Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[FlareHabanero]

Considering that Chrom is a decedent of Marth, I do think some of his characteristics should take influences from his ancestor as a bit of a reference.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Minor detail I would like is if they remodel Ike to his Adult appearance in Radiant Dawn.

Troll Mode: Make Adult Ike and Young Ike.

 

[Johnknight1]

But that seems absurd, you still have characters with similar moves rather than very original diverse characters, and the progress of finally getting a unique character is long, look at Luigi for example, he still has ways to go before he's totally different from Mario.

Now compare this to the BlazBlue or Guilty Gear casts where EVERY character is very different from the rest of the cast. No two characters play ANYTHING alike.

First off, stop comparing Smash Bros to other fighting games. Smash Bros isn't limited by the genre; it's limited by nothing.

Well BlazBlue and GG have about half the roster size Smash WiiU will. And despite that, you can find reused animations, kicks, punches, and magic attacks for various characters.

Also, Falco plays completely different from Fox in Brawl. Even their 8 or so moves with similar animations, they have pretty different effects.

As for Luigi, visually he looks the same as Mario (he has 10 borrowed moves and the same grab), but gameplay-wise, he's totally different. On top of that, historically, Luigi is the same as Mario, and Sakurai is respecting that history. And, like I said, it is less time consuming, less costly, and requires less work to just do that. Which is sometimes nice, because unlike BB and GG, Smash has different modes, items, 3 and 4 player matches (last I checked with GG and BB, they didn't have that), and all kinds of bonus content.

Yes, but at the same time, being to conservative from game to game makes the games get stale, likewise, you begin to really limit your options for future installments when you try too hard to make the "perfect" game that satisfies all the fans.

SF is being conservative, releasing an upgraded version of the same game every year. The going for broke method Sakurai uses makes a better, bigger game, which is why Melee and Brawl sold way more copies than any other fighting game.

You mean like the sales for WindWaker suffered? I think this is an exaggeration, a character omission is no reason to skip out on a game, you can always pick up a new one. Any fan who thinks this way needs to stop being so entitled.

The sales of the Wind Waker were great, given the console sales. And it still starred Link.

If you switch the rosters of Smash Bros and Street Fighter roster, I guarantee you that SF will go way up in sales, whereas Smash Bros will go way down in sales. Why do you think Capcom wants a crossover fighting game with Nintendo so bad=???

Also, fans can be entitled. I'm entitled to buy something I like, as are fans. We make the industry with our pocketbooks. Without gamers, there are no game developers. To say otherwise is to be an absolutist and a totalitarian. And yes, a character omission is a good reason not to buy a game that is largely character driven with characters with a lot of previous history. I want Nintendo's All-Stars, and that's what I'm pay for: to play as Nintendo's all-stars in the most unique fighting/party game hybrid ever.

Comparing Link to Marth is absurd though, they both play VERY differently, and there's no way to make them "fuse" properly.

If you fuse them, you can get ride of Marth's mostly useless forward and side B with Link's (Melee) boomerang and his bombs, and Marth's neutral B with Link's arrows. You could also give Marth a tether recovery, Links' weight, and Link's power. Also, Marth in Brawl is lacking in range, whereas Link in Brawl is not.

Lucas and Ness on the other hand, both have the same playstyle and both are rather mediocre, not only that, but their move work well with each other, so why not replace the weaknesses of one, with the strengths of the other to make them a decent character?

Both have the same big weakness (their vulnerable timing after grabs), so combining them makes less sense. Plus, combining them sounds like more of an effort than keeping them separate. Why not just build them up in different ways=??? If you get ride of that stupid frame issue, make their recovery like Ness' in Smash 64, then most of their big problems are gone.

Also, on Diddy and Dixie, why not explore a different concept than the IC, one where they use different moves and can have Duo Partner moves? There's always room for creativity...

That could also end up bad if one of them is broken. Imagine it in Brawl. Diddy is already a top 5 character; giving him a nearly as strong partner would make him broken.

"shooter??"

There's over a half dozen guns. The ray gun, the rocket launcher thing, Snake's rocket thing, Fox and Falco's gun, Wolf's gun, Samus' charge beam gun, Samus' missiles, the super scope, etc. etc. etc.

I don't think time is an issue... People are getting tired of Zelda and that comes out every 5 years, and the reason people are tired of it is because of the lack of diversity and ingenuity in the games (plus the difficulty drop).

People get tired of Zelda because every game since Ocarina of Time has been laughable easy, and because the basic gameplay hasn't evolved much since OOT. Also, it comes out a lot more frequently than once every 5 years; try once every 2 years. From 2006 to 2011, we got 4 Zelda games plus a Crossbow Training game.

I get the feeling you don't play other fighters.

I've been playing fighting games for about 17 years.

Street Fighter 2 and the expansions all play very different from the Alpha series, which all have very different mechanics from the SF3 series, which all play opposite from the SF4 series. If you stop and play all four of them, you'll notice there are actually more differences among the four than there are in the Smash Bros games.

What I was more referring to was that SFII had about 20 zillion editions of that game (SFII), and all felt the same. As for SFIV, of course it's super different, it came out about 12 years after SFII. And no, SFIII and SFII are more similar than any smash bros games, as are SFIV and MvC3. The physics in both those pairs are the same, as is the engine. As for Alpha, I brought it up because it was pretty "meah."

The same thing can be said about BlazBlue, not only are future installments added for the story, Arcsys also takes the time to make sure each game plays differently from the last revamping all the characters and adding new ones in. One of BB's biggest selling points is the story, Arcsys could very well just bank on that and the fanservice, add a couple newbies in and call it a day, but they actually take the time to add, remove and even change mechanics withing each installment.

If someone bought BB because of the story, I feel sorry for them. I loved the game, but the story was dreadful cliche after dreadful cliche.

Also, SF has less clones than Smash.

Ryu = Fox, Falco=Ken, Wolf=Akuma

You forgot Sean, Sagat, Sakura, Allen, and Chun Li. All of those characters have, at least in one game, much of the moveset borrowed from Ryu, and a few specials borrowed from him, too.

SF adds Dan as a Joke and Gouken as a Falcofied clone of Akuma... sort of, not really, but w/e.

And Smash had Pichu and Roy as a all-around weaker Pichu and Marth.

Then in Smash you also have:
Link>Y/Toon Link
Ness>Lucas
Falcon>Ganon
etc...

Lucas has what=??? His forward B, up B, forward smash, and final smash have the same animation=??? Everything else is different (even his grabbing moves), and even in those moves, his up B, forward B, and forward smash act entirely different. He's a heck of a lot less of a clone than those characters I listed.

Smash actually has more clones.

Together, we named 9 SF clones in about a trillion games, all expansion packs (and that's not including the Vs. series). Smash, at the most, has 8 clones in 3 games. And even then, Lucas isn't that much of a clone, and the clones in Brawl had more original moves. As SF has shown, clones are gradually "uncloned." Just look at Ken if you don't believe me, and compare him to his SFII incarnation.

Lastly, MvC IS character driven. It's another All-Star Mashup, I don't understand how it differs from Smash aside from the fact that Smash isn't an arcade game.

MvC is, but SF is definitely not. Still, you can't tell me MvC3 didn't suffer sales-wise from a smaller roster, or that MvC2 didn't suffer sales-wise from those stupid original playable characters. Then again, most people only really play MvC2 on arcade setups...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Me neither, I was a huge supporter of him, Lyn and Wolf back in Brawl days, I'd hate to lose the two that actually made it in. The sooner people accept that all three can stay (Marth, Ike and Chrom), the sooner it becomes a reality.

Ike is actually nothing like Chrom, his Brawl iteration is a somewhat inaccurate depiction of his personality. All three of them can easily be in Smash 4, especially if you buff Ike as a heavyweight and give him axes (handaxe and Urvan).

I wrote a detailed description on all 3 of them and how they could differ in playstyle, moves and strategy, but it's way back and surrounded by flame wars, banter and ****posting, so I'll probably rewrite it and elaborate on it, as I really liked the ideas I came up with and I'd like to ponder them a bit more. It would make a neat post for Horsetail's moveset thread, and my Archetypes thread.



Not quite, Swordmasters are supposed to use Katanas and more 'fierce' than 'graceful.' They use a very Iaijutsu inspired style, that's very quick and deadly, but very close ranged. Whereas Marth basically draws a lot from Fencing with his superior range and defense breaks. Lyn is more of a Swordmaster really, and the main reason I want her in Smash, her style would be soooooo different from anything else in Smash, and it would so cool.

Check this out:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=329084

I wrote this a while back, and while I kinda wanna go back and rework it a bit to make her more counter-focused, like BlazBlue's Hakumen, the references to Ruroni Kenshin give a good example of why I'm excited about her character.

Oh, and all the Lords have plenty of Alt Costumes in the canon, no need to make other characters their costumes.

I always wanted Chrom to use Lances and Spears and Ike to use the Urvan axe, but couldn't really find out a way to incorperate them in a normal moveset based on Melee and Brawl. Outside of Chrom having a lance rushing attack for Side B loosely inspired on Ike's Side B, and Ike having Urvan as an alternate 'moveset' based on the slight possibility of addapting your moveset...

Now if we'd have these 'strong tilt' attacks you suggested with an extra attack button, I see no reason why Chrom and Ike wouldn't use their stronger weapons for 'strong tilts'! Damn, that idea is really amazing. Marth could have another sword for those attacks perhaps? Maybe use the actual rapier?

Know your pain with the movesets though. Have literally lost 100s of ideas in all the pages and posts and trolling and what not... Had so many ideas for characters, but can't find them anywhere.

Sorry to say but, even though I do think Lyn would be cool and have an unique style, she'd heavily have to fight the more deserving Takamaru for this... Don't think that adding 2 eastern styled sword fighters would be too good. But yeah, wish she could've made it in Brawl for a 3rd Fire Emblem character.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I always wanted Chrom to use Lances and Spears and Ike to use the Urvan axe, but couldn't really find out a way to incorperate them in a normal moveset based on Melee and Brawl. Now if we'd have these 'strong tilt' attacks with an extra attack button, I see no reason why Chrom and Ike wouldn't use their stronger weapons for 'strong tilts'! Damn, that idea is really amazing. Marth could have another sword for those attacks perhaps? Maybe use the actual rapier?

Know your pain with the movesets though. Have literally lost 100s of ideas in all the pages and posts and trolling and what not... Had so many ideas for characters, but can't find them anywhere.

That's the only reason why I was hoping that Ephraim would make it in to the next smash for weapon variety.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, with Chrom also able to use lances, he could even borrow a bit from Ephraim's lance swinging style? I always liked how he fought in Fire Emblem as well, so you're not alone. Am just glad to see a possibility with Chrom right now.

 

[Johnknight1]

The more you think about it, the more you realize that deep down inside, Marvel vs. Capcom is old. You know what'd be better=??? Marvel vs. STAR WARS!!!

Tales is far more popular as a whole in Japan, while it's a niche series everywhere else. I highly doubt it's more famous then Pac-man regardless though.

No, the original Pac-Man has easily been played by more gamers in every country than the entirety of the Tales series. Pac-Man is also the most recognizable 3rd video game character ever.

What kind of games where the Tales series anyway? I kinda picture JRPG in my mind, but what about the rest? Do the series have good stories ect?

It varies from game to game, but generally they are action JRPG's. One of the big sells to me on Tales of Symphonia was you could play up to 4 players through the story. I played and beat the entire game (100% finished) with my brother, my friend, and my friend's brother, and it was freaking awesome.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Great, now I feel I missed out.

 

[Deleted member]

A bunch of biased trollbait!!

>saying Chun Li is a clone of Ryu, but saying Lucas and Ness are very diverse
>calling Smash Bros a shooter because it has guns as items
>saying BlazBlue and Guilty Gear have reused animations

Dude... You're trolling right?
Well whatever, I'm gonna expand on the points I feel like bothering with, the rest I'll just drop them, I can't be bothered my friend.

Which is sometimes nice, because unlike BB and GG, Smash has different modes, items, 3 and 4 player matches (last I checked with GG and BB, they didn't have that), and all kinds of bonus content.

GG and BB have plenty of Bonus modes, from Challenges to Survival to that strategy minigame and Gag-Side stories, not to mention a more fleshed out story mode than any other fighting game ever. Have you even played the games?

First off, stop comparing Smash Bros to other fighting games. Smash Bros isn't limited by the genre; it's limited by nothing.

Smash Bros is a fighting game first and foremost, and I want it to be just that. Comparing it to the arguably the best developed fighting games in the genre to draw reference and influence is not a capital sin my friend.

The sales of the Wind Waker were great, given the console sales. And it still starred Link.

My point exactly, I guess the sarcasm in my ironic post was tough to pick up. Unless you forgot at the backlash WW got because it was cartoony.

If you switch the rosters of Smash Bros and Street Fighter roster, I guarantee you that SF will go way up in sales, whereas Smash Bros will go way down in sales. Why do you think Capcom wants a crossover fighting game with Nintendo so bad=???

Capcom fighters, the Arcsys Games and King Of Fighters are renowned as the pinnacle of 2D fighting games, something Smash Bros. can't claim. Also, I've never heard of Capcom wanting a Nintendo crossover, but I certainly want that. Nintendo characters in an arcade fighter, about damn time... Saying Smash Bros and Nintendo are better at making fighting games than Capcom is the most absurd thing I've heard all month.

Plus, combining them sounds like more of an effort than keeping them separate. Why not just build them up in different ways=??? If you get ride of that stupid frame issue, make their recovery like Ness' in Smash 64, then most of their big problems are gone.

Building and balancing ONE character up by scavanging ideas from another is more difficult than Building and balancing TWO character with NO references. But that's logically incorrect, it mathematically DOESN'T make sense.

If someone bought BB because of the story, I feel sorry for them. I loved the game, but the story was dreadful cliche after dreadful cliche.

What exactly is 'cliche' about it? I know many people that are into BB simply because of the Story and Waifus and give two ****s about the fighting system. BB actually uses Folklore as the inspiration to it's story and adds a ton of unique twists to it, it's actually the MOST praised aspect of the game. Even the characters break the generic cliches, most of the personalities in the cast don't exist in most Japanese media, Noel is probably the most cliche one, and even she does a WHOLE LOT to be rather unique and well inspired.


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I always wanted Chrom to use Lances and Spears and Ike to use the Urvan axe, but couldn't really find out a way to incorperate them in a normal moveset based on Melee and Brawl. Outside of Chrom having a lance rushing attack for Side B loosely inspired on Ike's Side B, and Ike having Urvan as an alternate 'moveset' based on the slight possibility of addapting your moveset...

Now if we'd have these 'strong tilt' attacks you suggested with an extra attack button, I see no reason why Chrom and Ike wouldn't use their stronger weapons for 'strong tilts'! Damn, that idea is really amazing. Marth could have another sword for those attacks perhaps? Maybe use the actual rapier?

Know your pain with the movesets though. Have literally lost 100s of ideas in all the pages and posts and trolling and what not... Had so many ideas for characters, but can't find them anywhere.

Oh, you're gonna love what I wrote then man, lemme dig it up...

The argument that Chrom and Ike are too similar is biased and weak.

Ike is a heavyweight and could easily be expanded to further represent the archetype.

For Ike, give him Axes, such as the Tomohawk/Hand Axe as a 5B for some mid/long range zoning. It's a lot like Link's Boomerang but with more of a "slashy" multi-hit ability.

His 2B is now Eruption rather than Counter, it's got strong resistance to hit-stun making it a good defensive move. His 4/6B is modified, giving him less range, but more speed. It also takes much less to charge.

All of his defenses are upped so he has less hitstun, takes less damage, and less knockback from hits, thus making him more of a heavyweight, like he should. His running speed is the same, but his fall speed is faster, this is both a buff and a restriction. His jump height is reduced a bit. His attack range stays the same

His tilts and aerials are all given less delay, thus making them faster. His 4/6A is replaced to be an Anti Air attack, it is an angled hit that hits at 45 degrees above him, the range and speed on his 2A is dramatically increased to compensate for the lack of a horizontal poke. Lastly, like all characters, he's given the ability to chain and string moves together, so a standard combo for him would look like this 5A>5A>2A>8A>8Smash. All of his Smash attacks remain the same in speed, range and power, they are meant to be slow killing moves, and the best way to use them is in combos. Well, his 2Smash can be changed to be a faster move with a little less power, horizontal knockback maybe?

Overall Ike is meant to be a slow defensive character, he has deadly range and good pokes a la Sagat, his Anti Air is very fast and very lethal, his 5B Axe makes for a good defensive poke/zoning move. Due to his poor jump, his air game is terrible however, it is only good defensively, however, Aether makes up for it by giving him a good mix up move and a great recovery attack. Some of his A attacks and Aerials have replaced Ragnell with his dad's Axe, giving them different hitboxes. Likewise, his 4/6 Smash is Ragnell in one hand and his Dad's Axe in the other, thus justifying its power. Obviously he gets his FE10 getup.

Also, all of his stupid "I fight for my friends" taunts and attitude, has been changed to make him a more honorable and heroic figure. However, his personality is more Ruthless and Brutal (think Simon in Gurren Lagann), the kinda guy who get's **** done and counts on his will power to do so. Also, his ruthlessness reflect his vindictive, yet respectful demeanor from his games (he fought to avenge his father, yet still had compassion for his rival).

Chrom

4/6B is Aether, since he too has Aether, he gets it as well, but as a SideB, the only similarity with Ike's Aether here is the name. This Aether steals health from foes on impact, not much, but it still does it (a la Ragna in BB, his drive steals health), it is a Two-hit rush move, and a great combo opener.

His 2B is Holy Shield (I think it was you who suggested this), it is a temporary Ability that increases Chroms frail defenses for a while, while also increasing the power of all his SPECIAL attacks. After being used, it must be recharged before her can use it again. It recharges faster the more hits Chrom lands.

Somewhere in his tilts he has a Javelin as a weapon (Fair? or 4/6A), he throws it but it has a chain attached to it so it returns to him, it hits opponents twice. If you hit with the tip (at peak range) it hits once, but has much greater knockback, a decent killing move.

The rest of the moves will have to wait till I play FE13.

Chrom's general playstyle is a nice contrast between Marth's offence and Ike's defense. He's a very well rounded character, with a lot of diverse abilities, his specials have mediocre power, but once he powers them up with Holy Shield they become very powerful (think Tsubaki in BlazBlue with her specials and power up ability). He's got good ground and air attacks, but has less aerial range than Marth, he's also slower than Marth, his defensive game is good as far as defensive moves, unlike Marth, but like Marth, he's in trouble once takes high damage and can be knocked around easily. UNLESS, he has Holy Shield activated which lets him be more reckless (doesn't make him as tough as Ike, but still better than Marth), however, at high damages, Holy Shield lasts less time.

A far as personality, he inherits that "I fight for my friends" attitude Ike had in Brawl.

As for Marth, he's buffed to be more like in Melee, and his 4/6B is improved to be more like the Astral abillity in FE (what it's based off of), in fact I would make Marth's 4/6B like Noel's Drive in BB, where activating it changes his specials and allows combos to be stung more easlily.

With this, I no longer find them being similar at all. All 3 of them have very unique and diverse moves, playstyles and personlities.

EDIT: On Lyn vs. Takamaru

Takamaru uses projectiles, Lyn does not. That alone sets them apart a whole lot. Personally I see Takamaru playing more like Guilty Gear's Baiken, minus the counters, a MixUp character with speedy sword moves and many ranged weapons, and Lyn as a counter heavy, close range, Rushdown character.

 

[The Black mage]

I never seen chrom, so I am going with ephriham on this.
I also just want to hear him say " I don't pick fights I cannot win. "
Most bad*** thing ever, even no sympathy gets close to it.

 

[Arcadenik]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Lyn uses a crossbow or something. So, there's her projectile move.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Lyn uses a crossbow or something. So, there's her projectile move.

She does, but it's never useful in her games, and I'm omitting it as it doesn't mesh well with neither the Swormaster archetype nor the Ruroni Kenshin reference.

Takamaru on the other hand makes healthy use of his projectiles in his game I hear.

 

[FlareHabanero]

In Mysterious Murasame Castle, you ether had to use projectiles or close range to defeat your enemies. But what's unique is that which type of attack depends on Takamaru's distance; he normally shoots out shurikens/fireballs/windmill sword, but will use the katana if he's close enough to his foe. Some foes were easier to defeat with ether one or the other to further emphasized this.

 

[The Black mage]

He is a samurai, should he be using a longbow or something?

 

[Arcadenik]

Takamaru definitely will have shurikens if he gets in Smash, if Nintendo Land is anything to go by.

It would be really nice if after Takamaru gets in Smash, Nintendo would make a new Murasame Castle game... hopefully it will be visually striking like Okami or Muramasa: The Demon Blade... but at the very least, I think Takamaru's stage would look so amazing.

 

[FlareHabanero]

He is a samurai, should he be using a longbow or something?

Technically no, especially considering the longbow was a weapon with European origins. I presume you were referring to the yumi, with ether a long variant called daikyū or a short variant called hankyū. Kyūjutsu was the practice of archery among samurai.

 

[Gamingboy]

Little Mac laughs at your "projectiles".

 

[Deleted member]

In Mysterious Murasame Castle, you ether had to use projectiles or close range to defeat your enemies. But what's unique is that which type of attack depends on Takamaru's distance; he normally shoots out shurikens/fireballs/windmill sword, but will use the katana if he's close enough to his foe. Some foes were easier to defeat with ether one or the other to further emphasized this.

Exactly, Takamaru is a much more balanced character than Lyn, Lyn would be a very complex risk-reward character. She lacks proper defenses due to her lack of Ranged moves, close range techs, and few pokes, but makes up for it by having the best counter in the game (which I need to revamp), and very, VERY fast and powerful one-hit strikes, she can also set up characters for Combos very well having Air Game that rivals Marth's, but insane Ground game, so in the right hands she can be lethal, but is difficult to master.

Takamaru on the other hand has more options at his disposal and can work with many different options to approach his opponents, much like GG's Baiken.

Both are Mind-Games heavy characters, Lyn mostly because of her insane speed and counter, and Takamaru because he has a nice Mix of long range and close range.

The only similarity they bear is that they both use Katanas.

Takamaru is more a Samurai a la Mitsurigi per say, Lyn is more like a speedy Assassin (Kenshin).

Their styles are different too I'd say, Kendo vs. Iaijutsu.

 

[The Black mage]

Ah, well, I was close

 

[FlareHabanero]

I always viewed Takamaru as more of the speedy character that is excellent at spacing and approaching but had a notable precise feel to him. You have to string together moves in order to perfectly sync his fast but precise play style, if not you'll suffer the consequences of being reckless. In essence, like a samurai.

 

[Deleted member]

I always view Takamaru as more of the speedy character that is excellent at spacing and approaching. In essence, like a samurai. You have to string together moves in order to perfectly sync his fast but precise play style, if not you'll suffer the consequences of being reckless.

That's very similar to Baiken, except Baiken has a counter gimmick as well, and couple unorthodox moves like her Tatami Mat (which is her best technique), but also from what I recall, Mitsurugi in Soul Calibur as well. It's been a while since I've played SC, but that's what I recall him being like, well Minus the long range, both represent the Samurai archetype rather well, with Speedy Kendo inspired moves (moreso Mitsurugi than Baiken), and a rather speedy approach, but not Supersonic.

 

[Johnknight1]

>saying Chun Li is a clone of Ryu, but saying Lucas and Ness are very diverse

Cung Le has several borrowed animations and standard moves in SFII, and 2 borrowed special attacks. You can say what you want, but that's a fact. Chun Li borrows far more moves from Ryu than Lucas borrows from Ness; Lucas only borrows 4 moves, including the Final Smash.

GG and BB have plenty of Bonus modes, from Challenges to Survival to that strategy minigame and Gag-Side stories, not to mention a more fleshed out story mode than any other fighting game ever. Have you even played the games?

Bonus modes, yes. Bonus content in regular matches as an option. The extra modes, while nice, aren't quite as deep, time consuming, or unique as what's in smash.

And I have played a few a GG games and love the 1st 2 BB games.

Smash Bros is a fighting game first and foremost, and I want it to be just that. Comparing it to the arguably the best developed fighting games in the genre to draw reference and influence is not a capital sin my friend.

Smash Bros. is just as much inspired by platform games like Mario as it is inspired by fighting games like Street Fighter (like it's spiritual prequel, the Outfoxies). Smash is also inspired by the likes of Kirby's platforming and party elements, which Sakurai also created.

My point exactly, I guess the sarcasm in my ironic post was tough to pick up. Unless you forgot at the backlash WW got because it was cartoony.

I thought the graphics gave it the perfect presentation. To me, the graphics, art style, and lighting style all are about creating a game with a unique and "complete" atmosphere (along with the music, landscapes, and character designs), and that was clearly done in the Wind Waker, and I think it revolutionized our view on graphics in gaming. It also helps that the Wind Waker is a freaking classic and a smashing success on all levels.

Capcom fighters, the Arcsys Games and King Of Fighters are renowned as the pinnacle of 2D fighting games, something Smash Bros. can't claim. Also, I've never heard of Capcom wanting a Nintendo crossover, but I certainly want that. Nintendo characters in an arcade fighter, about damn time... Saying Smash Bros and Nintendo are better at making fighting games than Capcom is the most absurd thing I've heard all month.

*smacks head into desk* What I said is you switch the ROSTERS AROUND! You know, Mario, Pikachu, and co. from Brawl roster goes to SFIV, and Ryu, Ken, and co. and the SFIV roster go to Brawl. You'd see Brawl's sales go way down from where they are now, and SFIV's sales go way up from where they are now. That's how much the characters mean in smash.

I wasn't saying Smash > SF, because, quite frankly, like I said, Smash Bros. isn't a pure fighting game like SF, and thus, I view them as incomparable.

While I'm at it, I think a Nintendo-Capcom crossover would sell better than a Marvel-Capcom crossover. After all, not all Marvel fans are gamers, but all Nintendo fans are gamers. However, a Marvel-Capcom comic would sell better than a Nintendo-Capcom comic!

Building and balancing ONE character up by scavanging ideas from another is more difficult than Building and balancing TWO character with NO references. But that's logically incorrect, it mathematically DOESN'T make sense.

But building two characters with only 4 similar moves into one is rather silly. If we did that, we'd have combined all of the characters from Smash 64 (minus Ness) into one character!

What exactly is 'cliche' about it? I know many people that are into BB simply because of the Story and Waifus and give two ****s about the fighting system. BB actually uses Folklore as the inspiration to it's story and adds a ton of unique twists to it, it's actually the MOST praised aspect of the game. Even the characters break the generic cliches, most of the personalities in the cast don't exist in most Japanese media, Noel is probably the most cliche one, and even she does a WHOLE LOT to be rather unique and well inspired.

Well, I've only done a few of them (maybe 5 or so), and I found them kinda annoying. I just thought the story was too predictable, too "contained," and I found it hard to enjoy seeing as how these characters are brand new, and since some of the characters (especially their English voices) annoyed me. However, I will say the presentation was well done, and it has a very good ebb and flow. But regardless, how is the story the most praised part when the gameplay is that freaking awesome=???

With comparison to Smash Bros, all those characters are established, so the comparison is pretty hard. Heck, you got several legends of gaming in Smash. The difference between Smash and BB is almost like comparing the Avengers being watched by someone who owns several comics of all the characters and know most of the history of those characters versus someone who had never heard of them. You got two different takes on it. I think, in regard to smash, however, getting help from the Tales team is a step in the right direction. Then again, anything is better than Game Arts!

 

[Gamingboy]

Want to know what would sell even better than a Nintendo-Capcom game?

A Nintendo-Marvel game. Throw in Mickey Mouse too, y'know, because Disney.

 

[Johnknight1]

Character driven has nothing to do with it really. Street Fighter has its iconic fighting characters like Ryu, Chun-Li, and Guile. In fact, the absence of most of the SF2 cast is one reason why SF3 bombed.

But those characters don't carry as much weight as the stars of the stars of smash bros, specifically the 4 Mario characters, Link, DK, Diddy, Wario, Kirby, Samus, the Pokémon, Sonic, and Snake. Also, aside from those characters you mentioned (plus Ken), the rest of the characters are largely unknown to most gamers.

If that doesn't mean that characters don't play a role in a game's appeal, nothing will. Likewise, MvC has as much crossover appeal as Smash Bros. - though it could never reel in the same numbers. Then there's BlazBlue which has truly pushed how stories are told in fighting games and making it an important aspect of the game.

MvC is definitely character driven; there's no denying that when you have the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Captain America. As for BlazBlue, the characters are unique, but if you remove them and replace them with other similar characters, there won't be a huge drop off in sales.

I'll agree with you on this, but that decision to put so much time into it was not very smart. Also, I think we can both agree that the numbers don't mean much if there's not much quality to them.

But smash is the most unique fighting game franchise of them all. The combination of platform, fighting, and party game is a perfect marriage, as polygamous as it is!

there's also the fact that updates address balance issues and there's only so much playtesting that can be done in studio. At least they're aware that a competitive game requires balance issues to be addressed, and we're bound to see this with Smash 4.

I will give you that. I would love to see Smash balanced (the bottom characters only) via patching like what's done with BlazBlue (where you can choose the game version).

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all. No two games in any fighting game series play alike. Ask any longtime player, casual or competitive. They change just as much as the Smash games do. I can't play Street Fighter 2 like 3, 4, or even Alpha. The combos, mechanics, etc. are all different. Likewise, Marvel 2 and 3 simply cannot be compared.

I wasn't comparing 2, 3, 4, and Alpha; I was comparing SFIV and MvC3, and the jump from II to III, in both pairs in which the game uses either the same engine or a carbon copy engine, with dang near the same physics and gravity in both duos of comparisons. Just compare that jump from Smash 64 to Melee, and Melee to Brawl, and it's not the same. However, to be fair, III had a ton of new characters, as did MvC3.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I've only done a few of them (maybe 5 or so), and I found them kinda annoying. I just thought the story was too predictable, too "contained," and I found it hard to enjoy seeing as how these characters are brand new, and since some of the characters (especially their English voices) annoyed me. However, I will say the presentation was well done, and it has a very good ebb and flow. But regardless, how is the story the most praised part when the gameplay is that freaking awesome=???

How do you hate Noel's English voice? Imo it's far better than her Japanese one, Christina Vee did a wonderful job with her. I'm practially dying from a heart attack when playing through her story mode.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k98_XHlbXhw#t=10m59s

Other characters have great voices, such as Ragna and Jin, and Hazama, oh God, Hazama's is great.

I agree the gameplay is the best aspect of the game as well, I picked up BB because it's a good fighter, not because of the story. Though, if BB got a strict Visual Novel, I'd definitely pick it up,

Also, I would love a Nintendo Vs Capcom game, it needs to get done.

And on everything else, we can just agree to disagree man, I don't feel like arguing about it.

 

[Deleted member]

So, you're defining "feasability" by the arbitrary terms of whatever is going through Sakurai's mind, that's a very cunning way of avoiding any reason in your arguments.

I never claimed the points to be of my own beliefs, so it's clear you don't really pay attention to what is being said.
Furthermore, the whole discussion about feasibility is a deviation on your part of my original point, in that nothing is for certain, and that there are multiple outcomes, which cannot be denied.
I could also say the same to you for your avoidance of reason in regards to the 6th Gen possibility. Simply put, the "poster child" could end up not having an issue, or it could. But you merely avoid the possibility that it couldn't on the grounds of "it just will".

I feel the whole moveset deal is about as one-sided as the whole relevancy issue, weren't you the one arguing that any character could be added and that movesets didn't matter in regard to inclusion a bunch of pages back (it was in regard to Animal Crossing)? It seems to be the card that people pull when they can't think of a valid reason for why a character they don't want shouldn't be added. I should know, I'm guilty of this myself as well.

Except, I'm not arguing about movesets. See, this is why I say you are not paying attention. Next response I see that you aren't paying attention to what is being said, I will no longer debate with you.
I am arguing about gimmicks that the character is known for. In the case of Deoxys, it's the transformation gimmick, which you don't seem to grasp that it would be rather difficult to properly implement. Same with Zoroark's Illusion. The Animal Crosser has no such known gimmick that defines him that would be hard to implement.

And stop making judgements. I never said I don't want Deoxys/Zoroark/6th Gen whoever. In fact, Deoxys was one of my most wanted characters pre-Brawl, I legitimately liked Zoroark (due to the connection to Entei, as shallow as that is) and just happen to support Genesect more at this point, and for a 6th Gen, if there's one that easily works that happens to be very popular and marketable like Lucario was, by all means add it. However, such a one does not exist to the public as of this post, and it is unknown whether one WILL.

Anyway, my point was, it's pretty clear that the new Posterchild will be like the others, a Pokemon that stands out as "cool" from a child's perspective. Kids tend to like bipedal Mewtwo clones, that's likely what we'll get. Also consider that it IS a Pokemon game, and Pokemon fight, so even it if lacks arms, it will still have the means to fight, whether it's psychic Powers or what have you.

Except that as a "poster child", Zoroark absolutely failed to the point that not only did the previous "poster child" Lucario upstage it when BW2 came along, but even before that, Zoroark stopped being marketed while the starters and the version mascot Legendaries upstaged it.
If anything, another "biped Mewtwo clone" (which is a BS description, as Zoroark is nothing like Mewtwo) would very logically be the route they DON'T take to avoid the same criticisms Zoroark had for being a "wannabe Lucario" in how they were trying to replicate Lucario's success.
And even then, Victini is more of a "poster child"/Generation Mascot than Zoroark.

That being said, again, it is unknown what will happen with 6th Gen. It might get a popular workable creature, and it also might not. To make a definitive answer at this point is ludicrous. Which is why I said at the very end of my initial post, "time will eventually reveal all".

My last question is, what exactly makes Deoxys unfeasible in your eyes, I was a supporter of it back in Brawl times because its form Changes made for a cool concept, where each special would transform it into one of its four forms.

Because, unlike other characters, this would require multiple models and character data for switching through said models (a point I made in the previous post, which is yet AGAIN another sign that you don't pay attention).
Now, the most feasible way (and most reasonable way, considering how it uses its formes in the anime) for it to work would be to switch through formes for various actions, such as Speed for Dashing, Defense for Shielding, Attack for Smash Attacks, etc. with Specials also utilizing the alternate forms while using the Normal forme as the default state.
However, even then, that requires multiple models to switch through.

EDIT: I'm pretty much too tired to continue this debate, so don't expect me to continue until tomorrow, mmk?

 

[Johnknight1]

How do you hate Noel's English voice? Imo it's far better than her Japanese one, Christina Vee did a wonderful job with her. I'm practially dying from a heart attack when playing through her story mode.

Her voice was nice, but some of the others were pretty generic. It's always funny how the same Dragonball voice actors are used in dubs of everything!

I agree the gameplay is the best aspect of the game as well, I picked up BB because it's a good fighter, not because of the story. Though, if BB got a strict Visual Novel, I'd definitely pick it up,

Yeah the gameplay is incredible. As for the story, to be fair, I don't really like any fighting games' story; not even Soul Calibur's (although SCII story mode was incredible IMO).

Also, I would love a Nintendo Vs Capcom game, it needs to get done.

If Capcom gets their act together, yes, it would be a brilliant marriage.

And on everything else, we can just agree to disagree man, I don't feel like arguing about it.

For the record though, I didn't say that Smash > SF, but Smash's roster of characters sell more copies than SF's roster. You seemed to misread what I said there bro.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Nintendo vs. Capcom, now with 100% less Mario and Mega Man.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: I'm pretty much too tired to continue this debate, so don't expect me to continue until tomorrow, mmk?

Me too dude, I've stayed up real late finishing up an essay, and am very tired... Tomorrow's gonna suck ***. I'll re-read your whole post an reply properly tomorrow.

For the record though, I didn't say that Smash > SF, but Smash's roster of characters sell more copies than SF's roster. You seemed to misread what I said there bro.

Ok, dude... I guess so, I'm just so tired man I probably did. No worries man.

 

[Johnknight1]

Want to know what would sell even better than a Nintendo-Capcom game?

A Nintendo-Marvel game. Throw in Mickey Mouse too, y'know, because Disney.

When Disney bought Marvel, I said Marvel vs. Capcom 3 shouldn't happen, and instead, Disney vs. Capcom should happen. Now that Disney owns Indiana Jones and Star Wars via owning LucasFilms, I say I want that way more than ever before. Whether we got Disney vs. Capcom or Disney vs. Nintendo or Disney vs. whatever, you'd have to buy it if it had classic Marvel, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Pixar, and Disney characters.

But above all else, I think a Marvel/DC hybrid game, for historical purposes, regardless of whether an action game, a fighting game, or whatever, would be the ideal "versus" crossover game.

 

[kikaru]

What kind of games where the Tales series anyway? I kinda picture JRPG in my mind, but what about the rest? Do the series have good stories ect?

JRPG. The stories can range from great to generic depending on what games you play. (Tales of Symphonia had a good story while Tales of Innocence had a terribad story in my opinion) They can be relatively long games that can go up well over 60 hours and the combat is incredibly fun. I'd highly recommend the good ones such as Tales of Symphonia, Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Graces, and Tales of the Abyss. (I'm sure there are more that I haven't played.)

And on an unrelated note.
Perhaps it is me but I feel like Pac-Man suffers in a similar way as Sonic in which both were legendary icons back in the day, but their more recent games just pale in comparison to what they used to be. (not saying he doesn't have a chance or anything like that, just that he's not what he used to be)

Edit: I suppose a better way of putting it is this. When a new Pac-Man game is announced how many people are going to absolutely drool over it compared to if a new Mario, Pokemon, Starfox, Metroid, Fire Emblem, etc.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ ManlySpirit
No worries. I just don't want you to think I hate Street Fighter, especially since it is one of the series I grew up with, and a series I still love. Best of all, I STILL SUCK AT IT!!!

Nintendo vs. Capcom, now with 100% less Mario and Mega Man.

My reaction to this happening, if, God so help me, it was to ever happen.

And on an unrelated note.
Perhaps it is me but I feel like Pac-Man suffers in a similar way as Sonic in which both were legendary icons back in the day, but their more recent games just pale in comparison to what they used to be. (not saying he doesn't have a chance or anything like that, just that he's not what he used to be)

That makes sense. However, look where Sonic is now: He went from pretty low to being in quite a few very enjoyable game. But regardless, Pac-Man's on the way back up, especially with a Disney children show to come out this year. Also, those Pac-Man arcade re-re-re-re-releases definitely help his popularity, and keep him relevant.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I can say that after Sonic Colors, SonicGenerations, and Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic is slowly crawling his way up. It will never reach the same status as the Genesis days, but at least there is a notable step in the right direction.

 

[Deleted member]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but did Chrono recently say Pac-Man's support in Japan is increasing?

 

[FlareHabanero]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but did Chrono recently say Pac-Man's support in Japan is increasing?

Yes. Coincidentally, Pac-man still gets bombarded with the same complaints of being bland or boring when confronted by the Tales fans.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Ironic to see a little talk of the much wished Nintendo vs Capcom dream-game, after just witnessing the battle of all battles.

edit: I call that karma. ^^

 

[Moon Monkey]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but did Chrono recently say Pac-Man's support in Japan is increasing?

Ridley's believe it or not: Pacman becoming popular in Japan

 

[Big-Cat]

Her voice was nice, but some of the others were pretty generic. It's always funny how the same Dragonball voice actors are used in dubs of everything!

Well, some of them are that good. Not only that, but BlazBlue was obviously recorded in California based off some of the talent. Some of the talent was originally from Texas (Laura Bailey, Travis Willingham).

And nothing is more generic than that one voice on Family Guy. You know the one. You hear it at least once every episode. Heck, I think it's meant to be that way.

For the record though, I didn't say that Smash > SF, but Smash's roster of characters sell more copies than SF's roster. You seemed to misread what I said there bro.

Well no ****, Sherlock. Who in their right mind would argue that. That's like expecting Okami to outsell Pokemon on star power alone. It's just not going to happen.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well, some of them are that good. Not only that, but BlazBlue was obviously recorded in California based off some of the talent. Some of the talent was originally from Texas (Laura Bailey, Travis Willingham).

As a Californian, I get tired of hearing Californians!

And nothing is more generic than that one voice on Family Guy. You know the one. You hear it at least once every episode. Heck, I think it's meant to be that way.

Because everyone is voiced by Seth MacFarley or whatever his name is, who created it, and he loves the sound of his own voice almost as much as he loves being unfunny.

But really, I like how seemingly every Japanese VA thing has to have that dude who voices Piccolo and Vegeta in DBZ!

All this California and DBZ talks made me think of this! "Where are you from?" "NAPPA!" "Napa? Napa Valley in California?" "YES!"

Well no ****, Sherlock. Who in their right mind would argue that. That's like expecting Okami to outsell Pokemon on star power alone. It's just not going to happen.

It doesn't do much for Mario Party.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but did Chrono recently say Pac-Man's support in Japan is increasing?

As more and more Tales fans realize that the series is without a main character and that none of them are known outside of their small fanbase, the more they realize that Pac-Man, the most recognizable video game character outside of Nintendo, is the superior choice for Smash Bros.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Also like no matter how Diverse they become having
Marth
2 more fire emblem reps
2 links
Takamaru

Ontop of Lyn/lloyd will be way too many sword chars seeing how long it takes new chars i doubt they will all be that different between each over.. which is what the whole point is..

But yh whatever happens happens...

not against anyone just stating a point.