Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[volbound1700]

I never could beat Megaman 2. Always got to Dr. Wiley and could not beat his machine.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I always envisioned Sonic's playstyle emphasizing racking up damage quickly

Sakurai mentioned that although sonic's trademark is being a fast runner, he doesn't actually move that quickly. As in it wouldn't look right to see sonic throw a quick furry of punches. Aside from running fast hes actually quite slow.

 

[Popsydoodles]

like the flash in Injustice

 

[volbound1700]

Interesting comments from the Tales and Tekken teams, perhaps they are staying out to allow Pac-Man to be the Namco rep and they know he will be the one that their company and Sakurai want.

Sonic is very quick with his aerial and his recovery is very well. I found him to be good in item games as an item chucker and Smash Ball grabber. He is hard to kill but it is hard to kill others with him bascially.

 

[BKupa666]

I don't get this "overabundance" of potential you claim Sonic to have, and I have played nearly every Sonic game. Unless you are counting minor optional power-ups such as SA2's Magic Hand and things like the Werehog.

Sonic's potential consists of stuff like Sonic Boost, Sonic Wind, shockwaves, energy shields and the like (not counting what he does in Brawl), amid the minor power-ups and gimmicks he could (though probably wouldn't) use. Comparatively, I've never seen a Pac-Man moveset that didn't consist of the same four moves.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It doesn't really matter if a character is boring (which is suggestive), as long as the character is competent. I mean Marth is one of the more boring characters in Super Smash Bros., but because of his effective style of play it becomes a moot point.

Isaac.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic's potential consists of stuff like Sonic Boost, Sonic Wind, shockwaves, energy shields and the like (not counting what he does in Brawl), amid the minor power-ups and gimmicks he could (though probably wouldn't) use. Comparatively, I've never seen a Pac-Man moveset that didn't consist of the same four moves.

Agreed:

Sonic Boost
Drift
Sonic Wind
Bounce Attack
LightSpeed Dash
Flame Roll
Slide Attack

Plus a lot of the upgrades he had in Sonic 06.

Not to mention Chaos Control, but it's not necessary.

Likewise, he's most known for his quick acceleration as well as his raw speed, so he could also don soe after-image type movements, like in DBZ fighters.


Sonic Boost is also a move I'd forgotten about. It'd be an insanely awesome move to have tbh, and it could even be Sonic's Gimmick, if Smash were like Blazblue.


PacMan on the other hand has no synergy. There is no concrete strategy that he can really get behind. Even more dull characters like Roy could make mean fighters becuase they have SOMETHING to go by. Marth may seem dull to you guys, but if you have a Keen eye, you'll notice that he does indeed have some gimmicks that build his playstyle:

Fencing style sword play where the tip is the strongest point.
Dancing-like movements when he attacks.

Marth is all about staying in rhythm, and keeping that flow. Break the flow and Marth starts to lose the match.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Pacman=smiley face with arms and legs...

Watch this and tell me that this scene doesn't make him seem like a smiley face to you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPEhTGktgM

 

[Metal Overlord]

Sakurai mentioned that although sonic's trademark is being a fast runner, he doesn't actually move that quickly. As in it wouldn't look right to see sonic throw a quick furry of punches. Aside from running fast hes actually quite slow.

Hmmm, I never knew that, thanks for the info

 

[Oasis_S]

When I play as Sonic I like to try and run past the opponent, and grab them from behind...

Yeah... I feel so Strong when I pull that off once out of twelve times...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Isaac.

Alright, and...?

 

[LaniusShrike]

I really would have imagined Sonic as being more of a Skirmisher... constantly darting in, hitting the enemy, getting out of there...

As Manly said, I think his Down B should have been the bounce attack in the air. Low damage, quick, bounces back up when hitting something... would've been fun. It'd be so satisfying to jump over someone who's recovering and bounce off their heads.

It's a bit worrisome that SF x Tekken has Pacman in a giant treebot suit instead of him fighting on his own... Especially in a game that actually has two characters that are Pacman's size. I do wonder if that's because they didn't like their ideas for him fighting normally.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic's potential consists of stuff like Sonic Boost, Sonic Wind, shockwaves, energy shields and the like (not counting what he does in Brawl), amid the minor power-ups and gimmicks he could (though probably wouldn't) use. Comparatively, I've never seen a Pac-Man moveset that didn't consist of the same four moves.

That's because "those same four moves" are typically the easiest to envision for most and are somewhat iconic to him through the Pac-Man World games. It's no different than how everyone gives K. Rool a crown toss, the Blunderbuss, the helicopter pack, and a fourth move that is usually the shockwave from 64.
But it's not all Pac has. Not even within Pac-Man World 3, which also features the Red Ribbon Attack power up (a trail follows Pac-Man, and when he makes a loop with it, it closes and damages enemies in it) and the Electro-Shock power up, which can be compared to Force Lightning.

In total, he's got:
Chomp
Pac-Dot Shoot (Shoots a Pac-Dot from his palm)
Super Pac-Dot Shoot (Spins around while shooting 10 Pac-Dots)
Butt Bounce
Triple Butt Bounce (An increasingly stronger Butt Bounce that causes a shockwave upon the final bounce)
Rev Roll
Flip Kick
Steel Body (Pointless in Smash due to Metal Box)
Tiny Pac (Pointless in Smash due to Poison Mushroom)
Red Ribbon Attack
Electro-Shock
Fly Dots (Pac-Man eats a trail of these in a path; possible recovery move)
Magic Boots (These grant Pac-Man infinite jumps in Pac-Land; possible recovery move)
Power Pellets
Super Pac-Man (A power up in the game with the same name, this made Pac-Man larger, invulnerable, and gave him a Super Speed power with the Super Speed button held down; possible Final Smash material)
Magic Wand (A power up in Pac-Man Arrangement that turned the ghosts into edible presents; unlike the Power Pellet, once eaten, they will remain as floating eyeballs where there were eaten until the power up wears off or he eats them all)
Slingshot (How the player interacts with Pac-Man in Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures; the player does not control Pac-Man himself)
Pellet Gun (Similar to the Pac-Dot Shoot, this fires Pac-Dots at enemies; from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Yellow Ring)
Rope Swing (Think Spider-Man as Pac-Man spawns a rope on a ceiling to swing from; from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Green Ring)
Hammer Attack (from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Red Ring)
Bubble Jet (An attack used to attack underwater enemies in Pac-In-Time, only available when Pac-Man jumps through a Blue Ring, which allows him to swim)
Sonic Ray (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a Galaxian flagship)
Exhaust Smoke (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a Rally-X car)
Music Notes (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a trumpet)
Ice Breath (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a snowman)
Mini Pac-Men (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a little Pac-Man)


And there's probably more I'm missing. But anyone that says Pac-Man doesn't have potential clearly has not done their research.

 

[Frostwraith]

All characters have potential. That's not news.

 

[FlareHabanero]

All characters have potential. That's not news.

Alright, make a move set for the rock from Kersploosh! and a move set for a Tetris piece.

 

[Frostwraith]

Alright, make a move set for the rock from Kersploosh! and a move set for a Tetris piece.

I could think of something for a Tetris piece. No kidding.

 

[Croph]

There's even some Tetris block movesets floating around the internet like this one.

Haven't heard of Kersploosh!, though if a block could a have a unique moveset, I'm sure a rock could as well.

 

[Oasis_S]

The people who say "well anyone can have a unique moveset" don't really understand what's important.

 

[LaniusShrike]

In total, he's got:
Chomp
Pac-Dot Shoot (Shoots a Pac-Dot from his palm)
Super Pac-Dot Shoot (Spins around while shooting 10 Pac-Dots)
Butt Bounce
Triple Butt Bounce (An increasingly stronger Butt Bounce that causes a shockwave upon the final bounce)
Rev Roll
Flip Kick
Steel Body (Pointless in Smash due to Metal Box)
Tiny Pac (Pointless in Smash due to Poison Mushroom)
Red Ribbon Attack
Electro-Shock
Fly Dots (Pac-Man eats a trail of these in a path; possible recovery move)
Magic Boots (These grant Pac-Man infinite jumps in Pac-Land; possible recovery move)
Power Pellets
Super Pac-Man (A power up in the game with the same name, this made Pac-Man larger, invulnerable, and gave him a Super Speed power with the Super Speed button held down; possible Final Smash material)
Magic Wand (A power up in Pac-Man Arrangement that turned the ghosts into edible presents; unlike the Power Pellet, once eaten, they will remain as floating eyeballs where there were eaten until the power up wears off or he eats them all)
Slingshot (How the player interacts with Pac-Man in Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures; the player does not control Pac-Man himself)
Pellet Gun (Similar to the Pac-Dot Shoot, this fires Pac-Dots at enemies; from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Yellow Ring)
Rope Swing (Think Spider-Man as Pac-Man spawns a rope on a ceiling to swing from; from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Green Ring)
Hammer Attack (from Pac-In-Time when Pac-Man jumps through a Red Ring)
Bubble Jet (An attack used to attack underwater enemies in Pac-In-Time, only available when Pac-Man jumps through a Blue Ring, which allows him to swim)
Sonic Ray (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a Galaxian flagship)
Exhaust Smoke (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a Rally-X car)
Music Notes (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a trumpet)
Ice Breath (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a snowman)
Mini Pac-Men (One of the multiple attacks used to stun the ghosts in Pac and Pal after eating a little Pac-Man)


And there's probably more I'm missing. But anyone that says Pac-Man doesn't have potential clearly has not done their research.

*slow clap*
That's actually a pretty dang impressive set of options you collected. I do think a lot of people haven't really played the 3D Pacman games and therefore have trouble envisioning him doing anything other than move in a maze eating pellets.
As for Tetris pieces... I'd rather see Captain N using them in his moveset, hehe. I actually do think he'd be a pretty suitably "WTF" character like ROB.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Of course any character can have a fully operating moveset. Either
A) Think of random ****, like giving a couch a gun.
B) Put said character in a mech suit and make them a clone of Samus
C) Make them telekenetic fighters

I say this jokingly, of course.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The people who say "well anyone can have a unique moveset" don't really understand what's important.

Having a character with a foundation and synergy that can be utilized in a practical sense in a fighting game.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

*slow clap*
That's actually a pretty dang impressive set of options you collected. I do think a lot of people haven't really played the 3D Pacman games and therefore have trouble envisioning him doing anything other than move in a maze eating pellets.
As for Tetris pieces... I'd rather see Captain N using them in his moveset, hehe. I actually do think he'd be a pretty suitably "WTF" character like ROB.

3D pac man games have never been introduced to a large audience or even commonly enjoyed for that matter. If you ask anyone who considers themselves a pacman fan "Whats your favorite pac-man game?" their response will probably be the original arcade/ms. pacman shortly followed by "of course" or "duh".

If we were to look at the 3D pacman and 2D pacman as separate characters, we'd probably question why anyone would want the 3D pacman.
Choosing to have the 3D pacman with material drawn from 3D pacman games more-so emphasizes his fall from greatness than being a historic legend.

But, I will say that a retro pacman stage will work really really well and it would do its best to recognize the memorable parts of the franchise without forcing pac-man out into an environment hes not comfortable with.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Third party characters fighting for their spot in Smash?

Seriously, that's mostly everyone right? Only missing Heiachi? And Lloyd?

But damn, this MegaMan is ugly.

And I played some MegaMan 1 online, and I honestly suck at the game. I'll admit.

 

[Croph]

The people who say "well anyone can have a unique moveset" don't really understand what's important.

Would you mind enlightening me as to what's important? Surely no one's saying that just because a character can have a unique moveset warrants an inclusion. Of course popularity and Sakuari's credentials play an important role, and in the end, it is ultimately up to Sakurai to decide on who gets in...or am I missing something?

 

[Deleted member]

Third party characters fighting for their spot in Smash?

Seriously, that's mostly everyone right? Only missing Heiachi? And Lloyd?

But damn, this MegaMan is ugly.

And I played some MegaMan 1 online, and I honestly suck at the game. I'll admit.

I'd also throw in Layton as a potential candidate for a third-party spot. As I said before, I feel as third-parties will come down to either Mega Man, Layton, Pac-Man or Geno (if we're lucky, we might get two of these).

 

[Deleted member]

The people who say "well anyone can have a unique moveset" don't really understand what's important.

THANK YOU!

People are missing the point. ANYONE can come up with a generic campy moveset.

B- Fireball/Long Range/Chargeable/ Power Move
SideB- Approach Move
UpB-Vertival Recovery Move
DownB- AOF Attack

Yeah, we all get that Smash's command scheme is streamlined enough to allow ANYONE to come up with a moveset for ANYTHING. But this isn't the point. Making a moveset isn't just tossing a bunch of moves together that reference the canon. A character has to have a combat strategy behind them. A more clear example cannot be seen outside of Blazblue, where each character's strategy is lined out with their Drive.

All fighting games do that with their characters, Blazblue just makes it more obvious (believe it or not Blazblue is meant to be more casual among the competitive fighters). I even made a thread that explains all of the archetypes found in fighting games giving a rough outline of the general strategies found behind some characters and how it compares to Smash. Take a look at Smash and its characters, they all have a strategy behind their movesets, they aren't just meshed together. The better characters had more thought put into their strategies.

For those of you who haven't seen the thread, it's right here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-archetypes-in-smash-bros.331574/

In other words, for a character to be deemed interesting, they gotta have an interesting strategy to make players want to play as them. Think of this for a second. If you had to come up with a character that wasn't from another game, a completely original character, how would you design it to make it appealing to a wide audience. To make people wanna play as them. To make them look at the character and say,"wow, that sounds cool, I can't wait to try out that character." Smash Bros is riding on the fact that characters are already appealing based on their own games. However, this means that popular characters can get in, and be VERY boring. When people say someone is boring, they mean that in their canon material does not present them with anything that can make the character an appealing fighter.

PacMan is precicely THAT. There is literaly nothing about the fighter that can make him appealing.

For the OC thread look here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/oc-challenge-thread.335091/

Here people came together to come up with ideas for character concepts that can be appealing under an original concept, not drawing from any source material. It's a good reference point to see what I mean.

 

[FlareHabanero]

We are not going to get Geno, so unclog your brain and think realistically.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pac Man is still more boring than Donkey Kong though.

 

[Deleted member]

3D pac man games have never been introduced to a large audience or even commonly enjoyed for that matter. If you ask anyone who considers themselves a pacman fan "Whats your favorite pac-man game?" their response will probably be the original arcade/ms. pacman shortly followed by "of course" or "duh".

If we were to look at the 3D pacman and 2D pacman as separate characters, we'd probably question why anyone would want the 3D pacman.
Choosing to have the 3D pacman with material drawn from 3D pacman games more-so emphasizes his fall from greatness than being a historic legend.

But, I will say that a retro pacman stage will work really really well and it would do its best to recognize the memorable parts of the franchise without forcing pac-man out into an environment hes not comfortable with.

Except that they aren't separate characters, and Pac-Man has been in his "3D" and otherwise "legged" style before the World games. Hell, it was in the first Pac-Man that the "3D" design was used; it simply was not in-game, but rather on the original Japanese cabinets.

So what, are we now going to argue that Classic Sonic should be the Sonic in Smash since Modern Sonic represents the fall the series has gone through?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I would honestly say at this point, the only 3rd party characters that have any realistic chance are Mega Man, Pac-Man, Lloyd Irving, and Layton.

Of course, we got Snake for Brawl, so anything can happen I suppose. (I know Snake got in for a special reason, but regardless, it's a crapshoot)

 

[FlareHabanero]

By the way, characters that are more of a blank slate are better then characters that already have a foundation. This is because with such a character, you can be more creative with what they are capable of and are not bounded down by any already established archetypes.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I would really like a retro Pacman stage, hehe. Maybe it'd have ghosts running around with Pacman eating pellets. You could grab the fruit off the stage and Pacman would start chasing you and you could lead him into your enemies. Omnomnom.

They could, hear me out, REDESIGN a new 3D Pacman. One that's totally badass. With TEETH.
Just like the There Will be Brawl Kirby, but yellow. Hehe.

Oh, hi photoshop.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Except that they aren't separate characters, and Pac-Man has been in his "3D" and otherwise "legged" style before the World games. Hell, it was in the first Pac-Man that the "3D" design was used; it simply was not in-game, but rather on the original Japanese cabinets.

So what, are we now going to argue that Classic Sonic should be the Sonic in Smash since Modern Sonic represents the fall the series has gone through?

i'll buy what your saying if you take that cartoon design and give him a moveset based on the arcade game. But how pac-man fights will say a lot. Basing his attacks off those newer games will cause him to represent those games.

Compared to the new pac man games, sonic games are successful and still has fans actively buying the games.

 

[Deleted member]

We are not going to get Geno, so unclog your brain and think realistically.

I'm of the opinion that Geno is a very unlikely addition that probably won't ever happen, but I feel as his massive popularity pre-Brawl which still exists in decent form is good enough to say that he's a slight possibility. I was only mentioning third-parties that I felt were just possible. If I was looking for ones that I consider realistic, Geno and Pac-Man wouldn't be on the list.

 

[Diddy Kong]

By the way, characters that are more of a blank slate are better then characters that already have a foundation. This is because with such a character, you can be more creative with what they are capable of and are not bounded down by any already established archetypes.

Nothing needs to be said here.

MetaKnight had a great foundation of moves, and he all used them in Brawl with great succes.

 

[Oasis_S]

Having a character with a foundation and synergy that can be utilized in a practical sense in a fighting game.

THAT IS IMPORTANT, but I think you have really high standards for that, don't you?

@Croph: Sometimes they say that. Like for Krystal or Bowser Junior, I think you see that. I know that was true for me. But a lot of times when people say "anyone can have a moveset," they mean it in a... DISREGARDING WAY. Like it's NOT important. As if Sakurai's discerning eye would skim over the most important part of a character that actually means something to the game, AS A GAME.

Often you'll see people tack on gimmicks to characters where they don't fit, or pull a bunch of really obscure references for the sake of it, or just give off a general sense of... "TRYING TOO HARD." Characters that naturally lend themselves to fighting, with something that's actually INTERESTING and FRESH... those are the good ones. Not some stupid duck hunting dog that does dog stuff you have to write an essay to justify. Honestly, I don't really like reading detailed movesets. Should be able to see why a character is good in a sentence or two.

Obviously there are other factors that are also important, I just don't like when people seem to disregard the potential of what a character actually has to offer to a fighting game.

 

[Shorts]

1700 exactly ~

1. Megaman [Capcom] 930
2. Mewtwo [Pokemon] 811
3. Ridley [ Metroid] 624
4. Little Mac [Punch Out] 601
5. King K. Rool [Donkey Kong] 596
6. Waluigi [Super Mario] 501
7. Isaac [Golden Sun] 492
8. Roy [Fire Emblem] 444
9. Bowser Junior [Super Mario] 440
10. Ghirahim [Legend Of Zelda] 427
11. Palutena [Kid Icarus] 426
12. Krom [Fire Emblem] 390
13. Shulk [Xenoblade] 374
14. Pac - Man [Namco] 355
15. Krystal [StarFox] 347
16. Zoroark [Pokemon] 337
17. Geno [Square Enix] 317
18. Toad [Super Mario] 278
19. Takamaru [Murasame Castle] 242
20. Dixie Kong [Donkey Kong] 236
21. Samurai Goroh [F-Zero] 213
22. Saki [Sin & Punishment] 210
23. Bandana Dee [Kirby] 177
24. Black Shadow [F-Zero] 171
25. Mona [WarioWare] 163

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

THAT IS IMPORTANT, but I think you have really high standards for that, don't you?

@Croph: Sometimes they say that. Like for Krystal or Bowser Junior, I think you see that. I know that was true for me. But a lot of times when people say "anyone can have a moveset," they mean it in a... DISREGARDING WAY. Like it's NOT important. As if Sakurai's discerning eye would skim over the most important part of a character that actually means something to the game, AS A GAME.

Often you'll see people tack on gimmicks to characters where they don't fit, or pull a bunch of really obscure references for the sake of it, or just give off a general sense of... "TRYING TOO HARD." Characters that naturally lend themselves to fighting, with something that's actually INTERESTING and FRESH... those are the good ones. Not some stupid duck hunting dog that does dog stuff you have to write an essay to justify. Honestly, I don't really like reading detailed movesets. Should be able to see why a character is good in a sentence or two.

Obviously there are other factors that are also important, I just don't like when people seem to disregard the potential of what a character actually has to offer to a fighting game.

I agree with this. If you have to try hard to express why a character should be on the roster, it isn't even worth it. The characters should speak for themselves.

 

[FlareHabanero]

THAT IS IMPORTANT, but I think you have really high standards for that, don't you?

It's one of the bigger standards, and one of the more important details that people seem to take for granted.

There is a reason why Takamaru would work and why the dog from Duck Hunt wouldn't.

 

[Deleted member]

i'll buy what your saying if you take that cartoon design and give him a moveset based on the arcade game. But how pac-man fights will say a lot. Basing his attacks off those newer games will cause him to represent those games.

Compared to the new pac man games, sonic games are successful and still has fans actively buying the games.

Except that more than half of the attacks I listed came from "past" games. In fact, even the "latest" attacks (Red Ribbon Attack and Electro-Shock) are back in 2005.
So unless you are arguing that Pac-Man should represent ONLY the original arcade game and nothing else (which would be quite ********), your argument is not sound.