Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[DragonSniperNintendo]

3rd gen didn't have any impact on brawl chars at all.

The Trainer was 3rd Gen, but from the Kanto remakes and not the Hoenn games

 

[Frostwraith]

Wow, back it up. If Brawl came out two years later, or hell, after BW, Lucario still would've made it. He got in because he's popular. Not because of advertising, as some people think. Lucario is still promoted today.

What I meant to say is that if 3rd was the latest as of Brawl, there'd be no Lucario as playable, because there would be no Lucario in the first place.

 

[FalKoopa]

The Trainer was 3rd Gen, but from the Kanto remakes and not the Hoenn games

Not enough examples, i'm afraid.

 

[Second Power]

What I meant to say is that if 3rd was the latest as of Brawl, there'd be no Lucario as playable, because there would be no Lucario in the first place.

Oh, my apologies.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

What I meant to say is that if 3rd was the latest as of Brawl, there'd be no Lucario as playable, because there would be no Lucario in the first place.

And I also said it doesn't have to ONLY be the latest.

The latest was Gen 4, sure, but Gen 3 was still recent as of the past gen a few years earlier.

That is why they might look into Gen 6 for SSB4 on terms of 3DS but could look at Gen 4 (2nd Gen Remakes as well) and Gen 5 for the Wii and DS.

 

[TheCreator]

But lucario was revealed early, like munchlax and bonsly.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The Trainer was 3rd Gen, but from the Kanto remakes and not the Hoenn games

Alright Sniper. Riddle me this.

You are saying that the developers took characters from Gen 3. Correct? So why not just have a Hoeen Trainer? Emerald was the latest game in that Gen. Why not use them?

I'll tell you why.

Gen 1 is much more popular. Developers recognized that.

 

[N3ON]

From several pages back by now (this thread is moving too damn fast ), but I wanted to comment on this anyway.

Not necessarily. GS is dead and Xenoblade is more recent and more successful than the GS franchise. The circumstances for characters now are different now too. There is more room for niche characters to get in. Isaac kinda missed his boat and with hype surrounding "X" Shulk's chances are looking very good.

GS is dead in the way every series that didn't receive a game for three years is dead. In other words, pretty much every Nintendo series except Mario and Pokemon at one point. Sure, chances may not be with the series continuing without influence from Smash, but, like Habanero said, the last game ended on a cliffhanger, and Camelot doesn't seem opposed to one day making another GS, so at this point in time declaring the series "dead" is definitely jumping the gun. It's not like F-Zero, which hasn't gotten a game in ten years, or Mother, where the created stated the series was finished.

That's not how corporations and business works. There is actually a ton of legal issues that need to be sorted out before 2nd party characters are added. You're still borrowing IP, even if they work for you, you simply can't go up to them and say, "hey, we're taking your **** since you work for us, you cool with that?"

Yes, there might be legal issues standing in the way of some characters, but if Sakurai has used them in some capacity before, and is willing to use both 2nd and 3rd party characters in the roster, there is no precedence for assuming specific IPs won't get in at this point, we have no proof of anything.

Yeah, I guess. Thing is, the franchise has little to no light left in it, and honestly it isn't THAT good nor well known. Meanwhile Xenoblade is hailed as the best RPG of this generation in several circles (whether or not I agree with that statement is something else), and is generally more well known than GS was back then among gamers.

Most of this is quite untrue. To start with, the original Golden Sun and Xenoblade have received very similar average scores, only off by a single percentage. In its day, GS 1&2 were acknowledged as extremely good games, and were generally considered the best RPGs of the GBA. One of the reasons Xenoblade is regarded as the best JRPG of this generation is partly due to the overall decline in prominence and prevalence of the genre. I'm not saying Xenoblade doesn't deserve all the accolades it has received, personally it is also my favourite JRPG of this gen, but it does have admittedly much less notable competition for critically marveled JRPGs as the sixth gen did.

Secondly, in its time, the original Golden Sun was just as well known, if not moreso, than Xenoblade. It's true that we are more well-connected nowadays than back when GS came out, but the people who followed, tracked, and supported Operation Rainfall are in reality, only a small percentage of the total market aware of games. The truth is that the original Golden Sun outsold Xenoblade in every region, and in general more than doubled its sales. The audience for Golden Sun was much larger than Xenoblade's, and would comparatively be more well known. This isn't even taking The Lost Age into account, which also outsold Xenoblade. The reason Xenoblade seems more prominent than Golden Sun in general is simply because it made waves among the JRPG starved when it came out, and it is significantly more recent, in an age more connected.

Comparing the impact of each series, Golden Sun at this point still outweighs Xenoblade.

GS was VERY niche back in the day, the internet was still relatively less connected, and news got around much slower. Only popular games saw the light of day for the most part, as word of mouth was what carried info, and review sites like IGN and Gamespot was still largely trustworthy.

GS was hardly niche. It was a million-seller on the GBA in a time when its genre still had a fair amount of popularity. Like I said above, it's true that we were less connected, but if anything the sales of GS are a testament to how a game can succeed even with fewer people connecting to see how it fared critically. Imagine Xenoblade's future had it been released in 2001. It most likely wouldn't have even made it out of Japan. There is no way GS was more niche than a game in a drastically decreasingly unpopular genre sold at one store at the tail end of a dying casual-oriented console.

Nowadays things are much different. The internet is much more connected, review sites can't be trusted and word of mouth dominates. Games find it much more easy to get advertised as viral news and information travel across the net in mere minutes. Perhaps if Xenoblade was born in the same era of GS it would have remained as niche and undiscovered as GS, but the thing is Xenoblade was born in JUST the right time for it to launch as a very well know RPG on the Wii. I would honestly put it on the same scale as Bayonetta in terms of notoriety.

By this logic Xenoblade should've been just as successful, if not more, than Golden Sun. Granted, I have no memories of the extent of Golden's Sun coverage, but I'm guessing Xenoblade received much more unofficial coverage than Golden Sun ever did, in an age drastically more connected, like you said, yet it wasn't as well received commercially. Like I said, for what it was, GS's reception was a testament to itself.

I dunno man, it struck me as niche at the time. I heard of it because of a friend and never really bothered to try it. The only time I ever heard GS get brought up was usually during Brawl speculation threads. It never seemed to create much of a buzz imo, and no one I knew despite one friend ever really even heard of it.

Believe it or not, your personal experience with a game doesn't necessarily dictate the general opinion of it. I know, crazy.

Just because it struck you as niche doesn't mean it was. It wasn't. I'm sure Xenoblade is striking a whole lot more people as niche than Golden Sun ever did, because at this point, and in this situation, it is a lot more niche.

Maybe it's because I personally was more of a plebian in regards to taste back in the day and only played AAA titles. But also, I think around 1mil copies is rather low for a game, during an era where news didn't get around as much as they do now.

If a JRPG of a new unproven IP on a fledgling console selling 1 million (and its sequel selling almost as much) is low, then I shudder to think what selling less than half of that on a system that, at the time, had sold umpteen times more, with a game that had received quite a bit more coverage, even if "games are selling less today". Regardless of Xenoblade and the current market, selling 1 million copies has never been "low".

So really, 200k is better than you make it sound today. Not to mention, thanks to Project Rainfall, Xenoblade has managed to forge a name for itself. Something GS could never really do. It never really stood out. It was just another RPG on the GBA console. Dark Dawn could in many ways be an example how GS fares in a modern environment. If Dark Dawn had been more close to it's predecessors would it have been a bigger commercial success? It think otherwise as most of the people who bought it were fans of the series already. Meanwhile Monolith's "X" is hyping many as a potential system seller for the WiiU. Golden Sun could never do that.

Golden Sun more than doubling Xenoblade, with less online buzz, and very similar reviews proves that even if you want to adjust for times, Golden Sun would still have made a larger impact, in its time. Isaac was just as, if not more, popular than Shulk is in every region, and the truth is Dark Dawn didn't sell that far off from Xenoblade either, even if vastly inferior. The Golden Sun series, to this point has made a larger impact in general than Xenoblade, which is what Sakurai looks at. He doesn't just look at recentness, he doesn't just judge series based on the last game in the series, or look at gaps and emphasize low points of a series, he looks at the impact of the entire series up the that point, which, at this point, Golden Sun still has made more of than Xenoblade, even if Xenoblade happened in an age more connected and more recent. Now, this isn't taking into account X, as we really don't know enough about the game and how it related to Xenoblade yet.

-was it? I always assumed it sold less than Melee

Basing your arguments off assumptions isn't terribly credible.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Stop trying to make that Pichu, Pokemon Trainer argument. You're trying to make us all seem stupid.

No I'm not, you're doing a fine enough job of that yourself.

Roy was a slower, more powerful Marth. So is Ike.

Um...no. I seriously can't believe there's anyone who still thinks Ike is a Marth clone. He's just not. They share ONE MOVE. That's it.

But they completely revamped Ike's moveset to have a more original Fire Emblem character. But there are still similarities (down b, normal b is fire based and up b has been tweaked a litte)

If by 'tweaked a little' you mean 'a completely different move, then yes, his ^B was 'tweaked a little.'

Lucario has Mewtwo's normal b attack. Literally the exact same. Same properties. Charge in the air, hurts people as it charges. Lucario is just a more relevant legendary Pokemon character. They'd have 4 first gen representatives if Mewtwo came back.

1st, Lucatio isn't a legendary. He's a normal Pokemon that happens to be important/popular.
2nd, are you really trying to say two characters are similar because of ONE MOVE? You nkow who else shares a move? Bowser and Charizard, but nobody complains about that. Samus has a similar nB to Mewtwo/Lucario as well. Are you one of those people that only evaluates characters based on their specials?
3rd

We don't play as generations, we play as characters.

There's no evidence that Sakurai really gives a sh*t about representing generations.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Alright Sniper. Riddle me this.

You are saying that the developers took characters from Gen 3. Correct? So why not just have a Hoeen Trainer? Emerald was the latest game in that Gen. Why not use them?

I'll tell you why.

Gen 1 is much more popular. Developers recognized that.

Right on the money,

Do you realize what would happen if sakurai cut the most popular Pokemon of all time, a Pokemon with its own 3ds it will make cutting mewtwo look like cutting pichu

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Alright Sniper. Riddle me this.

You are saying that the developers took characters from Gen 3. Correct? So why not just have a Hoeen Trainer? Emerald was the latest game in that Gen. Why not use them?

I'll tell you why.

Gen 1 is much more popular. Developers recognized that.

This is true, but it was still his GEN 3 version

Gen 3, the Hoenn games, got a boss and Pokeball Pokemon though.

 

[TheCreator]

This is true, but it was still his GEN 3 version

Implying he was changed at all, and not just given color.

 

[lobotheduck21]

This is true, but it was still his GEN 3 version

Don't mean he is getting replaced

 

[FalKoopa]

This is true, but it was still his GEN 3 version

Gen 3, the Hoenn games, got a boss and Pokeball Pokemon though.

You're still sticking to it... Come off it now.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Implying he was changed at all, and not just given color.

There were some changes

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

They updated Red's design. So the **** what?

It's still Red

 

[TheCreator]

Where'd you get that picture? The older one
Source

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

They updated Red's design. So the **** what?

I did the pictures to show they used his UPDATED SELF from the 3rd Gen/1st Gen Remakes

They usually use the recent versions unless it comes to retros

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

They'll use the current design of characters.

Like the Legend of Zelda

What's the point?

 

[TheCreator]

I did the pictures to show they used his UPDATED SELF from the 3rd Gen/1st Gen Remakes

They usually use the recent versions unless it comes to retros

Show me the source where you got that picture of old red.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

They'll use the current design of characters.

Like the Legend of Zelda

What's the point?

That IS THE POINT

 

[Frostwraith]

He was actually changed.

It's like Link having the look from Twilight Princess. A character from the original game of the franchise having an updated look from a more recent game. Simple as thatl.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

[COLLAPSE="Stuff"]

[/COLLAPSE]

There were some changes

Yeah

Red buttoned up his jacket and put on a different hat and different shoes.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Show me the source where you got that picture of old red.

He doesn't need to. That IS what Red looked like Gen 1

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I did the pictures to show they used his UPDATED SELF from the 3rd Gen/1st Gen Remakes

They usually use the recent versions unless it comes to retros

That doesn't actually change anything.

They updated Pikachu from his chubby beginnings.

They still choose Red as apposed to any other trainer. They just gave him his current look. How does that count towards replacing him?

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Show me the source where you got that picture of old red.

I found them both on Google, searching for Pokemon Trainer Red.

The first one is what he looked like in Gen 1 on the Gameboy. The second is what he looked like in Gen 3 on the GBA.

 

[TheCreator]

It's just, I've never seen the old red concept art. I think that's interesting. What was it in the original game manuels or something?

I severely doubt Red would be removed. They tried to implement a Pokemon Trainer idea, in Melee, but didn't know how to go about doing it. They were going to use Ethan. Seems they figured it out huh? Given that I wouldn't be surprised if we got ANOTHER Pokemon trainer, with the name of Pokemon Rival or something.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

It's just, I've never seen the old red concept art. I think that's interesting. What was it in the original game manuels or something?

Yes it was, and basically a similar version in the manga

 

[Frostwraith]

Redesign or not, he's still the trainer from Gen I, NOT from Gen III.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

That doesn't actually change anything.

They updated Pikachu from his chubby beginnings.

They still choose Red as apposed to any other trainer. They just gave him his current look. How does that count towards replacing him?

When did I ever say anything about replacing?

Yes I said a few pages back about using Gold/Ethan instead but that wasn't in this whole what version of Red they picked discussion. It was just to show that the previous gen has a pretty big effect on the roster and game.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

When did I ever say anything about replacing?

Yes I said a few pages back about using Gold/Ethan instead but that wasn't in this whole what version of Red they picked discussion. It was just to show that the previous gen has a pretty big effect on the roster and game.

JUST if the character has been redesigned

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Redesign or not, he's still the trainer from Gen I, NOT from Gen III.

But still, they chose his version from the last generation on the last gen at the time.

THAT is what I was getting at.

 

[lobotheduck21]

This argument of the red redesign is a worse argument then the one between me and diddy on whether a version of shiek has to be trained by impa

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

JUST if the character has been redesigned

Which he was and that is what they chose

Just saying

 

[FalKoopa]

He's just stating the same thing again and again.

 

[TheCreator]

I severely doubt Red would be removed. They tried to implement a Pokemon Trainer idea, in Melee, but didn't know how to go about doing it. They were going to use Ethan. Seems they figured it out huh? Given that I wouldn't be surprised if we got ANOTHER Pokemon trainer, with the name of Pokemon Rival or something.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

He's just stating the same thing again and again.

Because everyone else is coming in and trying to get in the conversation :mistyface:

 

[Frostwraith]

A circular argument... >_>

Can we just change the subject and move on? We're getting nowhere with this...

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

I severely doubt Red would be removed. They tried to implement a Pokemon Trainer idea, in Melee, but didn't know how to go about doing it. They were going to use Ethan. Seems they figured it out huh? Given that I wouldn't be surprised if we got ANOTHER Pokemon trainer, with the name of Pokemon Rival or something.

They could have Red and Ethan because of the final battle at the end of Johto (Heart Gold and Soul Silver).

Two trainers that started from their hometowns and became better to both defeat Team Rocket and become league champions. The major battle they had at Mt. Silver, Ethan going after the legend.

In SSB4's case, Feraligatr vs Charizard.

Easily part of the story mode.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So....

Puppies....

Who else likes them?

Spoiler

What do you guys think about Little Mac?