Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Shorts]

Takamaru and Mach Rider aren't either

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Mewtwo having a new form huh? And to think a couple users were still arguing yesterday that he would still likely be the same in SSB4 as he was in Melee. Seems I was right not to bother with it.

 

[Starphoenix]

And it's generally considered that those reasons are from the rear of a bull, as nearly all have a parallel within smash or one of Sakurai's other series. Balloon Fighter -> Olimar, Urban Champion -> Fox, Bubbles -> Zelda (in normal form, we see her use a grand total of one spell which holds Gannon back, and she doesn't have anything remotely similar in Smash), and Excitebike -> Wheelie from the Kirby series.

See, this is the other side of that coin Manly and I were discussing last night. The difference between Olimar, Fox, and Zelda, versus the rejected retro characters, is their fighting style naturally flow from their characters. Creativity is one thing, but forcing characters to behave in ways contrary to their nature is another entirely. Fox is an intergalactic mercenary, Zelda is a princess with magical powers, and Olimar has unlimited Pikmin at his disposal (as sick as it may seem). You also have to consider that Sakurai was trying to pick someone to satisfy a demographic, and be an interesting fighter at the same time. Ice Climbers did both those things.

 

[Second Power]

Fox is an intergalactic mercenary,

Yes, but a fighter pilot. In a sensible setting, his abilities in non-vehicle combat would be limited to redimentary gun shooting (flying a plane is hard, do you think he would have time to be trained in anything more complex than their version of a resolver?), similar to real life pilots. Smash turned him into a strong close range fighter.

Zelda is a princess with magical powers,

Except we don't see her fight with them. We only see her defend herself with them. Defending oneself =/= does not equal fighting. It takes two sides trying to inflict harm on one another to be a fight. If any of her incarnations had anything other than defensive powers, we would probably have seen them considering the amount of times she was attacked.

and Olimar has unlimited Pikmin at his disposal (as sick as it may seem).

He doesn't have those in the game. I can't remember what happens in his original game if you run out, but either way, he can't straight up pluck them from any random patch of ground. At least there are people in BF's game who can simply pull balloons out and blow them up.

You also have to consider that Sakurai was trying to pick someone to satisfy a demographic, and be an interesting fighter at the same time. Ice Climbers did both those things.

What demographic? I will concede that Ice Climbers are interesting (I love them), but it doesn't change the fact that they were niche even among retro fans.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Is Takamaru in something else?

Takamaru also appears in Samurai Warriors 3 (Wii version) and Captain Rainbow. Nazo no Murasame jo is also referenced in WarioWare D.I.Y. (Japanese version), Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and Pikmin 2.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'll say it again: things in this thread make my brain hurt, stahp

Blame the roster whores. We all know what I mean.

Yes, but a fighter pilot. In a sensible setting, his abilities in non-vehicle combat would be limited to redimentary gun shooting (flying a plane is hard, do you think he would have time to be trained in anything more complex than their version of a resolver?), similar to real life pilots. Smash turned him into a strong close range fighter.

The Starfox crew are mercenaries. I'm pretty sure they're more than well rounded for a number of missions. Though I never understood why Fox has always been almost entirely kicks in the Smash Bros. games though.

Except we don't see her fight with them. We only see her defend herself with them. Defending oneself =/= does not equal fighting. It takes two sides trying to inflict harm on one another to be a fight. If any of her incarnations had anything other than defensive powers, we would probably have seen them considering the amount of times she was attacked.

Actually, defending one self is one of the aspects of fighting. Aikido in particular prides itself in being mostly, if not entirely, defensive. Anyway, despite the lack of sources showing an agressive side, I doubt many will say that her moves were out of character in Smash. It's not like we saw her diving in ready to claw at you.

He doesn't have those in the game. I can't remember what happens in his original game if you run out, but either way, he can't straight up pluck them from any random patch of ground. At least there are people in BF's game who can simply pull balloons out and blow them up.

It's called adjusting for the game. If creative liberties weren't taken, Olimar would be absolutely horrible. Likewise, Link shouldn't have unlimited bombs or arrows in Smash yet he does anyway. It's both a mix of balancing and simply a rule of fun.

 

[Starphoenix]

Yes, but a fighter pilot. In a sensible setting, his abilities in non-vehicle combat would be limited to redimentary gun shooting (flying a plane is hard, do you think he would have time to be trained in anything more complex than their version of a resolver?), similar to real life pilots. Smash turned him into a strong close range fighter.

That isn't the point. The point is he is an anthropomorphic fighter pilot mercenary set in a highly advanced universe. It isn't a stretch for him to use blasters and shields and engage in hand-to-hand combat. His character allows for that creativity.

Except we don't see her fight with them. We only see her defend herself with them. Defending oneself =/= does not equal fighting. It takes two sides trying to inflict harm on one another to be a fight. If any of her incarnations had anything other than defensive powers, we would probably have seen them considering the amount of times she was attacked.

You're looking at it too literally.

He doesn't have those in the game. I can't remember what happens in his original game if you run out, but either way, he can't straight up pluck them from any random patch of ground. At least there are people in BF's game who can simply pull balloons out and blow them up.

99% of the roster does not function in the same way they do in their series. Smash Bros is not canon. Super Smash Bros is a unique fighting game, and as such, some things are adjusted to fit characters into the system.

What demographic? I will concede that Ice Climbers are interesting (I love them), but it doesn't change the fact that they were niche even among retro fans.

Sakurai was trying to pick an NES character, that is the demographic -- retro NES character. Ice Climbers made the best fighter out of the options he listed.

 

[Second Power]

That isn't the point. The point is he is an anthropomorphic fighter pilot mercenary set in a highly advanced universe. It isn't a stretch for him to use blasters and shields and engage in hand-to-hand combat. His character allows for that creativity.

Blasters and shields, yes. Hand-to-hand combat in a setting where guns are readily availible is half assed. It's not like with say, bows and arrows, where there (were at one point) definite pros and cons to using one versus early guns (bows were both more accurate and more lethal but much harder to use). Even if you use the old 'doesn't want to kill' excuse, there's most likely a non-fatal setting on his blaster, even if there isn't, a shot to the leg is almost never fatal with a normal gun so lasers that function identical to guns shouldn't be different. Even if we toss both those out of the window, tasers (or simply electricity based weaponry) can and should exist.

So, Olimar, Link, and the like are allowed not to function like they do in their source material, but for some reason, Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker can't?

 

[Starphoenix]

Blasters and shields, yes. Hand-to-hand combat in a setting where guns are readily availible is half *****. It's not like with say, bows and arrows, where there (were at one point) definite pros and cons to using one versus early guns (bows were both more accurate and more lethal but much harder to use). Even if you use the old 'doesn't want to kill' excuse, there's most likely a non-fatal setting on his blaster, even if there isn't, a shot to the leg is almost never fatal with a normal gun so lasers that function identical to guns shouldn't be different. Even if we toss both those out of the window, tasers (or simply electricity based weaponry) can and should exist.

I'm not even sure where you're trying to go with this.

So, Olimar, Link, and the like are allowed not to function like they do in their source material, but for some reason, Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker can't?

The point is that Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker did not offer as much to the game as Ice Climbers did. Unlike Fox or Capt. Falcon (mercenary and bounty hunter), Excite Biker is just an ordinary BMX racer; and Balloon Fighter is more limited than Popo and Nana. In this case it was about representation, and for those reasons the Ice Climbers were the better choice.

 

[Big-Cat]

Blasters and shields, yes. Hand-to-hand combat in a setting where guns are readily availible is half *****. It's not like with say, bows and arrows, where there (were at one point) definite pros and cons to using one versus early guns (bows were both more accurate and more lethal but much harder to use). Even if you use the old 'doesn't want to kill' excuse, there's most likely a non-fatal setting on his blaster, even if there isn't, a shot to the leg is almost never fatal with a normal gun so lasers that function identical to guns shouldn't be different. Even if we toss both those out of the window, tasers (or simply electricity based weaponry) can and should exist.

Even with guns and other things in their arsenal, even today's soldiers have to learn CQC (Close Quarters Combat) for when they're up close and/or when a gun is not available to them. There is no excuse as to why even a mercenary would be an exception to this.

 

[Second Power]

I'm not even sure where you're trying to go with this.

Hand-to-hand combat expertise makes no sense for Fox. That's all I was getting at. He shouldn't be able to pull off any martial arts even resembling a fighting style, but he does. Urban Champion probably could have gotten a street fighting based one that actually fits him.

The point is that Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker did not offer as much to the game as Ice Climbers did. Unlike Fox or Capt. Falcon (mercenary and bounty hunter), Excite Biker is just an ordinary BMX racer; and Balloon Fighter is more limited than Popo and Nana. In this case it was about representation, and Ice Climbers were the best choice.

Again, niether mercenary nor bounty hunter imply any skill in the kind of physical combat Fox and Capt. Falcon do. Combat, yes. But people don't always use there hands for it, especially when there are more efficient tools availible. Someone fighting on a bike sounds pretty cool to me. I can't come up with any other games with a character like that. Also, Balloon Fighter isn't more limited. If Ice Climbers could get ice based powers, why can't he get wind based ones? Makes just as much sense.

Let's go more into depth with the Ice Climbers. What makes them the best choice? They do absolutely no more fighting than Balloon Fighter does, they come from an obscure game, the only thing they do offer is their double gimmick. Really, is a single gimmick enough to qualify a character?

Even with guns and other things in their arsenal, even today's soldiers have to learn CQC (Close Quarters Combat) for when they're up close and/or when a gun is not available to them. There is no excuse as to why even a mercenary would be an exception to this.

Being trained in CQC is one thing. Being able to light yourself on fire and move at the speed of sound is a whole different can of worms.

The fact of the matter is, any character who has gotten into Smash runs on the rule of cool, and any character who will get into Smash will run on the rule of cool. You can't arbitrarily exclude some.

 

[Arcadenik]

Duck Hunt Dog for Smash!

 

[Big-Cat]

Being trained in CQC is one thing. Being able to light yourself on fire and move at the speed of sound is a whole different can of worms.

This is the same game where you have giant demon turtles, electric mice, angels, fabulous swordsmen, and Kamen Rider knockoffs all in the same game. Reality was well out on its ass ages ago.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Let's go more into depth with the Ice Climbers. What makes them the best choice? They do absolutely no more fighting than Balloon Fighter does, they come from an obscure game, the only thing they do offer is their double gimmick. Really, is a single gimmick enough to qualify a character?

Interesting character with a interesting yet practical fighting style. Plus they have the whole hammer and ice thing to go along with. I don't see any problem with them.
Balloon Fighter is centered around flying across the stage avoiding dangerous objects. That sort of gameplay seems to undermine Smashbros' unless you got really creative with his moveset. Basing a whole moveset off a bike seems difficult.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Duck Hunt Dog for Smash!

As Nintendog's replacement

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ice Climbers were probably chosen because they had more room to work with.

 

[Second Power]

This is the same game where you have giant demon turtles, electric mice, angels, fabulous swordsmen, and Kamen Rider knockoffs all in the same game. Reality was well out on its *** ages ago.

And reality suddenly makes a comeback with Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker? As I said in my previous post, they'll be just as cool as anyone else.

Interesting character with a interesting yet practical fighting style. Plus they have the whole hammer and ice thing to go along with. I don't see any problem with them.
Balloon Fighter is centered around flying across the stage avoiding dangerous objects. That sort of gameplay seems to undermine Smashbros' unless you got really creative with his moveset. Basing a whole moveset off a bike seems difficult.

Ice Climbers game is based around climbing to the top of a mountain while avoiding monsters. They don't use ice attacks in their game (you're actually rewarded for breaking ice in that game). Nothing about their playstyle encourages players to get to a highest ground in the stage for an advantage, which would be pretty cool. Aerial dominating Balloon Fighter, however, would be both do-able and awesome.

For a bike moveset, it's not like the entire thing has to be bike based attacks. You could throw in a few punches, but primarily use stuff like donuts and wheelies for attacks. Pinning a good playstyle for them is a bit difficult, but hey, ICs' probably had the same problem.

 

[Sid-cada]

Fun fact: Ice Climber was programmer Kazuaki Morita’s first game. He went on to be the main programmer for various other games, including Doki Doki Panic/Super Mario Brothers 2, Ocarina of Time, and Star Fox 64.
So yeah, I'd say the Ice Climbers are at least somewhat important.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Sakurai liked the Ice Climbers, that probably helped

 

[Diddy Kong]

I can't think of other possible moveset options for Fox besides what he already does.

 

[Fastblade5035]

TEH STAFFF!!111!

 

[Starphoenix]

Again, neither mercenary nor bounty hunter imply any skill in the kind of physical combat Fox and Capt. Falcon do. Combat, yes. But people don't always use there hands for it, especially when there are more efficient tools availible. Someone fighting on a bike sounds pretty cool to me. I can't come up with any other games with a character like that. Also, Balloon Fighter isn't more limited. If Ice Climbers could get ice based powers, why can't he get wind based ones? Makes just as much sense.

Fox and Falcon play upon their respective stereotypes, just like R.O.B.

Let's go more into depth with the Ice Climbers. What makes them the best choice? They do absolutely no more fighting than Balloon Fighter does, they come from an obscure game, the only thing they do offer is their double gimmick. Really, is a single gimmick enough to qualify a character?

They have a hammer and fight as a pair. That was obviously enough for Sakurai.

The fact of the matter is, any character who has gotten into Smash runs on the rule of cool, and any character who will get into Smash will run on the rule of cool. You can't arbitrarily exclude some.

It's not about arbitrarily excluding characters based upon our own opinions -- believe me, I'm no fan of that. In this instance it was about who made for the better character, and the Ice Climbers were better.

 

[Shorts]

4chan Smash threads get deleted so quick. Made this "Eberyonefuntimenorainhappyalways" roster.

Well, this is what I made.

Bottom four are costumes. Imagine SS Zelda to be paired with a SS Sheik. If I was going to add 3rd party characters, they would be in the four corners, and they would be Sonic, Snake, Megaman, and Geno.

 

[Second Power]

Fun fact: Ice Climber was programmer Kazuaki Morita’s first game. He went on to be the main programmer for various other games, including Doki Doki Panic/Super Mario Brothers 2, Ocarina of Time, and Star Fox 64.
So yeah, I'd say the Ice Climbers are at least somewhat important.

By the same logic, Sheriff should be in for being Shigeru Miyamoto's first game (though, in all fairness, he only did the artwork for the game).

Fox and Falcon play upon their respective stereotypes, just like R.O.B.

So, because Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker are completely original, they can't get an interesting moveset?

They have a hammer and fight as a pair. That was obviously enough for Sakurai.

You missed the question. This isn't about Sakurai, it's about the fans. Will the fans accept random characters for the sake of gimmicks? Should we expect Son Goku because of this? (Not the anime character, there's a support thread for him somewhere on this board)

It's not about arbitrarily excluding characters based upon our own opinions -- believe me, I'm no fan of that. In this instance it was about who made for the better character, and the Ice Climbers were better.

I meant excluding a character from getting the same treatment in Smash as everyone else. And, again, all you've given me is hammer and fights in pairs. Dedede had a hammer, didn't keep him from missing the bench mark twice. Once you get past the double gimmick, ICs have nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand Japanese, what exactly was said at the end of the trailer that hints at a new form?

By the same logic, Sheriff should be in for being Shigeru Miyamoto's first game (though, in all fairness, he only did the artwork for the game).

Last time I checked, a "fun fact" is not used as reasoning in a discussion.
Just serves as trivia.

 

[Second Power]

Last time I checked, a "fun fact" is not used as reasoning in a discussion.
Just serves as trivia.

Sorry, the "somewhat important" at the end of the post threw me off.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Even with guns and other things in their arsenal, even today's soldiers have to learn CQC (Close Quarters Combat) for when they're up close and/or when a gun is not available to them. There is no excuse as to why even a mercenary would be an exception to this.

Yet Mercenaries can't equip spears

 

[FlareHabanero]

This is the same game where you have giant demon turtles, electric mice, angels, fabulous swordsmen, and Kamen Rider knockoffs all in the same game. Reality was well out on its *** ages ago.

What, no mentions of murderous twin Eskimos, puffballs that murder you by sleeping, and 2D black people that pulls out random stuff out of their ass?

 

[Big-Cat]

Now don't be silly.

 

[Fastblade5035]

What, no mentions of murderous twin Eskimos, puffs balls that murder you by sleeping, and 2D black people that pulls out random stuff out of their ***?

Or fat italians who kill you with farts, old men in armor, a princess who's a guy and a chick, and a ****ton of space furries with guns

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not to mention a supersonic hegdehog. A warrior who can use every weapon. A cartoon version of that warrior and a butt load of animals created to fight.

Either way. Since Charizard is back in the anime as a recurring character (Ash just had him rejoin his party), I think Charizard is going to stay a part of Pokemon Trainer for sure.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Oh, definitely. Hopefully this time he'll have his epic shiny form as an alternate color...

 

[lobotheduck21]

Made one change, replacing K. Rool for Sheriff

You've just lost ALL credibility

 

[FlareHabanero]

Now don't be silly.

I don't play the silly game. I am lacking in the silliness.

 

[peeup]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pit, Balloon Fighter, and Ice Climbers were all vying for a spot in Melee's roster. ICs won out probably due to the new gimmick of a double character.

The remaining two I also believe were vying for a spot in Brawl's roster, though this could be incorrect. For some reason or another Pit won out. My guess is that Sakurai saw potential in a new Kid Icarus game and wanted Pit to be relevant again so people would buy the game. But that's just speculation.

For whatever reason, though, Pit got in and Balloon Fighter didn't. Now I would highly expect Balloon Fighter to get in Smash 4.

That is, of course, if I was right about Balloon Fighter being considered for Brawl, which I could very much be wrong about.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't play the silly game. I am lacking in the silliness.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pit, Balloon Fighter, and Ice Climbers were all vying for a spot in Melee's roster. ICs won out probably due to the new gimmick of a double character.

The remaining two I also believe were vying for a spot in Brawl's roster, though this could be incorrect. For some reason or another Pit won out. My guess is that Sakurai saw potential in a new Kid Icarus game and wanted Pit to be relevant again so people would buy the game. But that's just speculation.

For whatever reason, though, Pit got in and Balloon Fighter didn't. Now I would highly expect Balloon Fighter to get in Smash 4.

That is, of course, if I was right about Balloon Fighter being considered for Brawl, which I could very much be wrong about.

No, Balloon Fighter definitely wasn't competing against Pit for a spot in Brawl.

It wouldn't have been a contest. Pit was way more requested and wanted

 

[Second Power]

No, Balloon Fighter definitely wasn't competing against Pit for a spot in Brawl.

It wouldn't have been a contest. Pit was way more requested and wanted

Yeah, and now Takamaru holds that spot. On the bright side, each game reduces the competition among retros. It'll be interesting to see who takes Takamaru's spot as the retro of choice after he's confirmed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

K.Rool, for Sherrif? Guess what I want to shoot now...

Shortie's list: disagree with Shulk, Krystal, Waddle Dee, Zoroark and Sheik. Would definitely throw in Chrom, Impa and Toad.

 

[FlareHabanero]

If I recall, there was no "competition" between Pit, Ice Climbers, and Balloon Fighter. It was simply another rumor made up.