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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

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Pichu4SSB4

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I wonder where I said anything about tier placement? I'm pretty sure I didn't and I was talking about personal experience. You know, that thing where you play the game for your own reasons as opposed to competing with a bunch of nerdy abominations over pocket change.

Remember, not everything has to do with a tier list you know.
You just stated that you dislike him for being a "bad character" without any legit explanation. Out of context it seems you were just referring to his Tier List placement/metagame in SSBM.

Also you disliking him has no voice on whether he should return or not.
 
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The only definition applicable to Mewtwo with "bad character" involves his overall playstyle.

Otherwise, calling Mewtwo a "bad character" is just a matter of poor personal taste and has no bearing on his chances to return and whether he should return or not.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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The only definition applicable to Mewtwo with "bad character" involves his overall playstyle.

Otherwise, calling Mewtwo a "bad character" is just a matter of poor personal taste and has no bearing on his chances to return and whether he should return or not.
Agreed. It seems to me that a lot of people don't argue based on logic, but more of "i don't like that character". That doesn't mean he wasn't a well liked character. I myself want Mewtwo and Roy to come back. I don't really want Dr.Mario back, even though i liked him in Melee. (or i guess i WOULD take him back if they added another Mario character with him.)

It's not that hard to think with logic rather than a completely biased argument.
 

3Bismyname

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now i didnt hate Mewtwo by any means, i was more or less neutral with him, but i dont really want to see him come back. i just feel the first gen is far to over represented right now and since we all know Pikachu and Jigglypuff arent going anywhere and Pokemon trainer may come back then we are looking at 6 playable first gen pokemon with maybe 1 who's not. first Gen should get represented more cause it is the best but thats just a lot you know
 

Robert of Normandy

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now i didnt hate Mewtwo by any means, i was more or less neutral with him, but i dont really want to see him come back. i just feel the first gen is far to over represented right now and since we all know Pikachu and Jigglypuff arent going anywhere and Pokemon trainer may come back then we are looking at 6 playable first gen pokemon with maybe 1 who's not. first Gen should get represented more cause it is the best but thats just a lot you know
PTs' Pokemon are from first gen, but his design is 3rd gen, so you could say he's a 3rd gen rep. Also, it's been pointed out in the past that Sakurai doesn't reall think of Pokemon reps in terms of Generations.
 

DMurr

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Also, it's been pointed out in the past that Sakurai doesn't reall think of Pokemon reps in terms of Generations.
Neither do the people who make Pokemon, actually. That was one of their goals supposedly with the sequels to black and white. To blur the lines between the generations. Read this on IGN haha. I think it's only a fan thing to split the pokemon based on what games they're from.

:phone:
 

Spydr Enzo

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I myself am pretty confident in Mewtwo's return. The fact that he has already appeared in a Smash game helps his case a ton. People hate it when characters are cut, even if they don't care much for a certain cut character. Naturally, people will want them back, but none so much as Mewtwo. Mewtwo is probably the single most-requested character for SSB4. His popularity will almost certainly lead to his return.

And who cares about generation representation? Sakurai obviously doesn't. The reason that the majority of playable Pokemon are from the first generation is because the first generation is the most well-known and recognizable generation, as well as still being quite popular.
 

BKupa666

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I don't think his popularity stems so much from the fact that he was cut, per se, but the fact that he was an original, fun character who was -this- close to making the game before time constraints held him back. Hopefully his return to SSB4 rectifies this injustice.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Glad I'm not the only one who finds the whole "Pokemon gen representation" thing to be BS.
 

SmasherMaster

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I myself am pretty confident in Mewtwo's return. The fact that he has already appeared in a Smash game helps his case a ton. People hate it when characters are cut, even if they don't care much for a certain cut character. Naturally, people will want them back, but none so much as Mewtwo. Mewtwo is probably the single most-requested character for SSB4. His popularity will almost certainly lead to his return.

And who cares about generation representation? Sakurai obviously doesn't. The reason that the majority of playable Pokemon are from the first generation is because the first generation is the most well-known and recognizable generation, as well as still being quite popular.
to
with everybody in-between says hi
 
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Pokemon are Pokemon are Pokemon.

There are no "Gen reps". Just newer Pokemon to be judged.
 

Spydr Enzo

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Spydr Enzo says bye.

I'm not quite sure what your point is with this post... if anything, it only proves my point more. No Pokemon between those two were included as playable characters, besides Lucario, and for plenty of good reasons.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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Generation representation shouldn't be a deciding factor when choosing which Pokemon to include. The criteria should be whether a certain Pokemon deserves to be in Smash Bros. How has this Pokemon affected or made a impact in Nintendo's history? What makes this Pokemon unique? What has this Pokemon done to endorse or promote Pokemon? Some Generations has that Pokemon while others don't.

Let's Look at the previous Pokemon:

Pikachu is obviously the mascot.
Jigglypuff was pretty popular back in Generation 1 and the release of Smash 64.
Mewtwo was the strongest Pokemon back in Gen 1 and continues to still be a reackoning force within the Pokemon community.
Pichu.....well....I have no idea why that got in besides being a filler.
Lucario is a popular Pokemon and the first 4th Gen movie was based on him. He is still in high demand.
Pokemon Trainer hearkens back to the Gen 1 days. I would say Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard has earned their stay within Smash Bros. since they were, historically, the first starters in the Pokemon franchise.

They all are fairly iconic within Pokemon and Nintendo. I am not surprised that Sakurai isn't including Pokemon from every generation because he doesn't see the need for it.
 

SmasherMaster

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Spydr Enzo says bye.

I'm not quite sure what your point is with this post... if anything, it only proves my point more. No Pokemon between those two were included as playable characters, besides Lucario, and for plenty of good reasons.
:pichumelee: say hi
 

SmasherMaster

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Very few people liked him. He was basically added as last-minute roster filler, and was cut with no second thouhgts, unlike some other cut characters who have leftover data that suggests they were planned at some point.
Then again Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link were but people don't want them gone.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Then again Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link were.
...were what? Roster filler? There's little evidence to suggest any of those characters were decided upon at the last minute. And, unlike Pichu, only one of the characters you listed was a blatant clone of another character.
 

SmasherMaster

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At least Pichu being a clone makes sense. Makes more sense than Captain Gannodorf, the F-Zero racer with the triforce of power!
Plus, representation wise, Pichu was representing the Pokemon inn the Johto region and the baby evolutions. Jigglypuff only represented the normal type Pokemon.
 

Opossum

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At least Pichu being a clone makes sense. Makes more sense than Captain Gannodorf, the F-Zero racer with the triforce of power!
Plus, representation wise, Pichu was representing the Pokemon inn the Johto region and the baby evolutions. Jigglypuff only represented the normal type Pokemon.
Nope.

Pichu did not get in to "represent" anything. He was literally only put in as a last minute filler clone. If you think about it, we were close to not even getting a Gen II in the first place...
 

Spydr Enzo

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Spydr Enzo says bye... again.

Pichu was included as a joke character, not because he is from generation two. He was also added as a filler. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Also, the non-existant character from the third generation says hi. ;) Oh wait, it can't... because it never existed.

Plus, representation wise, Pichu was representing the Pokemon inn the Johto region and the baby evolutions. Jigglypuff only represented the normal type Pokemon.
Then again Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link were but people don't want them gone.
These two comments right here prove that you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Opossum

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Where did all of these Pokemon learn to talk? Chikorita to Genesect all have telepathy?
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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At least Pichu being a clone makes sense. Makes more sense than Captain Gannodorf, the F-Zero racer with the triforce of power!
Plus, representation wise, Pichu was representing the Pokemon inn the Johto region and the baby evolutions. Jigglypuff only represented the normal type Pokemon.
Why does it all have to be about specific representation with you? By your logic, Mewtwo was the Psyhuc type and Legenday representative. Lucario is the Fighting type representative. PKMN trainer is the Trainer class and Starter represent.

I guess you could say Peach is the Princess In Distress Representative. Meta Knight is the Anti-Hero in a Mask representative. Wolf is the Star Wolf representative.

Sakurai didn't look at Pokemon and think "well, I have a electric type in Smash. What other type can be represented? Oh I know! Normal!!".

Sakurai picked Jiggly because he felt it was a good rep for Pokemon and fit his criteria for a good character. It's typing was an after thought when designing her character to fit Smash 64.

:phone:
 
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Also, Jigglypuff was an easy model edit of Kirby.
Trufax. It's why she and Kirby share a lot of moves.
 

SmasherMaster

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Smash Bros is about having the characters that best represent Nintendo along with a few third parties whose characters that have ties with Nintendo.

Without representation is the reasons why some people are against characters such as Bandana Dee, Krystal, Kamek, Claus, and Luoie. Oh the series doesn't need another representative. Without representation in mind, we might just as well put in every video game character in existence.

"Let's just add in Master Chief because we can! Let's add in Magikarp because hey we have every other pokemon in the game! Hey, why don't we add in Mickey Mouse cause he's been in a video game?"
 
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Last I checked, Smash was just about having so-and-so fight whatshisname from Nintendo's franchises.

Besides, different point entirely from what we're saying.
You're saying the Pokemon like Jigglypuff "represent" a certain demographic and that's why they got in. When that's not the case.
Jigglypuff being a Normal type had nothing to do with her inclusion, and she's not the "Prime Minister" of Normal types. She was just added because she was a very popular Pokemon (Japan's #2 during Smash 64's time; Pikachu being #1) and was an easy model edit of Kirby.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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That's not what I'm talking you about. You said Jigglypuff represented the Normal type. By that logic, should every Pokemon type should have a representation. I was just applying that logic to other Nintendo franchises.

Sakurai doesn't sit in on his throne and think "oh, we have to to have an Ice type. Let's throw in one!". You are inferring that Jigglypuff soley got into Smash as a the rep for the Normal typing. Which is wrong on all levels.

:phone:
 

SmasherMaster

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I'm saying that the characters in Smash Bros should be in from representation of not only the series, but also the history of nintendo.

Also, I am not saying Jigglypuff is only in because it is a normal type. I also known that it had clone capabilities while it still could be different form Kirby. Also, Jigglypuff was a popular pokemon during the time the first game was coming out. (It still is today.)

But Pokemon characters such as Zoroark and Scizor have not only great populatiry but they also have a type and generation that none of the current pokemon fighters are.
 
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Scizor: Bug/Steel
Lucario: Fighting/Steel

Yeah....
But the problem is, no one really gives a crap about "Generation representation". Especially not Sakurai.
As I said before, Pokemon are Pokemon are Pokemon; it does not matter by Generation; every new one just means there's a new set of Pokemon to evaluate; doesn't mean there has to be one from it.

And you want to talk about representing the "History of Nintendo", yet you label Zoroark and Scizor that should get in.
What have they done to benefit Nintendo in any way? How are they at all important within Nintendo's history? And no, simply existing within a "Generation" does not count.

Typing does not matter either. Again, as we keep saying, Sakurai doesn't look at "Oh, *insert Pokemon* is *insert type*" and add characters based on that. It's not like being Bug type is any sort of merit to Scizor.
As for "great popularity", try again; Scizor is nowhere at that level. Think of who you're comparing it to; you're comparing it to the likes of Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario.

Face it; if Sakurai didn't see any viability in Scizor back when it debuted, he's not going to add it now just because "Oooh! He's a Bug type!" or "Oooh! He's a 2nd Gen!".

Long story short: Quit acting as though "Generations" and typing matter.
 

Spydr Enzo

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Without representation is the reasons why some people are against characters such as Bandana Dee, Krystal, Kamek, Claus, and Luoie. Oh the series doesn't need another representative. Without representation in mind, we might just as well put in every video game character in existence.
No one here is against proper representation. You just seem to have a skewed vision of how the Pokemon series should be represented. You seem to think that each Pokemon was included to represent a certain type or a certain generation, but this is horribly false. Neither type nor generation matter a single bit.

But Pokemon characters such as Zoroark and Scizor have not only great populatiry but they also have a type and generation that none of the current pokemon fighters are.
Who cares if neither their type nor their generation has any current playable representation? I can tell you one person who doesn't... Sakurai. It's just you, kid. And I would really like to know what puts a Pokemon like SCIZOR on the same level as Zoroark, Lucario, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. There is absolutely nothing that stands out about Scizor, and where is this "great popularity" that you speak of? Sounds like a lot of bias to me.
 

Ember Reaper

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I think this is what Smasher is talking about. I'll post all the pokemon you mentioned. Maybe a few others if they catch my eye.

Charizard #1

Mewtwo #2

Scizor #19

Lucario #32

Squirtle #46

Zoroark #68

Ivysaur #78

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Victini, Meowth aren't even on the list.
Seeing that this poll was rather sizable and Scizor tops everyone but Charizard and Mewtwo, for likely candidates. I think he's got the popularity for it.
Granted I don't think he will be in, but he has a huge fanbase.
 

N3ON

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I think this is what Smasher is talking about. I'll post all the pokemon you mentioned. Maybe a few others if they catch my eye.

Charizard #1

Mewtwo #2

Scizor #19

Lucario #32

Squirtle #46

Zoroark #68

Ivysaur #78

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Victini, Meowth aren't even on the list.
Seeing that this poll was rather sizable and Scizor tops everyone but Charizard and Mewtwo, for likely candidates. I think he's got the popularity for it.
Granted I don't think he will be in, but he has a huge fanbase.
Pikachu is on the list, he's number 48. And no one was arguing that Scizor isn't one of the more popular Pokemon, but just because he ranks high with the demographic that voted on this poll doesn't mean he is in the same class as the Pokemon playable in Smash. Scizor really has nothing going for him other than above average popularity. Plus he's already been dismissed by Sakurai when a 2nd gen was actually a possibility.

Plus there are 16 other Pokemon above Scizor on that list (not counting Mewtwo or Charizard) and I'm sure some of them would be able to work in Smash, but just because they have popularity among a certain demographic doesn't mean most of them are comparable to the iconic series staples and mascots already playable.
 

Opossum

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I honestly think part of what made Scizor that high was the competitive battlers, due to Scizor's presence in the meta game. Just a guess.


But as we've said, Smash isn't a Congress. Not all generations need "fair and equal representation." By that logic, we should have at least one new Fire Emblem character for each game.
 
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Not only that, but we would've had Ninten as well as Ness and Lucas.
 

Ember Reaper

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Pikachu is on the list, he's number 48. And no one was arguing that Scizor isn't one of the more popular Pokemon, but just because he ranks high with the demographic that voted on this poll doesn't mean he is in the same class as the Pokemon playable in Smash. Scizor really has nothing going for him other than above average popularity. Plus he's already been dismissed by Sakurai when a 2nd gen was actually a possibility.

Plus there are 16 other Pokemon above Scizor on that list (not counting Mewtwo or Charizard) and I'm sure some of them would be able to work in Smash, but just because they have popularity among a certain demographic doesn't mean most of them are comparable to the iconic series staples and mascots already playable.
Oh geez, for some reason I read he wasn't on it. Most of the Pokemon above Scizor are legendary, I'll do the same post for 18 up to Mewtwo.

Entei #18 Legendary Pokeball Pokemon

Gengar #17 (I would have no problem with this one.) But he floats and people could pass threw him.

Suicune #16 Legendary Pokeball Pokemon

Venusaur #15 We already have Ivysaur, this would be repetitive.

Ho-oh #14 Legendary Flying Pokeball Pokemon

Articuno #13 Legendary Flying Pokeball Pokemon

Arcanine #12 Ever since Ivysaur I don't see a problem here

Gyarados #11 Floats/Swims

Zekrom #10 In background, massive legendary pokemon

Tyranitar #9 No problem, he would just be very heavy

Zapdos #8 Flying Legendary Pokeball Pokemon

Rayquaza#7 Flying Legendary Boss Pokmeon

Mew #6 Floating Legendary Pokeball Pokemon (They could probably make Mew work, but we already have Mewtwo)

Dragonite #5 No problems from my side

Lugia #4 Flying Legendary Pokeball Pokemon

Blastoise #3 Already got squirtle

I see potential for a few, but most seems unfeasible, Still can't believe I managed to mis Pikachu on the list :(
 
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Gengar #17 (I would have no problem with this one.) But he floats and people could pass threw him.

Arcanine #12 Ever since Ivysaur I don't see a problem here

Zekrom #10 In background, massive legendary pokemon

Tyranitar #9 No problem, he would just be very heavy
I feel I have to make counterpoints to these.

1. Mewtwo floats, so that doesn't go against Gengar. Gengar is also capable of being hit, otherwise, Gengar would be invincible in the Pokemon games.

2. Unlike Ivysaur, Arcanine cannot use vines as an alternative to limbs, so that's not a good comparison. A better comparison would be Garurumon from Digimon Rumble Arena 2.

3. Zekrom's only 9 feet tall. That's smaller than Lugia, and Lugia isn't that massive in Smash.

4. In canon, Donkey Kong is 800lbs, almost double of Tyranitar. While weights are kind of messed up in Smash, it would be safe to assume Tyrantar would be around Bowser range. (Despite again, DK being heavier in canon).
 

jigglover

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Plus. Apparently, Tyranitar is more popular than Scizor and both can represent the second generation! He also doesn't share any types with any other pokemon, whereas Scizor and Lucario are both steel type. I mean, Tyranitar can represent rock AND dark types! Since Tyranitar beat multiple characters already in smash, losing only to Mewtwo and Charizard in fact! His popularity is WAY MORE than that of Pikachu and Jigglypuff and anybody else in a smash game already, it's also bigger than Zoroark and Victini and all gen 3 Pokemon!
TYRANITAR FOR SMASH 4! TYRANITAR FOR SMASH 4! TYRANITAR FOR SMASH 4! TYRANITAR!!!!!!!!
 

Ember Reaper

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I feel I have to make counterpoints to these.

1. Mewtwo floats, so that doesn't go against Gengar. Gengar is also capable of being hit, otherwise, Gengar would be invincible in the Pokemon games.

2. Unlike Ivysaur, Arcanine cannot use vines as an alternative to limbs, so that's not a good comparison. A better comparison would be Garurumon from Digimon Rumble Arena 2.

3. Zekrom's only 9 feet tall. That's smaller than Lugia, and Lugia isn't that massive in Smash.

4. In canon, Donkey Kong is 800lbs, almost double of Tyranitar. While weights are kind of messed up in Smash, it would be safe to assume Tyrantar would be around Bowser range. (Despite again, DK being heavier in canon).
It more so shows Mewtwo standing and able to walk whenever it's Gengar it generally shows him hovering, I was just saying some concerns. He's one of my favorites so that'd be awesome to see Gengar.

I don't play Digimon, so no clue what you mean, on that.

Zekrom has still been shown to be huge. I was trying to avoid size comparisons because it doesn't matter, but as a major legendary they're generally portrayed as gargantuan.

I was unaware, I can't see Tyranitar jumping very well, but that wouldn't be a problem for smash.
 

jigglover

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What game is Zekrom huge in? The only game I don't have which he's been in is pokemon conquest, is he giant in there?

Actually, thinking about it, he was ginormous in rumble blast wasn't he? That was mainly because he was the final boss and they generally are giant are they not? But then again, size ain't a problem for anyone wanting to get into smash.
 
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