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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

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~ Valkyrie ~

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Like Habanero said, liked by being bit creepy and much more "attractive" villain. Really like he's pretty infamous for being pretty... flamboyant. (-öuö-);

That reminds me, I haven't YET cleared Skyward Sword. So far just cleared that first trial and have to cure that Water Dragon and such. More interested on clearing FE4 after FE7. (And boy am I setting myself for a torture.)

But really, I'm still seeing Ghira as a one-shotter. Him being a servant of Demise doesn't also help. (-l^l-);
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Even Demise himself is more boss material though. If Ghirahim has any chances, he'll probably be an Assist Trophy or just get a cameo as a collectible trophy.
 

~automatic

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@~automatic: well, that's kind of a relief... I guess. But the news drought isn't helping to avoid these situations at all...
Well, I meant that in terms of general or social threads such as this one. You Smash 4 people at least try to keep on topic since many of you come to the site to solely discuss that. Some of the Brawl and Melee social/general threads are all over the place but that's because many of those people know each other irl from tournaments or being from the same town and have been talking about competitive aspects of the game and random stuff for years now.

As a side note, I'd recommend everyone check out the rest of the forum outside of Smash 4 stuff every now and then. Smashboards is one of the more interesting forums I visit since there are a bunch of interesting people and threads around the site.
 

Frostwraith

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Ghirahim definitely was very different from any other Zelda villain.

His personality is what makes him popular and he also has good moveset potential. He was also one of the few villains to not be hijacked by Ganon, unlike Zant, for example.
 

ChronoBound

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Habanero, I know you brought up earlier that Leaf would not be interesting. However, he would definitely be perhaps among the most interesting lords they could be in if they based him off of his FE4 incarnation (in which he could promote to the Master Knight class). The Master Knight class could use swords, lances, axes, bows, and all types of magic (except dark and light), and staffs. However, Leaf is probably the most obscure lord in the series next to the two lords in FE2, and barely anyone asks for him. I would be happy if he just got in as a trophy (and if we got any music remixes for FE5 in general).
 

Robert of Normandy

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I would be happy if he just got in as a trophy (and if we got any music remixes for FE5 in general).
Smash 4 needs to include more content from the SNES games. Jugdral got completely shafted(didn't even get stickers, AKA the laziest content to make) in Brawl. Heck, there should be more varied FE content in general. More trophies of characters from older games, more music, etc.
 
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Okay...

To get this topic back on-topic, I will answer some questions people had earlier (though no directed earlier).

I believe Shortie asked where Midna's popularity compared to Ghirahim's now.

Back during pre-Brawl, Twilight Princess was a far, far bigger profile release than Skyward Sword. The only place where Skyward Sword did not bomb upon being its initial month of release was North America (but even there the sales were a massive decline compared to TP's sales). As such, there are less people who know who Ghirahim is than Midna.

However, although Midna's game was received very well, there was a lot of people who had animosity toward her and wanted another Zelda character in (namely Wind Waker Link or Vaati). There was a minority of people that wanted Tingle. SmashChu cited Skull Kid as someone who was popularly requested during pre-Brawl, but while I did see mentions every now and then, his heyday was back during pre-MeleeYou also had a few people asking for Zant.

Of those fanbases, Midna definitely had the largest and most vocal fanbase.

Right now, the only Zelda character with a large fanbase is Ghirahim. I am really surprised how big his fanbase is considering the reception Skyward Sword got.

I think it's also that all other Zelda reps were up against Toon Link and Vaati, both of whom were great choices for a newcomer.

Zant would have been a great choice had Ganondorf not been shoehorned in and Zant turned into a clown losing ALL character development, and killed in an instant.

Imp/Adult Midna could have worked, but many people wanted Midna+Wolf Link which was very gimmicky and a flavor of the month character, not to mention Adult Midna would likely have been the Dark Samus to Zelda's character.

Skull Kid/Majora is another one off character, that fails a representing most of the franchise, thus the only TRUE viable options back then were Toon Link and to a much lesser extent Vaati and Tingle, and well the rest is history.

We can see a similar scenario with Ghirahim and the rest of the possible cast this time around, except character that had a better chance last time now have their chances greatly diminished.

Now here's an interesting contrast:


If we pit Ghirahim against Vaati as a Zelda villain for Smash 4, who stands the better chance?

I would say Vaati since he's more interesting and has appeared in more games. Plus he has a higher chance of returning compared to Ghirahim.

What do you guys think.
 

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I will try to avoid any bias, but I think Ghirahim seems to have better chances, considering the fanbase he has.

Plotwise, Ghirahim has major contribution than Vaati, because he orchestrated Demise's revival. Upon being defeated by Link, Demise curses the future Links and Zeldas in an endless cycle of battles against the reincarnation of his hatred, Ganon.
 

ChronoBound

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If we pit Ghirahim against Vaati as a Zelda villain for Smash 4, who stands the better chance?

I would say Vaati since he's more interesting and has appeared in more games. Plus he has a higher chance of returning compared to Ghirahim.

What do you guys think.
Vaati had the weakest/smallest fanbase of the Zelda characters during pre-Brawl (heck, I think even Tingle's fanbase ended up eclipsing him due to Tingle fans being invigorated by the spinoffs games being announced for him).

Wind Waker Link (the name used for Toon Link in the West during pre-Brawl) was attacked for being a likely possibly clone.

Vaati is a far weaker character than Ghirahim. The Minish Cap and Four Swords Adventures were the two worst selling Zelda games in Japan. Vaati has not made an appearance in the Zelda series since 2004. In all the games Vaati has been in, only one of them he was not a mindless eyeball monster (Minish Cap), and in another one of them (Four Swords Adventures) he got usurped by Ganon.

Vaati was also not referenced at all in Brawl (despite stickers being taken from the Four Swords trilogy). Unless there is another Four Swords game, I doubt Vaati will ever be revisited. Combound that also with the fact that the developer for two out of three of the Four Swords games, Flagship (a development group of Capcom), disbanded, makes things even bleaker for a return to the Four Swords story.
 

Jakor

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So have any of you guys tried the version 4.0 of the Roster Maker? What do you think of it? Did you encounter any problems?
 

FlareHabanero

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Habanero, I know you brought up earlier that Leaf would not be interesting. However, he would definitely be perhaps among the most interesting lords they could be in if they based him off of his FE4 incarnation (in which he could promote to the Master Knight class). The Master Knight class could use swords, lances, axes, bows, and all types of magic (except dark and light), and staffs.
Keep in mind that you cannot stomach nearly a half dozen different types of weapons on the same character and get away with it, unless it's some sort of stance user we're talking about. Magic might be a bit interesting to give the character a form of spacing by firing a projectile, admittedly.
 
D

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Vaati had the weakest/smallest fanbase of the Zelda characters during pre-Brawl (heck, I think even Tingle's fanbase ended up eclipsing him due to Tingle fans being invigorated by the spinoffs games being announced for him).

Wind Waker Link (the name used for Toon Link in the West during pre-Brawl) was attacked for being a likely possibly clone.

Vaati is a far weaker character than Ghirahim. The Minish Cap and Four Swords Adventures were the two worst selling Zelda games in Japan. Vaati has not made an appearance in the Zelda series since 2004. In all the games Vaati has been in, only one of them he was not a mindless eyeball monster (Minish Cap), and in another one of them (Four Swords Adventures) he got usurped by Ganon.

Vaati was also not referenced at all in Brawl (despite stickers being taken from the Four Swords trilogy). Unless there is another Four Swords game, I doubt Vaati will ever be revisited. Combound that also with the fact that the developer for two out of three of the Four Swords games, Flagship (a development group of Capcom), disbanded, makes things even bleaker for a return to the Four Swords story.
Well, that's a real shame...

Also,

The Minish Cap and Four Swords Adventures were the two worst selling Zelda games in Japan.
Japanese people confirmed for having no taste, Minish Cap was brilliant.
 

ChronoBound

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Another thing to said on Ghirahim and Vaati. The director for Minish Cap directed Skyward Sword (Skyward Sword even had Minish Cap Zelda items like the Mole Mitts and Gust Jar).

Ghirahim and Vaati's humanoid form were also very similar. Both had a effeminate appearance with long white hair and purple-gray skin. Though I think Ghirahim was fleshed out far more as a character (as Habanero said, it was flamboyant and creepy), whle Vaati's Minish Cap personality was pretty much "I want the Light Force to become all-powerful".

This being said, Minish Cap was my second-favorite handheld Zelda (my favorite was Link's Awakening), while Skyward Sword was my least favorite 3D home console Zelda.
 

FlareHabanero

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My main beef with Skyward Sword was the Wiimotion Plus feature. It just felt very annoying, and it just made things more frustrating then intended. I mean for something like Wii Sports Resort, it's alright. But in the context of an adventure game in the vein to The Legend of Zelda, it just feels shoehorned and clumsy.

It doesn't help that combat was really dumb down, which is saying something since that was never the strong suit of the series.
 

ChronoBound

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My main beef with Skyward Sword was the Wiimotion Plus feature. It just felt very annoying, and it just made things more frustrating then intended. I mean for something like Wii Sports Resort, it's alright. But in the context of an adventure game in the vein to The Legend of Zelda, it just feels shoehorned and clumsy.

It doesn't help that combat was really dumb down, which is saying something since that was never the strong suit of the series.
Nearly everyone I know irl had nothing nice to say about the motion controls for Skyward Sword. Keep in mind too that Skyward Sword was met with far less hype than Twilight Princess. If Zelda Wii U does not at least perform as well as Twilight Princess did, I think it could be the end of Zelda games having massive budgets.

Nowadays, the Zelda name does not bring as much hype as it used to (the same goes for Final Fantasy).
 

FlareHabanero

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It's kind of hard to ignore the Wiimotion Plus considering it was, you know, the main mechanic of the game. If it was optional for something like a minigame or a bonus, it probably would of been glanced over with a shrug at worst. The whole Wiimotion Plus was what killed the experience, and it drove people away from it to avoid the forced gimmick.
 

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It doesn't help that combat was really dumb down, which is saying something since that was never the strong suit of the series.
Combat got dumbed down? Huh. I must be playing OoT wrong, since I can generally just beat half the enemies by alternating between shielding and attacking. The rest are killed by the Bow, or whatever item you get in the dungeon.

Skyward Sword has a lot of flaws, but really, no more than your standard Zelda game. Long intro? See how long it takes from leaving the Deku tree to arriving at Dodongo cavern. Personally, I hate those types even more since they give you a taste of what you'll be getting before forcing you into a novel. If you have to (which you shouldn't), get it done in one run instead of dangling a carrot in front of someone.No sprawling overworld? Majora's Mask. Poor controls? Yes, annoying. At least they try to come up with new stuff. I'm looking at you, COD. I mean, seriously, I remember watching one youtuber who says that because the motion controls occasionally had problems, they should've gone back to buttons. That would be like Mario 64 using 2-D sprites because polygons caused too many glitches.
 

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Japanese people confirmed for having no taste, Minish Cap was brilliant.
Yep, It's my favourite handheld Zelda game to date. I didn't really like the touch controls of the DS Zelda games.
Also the Minish Cap manga is great!
 

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I agree, I love The Minish Cap. Quite possibly the most underrated Zelda ever, only rivaled by Spirit Tracks and Zelda II.
Also, I gave Toon Link the Gust Jar in a new moveset I made, in which he's completely unique.
 

Robert of Normandy

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I agree, I love The Minish Cap. Quite possibly the most underrated Zelda ever, only rivaled by Spirit Tracks and Zelda II.
Still need to play MC.

Also, I gave Toon Link the Gust Jar in a new moveset I made, in which he's completely unique.
You know, in the past I've opposed 'de-cloning' TL to a great extent. However, I think that if his old moveset(or one similar to it, anyway) was still selecteable somehow, I'd be fine if he also had a 'non-clone' moveset. That'd actually be a good option for most of the remaining true 'clones.'
 

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Minish Cap was my first Zelda game, it's currently my favorite (followed by the original) and is the only one I found myself coming back to play repeatedly.

Anyway I'm betting against a Zelda newcomer, we have all the main characters, would feel like overkill and adding someone at this point would be for the sake of keeping the series in line with Mario/Pokemon. That said, there are plenty of options for other Zelda characters through ATs and bosses.
 

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Minish Cap's Famitsu score stands at 36/40. That's not bad... And yet it sold poorly in Japan?
 
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Combat got dumbed down? Huh. I must be playing OoT wrong, since I can generally just beat half the enemies by alternating between shielding and attacking. The rest are killed by the Bow, or whatever item you get in the dungeon.

Skyward Sword has a lot of flaws, but really, no more than your standard Zelda game. Long intro? See how long it takes from leaving the Deku tree to arriving at Dodongo cavern. Personally, I hate those types even more since they give you a taste of what you'll be getting before forcing you into a novel. If you have to (which you shouldn't), get it done in one run instead of dangling a carrot in front of someone.No sprawling overworld? Majora's Mask. Poor controls? Yes, annoying. At least they try to come up with new stuff. I'm looking at you, COD. I mean, seriously, I remember watching one youtuber who says that because the motion controls occasionally had problems, they should've gone back to buttons. That would be like Mario 64 using 2-D sprites because polygons caused too many glitches.

Just gonna jump in on this...

Comparing Zelda to CoD is redundant, Zelda should be either compared to it's own franchise or other Zelda clones, also, I hate CoD as much as the next guy, but they DO come up with some new ideas here and there. Really, Nintendo is just as guilty of rehashing selling points in a franchise as Activision.

What I mean is every Zelda since OoT has tried too hard to be just like OoT and following the OoT formula. TP being the biggest culprit. The criticism for SS is fair, it truly is the worst 3D Zelda to date. A good game? Yes, but bad by Zelda standards, its an example of a series that has hit its end in regard to original ideas. As Chrono said above, Zelda and FF are both series that have stagnated and failed to inspire in modern times, and truly, the fans are largely to blame. It is because the fans clamor for repeats of old games that those series have gone the way they have. Dev's will make what sells, not what they are inspired to do, and when you do this, you begin to bottle creative ideas.

The Zelda series, at least with the last few entries has tried experimentation in the wrong areas and has been instead used as a flagship to promote a tired gimmick, motion controls. Can they work? Yes, but they don't belong in Zelda. They simplify the combat way too much and in a series that began as very action focused and slowly turned more puzzle focused this is bad. Zelda needs to go back to its roots, and a good example of combat done right is seen in WW and the GCN version of TP, so smooth, so flawless and Oh so satisfying.

A large and expansive overworld means nothing if it's not immersive. Sure the overworld in MM was smaller than the one in SS, but Termina felt like a living breathing world. Skyloft and the world in SS just felt like an empty shell full of uninteresting ventures.

On intros, the games before OoT did it right, and you could write essays on Cinematics in Games and Intuitive game design, how to get players to wanna play and learn the story without having to force them through long cutscenes, but for simplicity's sake I'll just point to Majora's Mask, you are thrown into an unexpected world and are handed a small task, meanwhile the world around you begins to unravel and throw you into an epic quest larger than what you expected. No cutscenes, no back story. All the lore and plot can easily be expressed through more creative means that immerse the player into the world rather than force them to endure a pretentious video about crap they don't care about. Compare the intro in MM to the intro in OoT for example. Which of the two sparked more curiosity in the player? OoT you are given a bunch of mundane fetch quests to do before you can get into the action and TP and SS are guilty of the same thing, and then when you finally DO get started on the quest you have to go through cutscene after cutscene explaining all the crap the you honestly don't give two ****s about. Now look at MM, the game brilliantly forces the player to take action and move forward. In the first 10 minutes of gameplay you already know more about Termina and the situation you find yourself in than what you learn in the first 5 hours of OoT. Just from the very first segment where you chase Skull Kid, you learn not only the mechanics of Deku Link, but are also motivated to try and recover your old form back and learn about the world around you. Honestly, I could write SO much more about this, but I don't wanna bore you and it's rather unplanned so... yeah.

Honestly, despite all the praise OoT gets, I still stand by the idea that it is hands down the MOST overrated Zelda game, and I honestly wish Nintendo would stop following that formula as it's precisely that that's killing the franchise.
 

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Honestly I just to see another traditional 2d Zelda game like the original or aLttP. There hasn't been once since Minish Cap and that was all the back in 04 (I don't count Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks as traditional).

EDIT: Either that or another game like Zelda 2.
 

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Now that Wind Waker HD is in the works, would anyone like it to include motion control?
 

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Honestly, despite all the praise OoT gets, I still stand by the idea that it is hands down the MOST overrated Zelda game, and I honestly wish Nintendo would stop following that formula as it's precisely that that's killing the franchise.
You could replace 'Zelda' with 'Mario' and OoT with 'Mario 3' and 'NSMB' and you'd have my thoughts on Mario.
 

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I must be the only one who thought SS was a step in the right direction. The dungeons were a lot better imo and so was the combat. Music was great and the story was one of Zelda's best. Controls were a bit clunky at times but no more than say Metroid Prime 3. I certainly enjoyed SS just as much as TP, MM, ST and WW. I enjoyed it much more than OoT.
 

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You could replace 'Zelda' with 'Mario' and OoT with 'Mario 3' and 'NSMB' and you'd have my thoughts on Mario.
Perhaps upto overrated only. I'm sure it's not "killing the franchise".

Swampasaur said:
I must be the only one who thought SS was a step in the right direction.
Don't worry. That's Nintendo's opinion as well. Lol
 

FlareHabanero

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Personally I just want to see Mysterious Murasame Castle getting the kick start that Kamiya from Platinum Games proposed. A different flavor of The Legend of Zelda sounds more appealing then the actual Legend of Zelda games at this point.
 

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I must be the only one who thought SS was a step in the right direction. The dungeons were a lot better imo and so was the combat. Music was great and the story was one of Zelda's best. Controls were a bit clunky at times but no more than say Metroid Prime 3. I certainly enjoyed SS just as much as TP, MM, ST and WW. I enjoyed it much more than OoT.
Nope, I like SS too. I also think Ocarina of Time is overrated, and is the worst 3D Zelda, in my stupid opinion.
I also hope that the next Zelda game has more 1 on 1 swordfights. Dark Link, Koloktos, Ganondorf, and Ghirahim are my favorite bosses because of this.
 
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I kinda already had this sentiment when I heard how well PM:SS is doing over there.
PM:SS?

I agree, I love The Minish Cap. Quite possibly the most underrated Zelda ever, only rivaled by Spirit Tracks and Zelda II.
Also, I gave Toon Link the Gust Jar in a new moveset I made, in which he's completely unique.
I HATED Spirit Tracks, it is HANDS DOWN the WORST Zelda game ever. It goes against everything that made the series, and it goes through all the grating cliches plaguing the series. In fact, from a gameplay standpoint, I find myself hard pressed to even call it a Zelda game, it's only Zelda by name.

I mean, where the hell is the exploration? The game is literally ON RAILS, and the whole main quest feels like a chore. all the side quests are mundane fetch quests, the puzzles were piss easy, the bosses were boring, and all of the dungeons are incredibly uninspired, hell the whole game felt uninspired. I almost quit on it halfway through, but pushed through to the end in hopes of it getting better at some point, once I beat the final boss I deleted the game off my flashcart and never touched it again, I was certainly glad I didn't pay money for it, otherwise I would have been very pissed.

To be honest, despite all the criticism PH gets, I feel it was at least more interesting to play if anything for the novelty. ST just treaded on beaten ground, and fixing the flaws of PH weren't enough to make it good.

Anyway, on Toon Link, I'd like to see him decloned as well. In fact, back in preBrawl days I wanted him to have the Gust Jar, Leaf, Hurricane Spin Attack, Grapple Hook and Skull Hammer, too bad it never happened.

Minish Cap was my first Zelda game, it's currently my favorite (followed by the original) and is the only one I found myself coming back to play repeatedly.

Anyway I'm betting against a Zelda newcomer, we have all the main characters, would feel like overkill and adding someone at this point would be for the sake of keeping the series in line with Mario/Pokemon. That said, there are plenty of options for other Zelda characters through ATs and bosses.
Minish Cap was also my first Zelda, I think WW was my second OoT my third. Then it was LttP and TP. MM was one of the more recent ones I've played and my favorite in the franchise, but yeah, MC has to be my favorite 2D Zelda.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Perhaps upto overrated only. I'm sure it's not "killing the franchise".
Mario is stagnating really badly. The sales number are fine now, but I have a feeling that at some point, people will grow tired of seeing the same levels over and over again. I'm not even asking for gameplay innovation, just some more creativity with things like enemies, power ups(NO MORE TANOOKI SUIT WANNABES), and levels.

Paper Mario: Sticker Star
 

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You could replace 'Zelda' with 'Mario' and OoT with 'Mario 3' and 'NSMB' and you'd have my thoughts on Mario.
The Game Grumps talk about this in one of the NSMBWii episodes, the game tries hard to hark back to the nostalgia of the old games, but the difference is that back then the levels were designed with those mechanics in mind, and the worlds were built around what Mario could and could not do. The new games are just generic worlds with the abilities tacked on, thus they lack the same magic and wonderment that made the first games great. In fact correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Miyamotto has nothing to do with the NSMB series, the series afaik is just a lifeless cash in.

Personally I just want to see Mysterious Murasame Castle getting the kick start that Kamiya from Platinum Games proposed. A different flavor of The Legend of Zelda sounds more appealing then the actual Legend of Zelda games at this point.
I'd like to see this happen too. A more action focused Zelda clone directed by Kamiya. Oh my God, that's a system seller in my book.
 

ChronoBound

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I played and beaten both games in the StarTropics series. They are both good games, but they are definitely quite different from Zelda (there is barely any puzzles for one), and the overworld is much more limited.
 

Fastblade5035

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I HATED Spirit Tracks, it is HANDS DOWN the WORST Zelda game ever. It goes against everything that made the series, and it goes through all the grating cliches plaguing the series. In fact, from a gameplay standpoint, I find myself hard pressed to even call it a Zelda game, it's only Zelda by name.

I mean, where the hell is the exploration? The game is literally ON RAILS, and the whole main quest feels like a chore. all the side quests are mundane fetch quests, the puzzles were piss easy, the bosses were boring, and all of the dungeons are incredibly uninspired, hell the whole game felt uninspired. I almost quit on it halfway through, but pushed through to the end in hopes of it getting better at some point, once I beat the final boss I deleted the game off my flashcart and never touched it again, I was certainly glad I didn't pay money for it, otherwise I would have been very pissed.

To be honest, despite all the criticism PH gets, I feel it was at least more interesting to play if anything for the novelty. ST just treaded on beaten ground, and fixing the flaws of PH weren't enough to make it good.

I feel the same way more or less about Four Swords.
How about Zelda II? Just because one game isn't like the other does not mean it's unworthy of the name. Again, Zelda II is a prime example of this. But anyway, I shouldn't be arguing. That's your opinion, so I'll respect it.
I liked Paper Mario Sticker Star...
 
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