Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Deleted member]

So why go through the trouble of making

and

if they can just have

instead?

To obviously seperate the series in representation outside of characters. Would the Kat and Ana Assist have made sense using the Mario icon? Absolutely not.
Would stages based on Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story have made sense as Mario stages when they are from Yoshi titles? (Melee's Yoshi's Island not counted, as that was from Super Mario World) Not really.
And before you bring up Luigi's Mansion, bear in mind that it was a single game until this year while Yoshi and Wario have their own established franchises.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

So why go through the trouble of making

and

if they can just have

instead?

Because Arcadenik is not Sakurai.

 

[Frostwraith]

@Frostwraith: Dr. Mario is actually not my "most wanted". I would prefer if my Melee main came back with being more of a doctor-based fighter like Skullgirls' Valentine (but more lighthearted and comical, obviously), but if he doesn't come back, I still have my Brawl main, Wario.
My most wanted is someone that I rarely talk about unless he's brought up (which is quite rarely). Shadow, who Habanero will probably ***** about for being a "filler rehash" .

I was just joking about that. Don't mind me.
But, still, I found interesting that your most wanted character is Shadow.

Supporting a character based on likelihood is rather shallow, I agree. It's adding these unlikely but awesome characters to prediction rosters because "their moves are cool" or "their game is criminally underrated" that gets irksome after a while.

Totally agreed. I support the characters I like and think that could have interesting movesets.

Ghirahim is so high because goddamnit he is likeable. He's got what Midna has (that sassy personality) but he excells in personality. Really, he's not as easily forgotten. Also, he has competition, I promise you. Maybe not in popularity, but in terms of actual candidates. Toon Zelda and Tingle kinda give him a huge run for his money.

What I find interesting about Ghirahim (and also Hades from KI:Uprising) is that they aren't simply generic villains going like "Muahaha I'm evil!" and receiving little to no development as characters.

Ghirahim's flamboyant personality that turns into pure insanity as the game progresses is also an indicator of personality. This is because he has a mission, because he's loyal to his master, Demise, much like Fi is loyal to Link. His constant defeats mean that he's unable to fulfill his mission and fail Demise and thus grows desperate and even more insane.

 

[Moon Monkey]

To obviously seperate the series in representation outside of characters. Would the Kat and Ana Assist have made sense using the Mario icon? Absolutely not.
Would stages based on Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story have made sense as Mario stages when they are from Yoshi titles? (Melee's Yoshi's Island not counted, as that was from Super Mario World) Not really.
And before you bring up Luigi's Mansion, bear in mind that it was a single game until this year while Yoshi and Wario have their own established franchises.

This was the point I was getting at. I was just questioning Arcadenik to see why he personally grouped them together. Often times when I say 'I'd rather Sakurai keep the Mario series at 4 reps and focus on...' I often-times get the response 'what are you talking about there are 6 Mario characters...'

 

[Deleted member]

Because the characters themselves are Mario characters.
They debuted within the Mario franchise and later branched off. Having a different icon doesn't magically make them completely seperate.
So to group them together for an arbitrary list makes sense.

 

[Oasis_S]

This reminds me when a bunch of weaklings would say, because they thought adding two Mario characters would be too much, that one could change Paper Mario's icon to something else to represent the Paper Mario series, and this would somehow magically make him not a Mario character and thus make room for Toad/Junior.

I am not happy about this reminder and I wish I could use my new avatar to illustrate this.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Paper Mario as a whole is a sketchy character.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi and Wario are both part of the Mario "shared universe" so to speak, and given that they really don't have many reps to theirselves, I guess he figured it was just best to group them with Mario. *shrugs*

As is just about every other video game character out there:

>Link is connected to Samus, who's connected to Kirby, who's connected to DK, who's connected to Banjo, who' ultimately connected to Snake and even Yugi from Yu-Gi-Oh.

When will people realize that Wario and Yoshi are both considered individual franchises by Nintendo even if they cameo and guest star in Mario titles?

 

[Deleted member]

This reminds me when a bunch of weaklings would say, because they thought adding two Mario characters would be too much, that one could change Paper Mario's icon to something else to represent the Paper Mario series, and this would somehow magically make him not a Mario character and thus make room for Toad/Junior.

I am not happy about this reminder and I wish I could use my new avatar to illustrate this.

Yeah, the only "Mario" that can theoretically work for is Dr. Mario, since the Dr. Mario franchise is said to be non-canon to the rest of the series by Miyamoto. (That, and Brawl really put measures into trying to keep it seperated with having the stickers be seperate from the Mario ones and even the Chill theme being counted as a "Retro" song rather than a "Mario" one.)

EDIT: @Manly: It's not guest starring if you appear in the series you debuted in.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Why would Serebii want Mewtwo out? I didn't know this and it's weird. Obviously he wasn't cut due to Serebii wanting him out lol, though it's interesting.

Anyway if it was for me, we would have got Zant in Brawl and Ghirahim in Sm4sh. I don't care if they're "one-time" characters. Ice Climbers too are. Lucas is. I don't care, if the character is awesome and presents a moveset that interesting, he should be in. Now it's probably too late for Zant, I hope Ghirahim doesn't miss the train though. One of the best villains in the Zelda series imho, probably the most underrated one (Skyward Sword being the most underrated game).

On the other hand, I'm hoping the Ganondorf we have now gets cut and we get Toon Ganondorf. With hopefully a revamped moveset which makes him an interesting character again. Sadly he can't be in the game as an alternate costume of the "normal" Ganondorf I think, they're too much different as body shape and moveset style (I want him with double swords obviously). We'll see, it'll be interesting though since he didn't even appear in Skyward Sword, so if they follow Brawl's way of doing things, Sakurai would have to restyle not only Sheik, but Ganondorf as well.

I believe it's because how awful of a character Mewtwo was in Melee. He was a little too floaty and weak after all. Alll he needs is a buff and and more weight.

@Oasis S That idea for Takamaru's costume is equaly as funny as the idea we had for Link being a secret boss in Return to the Murasame Castle. XD

 

[Deleted member]

Because the characters themselves are Mario characters.
They debuted within the Mario franchise and later branched off. Having a different icon doesn't magically make them completely seperate.
So to group them together for an arbitrary list makes sense.

Banjo debuted in Diddy Kong Racing a DK title but he's in his own franchise... Not a DK character.

 

[Oasis_S]

Paper Mario as a whole is a sketchy character.

Yeah, I mean, being made of paper is cool and all, nice visual style, but no one ever made use of that in movesets. If you're going to ignore the one thing that actually makes him stand out from Mario, thus worth adding, then forget about him.

Anyway there's no way around the fact that he's another Mario. With my love of variety I just can't accept him.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Mewtwo is going to suck regardless due to the very conflicting attributes. Mewtwo is one of those characters that cannot simply be fixed by buffing due to the moveset having extremely little synergy.

 

[Deleted member]

Banjo debuted in Diddy Kong Racing a DK title but he's in his own franchise... Not a DK character.

Diddy Kong Racing isn't really a Donkey Kong game, now is it? OOP. Guess Diddy is a guest star in the Donkey Kong series since he has his own franchise.

Aside from that, are you really going to tell me Yoshi guest stars in Mario games, when MARIO HIMSELF appears in the Yoshi games frequently?
And that Miyamoto confirmed that the Yoshi's Island games are indeed part of Mario canon, is he now wrong because of some faulty logic?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I mean, being made of paper is cool and all, nice visual style, but no one ever made use of that in movesets. If you're going to ignore the one thing that actually makes him stand out from Mario, thus worth adding, then forget about him.

Anyway there's no way around the fact that he's another Mario. With my love of variety I just can't accept him.

Last I check Platformer Mario doesn't use a Mallet.

 

[Big-Cat]

Are we REALLY discussing this? At least discussing that one series isn't as freaking arbitrary.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy Kong Racing isn't really a Donkey Kong game, now is it? OOP. Guess Diddy is a guest star in the Donkey Kong series since he has his own franchise.

Aside from that, are you really going to tell me Yoshi guest stars in Mario games, when MARIO HIMSELF appears in the Yoshi games frequently?
And that Miyamoto confirmed that the Yoshi's Island games are indeed part of Mario canon, is he now wrong because of some faulty logic?

According to Canon, Samus has visited the Mushroom Kingdom and Kirby can travel to Zebes if he likes. Your arguments are moot, what matters is how the company portrays the franchises not how you choose to see them as a fan.

Regardless of the Canon, Yoshi is still a separate franchise, Yoshi's Story is considered a Yoshi game, and the new Yoshi title coming out is being marketed as a YOSHI game not a Mario game. Quit with the strawman arguments and use a bit of common sense.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Are we REALLY discussing this? At least discussing that one series isn't as freaking arbitrary.

You must be new to the Roster Discussion Thread. Stupid stuff like this happens all the time, and there is nothing that's going to stop it.

 

[Oasis_S]

Last I check Platformer Mario doesn't use a Mallet.

Yeah, Dedede and Ice Climbers do. What I would want is for Paper Mario to actually make use of the PAPER part of his name instead of the MARIO. Because otherwise Paper Mario is very boring and adds nothing new. Laying over an interesting visual style doesn't excuse that his weapon of choice isn't interesting and he's just another Mario. All of that, just for the sake of adding a new Mario character? Just because?


Pointless.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo is going to suck regardless due to the very conflicting attributes. Mewtwo is one of those characters that cannot simply be fixed by buffing due to the moveset having extremely little synergy.

Because Mewtwo is "doomed" to be mediocre and because believing he will be changed at all is deluding ourselves, right?

Mewtwo would need to go one of two routes for his "conflicting attributes":

1. If his light weight due to always moving himself with his mind just HAS to be in, then his attack speed and strength need buffing to make him a Glass Cannon. Easy to send flying, but just as easy to be sent flying BY.
2. If his speed has to be slow for whatever reason, then buff up his weight and strength to make him the typical slower but stronger character. Preferably like Melee Ganondorf, not Brawl Ganondorf.

And that is not accounting for moveset changes, but those are completely impossible, aren't they?

 

[Arcadenik]

Maybe the reason Mewtwo sucked in Melee is because his Attack and Defense stats are too low and Smash is a fighting game that relies on mostly physical attacks.

Donkey Kong (arcade), Donkey Kong (Game Boy), and Mario vs. Donkey Kong (the first one) are Mario platformers and Mario used hammers in those games.

 

[Deleted member]

According to Canon, Samus has visited the Mushroom Kingdom and Kirby can travel to Zebes if he likes. Your arguments are moot, what matters is how the company portrays the franchises not how you choose to see them as a fan.

Regardless of the Canon, Yoshi is still a separate franchise, Yoshi's Story is considered a Yoshi game, and the new Yoshi title coming out is being marketed as a YOSHI game not a Mario game. Quit with the strawman arguments and use a bit of common sense.

I think you are the one in desperate need of common sense, if you are seriously using GameTheory as if it were absolute fact and treat little cameos meant to be fanservice (not the sexual kind, so don't even go there) as cold hard canon.

I never said the Yoshi series wasn't a seperate franchise. I said Yoshi was a Mario character, which he IS; he just happened to have branched off with his own spin-offs. Unless the Luigi's Mansion franchise suddenly means Luigi is not a Mario character anymore. If you seriously argue THAT, there is no point in me responding to the sheer lunacy.
Pikachu has a plethora of spin-offs. Does that mean Pikachu is not a Pokemon character?

EDIT: @Arcadenik: Don't forget Wrecking Crew.

 

[Oasis_S]

Toon Link is no longer a Legend of Zelda character.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link is no longer a Legend of Zelda character.

Of course not. There's no such character named "Toon Link" in the series.
That means Toon Link is a Smash Bros. character.

 

[Deleted member]

I think you are the one in desperate need of common sense, if you are seriously using GameTheory as if it were absolute fact and treat little cameos meant to be fanservice (not the sexual kind, so don't even go there) as cold hard canon.

I never said the Yoshi series wasn't a seperate franchise. I said Yoshi was a Mario character, which he IS; he just happened to have branched off with his own spin-offs. Unless the Luigi's Mansion franchise suddenly means Luigi is not a Mario character anymore. If you seriously argue THAT, there is no point in me responding to the sheer lunacy.

EDIT: @Arcadenik: Don't forget Wrecking Crew.

I was never citing Game Theory as a source I was merely using it as an example of how fickle the "well he appears in X games" argunent is.

Yoshi is a Mario character, but he also has his own series which is what he represents in Smash. Same for Wario, ergo calling those two Mario chracters when they are clearly not representing the Mario franchise us wrong.

Doc Mario on the other hand also has his own series but came to Smash representing the Mario franchise...

I think we're finished here.

 

[JOE!]

@the whole thread as of late

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is a Mario character, but he also has his own series which is what he represents in Smash. Same for Wario

This is exactly my point. They ARE Mario characters. They just happen represent their own things and don't negatively affect the "main" Mario representation.

ergo calling those two Mario chracters when they are clearly not representing the Mario franchise us wrong.

So despite them being Mario characters to which you YOURSELF admitted, just because they have different symbols it is "wrong" to call them Mario characters? What kind of logic is that?
If we were talking in terms of setting up characters for each individual series, then yeah, I can see why they'd be "Yoshi" or "Wario" characters, but that's not exactly the case, now is it? It was just someone adding Yoshi and Wario to the list of characters from the Mario franchise (regardless of what they represent) to save on typing out the two extra series because he didn't add new characters to them. It would be no different than labeling Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Game & Watch, Takamaru, etc. as "Retro Characters" despite none of them sharing a franchise. It's just a shorthand list.

Doc Mario on the other hand also has his own series but came to Smash representing the Mario franchise...

I think we're finished here.

Hopefully finished due to that huge hole in the logic...

 

[Gene]

Of course not. There's no such character named "Toon Link" in the series.
That means Toon Link is a Smash Bros. character.

Lets not forget that our boy Roy debuted in Melee before the FE game he's in was released. We've got another Smash Bros. character.

 

[Starphoenix]

Why would Serebii want Mewtwo out? I didn't know this and it's weird. Obviously he wasn't cut due to Serebii wanting him out lol, though it's interesting.

Serebii made the case that Nintendo should move on from Mewtwo -- not only were more popular characters available at that time, but also because Mewtwo was poorly implemented in Melee.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I always thought Paper Mario would work great...
He could be a gliding character and turn into a paper airplane.
His b could have him turn sideways, give him the ability to move, then do damage when he flips back.
Over b can be his roll up into a cylinder and roll over people.
Something else with his hammer.
Idk
But I'd say there's definitely a lot of possibilities.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I always thought Paper Mario would work great...
He could be a gliding character and turn into a paper airplane.
His b could have him turn sideways, give him the ability to move, then do damage when he flips back.
Over b can be his roll up into a cylinder and roll over people.
Something else with his hammer.
Idk
But I'd say there's definitely a lot of possibilities.

That's sounds boring to me.. :/

 

[Gingerbread Man]

That's sounds boring to me.. :/

Then your doing it wrong.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I am not slighting you in anyway, however, I think now is a good time to address the "you cannot be a fan of "xxxx" character because you have not played the game they are from."

The funny thing is that I have only seen this used against Roy. I am sure very few people have played the game/s that the Ice Climbers, ROB, Marth, Ike, Ness, Lucas, Mr. Game & Watch, and Captain Falcon are from, especially relative to the size of their Smash Bros. fanbases. For some of those characters (Ice Climbers and ROB) their source material games are considered sub-par, and for Captain Falcon (outside of GX) you don't see him do anything outside of his car.

Also, here is another way of looking at it. Look at Toad and Waluigi, most of their popularity comes from games where they are simply another character on their game's rosters. Their fanbase mostly derives from people who use them in those games.

The same goes for Smash Bros. Many people could absolutely hate their source material (like most Ice Climbers and ROB fans), but absolutely love how they are portrayed within the Smash Bros. series. The Smash Bros. games are just as much Captain Falcon's games, as the Mario Kart games are Waluigi's. So to say that you cannot truly love a character since you have not played their source material is very disingenuous.

I agree with you 100%. I was just curious how much of his fanbase actually played his game. That's all.

 

[volbound1700]

Diddy Kong: Impa
GoldenYuiitusin: Dr. Mario
Young Horsetail: Starfy
ChronoBound: Ridley
Croph: Roy
BKupa666: K. Rool
ManlySpirit: Lyn
Shortie: Krystal
PsychoIncarnate: Geno
DragonSniper: Micaiah
Swampasaur: Ridley
Habanero: Takamaru

Habanero's most wanted is too obvious.

My most wanted is MEGAMAN but I would really like all cut characters returned as well as no new characters cut.

Thing is is that deliberately bad characters have been shied away from in recent games. What's now in is the Lethal Joke Character. Jigglypuff in Melee is a prime example of this.

I actually think that was unintentional. The AI Jigglypuff is terrible and usually a free KO. So is Brawl Jigglypuff. You have to train with Jiggs as a human to get good with her. I don't think the developers truely saw the potential for Jiggs. Hence her nerf in Brawl.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well knowing about the characters should be taken into consideration if you want know about capabilities. Characterisation should be more of a second priority, but it doesn't hurt look up the source out of curiosity.

One thing for sure is that liking something blindly is shallow. It's the equivalent of proclaiming you love caviar without knowing what caviar is, if you know what I mean.

 

[Gene]

I actually hope Megaman gets in smash 4. Only because of how his franchise has been handled by Cashcom over the past few years. His inclusion could help out his franchise from dying out from starvation.

 

[peeup]

I actually think that was unintentional. The AI Jigglypuff is terrible and usually a free KO. So is Brawl Jigglypuff. You have to train with Jiggs as a human to get good with her. I don't think the developers truely saw the potential for Jiggs. Hence her nerf in Brawl.

Honestly, the AI was pretty awful for every character in Melee. And you don't have to train with Jiggs as a human to get good with her at all. I suck at Melee, but I can roast people with Jiggs by huffing and puffing people offstage with some fairs and bairs. Its really easy to be good with Jiggs.

 

[Shorts]

Serebii made the case that Nintendo should move on from Mewtwo -- not only were more popular characters available at that time, but also because Mewtwo was poorly implemented in Melee.

Why did that man have so much connection with Nintendo? For one, how did he get a hold of him? And for two, how did he learn of Mewtwo being cut so early on? He's like the lame version of FatmanOnIce. At least he tried to give Nintendo a case FOR a character.

 

[ChronoBound]

What I am more interested is how a troll obsessed with the buttocks of various Nintendo characters (particularly Peach) got inside information for Smash Bros.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

I disagree. She seems like a boring character. UNTIL I saw her DLC costume

Micaiah was better in Radiant Dawn, but if we got her DLC self I wouldn't be upset because we would still be getting Micaiah