid 90% of the time, and occasionally drop into Low.

Forecast: Isaac will stick around Mid tier, most of the time. Chrom will play footsies with Mid tier occasional. Paper Mario wishes, and Waluigi and Dixie can dream.




Low Tier
· Chrom 495
· Paper Mario 486
· Waluigi 471
· Dixie Kong 462
· Shulk (Xenoblade) 439
· Banjo & Kazooie 421
· Majora (Skull Kid) 411

Pretty much PM, WA, Dixie, Shulk, and Banjo are the consistants in Low tier. Chrom's gonna jump to Mid IMO. Banjo and Majora will drop to Bottom infrequently. I really do believe we'll have two FE characters in the top four tiers. Kreay right? Paper Mario may jump to mid, occasionally, but not in the next 100 votes.

Forecast: In the near future everything will be the same, minus Chrom jumping to mid.


Bottom Tier
· Ghirahim 386
· Pac-Man 383
· Samurai Goroh 368
· 2nd Sonic Character (Tails, Shadow, Knuckles) 360
· Black Shadow 354
· Bomberman 355
· Lyn 343
· 6th Gen Pokemon 331
· Toad 315
· Mii (Wii Series) 307
· Lucina 306
· Rayman 302

Goroh, 2nd Sonic, BS, Bomerman, Lyn, and 6th Gen POKE will be the mainstays of this tier. Ghirahim and Pac-Man will probably jump tiers. Toad Mii, Lucina, and Rayman are honerable mentions at heart, but they'll show up in bottom tier infrequently.


Honerable Mentions
· Super Mario RPG (Geno, Mallow) 293
· Dark Samus 291
· Kingdom Hearts (Sora) 290

Anyone's game. But I can pretty much see all three of these moving up a tier, as well as Zoroark, Castlvania, and Bayonetta.
 

MagnesD3

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Even so, achieving perfect balance is a pipe dream. Unless every character is exactly the same, differences like hit boxes and attack properties and damage dealt and whatever else will inevitably cause character X to be better or worse than character Y, which is what causes tiers in the first place. The best they can do is minimize the disparity between those tiers. I love balance patches and hope SSB4 will have them, but don't expect any miracles.
Yeah of course it impossible to obtain absolute perfect balance but making a game where any character can win a tournament is doable.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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Despite the imperfections, however, I think it's more than reasonable to see match-ups being especially well considered this time around. Based on speculation with characters with clear strengths like Mega Man's range or Villager's anti-projectile playstyle, it just looks like match-ups will have a larger factor as to who wins 1-on-1. That being said, high tier folk like Meta Knight may still be powerful, but will have much harder counters to go up against in what appears to be a buffed up roster. A Smash-y Rock/Paper/Scissors, in a way. Not the perfect way to go about things, but it certainly works towards balance.
 

jaytalks

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I think the main reason it's co-developed by Namco is for balance. They have the rock paper scissors system with the soul calibur series with vertical attacks, horizontal, and dodging.
 

Z1GMA

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Needs more:


Also: Getting more stages/music via DLC after some time would be sweet.
More characters sounds too good to be true, though.
 

EddyBearr

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The "too big" argument is flawed Since Ridely has had different size and can get downscaled. The he has no "character or personality" argument is also flawed as SSB can easily give him personality he already has just liek they have done with other characters in their games. Humanoid or not.

The thing is, all these little things (and I admit they are little) add up. There's just one hurdle after another, but you have to find solutions. With most characters, getting the smash personality is sitting right in front of you in the game, but with Ridley they really have to spend time on it.

yeah cause falling asleep is a real personality trait -.-. and no there is nothing within Samus or Links taunts or movements show any form of personality outside of "I'm ready for action" which is the most generic hero personality out there. and yeah we wanna play as the character for multiple reasons. we like the game they hail from, they have a cool moveset, even shallow reasons like "He just looks cool" is justifiable. the personality argument doesnt work because most of the cast has next to none. being bestial is as much a personality as the "Always ready" personality that most of the heroes in the game share. we don't need to relate to him because thats not crucial for this series or hell even the series they came from necessarily. I don't relate to Peach on any type of level whatsoever, but she's my 2nd most used character in the game. she's also a pretty bland character in her own right. and the difference between Ridley and the common enemies u listed is that HE'S NOT A COMMON ENEMY. he's the most reoccurring character in the series after Samus and is frankly responsible for who Samus became.
-In Mario 64, Mario would fall asleep randomly if left to sit for a while, despite having to save Peach. This exemplifies his lazy personality.
-Samus' taunt, like I said, seems to show a sense of personal accomplishment. It's easy to relate to.
-Link's taunt exemplifies nervousness, kinda like "a-ha, I did it.." and is very similar to the way Link would blush any time Ruto would approach him in LoZ:OOT
-Most of the cash has an easy to spot personality. For Melee
--Dr. Mario: Successful someone arrogant doctor man, as you'd expect from an accomplished doctor. His taunt shows expressions of pride.
--Mario: Mario is the exemplification of Nintendo. He doesn't need to be addressed.
--Luigi: Slippery, goofy, less in-control than Mario. his dash attack exemplifies his silliness, and his taunt is kinda like, "aw, shuck!" to exemplify him being permanently beneath his brother.
--Peach: Ms. perfect, must stay clean, is pampered princess. She floats, has toad fight her battles for her, and slaps as opposed to actually punching.
--Bowser: Bowser is The Nintendo Villain. With that said, his Smash Portayal is "the big snarling beast," which is what Ridley could be, but Bowser is obviously a better smash rep than Ridley, so the competition hurts him here.
--Yoshi: "Ow-wow-wow-wow-wow!! WAH!" Just like in the games. I don't need to elaborate.
--Donkey Kong: In Japanese, "Donkey" is used to mean "Dumb," and his "big dumb brutish barbaric ape" personaltiy is clear, both in his games, and in Smash. His taunt exemplifies how much of a goof he is, especially the funny face he makes with his lips.
--Captain Falcon was given this manly show off personality in Smash, and it fit perfectly. It was easy to implement too because of his physique, being a "bigshot racecar driver," and being human, thus easier to relate to. Yes! Show your moves! I'm so arrogant, I'll name all my attacks after myself!
--Ganondorf: An embodiment of evil, who's power gets to his head, and who takes great enjoyment in practically anything. His smirk and laugh, and how his taunt lunges his big bulging muscular body out, fits in with his LoZ OOT personality.
--Falco: Falco is the snarky, somewhat hotheaded, extremely arrogant, "is he really my sidekick" character form Star Fox. His expression exemplifies his not-so-fun personality, with how low and sharp his eyes are, and his taunt of "heh" exemplifies his overconfidence, almost as if he's saying "piece of cake" like he did in Star Fox 64. It's easier to relate to a standing, talking bird than to a real bird.
--Fox: Fox is a lot like Falco, and has his arrogant moments, but is more serious as a default. Fox's expression is very in-tune and focused, but his taught shows his arrogant side, both in Melee and in 64.
--Ness: I've not played too much of Earthbound, but his Smash personality is the really easy to spot and relate to "childlike" personality, okay. It was easy to implement because, again, he is a child himself and simply being a child puts a bunch of characteristics on him.
--Ice Climbers: Together, loyal to each other, and brave, as you'd expect from the two mountain climbers. Their taunt almost screams, "We made it to the top of the mountain!"
--Kirby: Hi!!
--Samus: Explained above
--Zelda: Another princess, but far more elegant, and he taunt exemplifies her elegance. Elegant, calm, collected, but can be serious of need be, as per her up smash.
--Sheik: Mysterious, secretive. That's about it. It came with Zelda, though, so there's not much needed to be argued.
--Young Link: It's another Link, but this time a kid. he's gotta drink up all his milk to become a big strong boy! His facial expression is very brave and stoic, just like Link was, setting off on a journey as a little kid.
--Pichu: The cute little baby pokemon, oh how cute look at how he rolls on his side and plays around! he's so playful and fun! Oh, but he lacks control, and his thunder sounds like he's just barely managing to make the thunder happen.
--Pikachu: A slightly less adorable version of Pichu. He can be very brave, and he's much more in control. His thunder seems like he truly controls the thunder. His taunt is still the playful cute pokemon he always was.
--Jigglypuff: Sings, falls asleep. The sound she makes when she makes up. this is just like her in the Anime.
--Mewtwo: Mmm, hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm! *spreads out arms and thinks to self, "I am the strongest pokemon that's ever lived. Let me just cross my arms to show how cool I am."
--Mr. G&W. Gimmick character is gimmick character, but (and this is all personal) he reminds me of an annoying alarm clock. He's a special kind of character.
--Marth: His important role in the games, him being a prince.. his taught in Japanese is something along the lines of, "Everybody look at me." His flashy dancing blade, his pretty looks.. What a snub prince.
--Roy. A far more noble, brave Fire Emblem character. "For those whom I must protect, I will not lose!""

I'll finish up later. Gotta get off computer.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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I think that poll shows us some good things with the characters, however I don't see why characters like Banjo & Kazooie are in there. They are impossible at this point. As much as I would love to see them, they just aren't going to happen, no matter how many votes they are going to get.

I would just recommend trimming the fat there, and the results MAY be different.
 

EddyBearr

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Picking up where I left off. Counting on a ninja in the last couple hours.

we don't need to relate to him because thats not crucial for this series or hell even the series they came from necessarily. I don't relate to Peach on any type of level whatsoever, but she's my 2nd most used character in the game. she's also a pretty bland character in her own right. and the difference between Ridley and the common enemies u listed is that HE'S NOT A COMMON ENEMY. he's the most reoccurring character in the series after Samus and is frankly responsible for who Samus became.
I'd argue that any game where you choose to play as a certain character, relation is a factor. I can't speak for you, but I play Young Link or Toon Link because I'm kinda patient, really exploitative, and I like guarantees. (EX: Guarantee nair after a bomb.) I don't relate to him that much, but it fits certain things I like. I enjoy luigi as well, and I feel a bit of relation with Luigi. The things I can relate to with Luigi made me "like him" as a character a long time ago, and that carries on in Smash. Sometimes I'll play as Luigi in Smash or in other games like Mario Kart just so I can cry about nobody paying attention to Luigi. Roleplaying as the character I'm playing as in the fun/casual setting while playing the game is extremely fun.

Peach is extremely characteristic, as was elaborated on my other post.

Great, so I'll compare Ridley to Epona from LoZ. That's as "unique" for his role as he gets. Actually, that's not even fair, because Epona is really shy.

And yes, there are many strong arguments for Ridley. I'm just trying to establish that lack of individualistic, relate-able character is an argument against Ridley. Second strongest, but I'm looking at this through the scope of Smash as a party/fun/casual game (the way most folks see it, thus as the more marketable view), not as the hardcore competitive game that all of us on Smashboards look at it as.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Picking up where I left off. Counting on a ninja in the last couple hours.



I'd argue that any game where you choose to play as a certain character, relation is a factor. I can't speak for you, but I play Young Link or Toon Link because I'm kinda patient, really exploitative, and I like guarantees. (EX: Guarantee nair after a bomb.) I don't relate to him that much, but it fits certain things I like. I enjoy luigi as well, and I feel a bit of relation with Luigi. The things I can relate to with Luigi made me "like him" as a character a long time ago, and that carries on in Smash. Sometimes I'll play as Luigi in Smash or in other games like Mario Kart just so I can cry about nobody paying attention to Luigi. Roleplaying as the character I'm playing as in the fun/casual setting while playing the game is extremely fun.

Peach is extremely characteristic, as was elaborated on my other post.

Great, so I'll compare Ridley to Epona from LoZ. That's as "unique" for his role as he gets. Actually, that's not even fair, because Epona is really shy.

And yes, there are many strong arguments for Ridley. I'm just trying to establish that lack of individualistic, relate-able character is an argument against Ridley. Second strongest, but I'm looking at this through the scope of Smash as a party/fun/casual game (the way most folks see it, thus as the more marketable view), not as the hardcore competitive game that all of us on Smashboards look at it as.
I honestly believe you are emphasizing a factor that just does not exist when choosing a character. There are simply four criteria that Sakurai uses when creating his roster. The personality of the character is not one of those criteria. One of them however, is "the character would make people want to play the game". Ridley can accomplish this because of his massive popularity for Smash Bros.

There is no stipulation that a character needs a personality to be in Smash Bros. The "personality" of each character can be seen by the player based off of their knowledge of the series from which a character is from. If we take that into consideration, in Mario's games, he is typically a very happy and eccentric person, always trying to save the day, etc... However, in Brawl at least, he appeared almost jaded, and had an incredibly serious look on his face. There is hardly any look of "happy or eccentric" in his face. This shows that personalities are inconsistent in Smash Bros. to an extent.

Luigi however is different. I agree with you here that he has personality in Smash Bros.

As far as having a connection to a character, I disagree. When I choose Captain Falcon, I merely do it to troll and only Falcon PAWWNNNCH. That's it. I don't do it because of his personality or anything. I just want to PAWWNNNCH.

In your comparison of Ridley to Epona, you are comparing apples to oranges if you ask me. The only similarity is that they reappear often. The better comparison is Ridley and Ganondorf, considering they fill the same role in several games that they appear in. Ridley is Samus's Bowser or Ganondorf.

Sakurai has also mentioned that he is intending to cater to a mixed crowd if I remember correctly. With Brawl being casual, he wanted to aim it more at the hardcore audience. Not that this really matters, i'm just throwing this in here.
 

FlareHabanero

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And yes, there are many strong arguments for Ridley. I'm just trying to establish that lack of individualistic, relate-able character is an argument against Ridley.
Why the hell is that such an huge issue? Why the hell should we worry about characterization of all things in a fighting/party game? Isn't a multiplayer brawling extravaganza between Nintendo characters the point of Super Smash Bros., not listening to some cheesy soap opera? Seriously if you're playing Super Smash Bros. for the enriched dialect and character development, you're doing it so incredibly wrong.
 

EddyBearr

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I honestly believe you are emphasizing a factor that just does not exist when choosing a character. There are simply four criteria that Sakurai uses when creating his roster. The personality of the character is not one of those criteria. One of them however, is "the character would make people want to play the game". Ridley can accomplish this because of his massive popularity for Smash Bros.
Four "main' criteria, perhaps, then hundreds of small and medium sized ones. I'd argue that personality is a factor in the factor of what it brings to the smash atmosphere, which we all know Sakurai cares about.

[There is no stipulation that a character needs a personality to be in Smash Bros. The "personality" of each character can be seen by the player based off of their knowledge of the series from which a character is from. If we take that into consideration, in Mario's games, he is typically a very happy and eccentric person, always trying to save the day, etc... However, in Brawl at least, he appeared almost jaded, and had an incredibly serious look on his face. There is hardly any look of "happy or eccentric" in his face. This shows that personalities are inconsistent in Smash Bros. to an extent.
I don't disagree, but I'd like to note that personality "can" be a factor, and that the less a person has to dig to find a character's personality, the better.

As far as having a connection to a character, I disagree. When I choose Captain Falcon, I merely do it to troll and only Falcon PAWWNNNCH. That's it. I don't do it because of his personality or anything. I just want to PAWWNNNCH.
We can admit that many folks play Falcon for the purpose of showboating, which just "goes" with Captain Falcon. That's a personality thing.

In your comparison of Ridley to Epona, you are comparing apples to oranges if you ask me. The only similarity is that they reappear often. The better comparison is Ridley and Ganondorf, considering they fill the same role in several games that they appear in. Ridley is Samus's Bowser or Ganondorf.
Role wise, yes. I was simply talking about personality, though. At first I compared him to an octorok. He may be extremely relevant to Metroid, but unlike Bowser and Ganondorf, he just doesn't have a definitive personality in the games. I actually can't think of a recurring character with as little personality as Ridley.

Sakurai has also mentioned that he is intending to cater to a mixed crowd if I remember correctly. With Brawl being casual, he wanted to aim it more at the hardcore audience. Not that this really matters, i'm just throwing this in here.
Which both hurts and helps Ridley. Helps because of our desire, hurts because it takes up a lot of development time to implement such a tricky character that might be used instead making the game more competitively viable.

Habanero said:
Why the hell is that such an huge issue? Why the hell should we worry about characterization of all things in a fighting/party game? Isn't a multiplayer brawling extravaganza between Nintendo characters the point of Super Smash Bros., not listening to some cheesy soap opera? Seriously if you're playing Super Smash Bros. for the enriched dialect and character development, you're doing it so incredibly wrong.
Subspace emissary is playing the game wrong? My friend, you must understand that there are lots of folks who play smash for the plot, or for the more casual ways. As an example, when I was younger playing SSB64 with my brother, we used to choose Link and Ness, and Link would grab Ness and pretend that he said to him, "Gimme your lunch money, Kid."

It's just part of the market, and I doubt Ridley's marketability to non-hardcore gamers. Anyone who doesn't dig deep into Metroid probably doesn't view him as all that fun, just a "boss." Not a "character."
 

Xenigma

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Big menacing purple dragon doesn't have marketability? Seriously? I'd think that makes him more interesting based on looks alone than most of the cast.
 

3Bismyname

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Ridley's personality is not an issue. thats a dumb reason to exclude a character. besides he does have a personality, its being a pissed off Dragon. its as much a personality trait as any of those traits listed by Eddybear. not that it matters cause few people care about the characters personalities within smash cause in the end they don't effect anything but the story mode that Ridley would still be able to take full part in with his personality. we don't look for character development in this game. nor do we try to relate to them. we play as our characters for a number of reasons. brand loyalty, fun and good moveset, just looking awesome and once in awhile that said character may have a very strong personality, like say Wario, or a rather weak or uninteresting one like Link (who's character is purposely void of strong emotions). this personality argument is just an excuse.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Some questions I'd like to discuss after that interview I posted yesterday...

1) "NO characters cut yet" Does this mean the entire Brawl roster is back? What of Snake and Sonic?
- personally this is what I believe, because Sakurai already acknowledged that people didn't want certain characters to be cut from Brawl. Therefore he would attempt to not have this happen unless other issues had presented a detour.

2) 3DS version will keep the roster size in check. What will this mean for the roster?
- Based on the fact that SSE is removed, a large portion of the data will be free to use on other things. Assuming the 3DS has more storage space than Brawl did, that's saying something for the roster. If we remove the Nintendo Classic demos, and even a possible removal of the Stage Builder, we're looking at some largely expanded room for data storage. Looking back at the quote saying, "A change in direction is what's needed", I don't think this meant that Sakurai would add less characters, but that the focus of the next Smash Bros. would be more focused on a hardcore experience, rather than taking up most of the space on the disc will bull crap that nobody needed for the most part.

Thoughts?
 

Hotfeet444

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Are we really getting back into dead Ridley arguments again? Ridley has a personality, and just because he doesn't show it in battle against Samus doesn't mean he doesn't have one. His personality is determined and sadistic. He wants to crush the only person who's ever put up a challenge against him, he wants to wipe her off of the face of the planet so that he can be undefeated once again. Not to mention he is a serious sadist, which is also a personality trait. He loves making people suffer just for the fun of it, he doesn't kill just for the lulz, he kills because he ENJOYS it. Ridley's got personality, alot more personality than Other M Samus, that's for sure. :p
 
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