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Johnknight1

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Is Zozoark STILL getting a shot into the game?
Considering the new pokemon is out this year
Surely Sakurai knew about the pokemon ahead of time.
Zoroark's chances current in any sane person's mind are "I don't know." Still, it seems like Victini's chances are gone, Genesect is standing on his last legs, and we got a few potential Pokémon that are playable character contenders. Still, it does look fairly certain that Zoroark's dominance without competition is over, and that his playable character outlook is less positive.

And for the record, Sakurai definitely knew about this ahead of time, and probably already knows a few of the "key" (mascot?) new Pokémon for Generation VI. If a new "Lucario" super mascot and icon that absolutely "fits" Smash comes along, though, you can pretty much kiss Zoroark's chances "good bye."

But yeah, this doesn't seem to effect the chances of Mewtwo and Lucario very much (unless the bat out of hell chance we get 2 new Pokémon), which is pretty much a great thing for Smash Bros, especially if you are a fan of bigger rosters! :grin:
 

Moon Monkey

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What makes you say that? It's very likely Sakurai has known about X&Y before us, and it's also possible that he's gotten a sneak preview at all the new Pokemon.
Let's all keep in mind that this the same Masahiro Sakurai that didn't even know he was working on SSB4 until Nintendo's E3 2011 press conference... So he could be just learning about gen 6 as we are.
 
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There is also the chance that none of the new Gen 6 Pokemon would be feasible, kind of like how he didn't view any of the 2nd Gen (other than Pichu as a clone of Pikachu; you can see where that went.) and possibly the 3rd Gen (if "pra_mai" was Plusle and Minun, then they were only "feasible" as Pichu replacements) as feasible.
Lucario was kind of a tier all on his own; he had popularity, he had feasibility (A kung-fu jackal with mystic energy? Easy to implement.), and best of all, he was and STILL IS marketable. He withstood the test of time whereas many others have not.

I can't really say the same for any 5th Gen. Closest would be Zoroark, but popularity is rather iffy, and the whole Illusion gimmick could be seen as unfeasible to implement.
Victini honestly would have been a safe bet for "Lucario Tier" had it not ended up being just a flavor of the month Zoroark alternative.
Genesect is the 2nd closest, although its time in the spotlight could potentially be usurped by the concept of one of the 6th Gen Pokemon, turning Genesect into yet ANOTHER flavor of the month Zoroark alternative. (Sad, I rather liked Genesect....in fact, I supported Genesect before it was mainstream. [/hipster])
Despite this, none of the three became nearly as marketable as Lucario. Zoroark tried, but failed miserably to the point that Lucario HIMSELF became marketed more.

However, time will eventually reveal all.
 

Johnknight1

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I do too think that the roster by now is finalized and there just touchin upnon the gane tweaking etc: trophies.
The Brawl roster was largely finalized about a year before Brawl's development was complete. There is no way in hell either of these 2 forthcoming games is 1 year away from being released. At best, these two games are about 2 years away from being released, and possibly up to 4 years away from being released.
Anyone else think there could be a Sm4sh Nintendo Direct on Jan 31st. Witu very little news no pics/trailers/peeks/gameplay but a announcement of the Dojo?
We're probably not going to get a Smash WiiU/3DS trailer or gameplay pictures until E3 or a later date, unless a major Nintendo event happens before E3. Still, we may very well get some info about these 2 forthcoming smash bros games at the Nintendo Direct.
 

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Let's all keep in mind that this the same Masahiro Sakurai that didn't even know he was working on SSB4 until Nintendo's E3 2011 press conference... So he could be just learning about gen 6 as we are.
You are mixing two events as one:

Sakurai didn't know that he was doing a Smash Bros. game at E3 2005, not 2011.

During E3 2011, he was still busy with Kid Icarus: Uprising, but already knew that he would do Super Smash Bros. 4 next.
 

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If the Nintendo Direct does come true, the most new information I could see us getting would be SSB4's actual name. Anything more than that is pushing it.

And thinking over the idea of Sakurai not selecting a Gen. 2 Pokemon until deciding to use clones in Melee, that basically confirms two things: that Sakurai could very well skip over a Gen. 6 Pokemon, but that he'll undoubtedly look them over to examine their suitability as characters before making the call.

:phone:
 

Johnknight1

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@ BKupa
We could get some information about gameplay, the direction, or maybe a few basic concepts of these 2 new games as well. Although to be entirely honest, I doubt we'll know either titles until E3 2013 at the earliest.
There is also the chance that none of the new Gen 6 Pokemon would be feasible, kind of like how he didn't view any of the 2nd Gen (other than Pichu as a clone of Pikachu; you can see where that went.) and possibly the 3rd Gen (if "pra_mai" was Plusle and Minun, then they were only "feasible" as Pichu replacements) as feasible.
Lucario was kind of a tier all on his own; he had popularity, he had feasibility (A kung-fu jackal with mystic energy? Easy to implement.), and best of all, he was and STILL IS marketable. He withstood the test of time whereas many others have not.
A few hundred Pokémon are feasible in the sense that they have movesets that could work, and have some originality. Feasibly popular and unique in regards to smash bros, however, narrows the field down considerably.

After that, we have a much narrower field, which gets even narrower considering the only Pokémon with a considerable pro-smash bros playable character fanbases that aren't Gen V or Gen VI Pokémon have already been playable (Deoxys fanbase has largely died, and Plusle and Minun's fanbase was never really much more than a small group).

As for how the Gen V Pokémon chances goes, Zoroark at least is pretty well known, and the only one with much reception to, as well as general conscencus that Zoroark would work very well in Smash. Victini's chances seem to be next to nil, and Genesect seems to be on its' last leg in terms off chances.
 
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I know this is seriously off-topic, but please help this girl.

She is seriously considering suicide and her blogs reflects that. She needs all the help that she can get and needs to be encouraged to get help instead of taking away a very important life to her family and friends.
 
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But yeah, this doesn't seem to effect the chances of Mewtwo and Lucario very much (unless the bat out of hell chance we get 2 new Pokémon), which is pretty much a great thing for Smash Bros, especially if you are a fan of bigger rosters! :grin:
Agreed on Zoroark, it's too tough to tell. Though I tend to lean toward a "NO DICE" now.

Anyway, imo Mewtwo and Lucario are competing for the 4th slot.

There is also the chance that none of the new Gen 6 Pokemon would be feasible,
C'mon man, do you really think this? Well, before I criticize you I should confirm what you mean by "feasible."

If you think the New PosterChild is gonna be an armless imp, then you're being too imperceptive.


@SmashFan

I don't wanna start a ****storm over this, but I've always been of the opinion that if someone wants to commit suicide for whatever reason, they should just do it, especially when they post about it on the internet for attention. We're on a planet with limited resources and a population of over 7 billion and growing. There are honestly people out there who have to deal with much more serious and difficult issues yet still find the courage and strength to wake up every day. One less foolish person on this planet is of no serious loss, I know it's cold and I don't wanna sound like an edgy ******, but it's how I truly feel, life is given to people to be used to it's fullest, if people can't appreciate that, then they might as well just step off the stage.

Now, I'm not gonna push anyone to commit suicide, but I'm also not gonna stop them.
 

Johnknight1

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Agreed on Zoroark, it's too tough to tell. Though I tend to lean toward a "NO DICE" now.
I'm undecided. But as it stands, I think Zoroark has pretty much depleted his Gen V competition in terms of popularity as a smash bros. playable character, much like how Lucario did with Gen IV, although obviously to much less positive reception (nearly everyone liked Lucario, whereas opinion on Zoroark is very mixed).
Anyway, imo Mewtwo and Lucario are competing for the 4th slot.
Sakurai never does competing number of slots. And if he does, he doesn't do it between characters of the same franchise. The only instances I can think of was when Sonic possibly got in over Mewtwo (and Roy?) after he was added late, and the Ice Climbers getting over several retro characters (that didn't work or didn't fit the game anyhow).

Besides, both characters are a lot easier to make than newcomers, and are both fairly certain to return.
 

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He tried to make a Johto Trainer, but it was far too time consuming. So Pichu was chosen instead, and Pichu even made Sakurai look back on the prospect of clones. It all depends if there are worthy characters within the new Pokemon. Which I think there will be actually. But it all depends of coarse. With SO MANY generations out now, I think it's due time to let pure popularity and fandemand decide which Pokemon to use.
 

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You are mixing two events as one:

Sakurai didn't know that he was doing a Smash Bros. game at E3 2005, not 2011.

During E3 2011, he was still busy with Kid Icarus: Uprising, but already knew that he would do Super Smash Bros. 4 next.
Oh... Well this is awkward... LOL!

Well with the E3 2005 event, my point still stands. Sakurai seems to be kept out of the loop on some things.
 
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Sakurai never does competing number of slots. And if he does, he doesn't do it between characters of the same franchise. The only instances I can think of was when Sonic possibly got in over Mewtwo (and Roy?) after he was added late, and the Ice Climbers getting over several retro characters (that didn't work or didn't fit the game anyhow).

Besides, both characters are a lot easier to make than newcomers, and are both fairly certain to return.
Ah, I understand where you're coming from. I guess I should clarify, in my mind, those two are competing for the fourth slot.

I personally believe we're not getting more than 5 Pokemon slots, and if the 6thGen gets in, then it comes down to either Lucario or Mewtwo. I lean more toward the former being the likely entry.

I think the Roster has already been picked out, I'm just playing with probability man.

Oh... Well this is awkward... LOL!

Well with the E3 2005 event, my point still stands. Sakurai seems to be kept out of the loop on some things.
I think Sakurai was kept out of the loop during E3 2005 because Brawl seemed to have been a last-minute decision. This doesn't seem to be the case with Gen 6, this has clearly been planned and worked on for quite a while.
 

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If Chikorita, Cyndaquil and Totodile and their evolution lines where once considered feasible- so would the new starters and their lines be. Easily. So yes, a 6th gen rep would probably be considered. Maybe this'll mean that we might see more replacement this time even? Jigglypuff could be gone now for all we know.
 
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If Chikorita, Cyndaquil and Totodile and their evolution lines where once considered feasible- so would the new starters and their lines be. Easily. So yes, a 6th gen rep would probably be considered. Maybe this'll mean that we might see more replacement this time even? Jigglypuff could be gone now for all we know.
The only way we'll ever see Jigglypuff gone is if Smash Bros. gets a reboot.
 

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Dunno. Many felt we where close to losing her in Brawl... Rather not see it happen either, but don't want Smash 4 swarming with Pokemon either, unless we set Poké Balls on Very High. :rolleyes:
 
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Dunno. Many felt we where close to losing her in Brawl... Rather not see it happen either, but don't want Smash 4 swarming with Pokemon either, unless we set Poké Balls on Very High. :rolleyes:
I see what you mean, well I suppose it's possible, but very unlikely imo, she's in the same Tier as Ness, Falcon, G&W, Shiek and Marth. Smash Exclusive Icons.
 

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Sakurai never does competing number of slots. And if he does, he doesn't do it between characters of the same franchise. The only instances I can think of was when Sonic possibly got in over Mewtwo (and Roy?) after he was added late, and the Ice Climbers getting over several retro characters (that didn't work or didn't fit the game anyhow).
This is why character selection is not as simplistic as most may think. The reasons for this and that character being chosen are truly case by case.

He tried to make a Johto Trainer, but it was far too time consuming. So Pichu was chosen instead, and Pichu even made Sakurai look back on the prospect of clones. It all depends if there are worthy characters within the new Pokemon. Which I think there will be actually. But it all depends of coarse. With SO MANY generations out now, I think it's due time to let pure popularity and fandemand decide which Pokemon to use.
Source?
 
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C'mon man, do you really think this? Well, before I criticize you I should confirm what you mean by "feasible."

If you think the New PosterChild is gonna be an armless imp, then you're being too imperceptive.
Have you not been paying attention?
There are plenty of Pokemon within the 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen that would be seen as "feasible" to someone like you or me, but that is not the case with Sakurai.
The best option he could think of? A pre-evolution of an existing character, and possibly a pair of Pokemon SIMILAR to that existing character.
It's not like popularity was an issue, I mean, he flat out says on Deoxys' Dojo page that it was a popular Pokemon, and even Scizor's trophy in Melee refers to it as a "popular catch among collectors".
So what prevented them if they were supposedly very popular? It had to have been due to how Sakurai percieved their feasibility, and how they would work.
I can't speak for Scizor, but Deoxys' transformation gimmick can easily be seen as hard to implement. And before you bring up Sheilda, it's far different to have to cycle through 6 different models (Normal w/arms, Normal w/one arm one set of tentacles (x2), Normal with two sets of tentacles, Attack, Defense, Speed) depending on the course of action, and even if Deoxys were to share the same gimmick as Sheilda, that's 4 characters within the data just for ONE Pokemon.

In a similar way, Zoroark can be percieved as unfeasible due to its special gimmick involving its Illusion power. It could be that Sakurai has no idea how to incorporate that, so it wouldn't be worth the work to try to force it in. Unlike say, Pikachu's Static ability, Illusion is what defines Zoroark. Meaning, without Illusions, you might as well not have Zoroark.

Lucario really had NO gimmick other than its use of Aura. At which, Aura is just a mystical energy not unlike Ki, Chakra, or The Force. It's not really unfeasible to make a kung-fu jackal use the mystical energy in its attacks if that's what it is capable of.

With the "poster child" of the 6th Gen, there is a chance (note, I did not say it was a high chance, just that such a chance EXISTS) that it either has an improper body type (such as other popular Pokemon like Lugia, who was 20th in Sakurai's Pre-Melee poll in Japan) or it has a defining gimmick that is unfeasible to implement (such as Deoxys' formes and Zoroark's Illusion). To argue against there being a chance of that is truly being imperceptive.
For all we know, the "poster child" could be some giant slug or a ghost koala that is known for switching body parts with anyone around it.

We have no idea how its going to play out, so to assume it will automatically work out without attributing the possibility that it won't based on very little information is being blissfully and ignorantly optimisitic.
 

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Deoxys would have been a character who changes its stance (forme) with a Down+B.
 

Diddy Kong

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I see what you mean, well I suppose it's possible, but very unlikely imo, she's in the same Tier as Ness, Falcon, G&W, Shiek and Marth. Smash Exclusive Icons.
Ness and Falcon = yes. But: they are also the most important characters of their franchise. They are the faces of their whole series, and even though they're lucky to get in, they're there to stay. (many people feared for them pre-Brawl though!)

Game & Watch = yes. But he's also a retro character, and one quite important even. His moveset in general represent his whole era of gaming.

Marth = no. Head character of Fire Emblem, most appearances in the series, and even a retro addition in Melee (Japan only though). Plenty of recent appearances as well. In other words: Marth = KING.

Sheik = no. Only a transformation character to Zelda, a one-off character in a 15 year old game, and has no moveset potential of herself outside of Vanish. Zelda has developed her personality FAR BEYOND transforming into Sheik, especially in her roles AFTER Sheik's appearances (WW, TP, and SS especially) and was always overshadowed by her. Her moveset might be popular (moreso in Melee than Brawl- nobody plays her in Brawl), but it's generic as ****. Also the last revealed character on the Dojo and Sakurai even felt the need of explaining her re-addition. :rolleyes:

The only REAL Smash Exclusive Icons imo are: Ness, Falcon, Jigglypuff and the retro's: Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. (Pit to pre-Uprising). Though does this really mean they will stay forever? I don't really think so, and if Smash indeed gets a reboot: I expect them all gone.

@ Kuma: Don't have source on the Johto Trainer but it should be somewhere. I think Chrono might have it.
 
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Have you not been paying attention?
There are plenty of Pokemon within the 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen that would be seen as "feasible" to someone like you or me, but that is not the case with Sakurai.
The best option he could think of? A pre-evolution of an existing character, and possibly a pair of Pokemon SIMILAR to that existing character.
It's not like popularity was an issue, I mean, he flat out says on Deoxys' Dojo page that it was a popular Pokemon, and even Scizor's trophy in Melee refers to it as a "popular catch among collectors".
So what prevented them if they were supposedly very popular? It had to have been due to how Sakurai percieved their feasibility, and how they would work.
I can't speak for Scizor, but Deoxys' transformation gimmick can easily be seen as hard to implement. And before you bring up Sheilda, it's far different to have to cycle through 6 different models (Normal w/arms, Normal w/one arm one set of tentacles (x2), Normal with two sets of tentacles, Attack, Defense, Speed) depending on the course of action, and even if Deoxys were to share the same gimmick as Sheilda, that's 4 characters within the data just for ONE Pokemon.

In a similar way, Zoroark can be percieved as unfeasible due to its special gimmick involving its Illusion power. It could be that Sakurai has no idea how to incorporate that, so it wouldn't be worth the work to try to force it in. Unlike say, Pikachu's Static ability, Illusion is what defines Zoroark. Meaning, without Illusions, you might as well not have Zoroark.

Lucario really had NO gimmick other than its use of Aura. At which, Aura is just a mystical energy not unlike Ki, Chakra, or The Force. It's not really unfeasible to make a kung-fu jackal use the mystical energy in its attacks if that's what it is capable of.

With the "poster child" of the 6th Gen, there is a chance (note, I did not say it was a high chance, just that such a chance EXISTS) that it either has an improper body type (such as other popular Pokemon like Lugia, who was 20th in Sakurai's Pre-Melee poll in Japan) or it has a defining gimmick that is unfeasible to implement (such as Deoxys' formes and Zoroark's Illusion). To argue against there being a chance of that is truly being imperceptive.
For all we know, the "poster child" could be some giant slug or a ghost koala that is known for switching body parts with anyone around it.

We have no idea how its going to play out, so to assume it will automatically work out without attributing the possibility that it won't based on very little information is being blissfully and ignorantly optimisitic.
So, you're defining "feasability" by the arbitrary terms of whatever is going through Sakurai's mind, that's a very cunning way of avoiding any reason in your arguments.

I feel the whole moveset deal is about as one-sided as the whole relevancy issue, weren't you the one arguing that any character could be added and that movesets didn't matter in regard to inclusion a bunch of pages back (it was in regard to Animal Crossing)? It seems to be the card that people pull when they can't think of a valid reason for why a character they don't want shouldn't be added. I should know, I'm guilty of this myself as well.

Anyway, my point was, it's pretty clear that the new Posterchild will be like the others, a Pokemon that stands out as "cool" from a child's perspective. Kids tend to like bipedal Mewtwo clones, that's likely what we'll get. Also consider that it IS a Pokemon game, and Pokemon fight, so even it if lacks arms, it will still have the means to fight, whether it's psychic Powers or what have you.


My last question is, what exactly makes Deoxys unfeasible in your eyes, I was a supporter of it back in Brawl times because its form Changes made for a cool concept, where each special would transform it into one of its four forms.
 

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You know what's the problem here in this thread and about Smash 4 speculation in general? Everyone wants to be 'that guy' who guessed most of the roster right, and try to establish their opinions on the general public as much as possible. :rolleyes:

With that said, I'll be here sitting, watching, and chilling. While ranting about Impa being superiour to Sheik, even though it might not even happen in the game.

REALITY IS A *****!
 

Johnknight1

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Ah, I understand where you're coming from. I guess I should clarify, in my mind, those two are competing for the fourth slot.

I personally believe we're not getting more than 5 Pokemon slots, and if the 6thGen gets in, then it comes down to either Lucario or Mewtwo. I lean more toward the former being the likely entry.
1. Sakurai isn't going to cap any Nintendo-owned franchises playable characters, especially Pokémon.
2. Sakurai doesn't care about "slots." It's all about playable characters, which as we all know there can be multiple playable characters per "slot." Besides that, you can just add 15 "random" "slots" to increase the "slots." As it stands, Pokémon had 4 "slots," but 6 playable characters in Brawl.
3. Again, it isn't Lucario vs. Mewtwo to Sakurai or the smash bros development team. Both characters are as different to them as Olimar and Diddy Kong.
4. Sakurai is a "creative guy," not a calculator.
I think the Roster has already been picked out, I'm just playing with probability man.
The game hasn't even been in development for 11 months, let alone a year. On top of that, this isn't even a game; it's two games! Melee and Brawl both took a bit over 2 1/2 years. The Brawl roster wasn't finished (Sonic aside) until a year before its' development was completed. By that number alone, we are over 1/2 a year away from that (Sonic probably took several months)... if this was one game. With Melee, the roster was finished about 3 months ahead of that, which, the equivalent for one smash game in development would be over 1 1/4 years from now from November 2014 to June 2017.

Seeing as how we got two games in development, these games could be up to 5 1/2 years away from release after the start of development. That means we'd get them, at the latest, in mid-2017 (let's use June). However, seeing as how the team is probably bigger, we can gauge that the earliest realistic expectation is November/December of 2014, and that would likely be just for 1 of the 2 games (if they were released at separate dates). So that's a huge amount of time frame, approximately a 3 1/2 year span where the game could be released. That's like a whole year of high school! :laugh:
I think Sakurai was kept out of the loop during E3 2005 because Brawl seemed to have been a last-minute decision. This doesn't seem to be the case with Gen 6, this has clearly been planned and worked on for quite a while.
Sakurai was informed it would be made with or without him. Brawl actually didn't begin development until that Fall. Consequently, Smash WiiU and 3DS, as confirmed by Sakurai, didn't begin development until February of 2012 (11 months ago).
 

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Sakurai was informed it would be made with or without him. Brawl actually didn't begin development until that Fall. Consequently, Smash WiiU and 3DS, as confirmed by Sakurai, didn't begin development until February of 2012 (11 months ago).
Wait a minute, I thought Sakurai said he wouldn't start working on SSB4 until after Kid Icarus Uprising launches on March 22, 2012?
 

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Wait a minute, I thought Sakurai said he wouldn't start working on SSB4 until after Kid Icarus Uprising launches on March 22, 2012?
development of Kid Icarus: Uprising was finished in February 2012, meaning that Sakurai started to work on SSB4.

the game only launched in March due to Nintendo having to make copies of the game and prepare the advertisements and all that.
 

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Wait a minute, I thought Sakurai said he wouldn't start working on SSB4 until after Kid Icarus Uprising launches on March 22, 2012?
Development finished before that... at least on his end. What was left was translating the game, bug fixes (which he doesn't cover), making the physical copies, and then shipping out the physical copies, and Sakurai doesn't work on any of that. Also, Sakurai stated he started development on Smash WiiU and 3DS sometime in February on Sakurai's Twitter.
This is why character selection is not as simplistic as most may think. The reasons for this and that character being chosen are truly case by case.
People can narrow things down to newcomer vs. veteran, clone vs. original character, but when it comes down to it, each character takes a specific amount of time that is solely unique to them. For instance, creating Peach in Smash WiiU/3DS will be easy, because she has 2 games worth of data that works fine, and at most it just needs a little fine tuning. After that, she needs new models, a few fixed hit boxes, and to be rebalanced to fit the new game and engine. After that, you're done, save for final roster balancing.

New characters take new animations (especially original characters), new models, time spent brainstorming and testing ideas for moves and movement, as well as much more diligent testing and hit boxing testing. Then you got to balance, re-balance, and re-re-balance the character along the way.

This is why I say that for every 4 characters "cut" we will likely get only 1 new character. And for every 1 new original character, we could get 7 clones to varying degrees (like what happened in Melee). Again, it's not as simple as "1 clone vs. 1 original" or "1 veteran vs. 1 newcomer."
 
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Rosterrrrsssstuff...
I guess I'll just post my Roster:

[/IMG]

This is my personal gamble on what I think will happen. I don't claim to have the best opinion, but hey, it's what I'm sticking to for the time being. I could very well be wrong, and on some aspects I hope so, but I'd rather bet against my wished so I can either be pleasantly surprised or partially correct, when this game comes out.

Oh, and I don't wanna come off as condescending man, I understand where you're coming from, and I'm taking what you say with a large degree of curiosity as you are very correct in what you are saying.


EDIT:
People can narrow things down to newcomer vs. veteran, clone vs. original character, but when it comes down to it, each character takes a specific amount of time that is solely unique to them. For instance, creating Peach in Smash WiiU/3DS will be easy, because she has 2 games worth of data that works fine, and at most it just needs a little fine tuning. After that, she needs new models, a few fixed hit boxes, and to be rebalanced to fit the new game and engine. After that, you're done, save for final roster balancing.

New characters take new animations (especially original characters), new models, time spent brainstorming and testing ideas for moves and movement, as well as much more diligent testing and hit boxing testing. Then you got to balance, re-balance, and re-re-balance the character along the way.

This is why I say that for every 4 characters "cut" we will likely get only 1 new character. And for every 1 new original character, we could get 7 clones to varying degrees (like what happened in Melee). Again, it's not as simple as "1 clone vs. 1 original" or "1 veteran vs. 1 newcomer."
One question, how come other fighters such as BlazBlue have a much easier time doing away with clones and revamping characters completely than Smash Bros then? What exactly is it about Smash that makes it so hard to balance and program properly. And I mean balance not just from a competitive point of view, but also in regard to cast diversity.

@Diddy

I know what you mean dude, and in a way we're all guilty of that. Part of then reason being is because we wanna use our prediction abilities to have an idea of how much of a chance our personal wants stand, and this often leads to bias.

I just Lyn in man, though it's unlikely to happen.
 

Johnknight1

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@ Manly
Why isn't Lucas, Falco, Toon/Young Link, Snake, Mewtwo, or Sonic there=??? Also, why would Diddy and Dixie team after Sakurai said it wouldn't work, and Diddy was already playable solo=??? Oh, and where's Samus=??? And what the heck is that next to the Pokémon and Ridley=??? Lastly, why would Simon become the Konami character over the much more relevant and popular Snake=???
You know what's the problem here in this thread and about Smash 4 speculation in general? Everyone wants to be 'that guy' who guessed most of the roster right, and try to establish their opinions on the general public as much as possible. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to be right per say, but realistic. And realistically, there's a lot of "wide open" things. There's a lot of "all but confirmed" things, but man oh man, this whole Pokémon situation leaves a whole ballpark of unknown possibilities open for happening.

There is a huge mix of all but confirmed (Zoroark is the most likely playable Gen V playable character, if we get one) and all but easy to predict (what the heck will be Gen VI's big Pokémon). I personally think it's interesting. I think it brings a lot more unique debates and questions to the table.

Of course, admitting that you don't know or that things are your limited (to you) opinions always makes these discussion and debates a lot more interesting, and a lot more honest.
 
D

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@ Manly
Why isn't Lucas, Falco, Toon/Young Link, Snake, Mewtwo, or Sonic there=??? Also, why would Diddy and Dixie team after Sakurai said it wouldn't work, and Diddy was already playable solo=??? Oh, and where's Samus=??? And what the heck is that next to the Pokémon and Ridley=??? Lastly, why would Simon become the Konami character over the much more relevant and popular Snake=???
Falco and Toon Link get replaced for being clones in favor of allowing more original faces. 3 Starfox characters strikes me as overkill with how relevant SF is now, and how poorly 3 "cloney" characters were received back in Brawl. If we're gonna cut a SF character Falco's the most logical choice. Toon Link gets cut because he's an identical clone and the effort to make him different is better placed in making Link a better character, he gets no replacement because there's no reasonable one to take his spot like with Doc Mario back in Melee.

Lucas and Ness get merged movesets since both are poor Zoning characters, and both could benefit from each other's strengths, Lucas can be an ALT costume for Ness.

In regards to cuts with the clones, we saw it happen from Melee to Brawl, I think it's fair to expect it in Smash 4, and I would prefer cuts for a variety of reasons.

Samus is there, she's that "thing" next to Ridley, I just used an image that showed both of her forms for the ambiguity.

The "thing" next to Lucario is a rather comical placeholder for the Gen6 Pokemon. Habanero said it could end up being an armless imp and thus unfeasible, so that's what I used for the image.

Mewtwo gets cut for reasons said previously, Having Pokemon take up nearly 20% of the roster with with 8 characters and 6 slots is excessive imo, that's why I feel he may not come back, same with Roy. They might be DLC though.

Diddy+Dixie is mostly something I want to happen, since DKC2 is my fave in the series and the Puppeteer/Tagteam concept is always interesting and it'd be nice to have another. I feel that just because it couldn't work once before, doesn't mean he won't attempt it again, also just because Diddy was solo in Brawl doesn't mean he can't get into THIS Smash Bros in a slightly different (perhaps more powerful) way.

Snake and Sonic are removed for two reasons 1. I want Snake back, so I'm prepping myself for his possible absence. 2. Both are guests, and we have yet to see Guests return in any other fighter ever, so there is a possibility they may not return simply due to that pretense.

Simon replaces Snake because not only is he the only dude bad enough to take his spot, but Kojima is apparently working on the Castlevania franchise so he makes a reasonable replacement.

Anyway, in regard to what you were saying about hitboxes, what is it that's so tough for Smash when compared to other fighters like BlazBlue, who constantly revamp old characters while adding new faces, or SF and MvC which do the same and also make a lot of cuts. Is this the reason we don't normally see the much desire moveset revamps on current characters, or is Sakurai just lazy?
 

Arcadenik

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You know what's the problem here in this thread and about Smash 4 speculation in general? Everyone wants to be 'that guy' who guessed most of the roster right, and try to establish their opinions on the general public as much as possible. :rolleyes:
If my post about the five stages of grief sums up one half of this thread, then this post sums up the other half.

:phone:
 

Big-Cat

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What exactly is it about Smash that makes it so hard to balance and program properly. And I mean balance not just from a competitive point of view, but also in regard to cast diversity.
I think the cast diversity thing is a product of them not properly balancing the game.

As for programming, this game, by design, is much more open ended than other fighters so it's very difficult to prevent things like glitches. However, we have had three games so finding holes MIGHT be easier.

F
Mewtwo gets cut for reasons said previously, Having Pokemon take up nearly 20% of the roster with with 8 characters and 6 slots is excessive imo, that's why I feel he may not come back, same with Roy. They might be DLC though.
While I won't criticize your roster, Manly, I would like to make a few comments.

Pokemon taking up a significant chunk of the roster is expected to happen given that there are so many of them. We still have to remember that this is a game and we shouldn't view any more differently than a game with an OC cast.

You're more likely to have more unique playstyles with pokemon over a bunch of Mario characters. This is kind of the same thing with Starfox. Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Krystal all have high potential to play differently and bring something new to the roster. Krystal would be a true poking character after all. Falco could be like an alternate take on Taokaka. Wolf could be something more feral (though he's awfully close, just change the specials). Fox might just need some updating just to give a reason for people to look at the older characters.


Anyway, in regard to what you were saying about hitboxes, what is it that's so tough for Smash when compared to other fighters like BlazBlue, who constantly revamp old characters while adding new faces, or SF and MvC which do the same and also make a lot of cuts. Is this the reason we don't normally see the much desire moveset revamps on current characters, or is Sakurai just lazy?
I think part of the problem has to do with both Nintendo and Nintendo's fanbase. As we know, fanboys are notoriously conservative with how their games should play. Meanwhile, Nintendo has issues with this because anything new they try gets *****ed at usually for all the wrong reasons which is why we're now dealing with the Mario and Zelda issues.

Another problem is Sakurai himself. Sakurai has made the foolish assumption he could balance the game all on his own in all three games. Balancing is hard as hell and just adding or taking moves is even harder to balance. This is one possible reason as to why movesets don't change radically.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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I personally think that whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there IS a plethora of bad arguments used on a regular basis on this site.

Using a moveset, conceptual ideas, or opinion in a debate doesn't prove anything, because they aren't the same from anyone. Not everyone thinks the same, and making something up doesn't exactly work either.

Debates are usually decided based on facts and intellectual reasoning, not random "could or could not happen nonsense".

The only arguments I find useful, are the ones that are logical. Most of the time, these can be hard to find here.

EDIT: This is simply in response to what Diddy had commented above
 

ChronoBound

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Some Japanese fanbase observations updates:
- Nothing much has changed.
- A lot more requests for Pac-Man

There is a lot of opposition to Pac-Man, particularly from those who want Tales character (of which they absolutely cannot agree on who should rep the series and are at each others throats on this subject). They use the typical points against Pac-Man (boring, bland) and say Tales is the series Namco is known for it, therefore it should get the guest spot for a Namco character.

Found a discussion about cuts. Most of the people think Ike and Lucario are goners (and that Chrom and Zoroark will replace them). Snake and Sonic are next in line in terms of beliefs about being cut. I have also seen people say Toon Link, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and ROB could be cut.

Some dumb Leon (Resident Evil) fanboy derailed a thread I usually look at. Reminds me of Diddy Kong in that he would never stop bringing him up. Other posters reactions to him also reminded me similar to the Impa situation here (with a lot of them saying "Im leaving now, thanks for ruining this discussion").
 
D

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You're more likely to have more unique playstyles with pokemon over a bunch of Mario characters. This is kind of the same thing with Starfox. Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Krystal all have high potential to play differently and bring something new to the roster. Krystal would be a true poking character after all. Falco could be like an alternate take on Taokaka. Wolf could be something more feral (though he's awfully close, just change the specials). Fox might just need some updating just to give a reason for people to look at the older characters.
Interesting Point of View and you're quite right. Pokemon do offer a whole lot more Diversity than say Mario or Fire Emblem characters. But still, it's a little too much to have so many Pokemon, where there are a lot of interesting and unique characters that aren't getting in because people wanna have an old face. Starfox I have to disagree on, unless we're talking about Krystal or Slippy, since their movesets are based off of Arwing Maneuvers. Also, Wolf seems like a better candidate to take after Taokaka (as both are Feral) than Falco, that hit and run playstyle may even give him more diversity from Fox.

I think part of the problem has to do with both Nintendo and Nintendo's fanbase. As we know, fanboys are notoriously conservative with how their games should play. Meanwhile, Nintendo has issues with this because anything new they try gets *****ed at usually for all the wrong reasons which is why we're now dealing with the Mario and Zelda issues.

Another problem is Sakurai himself. Sakurai has made the foolish assumption he could balance the game all on his own in all three games. Balancing is hard as hell and just adding or taking moves is even harder to balance. This is one possible reason as to why movesets don't change radically.

Yeah, I feel that's likely to change with this entry. Maybe this will become a trend in future Smash games, letting successful companies help with the balancing of the game. I agree on the fanbase being overly conservative.

Pic related:




I personally think that whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there IS a plethora of bad arguments used on a regular basis on this site.

Using a moveset, conceptual ideas, or opinion in a debate doesn't prove anything, because they aren't the same from anyone. Not everyone thinks the same, and making something up doesn't exactly work either.

Debates are usually decided based on facts and intellectual reasoning, not random "could or could not happen nonsense".

The only arguments I find useful, are the ones that are logical. Most of the time, these can be hard to find here.
Well, that's about all we CAN do man. I mean, unless you wanna have boring discussion about Sales and Popularity polls which are just as biased and flawed as conceptual ideas. At least with the latter you can put yourself in the developer's seat and get an idea of what must be considered when making a game. Especially if you use other successful games as reference.

Really, if you sit down and think about it, 90% of our speculation, be it polls, sales or concepts, is just a shot in the dark, at least until we get a trailer to go off of.
 

Johnknight1

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Falco and Toon Link get replaced for being clones in favor of allowing more original faces. 3 Starfox characters strikes me as overkill with how relevant SF is now, and how poorly 3 "cloney" characters were received back in Brawl. If we're gonna cut a SF character Falco's the most logical choice. Toon Link gets cut because he's an identical clone and the effort to make him different is better placed in making Link a better character, he gets no replacement because there's no reasonable one to take his spot like with Doc Mario back in Melee.
1. I don't think Sakurai cares about how relevant a franchise is.
2. Clones gradually get decloned.
3. Re-adding Falco and Toon Link is a lot easier than making a character from scratch. According to Microsoft, it costs 4 times as much to add a new client than keep an old client. That same principle can be used in something artistic like creating video games. Also, Falco is only a few moves away from being totally original.
In regards to cuts with the clones, we saw it happen from Melee to Brawl, I think it's fair to expect it in Smash 4, and I would prefer cuts for a variety of reasons.
But one of the 4 cut characters was original. Also, all the returning Melee clones became more original. Lucas has literally 3 moves that Ness has. And like I said, creating something from scratch is harder, more expensive, and more time consuming than merely fixing something up.
The "thing" next to Lucario is a rather comical placeholder for the Gen6 Pokemon. Habanero said it could end up being an armless imp and thus unfeasible, so that's what I used for the image.
Mewtwo gets cut for reasons said previously, Having Pokemon take up nearly 20% of the roster with with 8 characters and 6 slots is excessive imo, that's why I feel he may not come back, same with Roy. They might be DLC though.
Sakurai doesn't care about percentages of the roster, but the quality of the characters. Also, Mewtwo is the most wanted character not in Brawl. He's wanted more than newcomers. Sales will suffer if Sakurai doesn't re-add him.
Diddy+Dixie is mostly something I want to happen, since DKC2 is my fave in the series and the Puppeteer/Tagteam concept is always interesting and it'd be nice to have another. I feel that just because it couldn't work once before, doesn't mean he won't attempt it again, also just because Diddy was solo in Brawl doesn't mean he can't get into THIS Smash Bros in a slightly different (perhaps more powerful) way.
This is kinda my opinion with the Lucas/Ness thing: it's kinda like merging Link with Marth. Just because they have swords doesn't make them the same. They both are better separate. Plus, the likelihood of this being broken is extremely high, especially since they can approach you two different ways. The fact that the IC have the same moves is what makes it work so well.
Snake and Sonic are removed for two reasons 1. I want Snake back, so I'm prepping myself for his possible absence.
Even though Kojima and Sakurai are close friends. Sakurai's opinions > ours.
2. Both are guests, and we have yet to see Guests return in any other fighter ever, so there is a possibility they may not return simply due to that pretense.
Smash Bros. isn't just a fighting game, unlike BlazBlue, SF, Tekken, SC, etc. It is Smash Bros. It's part party game, part shooter, and it is totally character-driven. Also, Sakurai has stated that he felt Snake and Sonic were "incredible" additions to the roster, and added a lot of uniqueness to the roster.
Simon replaces Snake because not only is he the only dude bad enough to take his spot, but Kojima is apparently working on the Castlevania franchise so he makes a reasonable replacement.
But Kojima is also working on new Metal Gear games. Snake (whether Solid Snake or Big Boss) is in every Metal Gear game (save Rising), whereas Simon hasn't been in too many Castlevania games recently.
Anyway, in regard to what you were saying about hitboxes, what is it that's so tough for Smash when compared to other fighters like BlazBlue, who constantly revamp old characters while adding new faces, or SF and MvC which do the same and also make a lot of cuts. Is this the reason we don't normally see the much desire moveset revamps on current characters, or is Sakurai just lazy?
Well here's the thing: Smash Bros is character driven. SF, MvC, BB, they could all basically have playable walking turds clones of Ryu (or as I call it, SF, especially SF Alpha), and you wouldn't notice. If you replaced Mario, Link, and Pikachu with freaking 20 different generic Ryu clones like SF does with their characters, sales would drop significantly. No one wants to play as original created characters in Smash.

And Sakurai isn't lazy, especially when compared to Crap-con. He worked 20 hours a day, 6 days a week on Melee.

Also, unlike SF-related games, Smash comes out every 5 years; you get a new SF-related game seemingly ever year, with multiple re-releases for each game (because Crap-com is too cheap to give you the full game). Also, replacing, re-adding, and replacing characters in games like SF is done for marketing's sake, and to keep the roster "fresh". If they wanted to give you the full game, they'd just fix up the old characters from previous games, and add them in, too. If you release a game every year, people get bored of the same roster. If you release a game every 5 years, you don't have that issue.

It's not being lazy; it's being efficient, and maximizing the value, size, and diversity of the roster. On top of that, unlike a lot of SF games, the physics and gameplay (the basics aside) are totally different in each smash bros. games. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl are all completely different, to the point where each of them have different engines and way different game speed and gravity. You turn on most SF games, including any Vs. game, and they have the same engines, about the same gameplay, and they "feel" the exact same. It's almost Madden-esk, in a sense, especially with the multiple versions of games like SFII, III, IV, and now even MvC3.

tl;dr: Capcom treats fighting games like it's a regular season MLB game, Sakurai treats Smash Bros. like its' the Super Bowl.
 

Dark Phazon

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You know what's the problem here in this thread and about Smash 4 speculation in general? Everyone wants to be 'that guy' who guessed most of the roster right, and try to establish their opinions on the general public as much as possible. :rolleyes:

With that said, I'll be here sitting, watching, and chilling. While ranting about Impa being superiour to Sheik, even though it might not even happen in the game.

REALITY IS A *****!
Your king!

:phone:
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Some Japanese fanbase observations updates:
- Nothing much has changed.
- A lot more requests for Pac-Man

There is a lot of opposition to Pac-Man, particularly from those who want Tales character (of which they absolutely cannot agree on who should rep the series and are at each others throats on this subject). They use the typical points against Pac-Man (boring, bland) and say Tales is the series Namco is known for it, therefore it should get the guest spot for a Namco character.

Found a discussion about cuts. Most of the people think Ike and Lucario are goners (and that Chrom and Zoroark will replace them). Snake and Sonic are next in line in terms of beliefs about being cut. I have also seen people say Toon Link, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, and ROB could be cut.

Some dumb Leon (Resident Evil) fanboy derailed a thread I usually look at. Reminds me of Diddy Kong in that he would never stop bringing him up. Other posters reactions to him also reminded me similar to the Impa situation here (with a lot of them saying "Im leaving now, thanks for ruining this discussion").
What are your opinions on all of those subjects Chronobound? I'm interested because its nice knowing who has a generally good chance of getting in.

Well besides Leon. That just won't happen.
 

Johnknight1

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One question, how come other fighters such as BlazBlue have a much easier time doing away with clones and revamping characters completely than Smash Bros then? What exactly is it about Smash that makes it so hard to balance and program properly. And I mean balance not just from a competitive point of view, but also in regard to cast diversity.
1. Unlike other fighting games, the characters are as much of a draw as the gameplay, if not more. All the BlazBlue characters are either from GuiltyGear or BlazBlue. All of the Smash Bros. characters are pre-established. None of these characters have past history; and if they do, no one aside from super duper fans really care.
2. The roster is bigger.
3. There is a lot more content in Smash Bros than BlazBlue, by far.
4. "Clones" have been revamped from title to title. If you have ever played Smash 64, you know at least 3/4ths of the moves were used by multiple characters, and most characters by Brawl standards could be clones.

Look at Luigi: He was Mario with only a few stat differences in Smash 64 and a different dash attack. In Melee, he got his own forward smash, a new forward B, and his play style and stats were even more unlike Mario. In Brawl, he had his own unique down B and down air, and his animations were nearly entirely different from Mario's. Also look at the quality of the clones: The Melee clones (Luigi aisde) in Melee had at most 1 new move along with a few stat differences. Flash forward to the only new clone in Brawl (Lucas), and he is 3 moves away from having none of his attacks the same as Ness; and those 3 moves act very differently. Lucas is less of a clone in Brawl than all of the characters in Smash 64 (save for maybe Ness and whoever was the originally designed character). So, historically, the clones have become semi-clones, and then characters with a few difference, and now almost entirely different.
 
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