Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Vyzor]

This is somewhat unrelated but, I really hope that the next Smash Bros. all the characters get their own version of their series victory song (like MetaKnight). Metaknight being the only character to have his own victory theme while being from the same series as other characters was pretty stupid. That was Sakurai basically just being like "Yep! Only my characters deserve stuff like this!"

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I'd love to see black Shadow, but I agree that it's probably either him or Goroh, but not both. The only other characters that maybe have a chance are Pico, Dr. Stewart, and Jody Summers, but those are BIG maybes.

 

[Deleted member]

Well I heard from a from a friend of a friend of a friend of my sister that PJ is the most requested F-Zero character

Spoiler

in Strong Badia.

So HA.

What were we talking about?

Except that ChronoBound has been around the Smash speculation scene since pre-Melee. If he was still around, he could easily confirm this information.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Except that ChronoBound has been around the Smash speculation scene since pre-Melee. If he was still around, he could easily confirm this information.

I was kidding. And I deleted my post because the joke wasn't funny.

 

[Parasol]

Eh, the creator of the game should have the right to favor his own series once in a while. Thankfully, Sakurai is mature enough to realize that there are much more important names to the Nintendo universe. Remember that Mario Bros. had five representatives in Melee while Kirby still only had the mascot. Sure, King Dedede was intended, but still, he's been good about representation all-around. It's not like his characters weren't highly requested, either. I just find it funny how Kirby is always somewhere near the middle of the roster, but perhaps that's looking too far into it.

 

[N3ON]

@N3ON: I heard from ChronoBound that Samurai Goroh has been regularly requested since pre-Melee.

Yeah, I was exaggerating a little when I said F-Zero requests were more recent, I mostly meant that even though F-Zero characters (though mostly just Goroh) have been requested for obviously a fairly long time, a second F-Zero character was never at the top of the list while requests for another Kirby character carried a bit more weight. I worded it poorly, I don't doubt that characters like Goroh have been brought since Melee, my bad.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm giving you a lazy response because I'm going to bed.

I'm not ignoring what you say because of what you say;
I'm only discounting what is wrong. You have yet to prove that Black Shadow is the main villain on the series, and only use the beginning of a user written article that combines the anime canon with the main canon to support your case, while I have the main series itself as my support.
As I said before, X gives nothing to Black Shadow that doesn't put him above Zoda. Both are evil racers of malicious intent, both have some background history with Falcon taking down their goons, and both want revenge. GX has Black Shadow begging at Deathborn's heels in the very first cutscene, and Deathborn even KILLS him later for his failures. How that translates to "Black Shadow is the main villain" is beyond me.

The fact that they picked him for use in the anime kind of tells you who is the villain of the series. You can tell who people really see as the villian.

The Zoda thing makes no sense. Zoda doesn't really do anything compared to Black Shadow (who was the advisory for 7/9 of GX). Note that this is only one cog in the machine. The popularity issue is one thing that in Shadow's favor that is not in other characters favor.

You want me to take your argument seriously? Actually bring in real evidence from the games themselves or even statements from Nintendo.

I don't think you know how this works. We are arguing the strength of the characters. I don't need to write a paragraph to be bullish on a character a lot of people like.

I also love how you choose to ignore that the main reason why people want him is because they want him to be a method for Ganondorf to get a new moveset while his old moveset stays by Black Shadow inheriting it. In other words, they want a clone. They don't want him for him; they want him to end the Captain Ganon issue. That's not real support.

Your assuming the reason matters (i even mentioned that earlier, which shows me you are ignoring my post).

Of course, you know little of what going on as well. Black Shadow is wanted as his own character in Japan and goes toe to toe with the rest.

[

And what seals the idea that your argument comes off as fanboyish is that you use subjective points for why the two characters are "more likely" or "better" than the other characters, when I'm not arguing for why the characters are better or more likely. I'm arguing for how those characters are "strong" for their respective series and why they shouldn't be overlooked.
I mean, you can't really argue who is more popular or recogniseable between, say, Black Shadow or Jimmy T., and likewise, neither can I. It's all a manner of subjectivity unless we have numerous sources, which neither of us have.
You can't use the "bigger series" argument, as it doesn't mean anything in the long run; StarFox is a lesser series than Metroid (so is F-Zero. You did not just say F-Zero was bigger than Metroid...) and yet StarFox has more characters.
As for "discussion", do you really think Sakurai gives a rat's @$$ whether people on a forum are discussing more about Black Shadowdorf or about Porkio (Porky as some wierd Wario clone)? Until Sakurai throws another poll himself, we cannot determine who is likely based on discussion. Need I remind you of Geno?

I can say that Jimmy T is far less popular because no one, anywhere, brings him up. No discussion. Does bad on polls. Fill in the blanks.

Most of what I'm saying you have to just understand. It has to click. When I talk about character strength, I'm looking all over Nintendo, not series by series. How memorable are they. How much could people like them. Their look. Personality. Do people want them now. Goroh and Shadow both fit this bill. What I mention is related to this and nothing more. I'm not bringing in some empirical evidence because there isn't any. Simply put, it's just what we can gauge. Your looking too much at small things (like who the real villain is. Doesn't matter) and not the whole picture.

Either way is fine... but honestly, does it matter? Black Shadow barely has a chance (if he even has a chance), and that's only because he has to compete with Samurai Goroh, who is far more qualified for a playable spot than Black Shadow is. But will F-Zero actually get a second playable character? (I'm quite positive they won't get two... that's overkill for a series like F-Zero)

Except both can be in. Your logic in why Shadow wont be in is the rep. fallacy. Outside of Mario and Pokemon, Sakurai doesn't care if he adds too many and is more concerned with the characters themselves, not if the series is "over represented."

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

(I'm quite positive they won't get two... that's overkill for a series like F-Zero)
Sure, the series is dead

When will people realize that F-Zero is not dead and that Shigeru Miyamoto himself has confirmed that it is not, plus, even if it is "overkill", Sakurai is the one who decides who gets in or not, even if it is "overkill" (see: Lucas)

Except both can be in. Your logic in why Shadow wont be in is the rep. fallacy. Outside of Mario and Pokemon, Sakurai doesn't care if he adds too many and is more concerned with the characters themselves, not if the series is "over represented."

THIS. THIS TO THE ******* MAX.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm giving you a lazy response because I'm going to bed.


The fact that they picked him for use in the anime kind of tells you who is the villain of the series. You can tell who people really see as the villian.

Well, I guess Nightmare is the main villain of the Kirby series. Afterall, they chose him as the main villain for the anime, not Dark Matter, not Zero, etc.

The Zoda thing makes no sense. Zoda doesn't really do anything compared to Black Shadow (who was the advisory for 7/9 of GX). Note that this is only one cog in the machine. The popularity issue is one thing that in Shadow's favor that is not in other characters favor.


You keep overestimating his popularity as if he's one of the most popular characters for Smash 4, when he really isn't, which I will explain in a later point.

And while Black Shadow raised a bit of ruckus in GX's story mode (the only time we actually see him do something as yet AGAIN, he doesn't do anything in X that puts him above Zoda, who AGAIN, is another villain wanting revenge on Falcon for interfering with their plans just like Black Shadow), it was all under Deathborn's command.
Really, you act like he's the main villain when he only did anything in one game while following orders. How does that sound anything like a main villain?


I don't think you know how this works. We are arguing the strength of the characters. I don't need to write a paragraph to be bullish on a character a lot of people like.

Apparently stating complete facts make me being bullish.

Your assuming the reason matters (i even mentioned that earlier, which shows me you are ignoring my post).

It does. After all, Geno was only wanted because people thought he was cool and felt he was for sure going to be a lock just because he's talked about often. You can see how well that turned out.

Of course, you know little of what going on as well. Black Shadow is wanted as his own character in Japan and goes toe to toe with the rest.

You have no proof of this. Literally, the only things we have to go by is this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13578371&postcount=0
Where again, "Black Shadowdorf" comes up "more than once". Nothing is said about him being his own character here.
And this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14163708&postcount=87361
Where all it states is that Black Shadow is easily the favorite for a F-Zero newcomer. Nowhere here does it state that he's "toe-to-toe" with anyone. After all, it says Waluigi and Starfy have the most newcomer requests here. And we can't say it's for him being his own character, as we don't know.

[
I can say that Jimmy T is far less popular because no one, anywhere, brings him up. No discussion. Does bad on polls. Fill in the blanks.

So just because you haven't seen anywhere where he's talked about means he is never talked about. Nice generalizations.
By this logic, Waluigi is pretty much guaranteed.

Most of what I'm saying you have to just understand. It has to click. When I talk about character strength, I'm looking all over Nintendo, not series by series. How memorable are they. How much could people like them. Their look. Personality. Do people want them now. Goroh and Shadow both fit this bill. What I mention is related to this and nothing more. I'm not bringing in some empirical evidence because there isn't any. Simply put, it's just what we can gauge. Your looking too much at small things (like who the real villain is. Doesn't matter) and not the whole picture.

You should have said this in the first place.
However, while Goroh and Black Shadow both "fit", this does not give any indincation that both together are any likely.
Black Shadow's best chance would have been in Brawl, as characters were being decided in 2005-2006. The anime recently ended in 2005. If Sakurai really found worth in Black Shadow, he would have been a character or at the very least, an Assist. He was neither.

What you also need to understand, is that just because Black Shadow has a bit of requests in Japan doesn't make him very likely.
Otherwise, again, Waluigi would be one of the top Newcomers. He's CLEARLY got major support in Japan; more than B. Shadow has ever got. As well as outside of Japan support, which is where Goroh dominates B. Shadow instead.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Geno is cool. I supported him because I liked Geno and Super Mario RPG was my favorite game when I was younger.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Even though this is an argument about the Great Falcon's series, which I appove, I think we should just drop it here, 'cause, y'know, it is Sakurai who decides who gets in or not.
"B-but Sakurai likes Goroh better!" so what ? What if he likes Black Shadow too ? What if he decides to add both of them in SSB4 with completely unique movesets like the way that he did for Falcon in SSB64 ?
I think that alot of people, not only here but pretty much everywhere, tend to forget about the most important factor to a character's inclusion in Smash, which is Sakurai.
It dosen't matter if the character is the most important in his series or the most requested if Sakurai dosen't think he's worthy.
"b-but [insert argument here]" even if this is the most well written and well thought argument in the world, it's still not gonna stop Sakurai from doing what he wants to do.

 

[Ember Reaper]

How does everyone feel about the concept of 50 characters? That number has been thrown around and when I think it atleast, it would mean 50 character slots on the roster. But what if when Sakurai says 50 characters he actually means 50 movesets, so we would get 11 entirely new movesets (because 39 movesets in brawl).

I thought about this yesterday

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

i dont think 50 characters is out of the realm of possibility, but with the "focus" of the next game not really being characters, i wouldnt be surprised if we saw a few less. My prediction roster is at 49 characters, about 54 with transformations. I dont think we will really know until more information is released for the game

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I don't think we will see anymore than 52 characters (movesets) meaning less than 50 slots, maybe around 47.

 

[Deleted member]

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

while we're talking about it, im in the process of editing my roster, and if you guys want to take a look at it i can post it. Im open to criticism on it, as thats the reason why i would post it. I may have posted it awhile back in this thread, but i've messed with it a bit so it isnt exactly the same

 

[SmasherMaster]

Eh, the creator of the game should have the right to favor his own series once in a while. Thankfully, Sakurai is mature enough to realize that there are much more important names to the Nintendo universe. Remember that Mario Bros. had five representatives in Melee while Kirby still only had the mascot. Sure, King Dedede was intended, but still, he's been good about representation all-around. It's not like his characters weren't highly requested, either. I just find it funny how Kirby is always somewhere near the middle of the roster, but perhaps that's looking too far into it.

That's cause Kirby is the center of attraction in Smash Bros. He is the main character in the story mode while Meta Knight and King Dedede are also major characters. Even more than Pikachu and Mario

When will people realize that F-Zero is not dead and that Shigeru Miyamoto himself has confirmed that it is not, plus, even if it is "overkill", Sakurai is the one who decides who gets in or not, even if it is "overkill" (see: Lucas)



THIS. THIS TO THE ******* MAX.

Lucas was planned to be in Melee instead of Ness. It's like how he added Bowser, Mewtwo, Dedede, and Pit in Melee and Brawl because they were planned for Smash Bros 64. He loves to add characters he planned to add in.

 

[Opossum]

That's cause Kirby is the center of attraction in Smash Bros. He is the main character in the story mode while Meta Knight and King Dedede are also major characters. Even more than Pikachu and Mario



Lucas was planned to be in Melee instead of Ness. It's like how he added Bowser, Mewtwo, Dedede, and Pit in Melee and Brawl because they were planned for Smash Bros 64. He loves to add characters he planned to add in.

NRFGISNGWKRG ERGERG E J...

okay...I calmed down.

There is actually no proof of Pit being planned for Smash 64. Nor Peach, nor Meowth. They're just rumors that have no evidence.

 

[8-peacock-8]

First off, Peach actually does fight and is not a damsel in distress. Super Princess Peach and Super Mario Bros. 2 for example.

And she tried to escape Bowser's castle in 3D Land.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol, I see SmashChu making a post.

I'm just going to say this; I don't feel like arguing tonight, save it for another time.

 

[SmashChu]

Most of your point were pretty bad, the Jimmy T one especially. We're only going to focus on this, because it's all that really matter in your replies.

You should have said this in the first place.
However, while Goroh and Black Shadow both "fit", this does not give any indincation that both together are any likely.
Black Shadow's best chance would have been in Brawl, as characters were being decided in 2005-2006. The anime recently ended in 2005. If Sakurai really found worth in Black Shadow, he would have been a character or at the very least, an Assist. He was neither.
What you also need to understand, is that just because Black Shadow has a bit of requests in Japan doesn't make him very likely.
Otherwise, again, Waluigi would be one of the top Newcomers. He's CLEARLY got major support in Japan; more than B. Shadow has ever got. As well as outside of Japan support, which is where Goroh dominates B. Shadow instead.

First, we aren't talking about Waluigi, but the F-Zero guys. Bringing up him shows the lack of focus in your thought process.

The problem is your using old tired idea which we found out in Brawl doesn't work. For instance, it doesn't matter if the anime ended a while ago. Sakurai doesn't care about those stretches of time and adds characters despite if they are in the public eye or not. It was 5 years between the last Mother/Metroid game and Smash 64.

The reason Sakurai adds two characters is because they are two usable characters. I'm saying there are two characters from the F-Zero series, and everything else I'm saying is why they are strong characters. Again, it's not one factor, but the culmination of them. Both have a strong case of why they should be in and no one is going to oppose F-Zero characters (same goes for Metroid).

Again, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

And by the way, bullish means to be confident on something. Like bullish on a stock. Also, CB came out with more information on who's popular. This info is only from one message board.

 

[Deleted member]

> Claims my points are bad.
> Makes equally bad ones.
> Completely ignores that I do not want to argue tonight.

I'm just going to go ahead and end this with this last point:
While yes, both are "strong" for whatever stretched reason you may give, it does not make both together at all likely, nor are they the only options available for "strong" characters, which was my main point in the first place.

Now let's leave it at that.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Lucas was planned to be in Melee instead of Ness. It's like how he added Bowser, Mewtwo, Dedede, and Pit in Melee and Brawl because they were planned for Smash Bros 64. He loves to add characters he planned to add in.

Well, yeah, he was planned for Melee, but, the series only has 3 games, so don't you think having 2 characters represent 3 games is a little bit "overkill" ?

 

[Deleted member]

No. Having 4+ would be overkill. 3 would be borderline.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

No. Having 4+ would be overkill. 3 would be borderline.

I would put something here arguing against Spydr Enzo for thinking that 3 F-Zeros would be overkill, but, your opinion differs from his, and, I don't feel like creating pointless arguments which would lead to simply nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

No no no, he's not saying 3 characters would be overkill (or at least I don't think he's saying that), I think he's saying that 2 NEW characters for F-Zero added at the same time at this point would be overkill.
To which I agree. One can get in now, the other can get in later.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

No no no, he's not saying 3 characters would be overkill (or at least I don't think he's saying that), I think he's saying that 2 NEW characters for F-Zero added at the same time at this point would be overkill.
To which I agree. One can get in now, the other can get in later.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Two new F-Zero characters when we have a limited roster and there are more deserving characters to get in? Yeah, not gonna happen. If the roster keeps expanding and the characters remain popular, than maybe I could see three in future installments.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Two new F-Zero characters when we have a limited roster and there are more deserving characters to get in? Yeah, not gonna happen. If the roster keeps expanding and the characters remain popular, than maybe I could see three in future installments.

More deserving characters such as ? Krystal and Tingle ?
Plus, it's Sakurai who decides the roster, if he wants to add 2 F-Zeros he will add 2 F-Zeros, whether you like it or not.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

More deserving characters such as ? Krystal and Tingle?

-F-Zero is deserving of one more character (most likely Samurai Goroh). But before another one is considered, think about characters like this:
-King K. Rool
-Dixie Kong
-Toad
-Ridley
-Mewtwo
-Possible 5th Generation Pokemon (Zoroark?)
-Roy or Krom
-New franchise characters like Little Mac, Isaac, Shulk
-Two or three random retro characters
-another possible third party character, like Megaman
-Other characters that I am forgetting right now

Plus, it's Sakurai who decides the roster, if he wants to add 2 F-Zeros he will add 2 F-Zeros, whether you like it or not.

Well, no ****. If Sakurai wanted to add the entire freaking F-Zero cast, he could. But Sakurai obviously understands the importance of some character additions over others (which is why we still have not seen even a second F-Zero rep).

And whether I like it or not? Frankly, I wouldn't give much of a crap if Sakurai added 2 new F-Zero characters. I trust his judgement. I'm only questioning the likelihood of that happening... which isn't very good.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

-F-Zero is deserving of one more character (most likely Samurai Goroh). But before another one is considered, think about characters like this:
-King K. Rool
-Dixie Kong
-Toad
-Ridley
-Mewtwo
-Possible 5th Generation Pokemon (Zoroark?)
-Roy or Krom
-New franchise characters like Little Mac, Isaac, Shulk
-Two or three random retro characters
-another possible third party character, like Megaman
-Other characters that I am forgetting right now



Well, no ****. If Sakurai wanted to add the entire freaking F-Zero cast, he could. But Sakurai obviously understands the importance of some character additions over others (which is why we still have not seen even a second F-Zero rep).

And whether I like it or not? Frankly, I wouldn't give much of a crap if Sakurai added 2 new F-Zero characters. I trust his judgement. I'm only questioning the likelihood of that happening... which isn't very good.

Okay, and, what if all of the characters that you listed appeared and we got 2 F-Zero characters ?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Okay, and, what if all of the characters that you listed appeared and we got 2 F-Zero characters ?

You're not listening to me...

If we did, I think that'd be freaking sweet!

But neither YOU nor I decide the roster. Sakurai does. He can do whatever the hell he wants, but chances are, he doesn't add two F-Zero characters. Don't expect it. I'm not saying it won't happen. ANYTHING could happen, so stop throwing pointless scenarios at me... it doesn't help your case at all. But the odds are against it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

You're not listening to me...

People not listening to others in forums ? What a surprise !
Anyways, I think you should word your posts a little bit better, since, while having 3 F-Zero reps is not impossible, you make it sound like it is.

 

[N3ON]

People not listening to others in forums ? What a surprise !
Anyways, I think you should word your posts a little bit better, since, while having 3 F-Zero reps is not impossible, you make it sound like it is.

In the post right above yours he says that having 3 F-Zero reps isn't an impossibility ("I'm not saying it won't happen. ANYTHING could happen"), it's just not very likely at all, which is the truth.

Pretty much everything he's said so fair has been intelligible and sensible. Maybe you should read a bit more carefully.

And technically Tingle is more deserving. He has his own series, which is quite popular in Japan. Sure, him having a massive hatebase will probably keep him out of Smash (and I'm not advocating for him or anything), but honestly he is more deserving than a character like Black Shadow. I think you're confusing unpopular or controversial with undeserving.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

In the post right above yours he says that having 3 F-Zero reps isn't an impossibility ("I'm not saying it won't happen. ANYTHING could happen"), it's just not very likely at all, which is the truth.

Pretty much everything he's said so fair has been intelligible and sensible. Maybe you should read a bit more carefully.

And technically Tingle is more deserving. He has his own series, which is quite popular in Japan. Sure, him having a massive hatebase will probably keep him out of Smash (and I'm not advocating for him or anything), but honestly he is more deserving than a character like Black Shadow. I think you're confusing unpopular or controversial with undeserving.

Tingle being more deserving than any potential newcomer ? [insert long, uncontrallable laughter here], [reads other things on post] oh... okay...

 

[SmasherMaster]

There is only one thing that won't happen in the next Smash Bros game. 3 newcomers for any series! not even Mario

 

[N3ON]

There is only one thing that won't happen in the next Smash Bros game. 3 newcomers for any series! not even Mario

I agree, but no one was suggesting there would be three newcomers for one single series, just 3 F-Zero characters total, which even that is unlikely. Two newcomers for a series is possible though, with the most likely series to get two being Donkey Kong. There's a slight chance it could happen to like Metroid or even F-Zero I suppose, but that would probably be due to last-minute semi-clones.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm willing to bet no series gets a newcomer double dip this time around.

Not even Donkey Kong. I mean, Dixie was only planned as a tag-partner to Diddy. When that didn't work, she was scrapped entirely instead of being made her own character. Doesn't really seem Sakurai sees much in her.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

People not listening to others in forums ? What a surprise !
Anyways, I think you should word your posts a little bit better, since, while having 3 F-Zero reps is not impossible, you make it sound like it is.

...Seriously, have you even actually read anything that I posted? If you want to reply to someone, it's probably best to read their post first...

Pretty much everything he's said so fair has been intelligible and sensible. Maybe you should read a bit more carefully.

Thanks for the support, N3ON.

I'm willing to bet no series gets a newcomer double dip this time around.

Not even Donkey Kong. I mean, Dixie was only planned as a tag-partner to Diddy. When that didn't work, she was scrapped entirely instead of being made her own character. Doesn't really seem Sakurai sees much in her.

True, but what would stop Sakurai from revisiting the idea if he thought it was interesting? Maybe it didn't work the first time around, but I'm sure with more time, Sakurai and his team could figure it out.

 

[Deleted member]

Revist the Diddy/Dixie idea?
Probably not going to go well with the fanbase now that Diddy is an established character, and I feel Sakurai would understand this.

Retooling the concept into a Dixie/Kiddy team instead? I can see that happening.

 

[lobotheduck21]

There is only one thing that won't happen in the next Smash Bros game. 3 newcomers for any series! not even Mario

Mario did get three newcomers in one game

-peach
-bowser
-dr. mario