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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

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FishSlappinDance

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Some Japanese fanbase observations updates:
- Nothing much has changed.
- A lot more requests for Pac-Man

There is a lot of opposition to Pac-Man, particularly from those who want Tales character (of which they absolutely cannot agree on who should rep the series and are at each others throats on this subject). They use the typical points against Pac-Man (boring, bland) and say Tales is the series Namco is known for it, therefore it should get the guest spot for a Namco character.

Found a discussion about cuts. Most of the people think Ike and Lucario are goners (and that Chrom and Zoroark will replace them). Snake and Sonic are next in line in terms of beliefs about being cut. I have also seen people say Toon Link, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and ROB could be cut.

Some dumb Leon (Resident Evil) fanboy derailed a thread I usually look at. Reminds me of Diddy Kong in that he would never stop bringing him up. Other posters reactions to him also reminded me similar to the Impa situation here (with a lot of them saying "Im leaving now, thanks for ruining this discussion").
1. So Mewtwo, Mega Man, K. Rool, and Ridley are still the top 4? Or did I get my sources mixed up? :(

2. I have doubts regarding :snakebrawl:, :sonicbrawl:, and :robbrawl: getting cut. I'd say a similar occurrence happened with Melee to Brawl when people felt that :icsmelee: and :gwmelee: would get cut but when Brawl was done, boom, those two were there. You see, when a new franchise is introduced to Smash, I feel like it's not going to be removed.

3. I'd have to agree that these characters are viable for cuts (with the exception of Ike):
:ptbrawl: :wolfbrawl: :toonlinkbrawl: :lucariobrawl:

I'm fairly certain Fire Emblem is big enough to host three reps. so I'm a bit surprised Ike's thrown under the bus.

Wolf was really a redundant character so I'm not surprised people want him cut. Unless Sakurai can differentiate him further (Specials and FS) then I'd oppose his inclusion.

Has a "Toon-style" Zelda game been released recently ('09-'12)? As with Wolf, I wouldn't mind his exclusion.

I'm assuming PT was a nice concept on paper but executed with flaws (stamina, forced switching) which may lead to why people didn't like him, regardless of the fact he had Charizard. Lucario seems to be the "one-time posterboy" for a generation but he's still a popular character within the Pokemon series, appearing in BW2 and prominent in Pokemon marketing. Is Zoroark really that more popular now?
 

ChronoBound

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What are your opinions on all of those subjects Chronobound? I'm interested because its nice knowing who has a generally good chance of getting in.

Well besides Leon. That just won't happen.
I think if Pac-Man can withstand the onslaught by the Tales fanbase, he will easily become the second-most wanted third-party newcomer for Smash 4, and break into the Top 10 too.

Trends for the Japanese fanbase tend to move slower. It took a while for Palutena's fanbase to really build up (same with Shulk), there is a lot less discussion. I have yet to see any discussion that rivals what is seen on the more intelligent Western forums. For example, I have yet to see anyone bring up any messages pertaining to the announcement of Generation 6 and how it relates to Smash Bros. among the Japanese Smash fanbase (probably will change in a month).
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Well, that's about all we CAN do man. I mean, unless you wanna have boring discussion about Sales and Popularity polls which are just as biased and flawed as conceptual ideas. At least with the latter you can put yourself in the developer's seat and get an idea of what must be considered when making a game. Especially if you use other successful games as reference.

Really, if you sit down and think about it, 90% of our speculation, be it polls, sales or concepts, is just a shot in the dark, at least until we get a trailer to go off of.
When I made that post, I was referring more to how users tend to treat their opinion or ideas as fact, when it just isn't.

Doing that is much different than speculating.
 

Big-Cat

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Well here's the thing: Smash Bros is character driven. SF, MvC, BB, they could all basically have playable walking turds clones of Ryu (or as I call it, SF, especially SF Alpha), and you wouldn't notice. If you replaced Mario, Link, and Pikachu with freaking 20 different generic Ryu clones like SF does with their characters, sales would drop significantly. No one wants to play as original created characters in Smash.
Character driven has nothing to do with it really. Street Fighter has its iconic fighting characters like Ryu, Chun-Li, and Guile. In fact, the absence of most of the SF2 cast is one reason why SF3 bombed. If that doesn't mean that characters don't play a role in a game's appeal, nothing will. Likewise, MvC has as much crossover appeal as Smash Bros. - though it could never reel in the same numbers. Then there's BlazBlue which has truly pushed how stories are told in fighting games and making it an important aspect of the game.
And Sakurai isn't lazy, especially when compared to Crap-con. He worked 20 hours a day, 6 days a week on Melee.
I'll agree with you on this, but that decision to put so much time into it was not very smart. Also, I think we can both agree that the numbers don't mean much if there's not much quality to them.

Also, unlike SF-related games, Smash comes out every 5 years; you get a new SF-related game seemingly ever year, with multiple re-releases for each game (because Crap-com is too cheap to give you the full game). Also, replacing, re-adding, and replacing characters in games like SF is done for marketing's sake, and to keep the roster "fresh". If they wanted to give you the full game, they'd just fix up the old characters from previous games, and add them in, too. If you release a game every year, people get bored of the same roster. If you release a game every 5 years, you don't have that issue.
Why don't you take a look at the years each of the SF series came out.

  • Street Fighter (1987)
  • Street Fighter II series (1991)
  • Street Fighter Alpha series (1995)
  • Street Fighter EX series (1996)
  • Versus series (1996)
  • Street Fighter III series (1997)
  • Street Fighter IV series (2008)

And being cheap has nothing to do with the updates. Making games takes time and resources, especially time. They can't always get games out where the "full game" is available. Then there's also the fact that updates address balance issues and there's only so much playtesting that can be done in studio. At least they're aware that a competitive game requires balance issues to be addressed, and we're bound to see this with Smash 4.

It's not being lazy; it's being efficient, and maximizing the value, size, and diversity of the roster. On top of that, unlike a lot of SF games, the physics and gameplay (the basics aside) are totally different in each smash bros. games. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl are all completely different, to the point where each of them have different engines and way different game speed and gravity. You turn on most SF games, including any Vs. game, and they have the same engines, about the same gameplay, and they "feel" the exact same. It's almost Madden-esk, in a sense, especially with the multiple versions of games like SFII, III, IV, and now even MvC3.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all. No two games in any fighting game series play alike. Ask any longtime player, casual or competitive. They change just as much as the Smash games do. I can't play Street Fighter 2 like 3, 4, or even Alpha. The combos, mechanics, etc. are all different. Likewise, Marvel 2 and 3 simply cannot be compared.
 

ChronoBound

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1. So Mewtwo, Mega Man, K. Rool, and Ridley are still the top 4? Or did I get my sources mixed up? :(
You are thinking of the West. Ridley, K. Rool, Mega Man, and Mewtwo are the Top 4 in the West.

In Japan its like:

S:
Mewtwo
Roy

B:
Mega Man
Palutena
K. Rool
Shulk

C:
Dixie Kong
Chrom
Zoroark
 

Diddy Kong

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@ John:Samus is under Link.

@Manly: I disagree with some of the cuts as well. But agree that the community is overly conservative with cuts, and think it's likely we see some again.

Wouldn't like Lucas and Falco gone tbh. But agree that Lucas and Ness merged would make a sexy character. Same with Toon Link and Link.

Similariy, what about Sheik and Lucario? Impa could easily be a mix of both. Killing yet another 2 birds in a stone and fill up the Zelda roster a little bit.

Don't really like your 3rd party choices though. Would even prefer them keeping just Sonic and Snake over them. But would cut Sonic easily for a Namco character or MegaMan. 2 or 3 spots is enough for 3rd parties I feel.

Still think that if Fire Emblem gets 3 characters, I don't see a reason for cutting a StarFox character, or merging Ness and Lucas. Would perhaps even cut Ike for Chrom, if we'd have to be extremely radical in changing things. And Ike is one of my favorite newcomers.

So personally what I'd change on your roster (making it radically different instead of adding as many newcomers as possible) :

Mewtwo above Lucario
Impa instead of Sheik as an own rep
Cut Ike for Chrom (or keep Ike which I'd prefer but for change's sake, I'll resort to this) - or re-add Falco and Lucas back again.
All 3rd party characters cut for Snake, Namco rep / MegaMan and ugh.. Sonic (having to be realistic)
Solo Diddy Kong, even though Dixie is awesome
Probably no Ridley - though would love to see how he'd work. Give or take.
Isaac over Shulk (personal choice)
Toad over Paper Mario (personal choice, both are cool though)

And that would be about it.

Personally out of all optimism I am hoping for all of Brawl's cast to return minus Sheik. But if we'd have to take a look at realistic cuts and a not-so-much-upgraded roster in size yet still a few more new faces I'd think above would be my choice mixed with realism.

But it's pretty much an if, if situation.
 

Diddy Kong

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Would like them out as well. But am not expecting it honestly.
 

ChronoBound

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Also, I will note I have seen more people warming up to the ideas of Miis among the Japanese fanbase.
 

Diddy Kong

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@ Phazon: Thanks bro, doing my best.

Still dislike the Miis. Keep them in the Wii titles, not Smash Bros. Maybe a Mii / Wii game related stage but other than that I prefer them to stay far out of Smash, as with Brawl.
 

Moon Monkey

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You are thinking of the West. Ridley, K. Rool, Mega Man, and Mewtwo are the Top 4 in the West.

In Japan its like:

S:
Mewtwo
Roy

B:
Mega Man
Palutena
K. Rool
Shulk

C:
Dixie Kong
Chrom
Zoroark
Arceus Christ! There is a tier list for speculated newcomers!?
E3 2013 please hurry
 

Dark Phazon

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Yeah, I feel that's likely to change with this entry. Maybe this will become a trend in future Smash games, letting successful companies help with the balancing of the game. I agree on the fanbase being overly conservative.

Pic related:




Is that pic real? did Miyamoto really say that?

Well, that's about all we CAN do man. I mean, unless you wanna have boring discussion about Sales and Popularity polls which are just as biased and flawed as conceptual ideas. At least with the latter you can put yourself in the developer's seat and get an idea of what must be considered when making a game. Especially if you use other successful games as reference.

Really, if you sit down and think about it, 90% of our speculation, be it polls, sales or concepts, is just a shot in the dark, at least until we get a trailer to go off of.
:phone:

:phone:
 

The Black mage

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Mii's as a background character in a stage sounds nice, though. Like, those characters in the animal crossing stage smashville.
 

Johnknight1

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The Tales fanboys and actual fans should be realistic: they got next to no shot at landing a playable character in Smash. The only Namco character with a shot is Pac-Man, and he has a good shot.
what exactly makes Deoxys unfeasible in your eyes, I was a supporter of it back in Brawl times because its form Changes made for a cool concept, where each special would transform it into one of its four forms.
As a pre-Brawl supporter, I'm gonna tell it to you straight: Deoxys isn't as original as you think. Take away the transformations, which would probably do minimal difference, and you got very little original concepts to work with that haven't already been used, specifically on Mewtwo, Lucario, Ness, Lucas, and Zelda.
 

FishSlappinDance

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@Chrono

Thanks for clearing that up! :awesome:

@Mage

I would not oppose having some Nintendo Land/Wii *whatever* themed stage (much like Pictochat in Brawl) and have Miis as background characters.

But as playable characters, it would really be a WTF? character and definitely would surprise many, myself included.
 
D

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1. I don't think Sakurai cares about how relevant a franchise is.
2. Clones gradually get decloned.
3. Re-adding Falco and Toon Link is a lot easier than making a character from scratch. According to Microsoft, it costs 4 times as much to add a new client than keep an old client. That same principle can be used in something artistic like creating video games. Also, Falco is only a few moves away from being totally original.
But that seems absurd, you still have characters with similar moves rather than very original diverse characters, and the progress of finally getting a unique character is long, look at Luigi for example, he still has ways to go before he's totally different from Mario.

Now compare this to the BlazBlue or Guilty Gear casts where EVERY character is very different from the rest of the cast. No two characters play ANYTHING alike.

But one of the 4 cut characters was original. Also, all the returning Melee clones became more original. Lucas has literally 3 moves that Ness has. And like I said, creating something from scratch is harder, more expensive, and more time consuming than merely fixing something up.

Yes, but at the same time, being to conservative from game to game makes the games get stale, likewise, you begin to really limit your options for future installments when you try too hard to make the "perfect" game that satisfies all the fans.

Sakurai doesn't care about percentages of the roster, but the quality of the characters. Also, Mewtwo is the most wanted character not in Brawl. He's wanted more than newcomers. Sales will suffer if Sakurai doesn't re-add him.
You mean like the sales for WindWaker suffered? I think this is an exaggeration, a character omission is no reason to skip out on a game, you can always pick up a new one. Any fan who thinks this way needs to stop being so entitled.

This is kinda my opinion with the Lucas/Ness thing: it's kinda like merging Link with Marth. Just because they have swords doesn't make them the same. They both are better separate. Plus, the likelihood of this being broken is extremely high, especially since they can approach you two different ways. The fact that the IC have the same moves is what makes it work so well.
Comparing Link to Marth is absurd though, they both play VERY differently, and there's no way to make them "fuse" properly. Lucas and Ness on the other hand, both have the same playstyle and both are rather mediocre, not only that, but their move work well with each other, so why not replace the weaknesses of one, with the strengths of the other to make them a decent character?

Also, on Diddy and Dixie, why not explore a different concept than the IC, one where they use different moves and can have Duo Partner moves? There's always room for creativity...


Smash Bros. isn't just a fighting game, unlike BlazBlue, SF, Tekken, SC, etc. It is Smash Bros. It's part party game, part shooter, and it is totally character-driven. Also, Sakurai has stated that he felt Snake and Sonic were "incredible" additions to the roster, and added a lot of uniqueness to the roster.
"shooter??"

Yeah, and other 3rd parties can be incredible too, Link was an incredible addition to the Soul Calibur Roster, but he had his unfortunate leave eventually... It's a possibility, there's not reason to omit it.


Also, unlike SF-related games, Smash comes out every 5 years; you get a new SF-related game seemingly ever year, with multiple re-releases for each game (because Crap-com is too cheap to give you the full game). Also, replacing, re-adding, and replacing characters in games like SF is done for marketing's sake, and to keep the roster "fresh". If they wanted to give you the full game, they'd just fix up the old characters from previous games, and add them in, too. If you release a game every year, people get bored of the same roster. If you release a game every 5 years, you don't have that issue.
I don't think time is an issue... People are getting tired of Zelda and that comes out every 5 years, and the reason people are tired of it is because of the lack of diversity and ingenuity in the games (plus the difficulty drop).

Well here's the thing: Smash Bros is character driven. SF, MvC, BB, they could all basically have playable walking turds clones of Ryu (or as I call it, SF, especially SF Alpha), and you wouldn't notice. If you replaced Mario, Link, and Pikachu with freaking 20 different generic Ryu clones like SF does with their characters, sales would drop significantly. No one wants to play as original created characters in Smash.

It's not being lazy; it's being efficient, and maximizing the value, size, and diversity of the roster. On top of that, unlike a lot of SF games, the physics and gameplay (the basics aside) are totally different in each smash bros. games. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl are all completely different, to the point where each of them have different engines and way different game speed and gravity. You turn on most SF games, including any Vs. game, and they have the same engines, about the same gameplay, and they "feel" the exact same. It's almost Madden-esk, in a sense, especially with the multiple versions of games like SFII, III, IV, and now even MvC3.
I get the feeling you don't play other fighters. Street Fighter 2 and the expansions all play very different from the Alpha series, which all have very different mechanics from the SF3 series, which all play opposite from the SF4 series. If you stop and play all four of them, you'll notice there are actually more differences among the four than there are in the Smash Bros games. The Super and AE and Turbo, and so on, all all arcade expansions because remember, these games come to arcades first and consoles second, arcade machines can be expanded on just fine, but in order to release the updates you need to either make it DLC (which they do) or make an expansion (which they also do), also, they're rather fair in the pricing, charging around $25 for the games rather than full price, if you wait a bit you can find it for $12. It's really less of a Jew move than Gamefreak releasing two opposite Pokemon versions side by side, only to release the polished and complete expansion game 2 years later.

The same thing can be said about BlazBlue, not only are future installments added for the story, Arcsys also takes the time to make sure each game plays differently from the last revamping all the characters and adding new ones in. One of BB's biggest selling points is the story, Arcsys could very well just bank on that and the fanservice, add a couple newbies in and call it a day, but they actually take the time to add, remove and even change mechanics withing each installment.

Also, SF has less clones than Smash.

Ryu = Fox, Falco=Ken, Wolf=Akuma

SF adds Dan as a Joke and Gouken as a Falcofied clone of Akuma... sort of, not really, but w/e.

Then in Smash you also have:
Link>Y/Toon Link
Ness>Lucas
Falcon>Ganon
etc...

Smash actually has more clones.

Lastly, MvC IS character driven. It's another All-Star Mashup, I don't understand how it differs from Smash aside from the fact that Smash isn't an arcade game.
 

Diddy Kong

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You know what is not being discussed often enough: how to make Luigi just about... 100% different from Mario.

Brawl did it's best, in a bad way really. Cause Luigi should've been the one with a new Down B. :rolleyes:
 

Big-Cat

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The Tales fanboys and actual fans should be realistic: they got next to no shot at landing a playable character in Smash. The only Namco character with a shot is Pac-Man, and he has a good shot.
Pray tell then how he would play because I have yet to see anything that makes me want to go "DO WANT!". I find him as a very boring character whereas the likes of Lloyd or Jin would be more unique.
 

Arcadenik

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Some Japanese fanbase observations updates:
- Nothing much has changed.
- A lot more requests for Pac-Man

There is a lot of opposition to Pac-Man, particularly from those who want Tales character (of which they absolutely cannot agree on who should rep the series and are at each others throats on this subject). They use the typical points against Pac-Man (boring, bland) and say Tales is the series Namco is known for it, therefore it should get the guest spot for a Namco character.

Found a discussion about cuts. Most of the people think Ike and Lucario are goners (and that Chrom and Zoroark will replace them). Snake and Sonic are next in line in terms of beliefs about being cut. I have also seen people say Toon Link, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and ROB could be cut.
It's just what I said last month or two... Assuming Pac-Man gets 30% of the votes and Tales gets 70% of the votes, Pac-Man still gets the majority of the votes because the Tales characters are not agreed upon and so each Tales character gets less than 30%.

Also in my roster, Falco is cut instead of Wolf because Wolf is a lot different from Fox than Falco is (my opinion) and R.O.B. stays. I cut the others and in their places, I added Chrom, Zoroark, and Pokemon Trainer Gold.

:phone:
 

Moon Monkey

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You know what is not being discussed often enough: how to make Luigi just about... 100% different from Mario.

Brawl did it's best, in a bad way really. Cause Luigi should've been the one with a new Down B. :rolleyes:
Give him a vacuum. It can be a mix between a reverse F.L.U.D.D (meaning brings opponents closer) and Mr.G&W's Bucket (meaning Luigi could store 3 energy projectiles and then fire a shot equaling up the damage).
 

ChronoBound

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It's just what I said last month or two... Assuming Pac-Man gets 30% of the votes and Tales gets 70% of the votes, Pac-Man still gets the majority of the votes because the Tales characters are not agreed upon and so each Tales character gets less than 30%

:phone:
Yeah, its that pretty much. Tales characters are asked for much more than Pac-Man, but Pac-Man may have a plurality overall in terms of Namco characters due to the strong divide amongst the Tales fans.

Also, a terminology lesson. When you are 30% and are the most voted, you are not the "majority", that is called a plurality, since 30% is simply the largest minority.
 

FlareHabanero

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Tales having no clear cut is probably why the Japanese fanbase is moving onto Pac-man, whether people like it or not. At least with Pac-man there is one definitive choice, and an iconic one too.
 

Diddy Kong

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The Japanese probably say Ike will be cut cause of how badly PoR and RD did in Japan. They'd just rather see Chrom instead probably. Ike as a whole, felt he was also more based towards the western audience. Not only in Brawl perse, but also in Fire Emblem. Just guessing why they'd want him gone. I do agree with them that Chrom comes at just the ideal moment to consider him as a Ike replacement though. So I can't blame them.

I'd also rather not choose between Falco and Wolf. I like them both, and feel that if they just tweak some of their specials they are fine. Different Final Smashes could also work. And tbh, I probably only say this cause I really want DKC to have 4 reps. So 3 StarFox reps would balance things out a little. :awesome:
 

Croph

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Give him a vacuum. It can be a mix between a reverse F.L.U.D.D (meaning brings opponents closer) and Mr.G&W's Bucket (meaning Luigi could store 3 energy projectiles and then fire a shot equaling up the damage).
Poltergust sounds like a unique idea. You can suck people in! And maybe even Mario's hat! jk But what about the different elements it can shoot? Like ice, fire, etc? Maybe for a FS?
 

Diddy Kong

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Combining specials has worked for some characters for a Final Smash, so why not with Luigi? Poltergust would set him apart a lot from Mario, but I also think he could use a few other moves different from him. Then again, he's probably fine when he gets this new Down B.

Also, IF they cut Ike I hope they'll include Paris for his place. And then BOOM! Next Fire Emblem is Paris' story.
 
D

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On PacMan, dude is boring and I STILL have yet to see an appealing moveset.

On Wolf, I never understand why people wanna cut Wolf over Falco, especially under the pretense that Wolf is a clone. When I heard JonTron say that **** on GameGrumps I wanted to slap him silly. Then again, JonTron says a lot of stupid **** on Game Grumps.

Personally out of all optimism I am hoping for all of Brawl's cast to return minus Sheik. But if we'd have to take a look at realistic cuts and a not-so-much-upgraded roster in size yet still a few more new faces I'd think above would be my choice mixed with realism.

But it's pretty much an if, if situation.
Well, a lot of the changes you made man, were deliberate changes I made in mine to make mine different from the ones I see around here, hahaha. Also I can see Ike and Chrom both getting in despite what other people say. Ike can be a heavyweight, Chrom can't.

As a pre-Brawl supporter, I'm gonna tell it to you straight: Deoxys isn't as original as you think. Take away the transformations, which would probably do minimal difference, and you got very little original concepts to work with that haven't already been used, specifically on Mewtwo, Lucario, Ness, Lucas, and Zelda.
What are you talking about? Even without the transformations, that thing has tentacles that change shape for arms, that thing has about as much potential as KOS-MOS with her Arsenal of Diverse Weapons. Not to mention it's a Psychic type with access to moves like Psycho Boost, Phych Up and PsyShock. In addition, it also comes from Space, meaning it can have Space Based moves...
 

kikaru

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Exactly who is in debate among Tales characters in Japan? In the west it seems like the obvious choice would be Lloyd Irving as Tales of Symphonia on the Gamecube was the most successful of all the Tales games on Nintendo consoles.

Edit: I guess Asbel would be one of them?
 

Diddy Kong

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He's Luigi. He doesn't need explanation. :awesome: :luigi:

Manly, I respect your idea to go the different route. And always felt that Chrom would work very well as an 'inbetween' character of Ike and Marth. Medium weight, medium speed. Kinda like a slightly faster Brawl's Link, with a bit less power if you want a comparision.
 

Diddy Kong

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Welllll... He'd at least need an explanation to be in Smash's roster. :awesome:

No, I don't support Waluigi. Not for this game at least. Next one: sure.
 

The Black mage

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Regna Ferox
3DS FC
2492-4215-1228
Waluigi hates this.

But with all honesty, Pac-man really aint a bright choice for smash, because:

1. All he really ever done was eat floaty balls that give points
2. It is hard to make proper moves for him
3. He aint mrs. pac-man.
4. Pac-man is hard to play. ( irrelevant )
 

Moon Monkey

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
7,897
Location
The Moon
NNID
Mr.MoonMonkey
Switch FC
SW-0550-3588-6412
Waluigi hates this.

But with all honesty, Pac-man really aint a bright choice for smash, because:

1. All he really ever done was eat floaty balls that give points
2. It is hard to make proper moves for him
3. He aint mrs. pac-man.
4. Pac-man is hard to play. ( irrelevant )
Have you played any of the Pac-man World games????
 
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