Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Diddy Kong]

Want to explain yourself?

I don't believe I have to. As you, kind sire, are just ruling out perhaps 2 of the only 'true' worthy newcomers of Smash 4 just cause Retro didn't include them in the last DKC game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, there was the mention of an Animal Crossing character using shovels and nets for offensive purposes briefly mentioned by Sakurai himself. So it's not like implementing such a character would be entirely out of the question.

 

[Starphoenix]

Hence why I said "his strong personal conviction."

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yet, I wouldn't like such a character honestly. Personal preferences perhaps, but I think Animal Crossing is much better of with a stage. Perhaps two? And IF they'd use a character, let it be Tom Nook please.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Pac-Man >> Waluigi

 

[Deleted member]

Pac-man > Waluigi

As big a Waluigi fan I am, I agree with this.

 

[BKupa666]

One absence does not rule out a character from being a viable inclusion. As was stated above, Diddy was nowhere to be found in Jungle Beat, the big DK game of the GCN era, and still made it into Brawl. Before you bring up the sports games (which probably weren't a factor anyways), Dixie was planned for Brawl as well despite appearing in just one or two of them (like K. Rool), and was cut not because of a lack of appearances, but because she couldn't work as a duo character with Diddy.

tl;dr Find a better argument than relevance.

 

[3Bismyname]

i think that guy already threw in the towel lol

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

AC's role in Smash made me think of Konami's similar case with Tokimeki Memorial, where they used the series as a stage in Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius in almost same heavy vein as Animal Crossing (with loads of references to the series and all).

Though even if the poster girl of the series (Shiori Fujisaki) appears as a quest boss out of nowhere in Otomedius Excellent.

 

[Starphoenix]

To some degree I understand why Sakurai feels the way he does. It's kind of like throwing a butterfly in a container with a spider, wheel bug and millipede; they just aren't alike. Contrary to every other series in Brawl (with the possible exception of Game and Watch), Animal Crossing has no violence of any kind, anywhere. There is no enemy to beat; only relax with townsfolk and obsessively collect stuff for hours on end. There was a contingent of people that did not like Phoenix Wright in UMvC3 for the very reason of being out of place. The same could happen with Animal Crosser, or any other character. Would it? I personally doubt it, but given how sensitive Sakurai is to his work (see Wario during Brawl's post-E3 poll), he probably doesn't even want to take that chance.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, relevancy is such a flawed statement to begin with that using it as an argument doesn't work. I personally blame Pokemon and Fire Emblem for making people have that mentally.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Relevancy is not the same as recent appearances though. King K.Rool might not have recent appearances, but he's hugely relevant to the DKC series as a whole. And there was a huge backlash of him not being included in Returns.

Recent appearances do HELP however when considering a character. No doubt it'll help Little Mac for example. But you cannot honestly expect no newcomes for the DKC series. It's next to Metroid one of the worst represented series in Smash, and those two series have been in Smash since the 64 days. K.Rool is HUGELY demanded also, and nowadays even rivals Ridley. Even triumphs him, if only slightly.

Relevancy is an important aspect when considering a character. But please know what the word means in the first place. Then again, there's also retro characters, but those will be added for the purpose of reviving the character / series. Hence why such arguements won't really work for characters as Takamaru for example.

Pokemon and Fire Emblem are the series with the most new faces every generation of games however. And they also have their creators, the Pokemon Company and Intelligent Systems who have a little saying over which characters will be included, and which not. Sakurai went to IS for example to ask which character should be in for a new Fire Emblem face, and they suggested him Ike.

 

[Feels]

As it stand now, there is no disputing that out of all of the Mario characters, he at least considered him at one point.

Sure, maybe he's considered it, but in the Final product he wouldn't be that silly.


You still haven't addressed that point being that, Waddle Dee, Waluigi and Toad are extremely minor characters in every game that they've been in. I don't doubt the fact that Sakurai could have them in if he wanted to, what I'm getting at is that having those characters being playable in the first place is rather silly. I mean, where's the barrier with adding new characters? We might as well add Boos, Koopas, Goombas, Parakoopas, Paragoombas, Waddle Doos, Birdos, Gorons, Like-Likes, Toadette, Hammer Bros, Fire Bros, Luigis mansion Ghosts, Zoras, Dry Bones, Wigglers, Metroids, Tetris blocks, every racer from F-Zero, Piranha Plants, and every single Pokemon in this game too, right?

Maybe because people want the characters?

If you want to talk about what characters people want, Roy and Meetwo would top that list, not to mention hundreds of Third-party characters that could be requested. The only people I see requesting those characters are, well, you guys. Again, that was my personal opinion and not set-in-stone for what is going to happen you guys, lol.

 

[Moon Monkey]

The relevancy argument is highly inconsistent based on brawl's roster alone.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Diddy: Can I say FE's also one of the most worst represented series in Smash? Music aside.

Feels: Hahahah, saying Waddle/Bandanna Dee, Toad and Waluigi (though WL is bit debatable case) are same as the ordinary enemies in the series. Are you being serious? Can you prove why they're such a minor characters?

 

[BKupa666]

You're right, I've become used to people using "relevant" to denote recent appearances, and vice versa. Must have been all the time on GameFAQs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy: Can I say FE's also one of the most worst represented series in Smash? Music aside.

Yes, and no. In Melee, it was hugely overpresented in characters given nobody in the west knew about the series. But yeah, I would've liked it myself to if we'd gotten say, Lyn in Brawl. Or Roy. But 3 FE reps is much, considering DK and Metroid would still have 2. I hope all 3 of these series at least get 3 characters in SSB4 however. And I'm positive that 3 will be the least ammount we'd get for DK and Fire Emblem, and a 4th character is also a good possibility (Dixie and Roy).

Toad is no minor character. At least, not in ALL Mario games. When he does turn out playable, he's usually a BAWS. And given how much Luigi and Peach take from their abilities in... that one game based on Mario's dream where Wart is the boss, Toad makes an easy additional character. And he and Luigi and Peach are the only ones being playable in Mario adventure games anyway.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think that relevancy means whether a character is important to their series, overall, not just one game or two. And recentness means a character appeared in the latest game of their series.

So, King K. Rool and Dixie Kong might not have "recentness" in their favor... but they certainly do have "relevancy" on their side.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Diddy: Well that, but I want to also say Smash Bros doesn't do near to none good job representing FE properly for those who don't know about the series. Dear God, how much I had no idea what the games were actually like before I got to try FE7. My head went asplode due how good the series actually is.

I mean, why there's no items from the series? Why there's only trophies from Tellius (And such a small number too?) Why people seem to think Ike and Marth (and Roy) seem the only characters existing in the series, aside from FE-fans? Why aren't we given any showcasing of different character types (like Pegasus Knights, Pirates, Generals, you know) in the series in any way?

Okay, I didn't mean this all too seriously, but you get what I mean.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hence why I say all the time Sheik is hugely irrelevant to the Zelda series. If she was in Twilight Princess, I would've shut my mouth about her, and Impa. But since it's not the case...

Can see what you mean though yeah. Castle Seige was a nice, nice, nice addition as a stage. But would've liked a stage based on Akanea and Tellius as well. Throphies also had a lot of potential. How I'd love to see a Hector, Eliwood, Roy, Sigurd, Cecil, Ephrahim & Eirika, Lyon or WHOEVER throphy.

Thing is though, the trophies in Brawl where just model rips from recent games. And RD was released just a few months before Brawl. Hence we got only Sothe and the Black Knight. And as Lyn was already an AT, she got a trophy to. Would love to see more faces as trophies though. Items however... It's hard to think of ones that'd make sence.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, the trophy thing can be blamed by the fact that the trophy models in Brawl were ripped directly from other games. This is why Fire Emblem, Wario, Mother, and Kid Icarus have such low amounts of trophies and a lot of the trophies are based on the more recent games like Pokemon Battle Revolution and Twilight Princess.

 

[3Bismyname]

if we said recentness was the same as relevancy than we should really look at dropping Marth, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ganandorf, Sheik, and Ness. lets even drop Capt Falcon and all retro character besides Pit because they havent had games in years. that's how stupid the argument sounds from my end at times

 

[Diddy Kong]

if we said recentness was the same as relevancy than we should really look at dropping Marth, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ganandorf, Sheik, and Ness. lets even drop Capt Falcon and all retro character besides Pit because they havent had games in years. that's how stupid the argument sounds from my end at times

Marth = recent, and was a retro addtion of sorts in Melee actually. Also heavily suggested in Melee by the Japanese.
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ness, Captain Falcon = originals from 64. No debate.
Ganondorf = always relevant to the Zelda series.
Sheik = a whole new issue all togheter.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Ah, right. But sheesh, sometimes this makes me think that Brawl feels somewhat half-baked. Lol at Miyamoto's saying "A delayed game will be eventually good, but a rushed bad game will be bad forever.).
Brawl is good, but it feels half-baked. Even some of the trophy descriptions are whacked out incorrect.

Castle Siege coverred some of the major stage elements in the series which was a nice thing from the team.

 

[---]

It isn't one of the criteria, but one does have to admit that it does not hurt. That said there are plenty of other examples that contradict relevancy in the series:

Jigglypuff (for obvious reasons), Marth (hadn't been in an FE game since 1993), Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Diddy Kong (wasn't in a major DK game since DK64 when he got in), Pit, Sheik (Diddy's right on this one), etc.

Brawl is good, but it feels half-baked.

I'd say the same for past games in the series as well. 64 for it's lack of content, Melee for it's clones, etc. No Smash game has been perfect.

 

[Feels]

Toad is no minor character. At least, not in ALL Mario games. When he does turn out playable, he's usually a BAWS. And given how much Luigi and Peach take from their abilities in... that one game based on Mario's dream where Wart is the boss, Toad makes an easy additional character. And he and Luigi and Peach are the only ones being playable in Mario adventure games anyway.

In the majority of Mario games Toads are just side-characters that usually just tell Mario stuff/give him items. Toads when they are playable are usually just filler characters too. This is why I would prefer Bowser Jr to Toad; Bowser Jr. is much more important in the Mario series as a whole than Toad, and they could easily make his movest based on what he's actually done in-games.

 

[3Bismyname]

Marth = recent, and was a retro addtion of sorts in Melee actually. Also heavily suggested in Melee by the Japanese.
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ness, Captain Falcon = originals from 64. No debate.
Ganondorf = always relevant to the Zelda series.
Sheik = a whole new issue all togheter.

but u realize how confusing relevancy with recentness is incorrect. these characters haven't starred in a game in a long time so yeah they arent recent, but they are all still relevant to their respective series.

i'm not gonna touch on the whole Sheik thing tho cause i really dont care.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'd say the same for past games in the series as well. 64 for it's lack of content, Melee for it's clones, etc. No Smash game has been perfect.

Smash 64 was justified considering the low budget and memory constraints preventing much from being implemented.

Disregarding the clones, Melee is still the most polished game in terms of content and gameplay in my opinion.

 

[Starphoenix]

Sure, maybe he's considered it, but in the Final product he wouldn't be that silly.

Look, I'm no Waluigi fan, but he is no less of a deserving candidate than any other character out there.

Who says I'm not impartial.

You still haven't addressed that point being that, Waddle Dee, Waluigi and Toad are extremely minor characters in every game that they've been in. I don't doubt the fact that Sakurai could have them in if he wanted to, what I'm getting at is that having those characters being playable in the first place is rather silly. I mean, where's the barrier with adding new characters? We might as well add Boos, Koopas, Goombas, Parakoopas, Paragoombas, Waddle Doos, Birdos, Gorons, Like-Likes, Toadette, Hammer Bros, Fire Bros, Luigis mansion Ghosts, Zoras, Dry Bones, Wigglers, Metroids, Tetris blocks, every racer from F-Zero, Piranha Plants, and every single Pokemon in this game too, right?

Here's a really good litmus test for characters. If they aren't playable or significant secondary characters; then don't consider them.

If you want to talk about what characters people want, Roy and Meetwo would top that lists, not to mention hundreds of Third-party characters that could be requested. The only people I see requesting those characters are, well, you guys.

You can visit some of the other electronic boards around the net and find more than just us asking for King K. Rool and Dixie Kong.

 

[Feels]

I don't see how Brawl feels half-baked; the amount if content in that one game disc alone is simply astounding.

The only thing really half-baked about it IMO is how you can tell some of the characters were added late in development, like Sonic, but that's really a minor complaint.

Here's a really good litmus test for characters. If they aren't playable or significant secondary characters; then don't consider them.

Playability shouldn't count, for example a lot of the characters I listed could have been played in Mario Kart while stuff like Ganon weren't playable until they SSB appearence.
Secondary characters shouldn't be in the game at all IMO (mind you, by secondary I don't mean characters like Luigi or Diddy Kong, who are important to the series as a whole, but characters like all the Mario grunts I listed because overall to the series they are not important.)

 

[---]

Smash 64 was justified considering the low budget and memory constraints preventing much from being implemented.

Disregarding the clones, Melee is still the most polished game in terms of content and gameplay in the series in my opinion.

Excuses excuses. But yeah I'll agree with Melee being the most polished (and I'm not talking gameplay wise, but in general), that's not to say it doesn't have it's own problems.

If anything though, I have a huge hope that Smash 4 will build off the foundations of the past games for the best Smash yet. 64 was small, Melee was hard, Brawl introduced too much, with Namco at Sakurai's side I'm feeling very confident that these flaws will be ironed out and my hopes will come true.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Toad being a filler if being playable. Wat. And he's been longer around than Bowser Jr. And hell, is even more prominent in games than he is. And his species too.

And I had to laugh up on whole "Bowser Jr is more important than Toad"-statements. Toad is gonna be seen mostly anywhere where spinoffs are considered (nowadays at least). Bowser Jr gets shafted to boss appearances it's beyond ridiculous. Toad also has been around the games since start.

Feels: There's loads of content, but most of them don't really work well or are inferior to last titles. Oh man, were to even start?

TripleHyper: Yeah, but I think Brawl getting delayed to deliver even yet another half-baked title which was so hyped on makes me cringe. (-=_L-);

Anyway, like ya said, here's hoping things get balanced in SSB4. We'd get best of each games without getting too much or too less.

 

[Diddy Kong]

but u realize how confusing relevancy with recentness is dumb right. these character haven't starred in a game in a long time so yeah they arent recent, but they are all still relevant to their respective series.

Yes they did. At least, some of them.

-Pikachu is still nr 1 mascot of the Pokemon series. And had some starring roles in some Pokemon spin off series in the last few years. Rest assured, Pika will NEVER leave Smash. Easily the one of most recognizable characters ever.
-Jigglypuff had an appearance in Pokemon Conquest I think? Otherwise, one of the first 151 Pokes and in since 64, no debate.
-Ness is the face of his series as of Smash 64. Many feared when Lucas was announced, and Ness wasn't revealed he'd be cut. Yet the fears where in vain, and I doubt he'll ever leave at this point. Mother will get a remake or such soon to, so Ness won't go anywhere. Lucas maybe, but not Ness.
-Captain Falcon is also the actual main face of his series. And removing him would also result in removing everything F-Zero related out of Smash. Doubt that'll happen, even though his series is as good as dead. Nintendo Land helps a little in his case... Then again, his moveset is completely made up and iconic to Smash as heck. Falcon Punch has become larger than life on the internet also in recent years. He won't leave. As Black Shadow would say: Watashi Wa Shinen? SHINENZU!

Spoiler

Means> he won't ****ing die, unless hit by a Falcon Punch. YES!

-Marth: was in ALL Fire Emblem games after Brawl was released. Yes, ALL of them. Seems like people where complaining about him not being relevant? He's also heavily mentoined and even has in-game fame in FE13. He's the Star Lord and Hero King man. Won't ever leave Smash either.
-Ganondorf: Is Ganon, the main villain of Zelda since day 1 in human form. People wanted him in badly. Hence they did everything they could to make it work. At least, in Melee. :/ Still, as Demise is basically Ganon's earliest incaration, he'd still make some sence being in Smash 4. And unlike Sheik, was actually in Twilight Princess. And before even in Wind Waker. AND UNLIKE SHEIK- will without any doubt, return to the Zelda series one day. If not the next Zelda most likely.
-Retro's where added for revival purposes. So no, they shouldn't even be considered relevant, but their series aren't relevant even. So they're just a cool bunch of characters older gamers might recognise.

Again, Sheik is on a whole different level than all these. Hence I want her replaced for Impa.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Smash 64 was justified considering the low budget and memory constraints preventing much from being implemented.

Disregarding the clones, Melee is still the most polished game in terms of content and gameplay in my opinion.

i agree with this statement

 

[Diddy Kong]

Me to.

Hopefullt Smash 4 will blow that all away though.

 

[3Bismyname]

@Diddy Kong. dude im not arguing that they should be removed. im saying confusing recentness with relevancy is wrong. I dont want any of those character removed. if the roster was created with recentness in mind then all those character (minus Marth i guess) technically would be looking at a drop. however its about relevancy, they are all still relevant to their series regardless of their removal from leading roles.

 

[Feels]

Toad being a filler if being playable. Wat. And he's been longer around than Bowser Jr. And hell, is even more prominent in games than he is. And his species too.

And I had to laugh up on whole "Bowser Jr is more important than Toad"-statements. Toad is gonna be seen mostly anywhere where spinoffs are considered (nowadays at least). Bowser Jr gets shafted to boss appearances it's beyond ridiculous. Toad also has been around the games since start.

Ok, your argument is beyond ridiculous so let's break this down.

-Toad is more important because he's older and been there since the start
Oh my lord! I guess Toad is more important than Yoshi then! Not to mention all he did in the original was say "The princess is in another castle!" This already is half your argument, which is amazing, but let's continue with what your post has said to me:
-Toad shows up in Mario Spin-offs
This is too funny. You completely ignore that fact that Bowser Jr. Has been in tons of Mario-spin-offs since his debut.
-Bowser Jr. gets shafted to boss appearances
That alone makes him more Important than Toad! All Toad does is sit in the sidelines! Not to mention Bowser Jr. shows up as a boss time and time again making him very important to the series.

And by me saying 'Toad is a filler when playable' is completely true. He was only in SMB2 because they ran out of characters to replace the ones from DokiDoki Panic. Not to mention, several other characters were considered for the last two spots for NSMBWII, but they decided on Toad because he was the most similar in structure to the Mario bros and they wouldn't have to program changes in like they would have if they choose Wario/Peach (who were being considered)

 

[Big-Cat]

Castle Siege coverred some of the major stage elements in the series which was a nice thing from the team.

This reminds me of the stage mechanics I've suggested before. Having tiered stages that are entered by slamming the opponents into the ground, walls, or balconies would really make stages different and almost matter without resorting to gimmicks.

If anything though, I have a huge hope that Smash 4 will build off the foundations of the past games for the best Smash yet. 64 was small, Melee was hard, Brawl introduced too much, with Namco at Sakurai's side I'm feeling very confident that these flaws will be ironed out and my hopes will come true.

Melee was hard for the wrong reasons (L-Canceling), and Brawl gutted too much in the gameplay without compensating. In other words, Brawl streamlined, but it didn't add around it.

I know Sakurai's preference is to "reconstruct" genres when he works in them, so hopefully Namco will help out identifying what should be added in.

I thought Tom Nook would of been obvious since KumaOso has a fascination with raccoon, but I digress.

Red pandas in particular, but I like raccoons too. They're like little forest monkeys.

 

[3Bismyname]

Ok, your argument is beyond ridiculous so let's break this down.

-Toad is more important because he's older and been there since the start
Oh my lord! I guess Toad is more important than Yoshi then! Not to mention all he did in the original was say "The princess is in another castle!" This already is half your argument, which is amazing, but let's continue with what your post has said to me:
-Toad shows up in Mario Spin-offs
This is too funny. You completely ignore that fact that Bowser Jr. Has been in tons of Mario-spin-offs since his debut.
-Bowser Jr. gets shafted to boss appearances
That alone makes him more Important than Toad! All Toad does is sit in the sidelines! Not to mention Bowser Jr. shows up as a boss time and time again making him very important to the series.

And by me saying 'Toad is a filler when playable' is completely true. He was only in SMB2 because they ran out of characters to replace the ones from DokiDoki Panic. Not to mention, several other characters were considered for the last two spots for NSMBWII, but they decided on Toad because he was the most similar in structure to the Mario bros and they wouldn't have to program changes in like they would have if they choose Wario/Peach (who were being considered)

Luigi was filler. in yet he made it into the first Smash. regardless of how Toad ever became playable in Mario games he was still playable. overall Toad's history in the Mario universe trumps Jrs. yes Jr takes a more dynamic role in the platformers, but keep in mind that Toad is in all of them as well.

 

[Feels]

Luigi was filler. in yet he made it into the first Smash. regardless of how Toad ever became playable in Mario games he was still playable.

Luigi was still very important to the series as a whole, even if he was filler, unlike Toad. And also unlike Toad, as time went on Luigi became massively more important to the Mario series as a whole.

Luigi was only added to 64 because he was easy to program (same with Jiggs), but as time went on and he became more important in the Mario series, his SSB character reflected that.

Again the whole "playability" argument is invalid because several characters in Smash weren't playable/barely playable until they got in the game (such as Ganondorf once again)

yes Jr takes a more dynamic role in the platformers, but keep in mind that Toad is in all of them as well.

You should listen to yourself. Just because Toad is in more games (and by being in those games he usually does nothing important) that automatically makes him a more important character to the series as a whole, and that we should completely disregard what the characters a finally do in those games? C'mon, your argument is lacking and you know it.