Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Diddy Kong]

1, not everyone plays that way with Zelda/Shiek
2, how is it ridiculous?

Cause basically nobody plays both the characters. Maybe like 20% of all Zelda and Sheik plagers use both characters. And even that's a stretch.

Solo Sheik in the from of Impa would free Zelda from his weird style she has now.

 

[SmashShadow]

Mewtwo wasn't completely useless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XP5Q5TJPZ0
although that Falco wasn't that great...there were several things he had that were useful. I'd say he needs a 30-40% overhaul.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I do kind of wish people would at least consider how a character would work. I mean clinging onto your wet dream characters like Tingle is all fine and dandy, but you got to think for a second to see if it would work out in a practical sense.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Cause basically nobody plays both the characters. Maybe like 20% of all Zelda and Sheik plagers use both characters. And even that's a stretch.

Solo Sheik in the from of Impa would free Zelda from his weird style she has now.

So we went from Mewtwo, back to Impa... wow.

 

[Shorts]

Cause basically nobody plays both the characters. Maybe like 20% of all Zelda and Sheik plagers use both characters. And even that's a stretch.

*ignoring the obvious Impa plugs*

Do you really think when people play as Zelda/Sheik they don't EVER switch? Where are you getting your stats? You're just saying that. And even IF that was true, you're only measuring the competitive scene, not the millions of casual players.

Also, in brawl, Shelda ranks higher on the tier list than Sheik and Zelda alone. Jus sayin'

I do kind of wish people would at least consider how a character would work. I mean clinging onto your wet dream characters like Tingle is all fine and dandy, but you got to think for a second to see if it would work out in a practical sense.

How is Tingle -overall- not practical? You didn't even critique a possible moveset, just said "Tingle isn't practical"

 

[Frostwraith]

This thread is moving fast... as always.

LOL @ Diddy Kong still doing is Impa propaganda...

When I play Zelda, I switch between her and Sheik. Anyone has problems with that? Methinks not.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I do kind of wish people would at least consider how a character would work. I mean clinging onto your wet dream characters like Tingle is all fine and dandy, but you got to think for a second to see if it would work out in a practical sense.

Obviously I do, but it's secondary. I trust Sakurai's imagination on that. If they told me R.O.B. was going to be in Brawl, I would have had doubts. He works fine. Ganondorf has amazing moveset possibilities: he's boring and sucks.
At this point I simply hope for the characters to show up and then to play good, not the other way around.

 

[SmashShadow]

Also, in brawl, Shelda ranks higher on the tier list than Sheik and Zelda alone. Jus sayin'

Isn't that kinda obvious though because if you use two characters you get both of their matchups? If you're facing a bad match-up all you have to do is switch to the one with a better one.

 

[Diddy Kong]

*ignoring the obvious Impa plugs*

Do you really think when people play as Zelda/Sheik they don't EVER switch? Where are you getting your stats? You're just saying that. And even IF that was true, you're only measuring the competitive scene, not the millions of casual players.

Also, in brawl, Shelda ranks higher on the tier list than Sheik and Zelda alone. Jus sayin'



How is Tingle -overall- not practical? You didn't even critique a possible moveset, just said "Tingle isn't practical"

Shielda is only useful in Brawl cause Zelda beats King DeDeDe, while Sheik loses to him. All other match ups, Sheik still has the upperhand against everyone compared to Zelda.

Yes, even casuals don't switch much. Go ask the Brawl and Melee Zelda and Sheik boards if they ever switch. They will tell you they won't.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Isn't that kinda obvious though because if you use two characters you get both of their matchups? If you're facing a bad match-up all you have to do is switch to the one with a better one.

So basically what you're saying is stick with Sheik.

 

[---]

Is it just me, or is Mewtwo looking a little bit more cat-like these days?

One Genesect for every drive?

Nice to see Ash's reaction pretty much confirm that it's the same Mewtwo from the first movie. Mewtwo also looks a hell of a lot faster too. Looks like they're giving him the same character development we saw in the manga, just with him fighting Genesect instead of Deoxys. Good stuff.

Honestly I don't give a **** about Smash at this point, it just feels great to see some childhood memories come back. You've set the bar pretty high now TPC, don't let me down.

 

[JOE!]

Personally I would not mind wavedashing being absent, but I would appreciate L-cancelling returning. The ability to reduce the lag of landing is pretty useful actually.

Funny, I'm the exact opposite lol.

Wavedashing and by extention wavelands would be awesome and add to the movement options that make smash stand out, Lcanceling can come or go with a bunch of factors.

also, check this out speculator peoples:
http://smashboards.com/threads/general-moveset-thread.331275/

if you scroll down, I have 2 tutorials there to help formulate characters

 

[Shorts]

So let me get this straight, blanket statements, then Impa plug?

Gotcha. Zelda and Sheik will probably still be dual characters.

 

[FlareHabanero]

You've set the bar pretty high now TPC, don't let me down.

It's a Pokemon movie. That alone should tell you they've let you down.

 

[Deleted member]

Meh, I disagree. How was Captain Falcon suitable then? He's basically the most beloved Smash character and if you look at it, judging his games, he had the most uninteresting moveset possibilities out of all characters. I want a character basing on how much I like him. Then if he sucks, too bad. Even Layton for now can't offer much. I want him anyway. Why? 'Cause he's cool.
It's boring to look at moveset before than characters. At this point let's just put a bunch of random fighting characters like Heihachi and Ryu. They'd offer a great moveset in Smash.
Look what they did with R.O.B. I find him one of the most amusing and fun character to play as in Brawl.

Captain Falcon works because he's based off of Kamen Rider, ANY Kamen Rider based character is guaranteed to be awesome. Falcon is actually the BEST kind of character because he's a blank slate to work on, hence why I think Takamaru, Mach Rider, and FE Lords are awesome choices for characters. Because they have just enough to give ideas on what they would do, but give you plenty of room to work with as far as their moveset. Same for Zelda and Sheik. Link on the other had is a ****ing hard character to work with properly because he already has a premade moveset. Other character that are great additions are characters from Action Games like Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, DMC and so on, because they are essentially fighting games.

PacMan on the other hand, DOES have move potential, but none of it is very original or interesting. But we've talked about that endlessly so lets not go there.

"Cause he's cool" is such a shallow reason if you think about it. It's like looking forward to a Michael Bay movie. "I like explosions cause they're cool." Yet, you decide to skip out on perhaps a more 'boring' movie with an incredible narrative and much more depth. I hate to be the 2DEEP4U guy, but think about it, it's like the guys who like Tarantino films because they're violent, or the Matrix because "LOL BADASS ACTION SCENES AND SCIFI"... It's like, Dude, you can't even being to comprehend the amount of thought put into making that ****, and just how deep that **** goes... It's Plato's 'Allegory of the Cave' man, all the layers of depth and awakening.

It's the same EXACT scenario except that in videogames, if people who think like that win, then everyone else who enjoys much more depth in something loses. I'll be honest, it's precisely that 'simple satisfaction' from the consumer that's killing the videogame industry. I will forever rake on CoD fans for their ****ty game, not because I'm jealous of their fun, I could give a rats as about that, but it's because their enjoyment of their ****ty game that gives it such success that devs become lazy and I'm forced to eat **** and wait around for 'decent' games to come out, decent games that aren't trying to be CoD clones in some way.

You may find looking at movesets boring, but that's how fighting games are made. Game design IS boring. It's not just jotting ideas down on paper and hitting a magic key to get it done. A LOT of thought it put into making a good game. Go play DKC1, just run through it, and pay attention to the enemy placement. I swear, Rare literally had to run empty levels to think of where they would put what to make players think and react. It's a crash-course in Pavlovian Psychology. Fighting games are no different I'll say it again. Look, do this, design a character from scratch. A character for Smash, it can't be an IP. I want you to think of the concept, design, fighting style, strategy and movepool. All Original IP, you don't have to draw it, just write a summary, but take a second to realize how much thought is put into making a successful character.

Mewtwo flopped because little thought was given to him, and depspite his potential, not much of it was harnessed to stick to the Pokemon Movie Canon, which was Sakurai's inspiration. Go play BlazBlue man, give it a run, just play through all the character, and just LOOK at how different and unique each character is, and how well they do what they are supposed to do.

A character' success in Smash 4 will depend on that game's mechanics, and how much thought is put into building characters around those mechanics. Mewtwo who'll likely be a copy of his Melee version will likely remain uninteresting, even if he's better than in Melee.

Personally I would not mind wavedashing being absent, but I would appreciate L-cancelling returning. The ability to reduce the lag of landing is pretty useful actually.

I didn't like L-Cancelling, just remove landing lag for everyone and give us Jump, Special and Dash Cancels, that's all you really need, and by adding Jump cancels you make aerial combat more prominent.

Quoth the pages, 404.


Also, I'm just a bit curious. Manly, what is your opinion of Muddy Mole as a wildcard retro to go alongside Takamaru? I feel he could offer a unique playstyle, but wanted your opinion on the matter, since you like characters with unique playstyles, and all.

I'm not familiar with the character, but the idea of a character that can dig sounds like an interesting and unexplored one, same for the purely Psyonic character that still lies and will remain untapped in Mewtwo.

 

[Starphoenix]

I do kind of wish people would at least consider how a character would work. I mean clinging onto your wet dream characters like Tingle is all fine and dandy, but you got to think for a second to see if it would work out in a practical sense.

Again, you are projecting you're own opinion that in no way reflects the practicality of Tingle or any other character. How practical would have Mr. Game and Watch, R.O.B, Ivysaur or even Bowser have seemed to us at the time? If practicality is really what matters, then kiss Ridley goodbye, because either way you slice that lug down, he isn't going to be very practical.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I meant for a moveset. As in, how characters do varies moves and how they compliment each other. Simply having capabilities is not much to talk about if you have no idea on how those capabilities can be worked on.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Melee Mewtwo with serious buffs, a Command grab Side B ala Bowser's Side B in Brawl, and an entire new Down B will make Mewtwo sexy in Smash already. No doubt about this. I liked much of his moveset in Melee, sans Confusion and Disable. So buffs and replacements for those moves would be good enough for me already. Sure, more Psychic blasts in his moveset ala Lucario / Lucas would also be nice of coarse, but I'd settle with this alone already, easily.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Melee Mewtwo with serious buffs, a Command grab Side B ala Bowser's Side B in Brawl, and an entire new Down B will make Mewtwo sexy in Smash already. No doubt about this. I liked much of his moveset in Melee, sans Confusion and Disable. So buffs and replacements for those moves would be good enough for me already. Sure, more Psychic blasts in his moveset ala Lucario / Lucas would also be nice of coarse, but I'd settle with this alone already, easily.

I like the concept of disable it just needs to be better

Confusion can just go

 

[Deleted member]

Don't judge my words so meticulously please, lol.
It's just that exploiting glitches or unwanted mechanics in a game to play is boring. I mean I watch some pro match on Youtube and they're fun, but they kinda killed the meaning behind the game if you ask me.
Let's say that I would rather have a mechanic that was expected by the developer.

Both Wavedashing and L-Cancelling were programmed in by the developers. A Cancel is NEVER a glitch. Wavedashing is up for debate, but not L-Cancelling.

2nd, Combos in Street Fighter began as a glitch, and now they are a Standard in ALL fighting games. It may seem boring to you, but... that's what makes the fighting genre...

Not everyone thinks about the roster in terms of gameplay. Super Smash Bros has been, and always will be, about the characters themselves more often then not. As far as knowing whether a character will play like crap or not, that is completely subjective. There are many characters I feel will be mediocre or uninteresting, but other people feel differently than I do.

The fans may not, but developers certainly do, and it's a very important factor to keep in mind. Smash Bros is a Game first and foremost, not a movie or comic book. The characters are ALWAYS secondary to the gameplay, as the most important thing for a game to do is entertain and engage the player. 2nd, it is a Fighting game, meaning the competitive aspect is ALSO important, no I don't mean tourney play, but rather, having balanced and polished gameplay is a MUST for all fighters. A fight is always a competition and thus, making sure the fight is fair and diverse (it IS a game after all) is important. The games that fail at these points fail either at being good fighting games, or fail at being more deep than a couple hours of gameplay.

You want an example of a game that went all out on character fanservice and neglected gameplay depth thinking the characters were enough to get it to do good? Go play PSABR.


Just to expand on this, think of it this way:

Looking at a fighting game on character fanservice alone is like looking at the next Zelda game on story alone. Now do you understand where I'm coming from?

 

[---]

It's a Pokemon movie. That alone should tell you they've let you down.

I really only disliked movies 12 and 13. After 12's first trailer, Arceus and the space trio were complete letdowns and the new characters were lame. 13's plot didn't make any sense and Zoroark was boring. Call me a blind fanboy, but I have a lot hope this will be as good as Movie 8.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No I don't like it really... Something like Barrier, Calm Mind / Meditation (stat buffing move, like Lucas's Offense Up in P:M) or, younknow, anything would be better than Disable. However, I might change my mind if it becomes actually usable.

 

[SmashShadow]

So basically what you're saying is stick with Sheik.

Until you need to recover from far distances.

 

[Diddy Kong]

And then get killed cause you play as Zelda.

 

[SmashShadow]

And then get killed cause you play as Zelda.

And that's where you hope you can get a hit in with enough KB to give you time to change back

 

[FlareHabanero]

Zelda's recovery is no better then Sheik's actually. While Farore's Wind does travel farther, it's compensated by Zelda's poor second jump. Sheik is pretty much the inverted case.

 

[Starphoenix]

The fans may not, but developers certainly do, and it's a very important factor to keep in mind. Smash Bros is a Game first and foremost, not a movie or comic book. The characters are ALWAYS secondary to the gameplay, as the most important thing for a game to do is entertain and engage the player. 2nd, it is a Fighting game, meaning the competitive aspect is ALSO important, no I don't mean tourney play, but rather, having balanced and polished gameplay is a MUST for all fighters. A fight is always a competition and thus, making sure the fight is fair and diverse (it IS a game after all) is important. The games that fail at these points fail either at being good fighting games, or fail at being more deep than a couple hours of gameplay.

Yes, and Sakurai has done a good job of balancing that dichotomy for two games now. Yet, at the end of the day, Super Smash Bros sells because of the characters. Period. Now, for any other company -- looking at you Sony -- this could be an excuse to take the easy way out and deliver a sub-par game. Sakurai does not develop that way, regardless of how people may feel. He has always managed to offer fans what they want (Mario, Bowser, Metaknight), and what they don't expect (Capt. Falcon, Mr. G&W, R.O.B); all while still offering enjoyable gameplay that still keeps fans coming back. Sure, Sakurai could do better in areas, but overall, he's already done a heck of job with the series to date.

Now, back onto the character that started all this ruckus. Very few people I know have a problem with Mewtwo as most whom played -- or still play -- are like myself and typically played the game with their family. The only real complaints I've ever seen have come from the Melee-ites (most benign term off the top of my head).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hope, yeah...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Hanging onto what would make people excited is a good yes, but at the same time you got to make an effort to make everything feel satisfying and balanced. I mean you could have 200 characters, but it doesn't mean much if 90% of them are lazy reskins.

 

[SmashShadow]

Zelda's recovery is no better then Sheik's actually. While Farore's Wind does travel farther, it's compensated by Zelda's poor second jump. Sheik is pretty much the inverted case.

Though Zelda has some advantages like greater aerial mobility and less ending lag on her recovery and it having some protection when she reappears(PM and Brawl I think).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For people arguing that Mewtwo shouldn't come back because he was bad in Melee. What about Kirby? He's lower than Mewtwo for crying out load. Should he be removed?

 

[FlareHabanero]

For people arguing that Mewtwo shouldn't come back because he was bad in Melee. What about Kirby? He's lower than Mewtwo for crying out load. Should he be removed?

That argument doesn't work because he returned in Brawl with improvements. One of the first characters revealed in fact.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That argument doesn't work because he returned in Brawl with improvements. One of the first characters revealed in fact.

So hypothetically, why couldn't the same apply for Mewtwo? They did it once. They can do it again.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, and Sakurai has done a good job of balancing that dichotomy for two games now. Yet, at the end of the day, Super Smash Bros sells because of the characters. Period. Now, for any other company -- looking at you Sony -- this could be an excuse to take the easy way out and deliver a sub-par game. Sakurai does not develop that way, regardless of how people may feel. He has always managed to offer fans what they want (Mario, Bowser, Metaknight), and what they don't expect (Capt. Falcon, Mr. G&W, R.O.B); all while still offering enjoyable gameplay that still keeps fans coming back. Sure, Sakurai could do better in areas, but overall, he's already done a heck of job with the series to date.

Now, back onto the character that started all this ruckus. Very few people I know have a problem with Mewtwo as most are like myself and typically played the game with their family. The only real complaints I've ever seen have come from the Melee-ites (most benign term off the top of my head).

Well, with this we get in the typical Melee vs. Brawl debate, and what makes Melee a fundamentally better game.

The rest of that argument goes with what I already said a couple posts back with the whole 'allegory of the cave' deal. I don't need to reiterate myself in that.

Anyway, just stop for a second and think, the BEST characters in 64 and Melee, are the ones that stray the most from their game canon and gave Sakurai the most to work with (I mean best as in best overall, not best competitively). Now I understand you have faith in Sakurai as a game designer, but like with Manga, if fans force an artist to do what he may not want to, prepare to eventually be disappointed with progressively worse games. BEST EXAMPLE: Metal Gear Solid 2 vs. Metal Gear Solid 4, ANYONE who says MGS4 is a better game than 2, needs to get their head examined. MGS4 is essentially Kojima's complaint to the fanbase for demanding more out of a finished franchise and not being satisfied with the end result due to being to too stupid to see its brilliance, and demanding the superficial (More Grafix, more of the same, more story). MGS4 is basically, "oh you wanted answers, here have your ****ing NANOMACHINES, forced drama and cop-out story." Is MGS4 a good game? Yes, most definitely. Did it sell well? Damn right it did. But it fails to live up to the brilliance found in the previous 3 games, and THAT'S my point.

So the point is, people are reluctant about Mewtwo for valid reasons. He's not interesting. People asked why, and the answer was given. Are most of the Melee fans, most likely, but that does not discredit their opinion, as I've said it many times before, take the moment to empathise with others and realize why they feel that way, you'll learn a couple things and it will open your horizons.

I think it's pretty evident all of the opinions ITT are divided into two factions, people who liked Melee more and thus seek more depth, and people who like Brawl more and thus seek more superficial aspects. Failing to look at the deeper parts of what make Smash Bros, Smash Bros will ultimately lead to the demise of the series mark my words. Don't believe me? Look at Zelda.

 

[JOE!]

Because kirby wa sin 64. This is the same reason Jigglypuff is still around.. *sigh*

 

[Frostwraith]

That argument doesn't work because he returned in Brawl with improvements. One of the first characters revealed in fact.

That argument has no sort of validity.

By that "logic", Ganondorf will be removed from the next Smash Bros.

Any tweaks can be done between Smash Bros. titles or is there any law demanding that throughout the history of Smash, all characters must remain the same?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Melee Mewtwo is leagues above Brawl Ganondorf. LEAGUES.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, with this we get in the typical Melee vs. Brawl debate, and what makes Melee a fundamentally better game.

The rest of the argument goes with what I already said a couple posts back with the whole 'allegory of the cave' deal. I don't need to reiterate myself in that.

Anyway, just stop for a second and think, the BEST characters in 64 and Melee, are the ones that stray the most from their game canon and gave Sakurai the most to work with (I mean best as in best overall, not best competitively). Now I understand you have faith in Sakurai as a game designer, but like with Manga, if fans force an artist to do what he may not want to, prepare to eventually be disappointed with progressively worse games. BEST EXAMPLE: Metal Gear Solid 2 vs. Metal Gear Solid 4, ANYONE who says MGS4 is a better game than 2, needs to get their head examined. MGS4 is essentially Kojima's complaint to the fanbase for demanding more out of a finished franchise and not being satisfied with the end result due to being to too stupid to see its brilliance, and demanding the superficial (More Grafix, more of the same, more story). MGS4 is basically, "oh you wanted answers, here have your ****ing NANOMACHINES."

So the point is, people are reluctant about Mewtwo for valid reasons. He's not interesting. People asked why, and the answer was given. Are most of the Melee fans, most likely, but that does not discredit their opinion, as I've said it many times before, take the moment to empathise with others and realize why they feel that way, you'll learn a couple things and it will open your horizons.

I think it's pretty evident all of the opinions ITT are divided into two factions, people who liked Melee more and thus seek more depth, and people who like Brawl more and thus seek more superficial aspects. Failing to look at the deeper parts of what make Smash Bros, Smash Bros will ultimately lead to the demise of the series mark my words. Don't believe me? Look at Zelda.

Well someone's pessimistic.

Just think about a couple of things.

Mewtwo is the second most wanted character in the poll. He's interesting enough to garner attention and to have people want him back.
MGS4 was a pretty successful game. It was successful for a reason. Because people enjoyed it. (Ib4 he says people are stupid)
And IMO you sound like some prophet who won't be satisfied until his prediction comes true. No offense. You just sound like one right now.

As much as we like to hate on popular things on the internet, we have to remember they are popular for a reason. Almost always, it's a good reason. It's hard to be popular and bad at the same time.

 

[FlareHabanero]

As much as we like to hate on popular things on the internet, we have to remember they are popular for a reason. Almost always, it's a good reason. It's hard to be popular and bad at the same time.

Madden confirmed for greatest video game series ever, you heard it here first! It's popular which means it's good!

 

[Oasis_S]

It's hard to be popular and bad at the same time.

And Waluigi pulls it off beautifully.