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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

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N3ON

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What about Isaac? Wasn't he pretty highly requested too? Just wondoring.
Yeah Isaac is pretty regularly requested, but it's mostly in the west, like Little Mac and Ridley. His popularity isn't at the same level of polarization that the other two are (he still is requested semi-regularly in Japan, unlike Little Mac and Ridley who have basically close to no requests, but he's not nearly as popular there). But overall SmashChu is correct, newcomers aren't entirely made up of the most popular requests (though the majority of newcomers are), there are also some unexpected choices and obvious omissions with each Smash roster.

As for Isaac though, averaging his popularity in all regions would probably put him somewhere in the middle for likelihood. It shouldn't come as a surprise if he is either included or omitted, he has pretty even odds, IMO.

And for the above Black Shadow conversation, I think that he could be included before Goroh, and he could have an original moveset, but personally I think those are the more unlikely possibilites, though they're still possible.
 

Ember Reaper

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Is there anyway to see what the Japanese want? People have said some of our most wanted aren't the most wanted over there. I would personally like to see some poll results and what they have to say. Can anyone spare a link to such information?
 

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Is there anyway to see what the Japanese want? People have said some of our most wanted aren't the most wanted over there. I would personally like to see some poll results and what they have to say. Can anyone spare a link to such information?
Check out the Directory thread (it's stickied in the General Disscusion section), it has a few Japanese related posts. They're definitely not what you're asking for (as it's people who've skimmed through various Japanese sites like this one), but it's currently all we know about any support, so take it with a slight grain of salt. Don't also forget that popularity isn't everything.
 
D

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The flaw in your analysis is you are assuming only the top guys get in. As far as request go, the most popular characters are: Ridley, Mewtwo, Roy, Dixie, King K Rool, Megaman, and Little Mac (though he is debatable). Outside of them, everyone else is fair game. There are no more Peachs or Bowsers. Besides the few I just listed, there really aren't many must have characters.

As the series has gone on, the Nintendo series the game draws on have branched out. They went more towards the lesser known series. The strength of the characters determines their inclusion more than anything else. Goroh is a strong character, and so is Black Shadow. I'm sure you'll say "Yeah, but they aren't Meta-Knight strong." But, of course, Meta-Knight, and the other characters you mentioned, are already in the game. We're expanding outwards, which includes the under represented series. We have to get characters from somewhere.
There are plenty of other Nintendo 1st Party and 2nd Party series to go to where we don't have to require heavily expanding a somewhat dead series. And more newer franchises keep popping up these days, the list gets longer all the time.
And with series that have plenty of "strong" characters that are already represented in Smash, what really puts F-Zero over them all to get more than one Newcomer? Why shouldn't Kid Icarus, for example, get a couple? Uprising has quite an All-Star cast composed of familar faces and some not-so familiar ones.
Or Mother? We've hardly dug into Mother's large casts of memorable characters.
Wario? With two series, we have quite a bit of potential characters (though most of them from WarioWare, granted).
Metroid? Surely Ridley isn't the only character that could be added.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I want to bring up Claus aka The Masked Man. I was slightly dissapointed to not see him in Brawl considering howw muuch potential he has. He can glide, he wields a beam saber, he has a arm cannon, and he can use PSI powers. You would think he would be a interesting and unique character in Smash Bros. Especially since Sakurai looks at uniqueness and potential when choosing characters.

However, Earthbound/MOTHER is a relatively dead series that hasn`t had a recent game for over 10 years. Yes, we had Lucas in Brawl but, outside of that, Earthbound/MOTHER doesn`t have much representation in SSBB save for music, a few trophies, a stage, and Jeff (which I found surprising). I propose the reason we did not see The Masked Man in SSBB if because of the lack in relevancy in EarthBound/MOTHER. Yeah, I know many argue that relevancy has nothing to do with the selection process. However, in older games that have don`t have a forseen reboot, relevancy is important. I highly doubt we will see a Earthbound/MOTHER character and it`s entirely possible we won`t see a F-Zero character.

I guess what I am trying to say that while Sakurai looks at uniqueness, he also looks at character relevancy. I believe this determines if they have a roster spot or not.

There are many characters that would be interesting. Mona, Midna, Rundas, Leon, Black Knight, etc. However, in their case, their inclusion is heavily based on relevancy within their own franchise and Nintendo.

I believe, in SSB4, we will see a balance between both lesser known franchises such as Golden Sun and inclusion of lesser characters/newer characters from veteran franchises such as Mario, Zelda, Kid Icarus, etc since a lot of the main characters (Peach, Bowser, Zelda, Ganondorf, King Dedede, Ike, Meta Knight, etc) has appeared.

All we are missing is Ridley but he is too big. He will take up at least 8 character roster spots. :troll:
 

N3ON

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I think the reason we didn't see Claus/Masked Man in Brawl was because we already got a new, more important Mother character, not lack of relevancy. Back during Brawl's development Mother was still a relevant series (at least in Japan), and I'm guessing Sakurai just thought that the inclusion of another character from a Japan-only game (though back when he was making the roster in 05/06 he might not have known it would be Japan-only, I'm not sure) in a relatively small series wasn't warranted in the same game that already has a new Mother character. Also, it's not like Mother wasn't represented decently in content other than characters (except trophies) considering it really isn't a very large series, and only had one game released outside Japan.

I think relevancy would be a much bigger issue and point against Masked Man's inclusion now than during Brawl. I still think he's the most likely Mother newcomer, but at this point it's not even relevancy that would keep him out, it's that many other characters out-prioritize him and any other Mother characters. Honestly if he manages to maintain a decent amount of popularity and demand, it's not impossible he could show up in the future of Smash, even if Mother doesn't get any more games. Relevancy is a factor, just IMO not one of the most important ones (though it's more important than uniqueness, as almost all serious Smash contenders have the potential to be unique).
 

JPW

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I heard F-zero could get a comeback soon anyway. I can't find the source but i remember in one of Miyamoto's many interviews they couldn't find a way to make F-zero fresh in the Wii generation. But now that the Wii U brings HD with it something tells me they might find their niche for F-zero.

I want Samurai Goroh in the next Smash Bros too. Over more than Black Shadow. As much as i like Black Shadow i reckon he'll become the assist and Samurai Goroh will step up to the roster.

Also Golden Sun is somewhat popular downunder. ONM had a Readers Top 50 Nintendo games of all time last year and Golden Sun ended up at no.31. That's quite good considering Nintendo's long history of games.
 

SmashChu

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There are plenty of other Nintendo 1st Party and 2nd Party series to go to where we don't have to require heavily expanding a somewhat dead series. And more newer franchises keep popping up these days, the list gets longer all the time.
And with series that have plenty of "strong" characters that are already represented in Smash, what really puts F-Zero over them all to get more than one Newcomer? Why shouldn't Kid Icarus, for example, get a couple? Uprising has quite an All-Star cast composed of familar faces and some not-so familiar ones.
Or Mother? We've hardly dug into Mother's large casts of memorable characters.
Wario? With two series, we have quite a bit of potential characters (though most of them from WarioWare, granted).
Metroid? Surely Ridley isn't the only character that could be added.
I think your suggestions affirm my statement.

Many of the characters you mentioned are very weak. These isn't a strong Metroid character outside of Ridley (one reason why everyone rallies behind him). Kid Icarus has a lot of characters, but most of them are very young and not proven. Mother really lacks anyone memorable, and Wario is a joke in comparison (are we really gonna say Mona is a stronger character than Goroh?) When you stack them together, Black Shadow and Goroh are very strong.

The fact that you can only come up with weak choices makes me believe two F-Zero characters are very likely.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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if the roster isnt expanding as much as it has in the past, i dont think any series will get two new characters. Mario may get one, Zelda may get one, Donkey Kong may get one, Metroid may get one, F-Zero may get one. If the next smash only adds 10 new characters, and 1/5th is F-Zero, which is a currently dead in the water series, it most likely wont happen. Not to mention that there will obviously be newcomers besides the already repped series, such as Shulk, isaac, Little Mac and Takamaru.

Even if they were to add 14 characters, i would see one new F-Zero character as justifiable. Not two if the spots are that valuable, especially when the series hasnt had an entry in 10 years. But that could change. If they get a new game, then i see Goroh or Black Shadow getting in. Still not both
 

Ember Reaper

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Check out the Directory thread (it's stickied in the General Disscusion section), it has a few Japanese related posts. They're definitely not what you're asking for (as it's people who've skimmed through various Japanese sites like this one), but it's currently all we know about any support, so take it with a slight grain of salt. Don't also forget that popularity isn't everything.
Okay thanks! I'm fully aware of that, They have to be All Stars too! :bee:
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I think the reason we didn't see Claus/Masked Man in Brawl was because we already got a new, more important Mother character, not lack of relevancy. Back during Brawl's development Mother was still a relevant series (at least in Japan), and I'm guessing Sakurai just thought that the inclusion of another character from a Japan-only game (though back when he was making the roster in 05/06 he might not have known it would be Japan-only, I'm not sure) in a relatively small series wasn't warranted in the same game that already has a new Mother character. Also, it's not like Mother wasn't represented decently in content other than characters (except trophies) considering it really isn't a very large series, and only had one game released outside Japan.

I think relevancy would be a much bigger issue and point against Masked Man's inclusion now than during Brawl. I still think he's the most likely Mother newcomer, but at this point it's not even relevancy that would keep him out, it's that many other characters out-prioritize him and any other Mother characters. Honestly if he manages to maintain a decent amount of popularity and demand, it's not impossible he could show up in the future of Smash, even if Mother doesn't get any more games. Relevancy is a factor, just IMO not one of the most important ones (though it's more important than uniqueness, as almost all serious Smash contenders have the potential to be unique).
Yeah, that`s true. Reason why i borught up Masked Man because, IMO, he has huge potential to be a unique and diverse character. However, since he is considered a minor character in his franchise and overshadowed by the heroes, he has a lesser chance.

What I was trying to get at is that characters who are included into SSB should always be the more important, main character as opposed to side or minor characters. There are always some exceptions when relevancy comes into play. i confess this will become harder in Smash 4 (and if future installments are considered) since Sakurai has included many of the main characters and important minor characters (Wolf, Falco, etc). What we have left is 2nd party characters, lesser known tiltes, brand spanking new titles, and retro series. I am not saying we are scrapping at the bottom of the barrel yet but it`s drawing closer.
 

Vyzor

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I have this idea for the next Smash Bros. that has to do with the Zelda roster. (Sorry if this has already been said)

Well, due to each Smash Bros. keeping Zelda characters styles up to date with their most recent game, I think that the WiiU/3DS Smash Bros. will have completely different Zelda characters.

I had this idea where, since Skyward Sword didn't have Ganondorf or Sheik, how will they keep them in WiiU? Ganondorf and Sheik both don't have SS styles. Instead, the WiiU Smash will have no Sheik, giving Zelda a new move for her Down B or even a new moveset, and in replacement of Ganondorf would be Demise.

Since that would mean getting rid of Sheik and Ganondorf, to still have them included they could be in the 3DS Smash. That way, since OoT3D came out, they would match and both ways, SS characters for the console and OoT characters for the handheld.

I suppose they could just have characters with different styles in the WiiU version, but, I can't picture Nintendo doing that for some reason.
 

Onyx Oblivian

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I have this idea for the next Smash Bros. that has to do with the Zelda roster. (Sorry if this has already been said)

Well, due to each Smash Bros. keeping Zelda characters styles up to date with their most recent game, I think that the WiiU/3DS Smash Bros. will have completely different Zelda characters.

I had this idea where, since Skyward Sword didn't have Ganondorf or Sheik, how will they keep them in WiiU? Ganondorf and Sheik both don't have SS styles. Instead, the WiiU Smash will have no Sheik, giving Zelda a new move for her Down B or even a new moveset, and in replacement of Ganondorf would be Demise.

Since that would mean getting rid of Sheik and Ganondorf, to still have them included they could be in the 3DS Smash. That way, since OoT3D came out, they would match and both ways, SS characters for the console and OoT characters for the handheld.

I suppose they could just have characters with different styles in the WiiU version, but, I can't picture Nintendo doing that for some reason.
I thought you were heading in one direction, and I was about to agree with you... haha but turns out not. Smash Bros will most certainly not replace Ganondorf and Sheik, with Demise and Impa. Ganondorf is absolutely WAY too important to the series to take out. (That would be like taking out Bowser.) Sheik has already proven herself to be a veteran, making it into two games, so she's very unlikely to be replaced by Impa.

What I THOUGHT you were going to say was that they would have an original art style, instead of being based off of a specific game. :)

Well, that's what I believe is going to happen, and for these reasons: (If it was only link, yes we would probably get the Skyward Sword art-style. But this isn't the case):

Zelda is very young, and even more "damsel in distress" in Skyward Sword than any other game. from her personality to the way she's dressed just radiates "innocent". I personally cannot imagine Skyward Sword-style Zelda fighting, like her former incarnations. :/ Shiek and Ganondorf are both missing from Skyward Sword. I also firmly believe they were not even planned from the beginning, so there most likely is no "concept art" that they can be based off of like Sheik was with Twilght Princess and Brawl.

The same scenario happened in Melee, that last 3D game being Ocarina of Time, and they had little reference to make for higher detailed models. So they based it on the "Spaceworld 2000" demo. I have this feeling that, if they go for a "realism" approach like with Brawl and Melee, and find SS art style to be inconsistent with the overall art style, they'll be either:

A. Basing it off of the Wii U Zelda HD Tech Demo, or get access to the next game's designs.

B. Create "Realism-Style", original art style, Zelda crew.

I firmly believe the latter is going to happen. I do not believe that any Zelda reps will be replaced for not being in Skyward Sword. and that is my opinion. :)

EDIT: Oh and I think Sakurai will know better then to have exclusive characters for the 3DS and Wii U versions. If Ganondorf and Sheik were in the 3DS one, and not in the Wii U one, we would probably have a riot on our hands hahah
 
D

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I think your suggestions affirm my statement.

Many of the characters you mentioned are very weak. These isn't a strong Metroid character outside of Ridley (one reason why everyone rallies behind him). Kid Icarus has a lot of characters, but most of them are very young and not proven. Mother really lacks anyone memorable, and Wario is a joke in comparison (are we really gonna say Mona is a stronger character than Goroh?) When you stack them together, Black Shadow and Goroh are very strong.

The fact that you can only come up with weak choices makes me believe two F-Zero characters are very likely.

No offense, but that really sounds fanboyish towards F-Zero.

As yes, there are Metroid characters that are strong; Dark Samus is a major antagonist of an entire trilogy of games (she is the Metroid Prime, after all). Mother Brain is also a strong character who's only problem is how she would work, given that there's "brain in a jar", "brainasaurus rex", and "android with AI influence".

The issue for Kid Icarus doesn't call for "proven", as this is Sakurai we're talking about. He MADE the characters for Uprising, and thus, HE decides if they've "proven" their worth, not you or I. And also, there are two still that have more than just Uprising in their repitoire; Palutena and Medusa (Hades taking over villain role in Uprising aside).

Mother has plenty of memorable characters yet to be included. Most notably Porky, who can work, if Super Smash Bros. Crusade shows (if that is too awkward, Earthbound Porky would seem more reasonable). Then there's Giygas, who can be incorporated in his Mother 1 form with his Mother 2 form being a Final Smash. Claus/Masked Man is also very notable with being a major character from Mother 3. And even if he looks just like Ness, there's also Ninten.

As for Wario, don't jump to "X from Series A is "stronger" than Y from Series B". No one's saying that. I'm not saying Mona is "stronger" than Goroh. I'm saying that within their series, they are equally as strong. Goroh is essentially the #2 in the F-Zero series with Falcon being #1, and Mona is essentially the #2 in the WarioWare series with Wario being #1 (with Jimmy T. being a very close #3). And then there's the fact that Ashley is the most popular WarioWare character in Japan and has made a bit of a name for herself during Brawl speculation...(So she's the "Black Shadow" of the Wario series, in this case)

But anyways, you kind of overstate how important the characters are.

Outside the anime and games that specifically involve the anime, B. Shadow is just another bad guy racer. There's nothing that puts him above Zoda in F-Zero X, and in F-Zero GX, right away, we see Black Shadow as a mook for the Big Bad of the game, Deathborn, who in turn is a product of the Bigger Bad, The Creators. So in the one game that had a story, he made himself more important than Zoda at least; but in the sense in how Bowser Jr. is to the Mario series. If we specifically go by the anime, then Nightmare is a "strong" character for the Kirby series, or within the series itself, it would make Jody Summer a "strong" character, as she is one of 3 main protagonists of the anime, the other two being Rick Wheeler and Captain Falcon.

Goroh's only importance is that he's been in the series since the beginning like Falcon. But then, that would make Pico and Dr. Stewart equally "strong" within the series. I guess what puts him above those two is that he has a direct rivalry with Falcon (even if it is one-sided). It also helps that he's in Melee's opening as well as having Assist Trophy status in Brawl.

And as others have stated, Sakurai doesn't seem like he's going to add that many characters this time around, at which point, having TWO F-Zero Newcomers causes a drop in favorability towards another series even getting one character, be it veteran or newcoming series.

So like I said, it's going to be one or the other if F-Zero does get a new character. Could be B. Shadow for his anime popularity, could be Goroh for what Sakurai has done with him thus far. My money's more on Goroh.
 

JPW

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I think with Zelda franchise they might end up giving us a HD representation.

That being said i would still like to see a SS Link as a shade. I actually like his Skyward Sword Look. Never has emotion been caught so good in a Zelda game. It is that art style that helps it immensely.
 

Vyzor

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I thought you were heading in one direction, and I was about to agree with you... haha but turns out not. Smash Bros will most certainly not replace Ganondorf and Sheik, with Demise and Impa. Ganondorf is absolutely WAY too important to the series to take out. (That would be like taking out Bowser.) Sheik has already proven herself to be a veteran, making it into two games, so she's very unlikely to be replaced by Impa.

What I THOUGHT you were going to say was that they would have an original art style, instead of being based off of a specific game. :)

Well, that's what I believe is going to happen, and for these reasons: (If it was only link, yes we would probably get the Skyward Sword art-style. But this isn't the case):

Zelda is very young, and even more "damsel in distress" in Skyward Sword than any other game. from her personality to the way she's dressed just radiates "innocent". I personally cannot imagine Skyward Sword-style Zelda fighting, like her former incarnations. :/ Shiek and Ganondorf are both missing from Skyward Sword. I also firmly believe they were not even planned from the beginning, so there most likely is no "concept art" that they can be based off of like Sheik was with Twilght Princess and Brawl.

The same scenario happened in Melee, that last 3D game being Ocarina of Time, and they had little reference to make for higher detailed models. So they based it on the "Spaceworld 2000" demo. I have this feeling that, if they go for a "realism" approach like with Brawl and Melee, and find SS art style to be inconsistent with the overall art style, they'll be either:

A. Basing it off of the Wii U Zelda HD Tech Demo, or get access to the next game's designs.

B. Create "Realism-Style", original art style, Zelda crew.

I firmly believe the latter is going to happen. I do not believe that any Zelda reps will be replaced for not being in Skyward Sword. and that is my opinion. :)

EDIT: Oh and I think Sakurai will know better then to have exclusive characters for the 3DS and Wii U versions. If Ganondorf and Sheik were in the 3DS one, and not in the Wii U one, we would probably have a riot on our hands hahah
Ahh, very good idea my friend! :D Yea, that would be a much better idea than mine. I agree that, I would not like them to replace Sheik and Ganondorf, it was just an idea I thought they could possibly do. I don't really want them to do it either! xD It would be nice to see Sora/Nintendo create a completely original art style! Something similar to the Wii U tech demo would be nice eh? I was hoping for Zelda to look like Skyward Sword Zelda though :3 You mention that you can't picture SS Zelda fighting but yet Peach is still does xD

DAAAW just look at her

 

SmasherMaster

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First off, Peach actually does fight and is not a damsel in distress. Super Princess Peach and Super Mario Bros. 2 for example.
 

Weedy Spyze

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All of the recent Mother talk has inspired me to register for the site just to throw in my two cents.

Mother has plenty of memorable characters yet to be included. Most notably Porky, who can work, if Super Smash Bros. Crusade shows (if that is too awkward, Earthbound Porky would seem more reasonable). Then there's Giygas, who can be incorporated in his Mother 1 form with his Mother 2 form being a Final Smash. Claus/Masked Man is also very notable with being a major character from Mother 3. And even if he looks just like Ness, there's also Ninten.
Why is it that whenever talk happens for a third Mother representative, Porky's name is almost always the first to be thrown around? From what I understand, the most common excuses are: One, he's a villain, except villainy means just as much as being female does when it comes to new Smash characters (aka not very much). Second, he would represent both EarthBound and Mother 3, which means nothing. Ness and Lucas already represent their respective games, it's not like Porky would bring anything new to the table when it comes to that. Thirdly, he was a boss in brawl. Yeah, a boss. He was a boss for a reason. That giant spider mech wouldn't work as a playable character in Smash, according to Sakurai's apparent requirements at least. It doesn't matter what fangames try to tell you. Why anyone would want to play as a mech instead of an actual character anyway is beyond me. Also, Porky was never more than a boss in any Mother game. This isn't Mario or Zelda, where there's only one or two main playable characters in each game. Mother 1 has five playable characters, EarthBound has four (including Ness), and Mother 3 has seven (including Lucas). Porky isn't one of those sixteen, he's never been playable at all. The only time he was in your party (at the beginning of EarthBound), he did absolutely nothing to help you. He was a joke party member, basically. But anyway, the final reason I can think of is just general ignorance to the Mother series and the fantastic cast of characters it actually holds, because a lot of American fans only know of the series through Smash and have never played the actual games. So, Porky (and Jeff) are really the only other characters they know besides Ness and Lucas, and maybe Claus due to Lucas' second outfit. Which is a shame, the series really is a gem and deserving of its place in Smash Bros.

Yeah, that`s true. Reason why i borught up Masked Man because, IMO, he has huge potential to be a unique and diverse character. However, since he is considered a minor character in his franchise and overshadowed by the heroes, he has a lesser chance.

What I was trying to get at is that characters who are included into SSB should always be the more important, main character as opposed to side or minor characters. There are always some exceptions when relevancy comes into play. i confess this will become harder in Smash 4 (and if future installments are considered) since Sakurai has included many of the main characters and important minor characters (Wolf, Falco, etc). What we have left is 2nd party characters, lesser known tiltes, brand spanking new titles, and retro series. I am not saying we are scrapping at the bottom of the barrel yet but it`s drawing closer.
I don't know how sensitive people are about Mother 3 spoilers nowadays, but I'll tag this just in case.

Umm no, in absolutely no way is Claus a 'minor' character in the franchise. He's probably the most important character in the franchise after the three main characters (and without a doubt the most popular), as his family's tragedy and his disappearance was the catalyst for the entire storyline in Mother 3. He was way more important to the plot than even Porky was. He was the main adversary during the Seven Needles chapter (which was the lion's share of the meat in the game), and was even the final boss. Porky didn't even appear until the very end of the game. Not to mention Porky's plans wouldn't have been squat without his brainwashed robot. He couldn't pull the needles himself.

Anyway, I completely agree that Masked Man would be a great and unique character addition. In fact, he's my most wanted newcomer, and I would be ecstatic if he made it into the game. First of all, he can use PSI, the Mother's series main draw, unlike Porky. The potential third Mother character is gonna be a PSI user, I mean come on now. He also has wings, an arm cannon, and a thunder sword. Exactly what's not to love about this? Yet people still want to play as a mech instead. A freaking mech.

As for Ness and Lucas, they're not going anywhere. There is absolutely no reason to remove either of them, and I always have to roll my eyes irl whenever someone tries to cut one of them (usually Lucas) from Smash 4's potential roster. People are too cut-happy on this site, I swear. Luckily I don't think Sakurai and the other members of the development team are. But if one of them were to be removed I'd bet it would be Ness instead of Lucas. Mother 3 got plenty of love and showcasing in Brawl, while EarthBound's was less in comparison. Not to mention Lucas was the starter while Ness was demoted back to unlockable. So yeah Ness may be one of the "original 12," and that may or may not make him a sacred character. But when it comes to between him and Lucas, Luke seems to be the more sacred choice when it comes to Sakurai, at least from my viewpoint. He was intended to replace Ness already in Melee, after all. A lot of people also seem to be under the idea that since Lucas is a Japan-only character, he wouldn't be missed if he was cut. Maybe he wouldn't be missed by you, but Smash doesn't revolve around you. I personally would be livid if he was cut, since he's one of my favorite video game characters ever. My four-year-old nephew who loves both Ness and Lucas and almost always chooses them first when he plays Brawl would probably be disappointed as well.

Anyway, that's my long and probably not very interesting take on the Mother series in Smash. On a final note I hope they don't go with Zelda's Skyward Sword look in the new game, she looks awful. She looks so much better as a brunette.
 

Vyzor

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First off, Peach actually does fight and is not a damsel in distress. Super Princess Peach and Super Mario Bros. 2 for example.
Peach...is not a damsel in distress? Umm just wondering, ever played a Mario game? The plot of each main series Mario game, is that Peach gets fricking captured.

Oh ok, So take out Zelda then by your logic. Zelda's never fought so, then I guess she should have never been put into Smash Bros. Sheik didn't fight anyone in OoT so she's gone. Why not get rid of Captain Falcon too? Ever played an F-Zero game where he fought? I sure haven't. Fox,Falco and Wolf should have never been in Smash Bros., Fox never physically fought anyone until SFA and Falco didn't even fight in that an Wolf wasn't even in it. R.O.B's gone, he's a toy. Mr.G&W is gone too.
 

SmasherMaster

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Peach...is not a damsel in distress? Umm just wondering, ever played a Mario game? The plot of each main series Mario game, is that Peach gets fricking captured.

Oh ok, So take out Zelda then by your logic. Zelda's never fought so, then I guess she should have never been put into Smash Bros. Sheik didn't fight anyone in OoT so she's gone. Why not get rid of Captain Falcon too? Ever played an F-Zero game where he fought? I sure haven't. Fox,Falco and Wolf should have never been in Smash Bros., Fox never physically fought anyone until SFA and Falco didn't even fight in that an Wolf wasn't even in it. R.O.B's gone, he's a toy. Mr.G&W is gone too.
I meant that Peach isn't just a damsel in distress, she has been a playable heroine like Samus and Dixie Kong. Now, I never said that if they never fight, they shouldn't be in. Just because a character doesn't fight, doesn't mean they shouldn't be in Smash Bros.
 
D

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Why is it that whenever talk happens for a third Mother representative, Porky's name is almost always the first to be thrown around? From what I understand, the most common excuses are: One, he's a villain, except villainy means just as much as being female does when it comes to new Smash characters (aka not very much). Second, he would represent both EarthBound and Mother 3, which means nothing. Ness and Lucas already represent their respective games, it's not like Porky would bring anything new to the table when it comes to that. Thirdly, he was a boss in brawl. Yeah, a boss. He was a boss for a reason. That giant spider mech wouldn't work as a playable character in Smash, according to Sakurai's apparent requirements at least. It doesn't matter what fangames try to tell you. Why anyone would want to play as a mech instead of an actual character anyway is beyond me. Also, Porky was never more than a boss in any Mother game. This isn't Mario or Zelda, where there's only one or two main playable characters in each game. Mother 1 has five playable characters, EarthBound has four (including Ness), and Mother 3 has seven (including Lucas). Porky isn't one of those sixteen, he's never been playable at all. The only time he was in your party (at the beginning of EarthBound), he did absolutely nothing to help you. He was a joke party member, basically. But anyway, the final reason I can think of is just general ignorance to the Mother series and the fantastic cast of characters it actually holds, because a lot of American fans only know of the series through Smash and have never played the actual games. So, Porky (and Jeff) are really the only other characters they know besides Ness and Lucas, and maybe Claus due to Lucas' second outfit. Which is a shame, the series really is a gem and deserving of its place in Smash Bros.

Anyway, I completely agree that Masked Man would be a great and unique character addition. In fact, he's my most wanted newcomer, and I would be ecstatic if he made it into the game. First of all, he can use PSI, the Mother's series main draw, unlike Porky. The potential third Mother character is gonna be a PSI user, I mean come on now. He also has wings, an arm cannon, and a thunder sword. Exactly what's not to love about this? Yet people still want to play as a mech instead. A freaking mech.
Your arguments are sad.
For one, what does it matter if he's a mech or not? There is no rule that characters can't be in mechs, and I think it should be obvious at this point that Porky's bed mech used in Brawl is far larger than it normally is within the series. (and again, I pointed out that Earthbound Porky and his spider mech could be more feasible.)

Two, if only playable characters from series were allowed, why the bloody Hell do we have Zelda/Sheik or Ganondorf? There hasn't been a single Zelda game where you could legitimately play as them outside the CD-i games for Zelda, and essentially playing as Zelda possessing a Phantom in Spirit Tracks.

Three, by your logic, people shouldn't want Ridley either. I mean, he was a BOSS. TWICE. That, and he's HUGE. There's no possible way he can be playable. He's also never been playable in the Metroid series, while we have plenty of Hunters available from that one game for the DS. Also, if Metroid gets another character, they are going to be similar to Samus. No exceptions.

Four, Porky is more important than Random Party Member #6 from one game, as he plays an important role in two games, being the main antagonist in one.

Five, your list of "potential" characters gets diminished by the arbitrary rule that all Mother characters MUST be PSI users. I mean, come on now.
So your list goes down to the following:
Ninten (Looks too much like Ness to even be considered.)
Ana (Too minor compared to Ninten.)
Paula (Ness already uses moves she does.)
Poo (Ness already uses moves he does.)
Kumatora (Lucas already uses moves she does.)
Giygas (Inelligible for he is not a party member and was nothing more than a boss.)
Claus (Inelligible for he is not a party member and was nothing more than a boss.)
Guess Mother has no one available.

Six, way to make generalizations. You are aware that Mother 3 is actually pretty well known in America despite not being released there, right? And seeing as Earthbound WAS released in America as well, I'm pretty sure people know Porky Minch from his home series as well as Brawl.
And shocking as this may be to you, but when people want Porky, it's probably because they want him for *gasp* being Porky. Not for some arbitrary "he's a villain" rule.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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^Well said Golden. A lot of people think too much about why a series deserves another rep, and honestly, a game like Super Smash Bros is all about the All Stars of the company. So with this in mind, compare Mother to Mario. Mario is the flagship series of the company, so its a no brainer it will have a lot of reps in the game. If that is too much of a difference, then compare it to Star Fox. Star Fox has been unseen besides the 3ds remake, but it is much more widely known/played among gamers. Mother/Earthbound has three games in the series, which, compared to many other series in Smash Bros, is a rather small amount.

I see no argument to cater to Earthbound and add more characters to a series that hasnt done much for a few years now. You could say the same for Star Fox, but Star Fox is much better known, so it is reasonable in a way. Adding new series to Smash? sure, but adding more characters to Mother just for the sake of it? Absolutely not, especially if the roster additions will be smaller this time around

EDIT: and when you say Smash doesn't revolve around us, think of it this way: because this game is catered to the fans, YES it does revolve around the fans. And looking at it reversed, because you want Masked Man included, it doesnt revolve around YOU either. So that is another point that should be ignored.
 

SmashChu

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No offense, but that really sounds fanboyish towards F-Zero.

As yes, there are Metroid characters that are strong; Dark Samus is a major antagonist of an entire trilogy of games (she is the Metroid Prime, after all). Mother Brain is also a strong character who's only problem is how she would work, given that there's "brain in a jar", "brainasaurus rex", and "android with AI influence".

The issue for Kid Icarus doesn't call for "proven", as this is Sakurai we're talking about. He MADE the characters for Uprising, and thus, HE decides if they've "proven" their worth, not you or I. And also, there are two still that have more than just Uprising in their repitoire; Palutena and Medusa (Hades taking over villain role in Uprising aside).

Mother has plenty of memorable characters yet to be included. Most notably Porky, who can work, if Super Smash Bros. Crusade shows (if that is too awkward, Earthbound Porky would seem more reasonable). Then there's Giygas, who can be incorporated in his Mother 1 form with his Mother 2 form being a Final Smash. Claus/Masked Man is also very notable with being a major character from Mother 3. And even if he looks just like Ness, there's also Ninten.

As for Wario, don't jump to "X from Series A is "stronger" than Y from Series B". No one's saying that. I'm not saying Mona is "stronger" than Goroh. I'm saying that within their series, they are equally as strong. Goroh is essentially the #2 in the F-Zero series with Falcon being #1, and Mona is essentially the #2 in the WarioWare series with Wario being #1 (with Jimmy T. being a very close #3). And then there's the fact that Ashley is the most popular WarioWare character in Japan and has made a bit of a name for herself during Brawl speculation...(So she's the "Black Shadow" of the Wario series, in this case)

But anyways, you kind of overstate how important the characters are.

Outside the anime and games that specifically involve the anime, B. Shadow is just another bad guy racer. There's nothing that puts him above Zoda in F-Zero X, and in F-Zero GX, right away, we see Black Shadow as a mook for the Big Bad of the game, Deathborn, who in turn is a product of the Bigger Bad, The Creators. So in the one game that had a story, he made himself more important than Zoda at least; but in the sense in how Bowser Jr. is to the Mario series. If we specifically go by the anime, then Nightmare is a "strong" character for the Kirby series, or within the series itself, it would make Jody Summer a "strong" character, as she is one of 3 main protagonists of the anime, the other two being Rick Wheeler and Captain Falcon.

Goroh's only importance is that he's been in the series since the beginning like Falcon. But then, that would make Pico and Dr. Stewart equally "strong" within the series. I guess what puts him above those two is that he has a direct rivalry with Falcon (even if it is one-sided). It also helps that he's in Melee's opening as well as having Assist Trophy status in Brawl.

And as others have stated, Sakurai doesn't seem like he's going to add that many characters this time around, at which point, having TWO F-Zero Newcomers causes a drop in favorability towards another series even getting one character, be it veteran or newcoming series.

So like I said, it's going to be one or the other if F-Zero does get a new character. Could be B. Shadow for his anime popularity, could be Goroh for what Sakurai has done with him thus far. My money's more on Goroh.
The problem here is you don't understand how character strength works (your Wario paragraph is very telling).

Character strength is not just "Do people like them," but "Will people like them." Will the character inclusion make people want to play the game? This is not just random qualities, but how they interrelate. And no, it's not a matter of who comes next (as you wrongly believe). It all hinges on whether the character will get people excited. It's like Marth and Roy. People wanted to learn more about them. People were excited by them.

It would make more sense to defend the characters than to say why your alternatives are wrong. Goroh is likely because even people who know little about the series can recognize Goroh. It's why he's an assist trophy. He has a certain presence. He looks and acts tough. And he's been around for a while. To say he's just Falcon's rival is a poor assessment and tries to pin him as a satellite character. He's not. He is a stand along character and very active. He's pretty recognizable in his own universe.

I think the poorest part of your post have been trying to say that it doesn't matter that people like Black Shadow and want him in because "they only like his voice." Reasons don't matter; people like Black Shadow. This should be a testament to his character. The reason he's not just another bad guy. He IS the bad guy. He is the main villain in the anime and was only under Deathborn in GX. Plus, he's pretty sadistic and crazy. He has enough to stand out.

Now that that's out of the way, let's look at your choices.

Dark Samus-Dark Samus is Samus, but dark. She was not the major villain until the last game (where so was everyone else). She is more linked to the Phazon threat than anything else. She's importaint in two games in the Prime series, but so was Ridley, and in every other game. Goroh and Black Shadow are major players in all their games and are both more recognizable. A character named "Dark Samus," would not excite people. She has little to bring to differentiate herself.
Kid Icarus-Sakurai doesn't add characters because he made them. heck, he avoided it for years. If anything, it weakens their chances. I will say Palutena and Medusa are long standing characters and have a fair shot, but the rest? They are more there to fill in gaps. It's not to say they aren't important, but we're comparing them to characters who are recognizable and have been around the block
Mother-Mother is a small series and has two characters. Porky is important in his own universe, but he doesn't offer anything that will excite people. He's a fat kid in a spider mech and that's about it. He makes a great boss because of his awkward size and being an important villain, but he doesn't get people excited. Maybe Mother fans, but not everyone else.
Wario-Just because "X and Y are bot the next character in line from their own respective series does not make them the same. No one even mentions Warioware characters, so I doubt people are going to be excited for seeing them. As a note, Ashley is a niche character even in Japan.

So that's about it.
 

Oasis_S

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SmashChu.

You just don't understand Porky's appeal. Not that I think he has a great chance, but he would definitely be a good choice. The best Mother has to offer.
 
D

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The fact you claim Black Shadow is a major player in all of the games he's in and that he's "THE" bad guy shows how little you really know.
Again, in X, there is literally nothing that puts him above someone like Zoda; both are bad guys who have history with Falcon taking down their goons, and they want revenge.
GX, while appearing in the story the most, he's the Zant of the game, except we know right away that he's not the Big Bad instead of later on. Deathborn, despite being a one-timer, has shown to be "THE" bad guy.
At this point, I concede this argument, as it will get us nowhere with blatant F-Zero fanboyism.

EDIT: Especially since you apparently know little about Dark Samus as well. Again, she is THE Metroid Prime. So she is important in all three of the trilogy games.
That, and she fights much differently from Samus, which even the most basic of research would tell you.
That, and apparently a guy in a spider mech excites people less and has less to offer than a shadowy guy in a bull-themed outfit who has to rely on outside media (the anime) for a moveset, which while different from Falcon, is still nothing too special. (and is mainly talked about as a way to keep Ganondorf's moveset while he gets a new one)
 

SmashChu

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A statement from a Wiki that anyone can edit means nothing.
So yeah, try harder.
At least I have actual evidence from the games that you have yet to prove wrong.

Or does Black Shadow have some involvement with F-Zero X that I am not aware of?
Or was him being just a mook for Deathborn just a facade by Black Shadow somehow?

EDIT: Hell, the article has most of it's information from the anime, as if it was the same exact canon from the games!
 

SmashChu

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A statement from a Wiki that anyone can edit means nothing.
So yeah, try harder.
At least I have actual evidence from the games that you have yet to prove wrong.

Or does Black Shadow have some involvement with F-Zero X that I am not aware of?
Or was him being just a mook for Deathborn just a facade by Black Shadow somehow?

EDIT: Hell, the article has most of it's information from the anime, as if it was the same exact canon from the games!
The problem with this argument is that you move the goal post. You don't have an argument, just that everything I bring now magically doesn't apply.

Black Shadow is popular in Japan, more so than a lot of choices. "Nuh uh, that doesn't count because people only like the character voice." Black Shadow is the villain of the series. "Nuh uh, that doesn't count because that wiki is invalid and only I am right." We can go one and one, but anything I bring up will be ignored or shoved aside so we can keep playing musical chairs.

Let's look at the facts
-Goroh and Black Shadow have been in more games than many of your suggestions
-Black Shadow is more popular than any of the characters you mentioned (maybe not Palutena, but that's stretching it)
-Gohor (and Black Shadow too) is more recognizable than the choices you brought up
-F-Zero is a bigger series than any of the ones you've brought up. Only Wario could compare.
-There is less discussion on the characters you brought up

Heck, go look at Smashboard's poll. Goroh beats every character you brought up and only Dark Samus beat Black Shadow (not counting Palutena, who beats both, but is anyone surprised?). But that doesn't count because it's Smashboards or something.
 
D

Deleted member

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I'm not ignoring what you say because of what you say;
I'm only discounting what is wrong. You have yet to prove that Black Shadow is the main villain on the series, and only use the beginning of a user written article that combines the anime canon with the main canon to support your case, while I have the main series itself as my support.
As I said before, X gives nothing to Black Shadow that doesn't put him above Zoda. Both are evil racers of malicious intent, both have some background history with Falcon taking down their goons, and both want revenge. GX has Black Shadow begging at Deathborn's heels in the very first cutscene, and Deathborn even KILLS him later for his failures. How that translates to "Black Shadow is the main villain" is beyond me.

You want me to take your argument seriously? Actually bring in real evidence from the games themselves or even statements from Nintendo.

I also love how you choose to ignore that the main reason why people want him is because they want him to be a method for Ganondorf to get a new moveset while his old moveset stays by Black Shadow inheriting it. In other words, they want a clone. They don't want him for him; they want him to end the Captain Ganon issue. That's not real support.

And what seals the idea that your argument comes off as fanboyish is that you use subjective points for why the two characters are "more likely" or "better" than the other characters, when I'm not arguing for why the characters are better or more likely. I'm arguing for how those characters are "strong" for their respective series and why they shouldn't be overlooked.
I mean, you can't really argue who is more popular or recogniseable between, say, Black Shadow or Jimmy T., and likewise, neither can I. It's all a manner of subjectivity unless we have numerous sources, which neither of us have.
You can't use the "bigger series" argument, as it doesn't mean anything in the long run; StarFox is a lesser series than Metroid (so is F-Zero. You did not just say F-Zero was bigger than Metroid...) and yet StarFox has more characters.
As for "discussion", do you really think Sakurai gives a rat's @$$ whether people on a forum are discussing more about Black Shadowdorf or about Porkio (Porky as some wierd Wario clone)? Until Sakurai throws another poll himself, we cannot determine who is likely based on discussion. Need I remind you of Geno?
 

Spydr Enzo

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Black Shadow is not THE main villain of the series, but he is definitely a highly important one. Regardless of the fact that he works under Deathborn, Black Shadow is the villain that does most of his dirty work, making him more recognizable as the "main villain." I think SmashChu's interpretation of "main villain" is the villain that appears the most and causes the most trouble in the game regardless of hierarchy, while Golden's interpretation is the "top dog" villain.

Either way is fine... but honestly, does it matter? Black Shadow barely has a chance (if he even has a chance), and that's only because he has to compete with Samurai Goroh, who is far more qualified for a playable spot than Black Shadow is. But will F-Zero actually get a second playable character? (I'm quite positive they won't get two... that's overkill for a series like F-Zero)

I say Samaurai Goroh at least has a pretty good chance. Sure, the series is dead, but characters like BS and Goroh remain very popular characters among the Smash community. Furthermore, Sakurai did make that comment about bringing back old characters (you could interpret this as only retros, any older character, or old Smash cuts... I prefer all), so I doubt that the series being "dead" is much of a problem.
 
D

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I agree with you there, Syder about Goroh.
It also helps that he was in Melee's opening and was an Assist Trophy, so it kind of shows Sakurai sees Goroh as the next F-Zero character if there is one.
 

Spydr Enzo

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I agree with you there, Syder about Goroh.
It also helps that he was in Melee's opening and was an Assist Trophy, so it kind of shows Sakurai sees Goroh as the next F-Zero character if there is one.
Exactly why he's the obvious choice. Sakurai's obvious interest in him, his exposure to the Smash World, and his noticeable popularity despite the inactive state of his series is what causes me and many others to believe that his chances of appearing as a playable are quite high. He just needs to compete with more important characters.
 

N3ON

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At this point I'd take a fight about F-Zero characters over a fight about Mario or Pokemon characters. :rolleyes::laugh:
 

JPW

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I would actually laugh if they put both in.

I mean Kirby went from 1 in 64 and Melee to 3 in Brawl. But then again Kirby is Sakurai's Baby.
 

N3ON

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I would actually laugh if they put both in.

I mean Kirby went from 1 in 64 and Melee to 3 in Brawl. But then again Kirby is Sakurai's Baby.
I think there are many reasons Kirby warranted 2 reps in one game that F-Zero doesn't. First, even after Meta-Knight was included, Dedede was still among the top requested characters, which neither Black Shadow nor Goroh can claim to be, even if they do have moderate popularity. Also, Kirby is a much more major series than F-Zero, (even without considering the series relationship to Sakurai). Plus Dedede was to be added twice previously and didn't make the cut either time, unlike any F-Zero character (that we know about).

Plus more Kirby characters have been requested since pre-Melee, with more F-Zero characters not being seriously requested until more recently.
 
D

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WOW! A FIGHT ABOUT F-ZERO CHARACTERS!

I never thought i see this.
Toise's dream of a F-zero debate has come true.

Won't lie, I'm surprised this is even happening.

@N3ON: I heard from ChronoBound that Samurai Goroh has been regularly requested since pre-Melee.
 
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