Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Starphoenix]

Hum, does this still mean that Assists will stay as Assists because what kind of circumstances were given to them to not be playable?

Sakurai may have intended for some of them to be playable, but decided to prioritize other characters; they may have been on Sakurai's initial roster. Who knows. It's probably not a coincidence many of them are from B-list series, but it's not a death sentence either. Charizard was a Pokéball before he was playable.

Based upon my research into my theory on Brawl's missing series, it's probably not far fetched to believe one of them were in the running to be playable.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Nah, I don't think so. Bowser Jr is too small to share a lot of Bowser's smash similarities, he wouldn't be able to have that 'brute force' mentality that Bowser has going for him.

Yeah he also has those paint powers in Mario Tennis, he's definitely a different character.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sakurai may have intended for some of them to be playable, but decided to prioritize other characters; they may have been on Sakurai's initial roster. Who knows. It's probably not a coincidence many of them are from B-list series, but it's not a death sentence either. Charizard was a Pokéball before he was playable.

Based upon my research into my theory on Brawl's missing series, it's probably not far fetched to believe one of them were in the running to be playable.

It's quite possible that it was Saki at the very least.

He rivals just about any main character. There were many requests from users for his inclusion, and he IS pretty cool, so I did what I could to include him. After all, this game does let you enjoy a dream cast of supporting characters!

Who knows who else this could have applied to as well.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I doubt Saki was one of the characters that was initially supposed to be on the roster. Saki seemed more like a relatively late addition that couldn't be implemented on the roster, so they regulated the guy to an Assist Trophy instead. Especially with the "so I did what I could to include him" statement and the Assist Trophy being revealed relatively late compared to others.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, I wasn't saying that he was on the initial roster. We know who was on it minus who prai_mai is. He was probably like Elena for SSF4 - a character they considered, but just missed the cut. The only difference being that some considered weren't considered until after the requests for them came in.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It seemed like the Forbidden 7 were more along the lines of late additional filler characters that were going to be considered if there needed to be padding, or in the case of Dixie Kong, leftover data for the character during the "Diddy + Dixie" phase with the empty file still being left in the coding.

 

[lobotheduck21]

So let me get this straight...

Starphoenix = Waddle Dee
SmashChu = Sheriff
Bkupa666 = King K. Rool
ChronoBound = Roy
Oasis_S = Ridley
GoldenYuiitusin = Waluigi
Diddy Kong = Impa
Arcadenik = Duck Hunt Dog
Young Horsetail = Starfy
Shortiecanbrawl = Krystal
Habanero = Takamaru

I might be off on some of these or might be missing some notable ones.

Of course I'm not on the list

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Well, I wasn't saying that he was on the initial roster. We know who was on it minus who prai_mai is. He was probably like Elena for SSF4 - a character they considered, but just missed the cut. The only difference being that some considered weren't considered until after the requests for them came in.

One thing I think why Saki wasn't added is because he might have appeared as too much of a character not majority of the audience of Smash Bros knows about, DESPITE how cool he have been. I mean, Sin & Punishment was still Japan-only back before Brawl DOJO's reveal and I can't see why Sin & Punishment deserved to be a featured franchise over more internationally released and known series (like Golden Sun or Advance Wars.)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

One thing I think why Saki wasn't added is because he might have appeared as too much of a character not majority of the audience of Smash Bros knows about, DESPITE how cool he have been. I mean, Sin & Punishment was still Japan-only back before Brawl DOJO's reveal and I can't see why Sin & Punishment deserved to be a featured franchise over more internationally released and known series (like Golden Sun or Advance Wars.)

Agreed. Saki was obscure compared to the likes of Isaac and Little Mac. At least in the west.

The question is, now that Sin and Punishment is an international series, should it have a character rep?

 

[Big-Cat]

One thing I think why Saki wasn't added is because he might have appeared as too much of a character not majority of the audience of Smash Bros knows about, DESPITE how cool he have been. I mean, Sin & Punishment was still Japan-only back before Brawl DOJO's reveal and I can't see why Sin & Punishment deserved to be a featured franchise over more internationally released and known series (like Golden Sun or Advance Wars.)

The same argument could have applied to Fire Emblem and to a lesser extent, Earthbound. Earthbound was an RPG that bombed in America and never released in Europe. Fire Emblem was mostly unknown outside of Japan yet both of those series had characters.

 

[FlareHabanero]

One thing I think why Saki wasn't added is because he might have appeared as too much of a character not majority of the audience of Smash Bros knows about, DESPITE how cool he have been.

Ahem...

 

[lobotheduck21]

Agreed. Saki was obscure compared to the likes of Isaac and Little Mac. At least in the west.

The question is, now that Sin and Punishment is an international series, should it have a character rep?

Sales wise no, s&p2 made too little money, s&p 1 was Japan only, and until I know the vc sales, based on the sales s&p will probably be passed up for Isaac or Shulk

 

[Second Power]

Sales wise no, s&p2 made too little money, s&p 1 was Japan only, and until I know the vc sales, based on the sales s&p will probably be passed up for Isaac or Shulk

Actually, there's an interview where someone from Treasure specifically cites good sales of the VC version as the reason they made the sequel. One moment.... Ah, here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sales wise no, s&p2 made too little money, s&p 1 was Japan only, and until I know the vc sales, based on the sales s&p will probably be passed up for Isaac or Shulk

You're probably right. But I remember reading somewhere that Saki was heavily requested in Japan during the pre-brawl days. Either way, it's a shame we may never be able to play as him.

What new series do you think will be repped with a new character? Golden Sun, Punch Out, Xenoblade and Custom Robo seem likely in my opinion.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Actually, there's an interview where someone from Treasure specifically cites good sales of the VC version as the reason they made the sequel. One moment.... Ah, here.

Ok, but what were the exact numbers

 

[N3ON]

The same argument could have applied to Fire Emblem and to a lesser extent, Earthbound. Earthbound was an RPG that bombed in America and never released in Europe. Fire Emblem was mostly unknown outside of Japan yet both of those series had characters.

To be fair, when Earthbound and Fire Emblem characters were initially included, it was never the intention for them to make it outside Japan. Obviously by Brawl Sakurai had loosened his opinion of including Japanese-only characters for the international market (hence Lucas), but I still don't think a character like Saki (who was never really exceptionally popular or anything in Japan, especially several years after his at-that-time standalone game came out) would be included over more popular characters from actual series (not just single installments) who had a worldwide audience, (or even just a larger Japanese audience) even if Sakurai was biased towards S&P. Not that he'd be a "bad" choice persay, but at that time there were several other more "deserving" (for lack of a better word) characters.

Now the series is obviously in a different place, and a different argument can be made.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Sin & Punishment was such a fun game. It was the 3D equivalent of a bullet hell shooter and was very fun for challenges. I cleared both the first and second titles and would be fine with either Saki Amimiya or Isa Jo. Since it had a sequel a few years after Brawl's release, I say the series deserves a playable rep. It also does have a cult fanbase in the West thanks to the VC release of Sin & Punishment and the Wii sequel. He could be an athletic gunner/swordsman, which would bring something new to the table. I officially fell in love with the franchise when he was first confirmed as an Assist Trophy and he is one of my favorites to summon.

 

[FlareHabanero]

To be fair, when Earthbound and Fire Emblem characters were initially included, it was never the intention for them to make it outside Japan.

EarthBound was released in 1995 in American territories and Super Smash Bros. was released in 1999, so technically the EarthBound part is false. Fire Emblem is also technically wrong if you count the dubbed Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem OVA back in 1996.

 

[Second Power]

Ok, but what were the exact numbers

We don't have them, but I fail to see how they're important. The devs said they were good. Average sales numbers don't inspire sequels, do they?

 

[N3ON]

EarthBound was released in 1995 in American territories and Super Smash Bros. was released in 1999, so technically the EarthBound part is false.

I meant Smash 64 was never intended to be released worldwide, so the roster was chosen with just the Japanese market in mind. I know Earthbound was released in NA.

EDIT: I didn't mean the characters themselves were never intended to be released outside Japan in their respective series, just that in Smash when Ness, Marth, and Roy were first included, they were included on the basis of only being released in their native territory, either because the game itself wasn't to be localized, or they were to be removed from the localized version. I wasn't speaking about the series themselves, just their inclusion in Smash.

 

[lobotheduck21]

We don't have them, but I fail to see how they're important. The devs said they were good. Average sales numbers don't inspire sequels, do they?

Well, golden sun games have sold pretty well (minus dark dawn), xenoblade was literally brought here by fan demand, starfy had good sells, besides character reasons I do,t see why saki or iso would be chosen over more popular characters who's games have sold well

 

[FlareHabanero]

Only Marth and Roy had some initial plans of removal, while Ness didn't have any of the sort. Even then the Fire Emblem characters were still kept due to positive reception by the western audience.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Well, golden sun games have sold pretty well (minus dark dawn), xenoblade was literally brought here by fan demand, starfy had good sells, besides character reasons I do,t see why saki or iso would be chosen over more popular characters who's games have sold well

I'd have to agree with this. If a series doesn't sell well, or just isn't a good game in general, then no, that series really shouldn't have a rep in Smash 4. So the sales can matter in some way or another.

That won't ruin a characters chances, but if a character wasn't popular, then there would be little reason to add them to a game like Smash, unless of course there are other categories to place a character under, such as a retro or 3rd party addition.

 

[N3ON]

Only Marth and Roy had some initial plans of removal, while Ness didn't have any of the sort.

Yes. I know. All I was saying is that Ness's inclusion was at a point in the series where the game was to be Japanese-only, and the roster was based solely on the Japanese market, unlike if Saki was to be included in Brawl, which is what I was saying to Kuma.

No, Ness was never planned to be removed from the localized Smash 64s, I never said that, I just said his inclusion was at a point in time where the intention was to not release it internationally.

 

[Second Power]

Well, golden sun games have sold pretty well (minus dark dawn), xenoblade was literally brought here by fan demand, starfy had good sells, besides character reasons I do,t see why saki or iso would be chosen over more popular characters who's games have sold well

I suppose. In an ideal world, we'd see Saki, Isaac, Little Mac, Shulk, and Starfy in the next one. Unfortunately, we'll be lucky to see 2. Especially given that Sakurai is pretty stubborn at keep newer characters out unless they really wow him. Saki and Little Mac are both sort of confirmed to have, while Starfy was rejected, and Isaac treated like all the other ATs. Here's to hoping for Shulk.

 

[lobotheduck21]

I suppose. In an ideal world, we'd see Saki, Isaac, Little Mac, Shulk, and Starfy in the next one. Unfortunately, we'll be lucky to see 2. Especially given that Sakurai is pretty stubborn at keep newer characters out unless they really wow him. Saki and Little Mac are both sort of confirmed to have, while Starfy was rejected, and Isaac treated like all the other ATs. Here's to hoping for Shulk.

Not to mention Zael, Aeron, and Ray

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Ahem...

I'm aware of these. I think you interpreted my point bit wrong.

These characters were either more widely known (Captain Falcon, Ness to US), or were from more popular series (Fire Emblem) than Saki. Even if they weren't that huge in Smash, they were at least not coming out of nowhere completely (Except Marth, but hell, he was even to be removed from international releases of Melee once before release)
I'm not joking when saying it would have been going overboard with him being unknown to the main audience of Smash if adding him. Saki IMO would have felt like coming totally out of nowhere in Smash,(being from a Japan-only cult classic title) only pertaining to have moveset potential as a reason to be in (Ice Climbers had that too, but they were running for a NES Retro rep spot anyway.)

Ah man, I guess I'm just bit getting tired of unlogical choices which seem to be based more on bias and what else... I kinda wish the roster choices would be more logical than absolutely whacked and based on bias which seems to unfavor series that would even "deserve" more to be in Smash than other, ya know?

Ah, N3ON ninja'd me.

 

[Second Power]

Not to mention Zael, Aeron, and Ray

RAY! How on earth did I forget him? Though, in all fairness, Aeron's game did poorly, and I don't see a NA release really changing it. Especially since the Wii-U was released already. Then, of course, you have the other underdog's underdog like Fossil Fighters (though, not that much of a stretch. If VG charts are to be believed, they actually have sales comparable to Xenoblade), Rythme Heaven, Dillon and his other friends from the E-Shop, etc.

 

[lobotheduck21]

RAY! How on earth did I forget him? Though, in all fairness, Aeron's game did poorly, and I don't see a NA release really changing it. Especially since the Wii-U was released already. Then, of course, you have the other underdog's underdog like Fossil Fighters (though, not that much of a stretch. If VG charts are to be believed, they actually have sales comparable to Xenoblade), Rythme Heaven, Dillon and his other friends from the E-Shop, etc.

Not to mention all the retro's

Edit: According to Wikipedia, Nintendo does own the adventure of lolo series (eggerland) (not like lolo has a high chance)

 

[FlareHabanero]

I still don't see how Saki would be any worse then a lot of the characters implemented in Super Smash Bros. over the years. Not saying that Saki is going to appear, but how would that character be any worse in terms of publicity? Hell, why should it even matter to begin with?

 

[lobotheduck21]

I still don't see how Saki would be any worse then a lot of the characters implemented in Super Smash Bros. over the years. Not saying that Saki is going to appear, but how would that character be any different?

I'm not saying tha saki wouldn't be cool, but he doesn't seem to have as high a chance as Isaac or Shulk

 

[Little Nemo]

I'd love Saki. Would bring a lot to the Smash table I think.
I was going to list characters I want but a lot of them aren't really going to go well with everyone here. I'd love another Mother rep. And despite hating DK as a series I think they should get another rep or even two. FE would be a great series to get another rep. Though I actually would prefer to get more series in rather than adding to the currently present series list.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I still don't see how Saki would be any worse then a lot of the characters implemented in Super Smash Bros. over the years. Not saying that Saki is going to appear, but how would that character be any worse in terms of publicity? Hell, why should it even matter to begin with?

I'm not saying he shouldn't be in. But in any case, into the publicity issue though:

Smash Bros should stay at least logical behind the inclusions of characters. I mean, even Sakurai said in this article that he tries to go for a balance that satisfies most of the fans (and he succeeded, most of the part.)

My point is that Saki, not being much in the same league as the Brawl newcomers (if he was to be added in Brawl as the sole franchise from the C-listers), would have felt really out of place and unknown to most people, which in turn, would cause more negative things to happen for next roster choices. I think we'd have even more illogical requests because we don't care about the characters' relevancy or popularity anymore- I mean, moveset potential, if being good enough to Sakurai, is enough to include some series, right?

Okay, I'll put it short: if Sakurai is judging on C-listers, yet includes someone (supposedly in Brawl's times) that much none, except Nintendo-enthutiastics, would have known about because he appeals to him, it's just being... hypocritical, goes against the logics behind reasonings of including popular or mass-appealing characters, and heck, it'd be even selfish. Especially if it'd get predictable in every game, and if some other series would be agreed within the community to deserve more to be in Smash than one favoured by Sakurai. I could just go call Smash Bros "Sakurai's Fighting Game" already if it was to go at this direction. I can't see why he should keep on servicing himself more in a game which is essentially a fanservice game, especially if majority of people would have preferred otherwise.

It's also going bit overboard with the use of reasoning "they're this game's WTF-character" and "they'll be revived in Smash Bros". I dunno would Sakurai like to get requests for certain characters because they'd be hoped to get revived, and hell, I dunno why Super Smash Bros should promote series it couldn't make accessible to people before it's development or release. It's just making Smash Bros feel like some promotion game rather than an allstar fighting party game.
(*coughkidicaruscoincidentallycough*)

At the end, I'm just wishing that we won't be getting very illogical additions in (supposedly) "Nintendo All Star" game all the time and just because Sakurai's bias let's it happen (Hence "Sakurai's Nintendo Fighting Game") You have to admit, the one's in Brawl had more going for them than Saki (and hell, even some of the Assist Trophies), so he would have really felt unrecognizable for most.

Lockable: Go ahead though, you can put one in the Roster Prediction thread. We don't bite.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

As long as a few characters I want get in, I wouldn't mind Saki in Smash 4. But as Young Horsetail said before, he would've been a bit strange with the rest of the cast in Brawl. Making him an assist trophy was just right.

Maybe now his chances are better, but I wouldn't say he is confirmed for the next installment. He DOES have competition in other characters. I think if the amount of characters added ends up somewhere around like 15, he'll probably be in. But i'm not too sure if it's a much smaller amount.

 

[lobotheduck21]

As long as a few characters I want get in, I wouldn't mind Saki in Smash 4. But as Young Horsetail said before, he would've been a bit strange with the rest of the cast in Brawl. Making him an assist trophy was just right.

Maybe now his chances are better, but I wouldn't say he is confirmed for the next installment. He DOES have competition in other characters. I think if the amount of characters added ends up somewhere around like 15, he'll probably be in. But i'm not too sure if it's a much smaller amount.

Exactly how I feel

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The thing people don't always keep in mind about Super Smash Bros. as a series, is that its basically one huge advertisement. It is used to introduce particular series to players who haven't played it before, and celebrate the company's history as a whole.

Had it not been for Smash Bros., I would never have played Metal Gear Solid (which is now one of my favorite game series of all time), The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus: Uprising, and I really wouldn't have an interest in beginning to play Fire Emblem once Awakening is released in North America.

So really, if advertisement is an issue, this is the game to put a character in. However, that doesn't mean other characters won't get in, as recognizing popular games and their cast is important as well, which also advertises other games. Xenoblade Chronicles, Golden Sun, and Sin & Punishment all fall under this category (Xenoblade more recently than the other two obviously) so it is quite possible that Nintendo will decide to build off of the popularity of Shulk and his game, or Isaac and his, or even both. Saki doesn't have this advantage, as his games were not as successful or widespread if you will. Basically, Shulk leads here.

Overall, here is how we can look at it. According to an article I saw in some other thread, Sakurai stated that while he wants to make the game balanced, he isn't going to let that completely limit him on how many characters he added. However, this isn't exactly what he said at the start, which is that they won't add as many characters.

So, if there are going to be less characters added than the previous games, that means we will see anywhere between 17 (I think were added into Brawl, not counting them as mere replacements) and I would say roughly 10. So lets go with a hypothetical 15 characters.

We can have: Ridley, Mewtwo, K. Rool, Palutena, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Takamaru, 2nd retro/WTF. That only takes 8 slots, and thats basically a majority of the most popular choices in this point in time.

Characters that remain that are notable include: Isaac, Shulk, Saki, Little Mac, Mario rep, Zelda Rep, Roy, Chrom, Starfy, etc...(you get the idea).

So look at it this way, basically, even after all of the most popular choices are added, there is more than enough wiggle room for other characters to be in, allowing all three of the blonde warriors to be Smash Brothers. Wonderful isn't it?

I think i'm going to further analyze the possibilities that the amount of roster spots give us, combined with the fact that there were other characters that were meant to be in Brawl in the first place. I may make a blog about it soon.

Sorry about the Wall O Text, but it just kind of kept coming the more I typed. Don't always consider the roster as tiny and cramped. Remember the possibilities!

 

[Moon Monkey]

As long as:

1) King K. Rool
2) Ridley
3) Dixie Kong
4) Pac-man
5) Megaman

I don't care who gets in.

 

[ChronoBound]

I had a dream about Smash 4:

The character selection screen was arranged like this:

First row:
Mario Luigi Bowser Peach Toad Yoshi

Second row:
Link Zelda/Sheik Ganondorf Toon Link Wario Jimmy T

Third row:
Kirby Meta Knight King Dedede Waddle Dee Donkey Kong Diddy Kong

Fourth row:
Samus/ZSS Ridley Fox Falco Wolf Captain Falcon

Fifth row:
Pikachu Jigglypuff Mewtwo Pokemon Trainer Lucario Some new Pokemon

Sixth row:
Marth Roy Ike Anna Ness Lucas

Seventh row:
Pit Ice Climbers Mr. Game & Watch ROB Takamaru Sheriff

Eighth row:
Olimar Some new character Snake Sonic Mega Man Pac-Man

There was also a bar that said "Mii" on the left side of the character selection screen, and a bar that said "Random" on the right side of the character selection screen.

When you clicked on the Mii bar, a window would open up to the left of it to pick out a Mii to use.

Jimmy T.'s moveset consisted of all attacks that involved dancing.

Pretty strange huh.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Pac Man makes sense since Namco went out of their way to advertise him in a videogame crossover film (Wreck It Ralph).

 

[Second Power]

So, Chronobound, when you say 'some new pokemon' do you mean a 5th gen one you don't know the name of, or a yet to be revealed pokemon? I suppose it'd be too much to ask you to describe them, or the new character.

More on topic: We talk about how some franchises are over-represented in Smash, but what about under-represented series in Smash? Any thoughts?

Spoiler

inb4F-Zero