Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[ChronoBound]

Its strange how my feelings regarding Dr. Mario and Pichu have changed over the years. Back when Melee was released and for nearly all of pre-Brawl, I viewed those two (and Young Link) as a waste of space and poor character choices (since they were alteregos of already existing characters). However, since Brawl's release, and learning that Sakurai even had planned Dr. Mario to return, my heart has changed on them. I am actually a bit nostalgic towards them now to be honest. There was a certain charm in them that I just only in recent years started to see. My personal hope for Smash 4 since the beginning was that everyone from Brawl plus Mewtwo and Roy come back for Smash 4, however, lately I would even find the return of Dr. Mario and Pichu a pleasant surprise. However, I think those two are unlikely for Smash 4 seeing as there is little demand amongst the Smash Bros. fanbase for their return (though Pichu is certainly still a very popular Pokemon, and is very likely still the most popular Pokemon of second-generation).

 

[lobotheduck21]

Anyways, if k. rool gets in, then dixie and diddy become a tag team character, do you think we could could get a 3rd DK character (making up 4 slots)

Because I'm tired of this argument (especially since the guy hasn't actually said why lucario isn't iconic) and I really want some opinions on this I'm reposting this

I find it funny how chrono types this stuff and we just ignore it (not that they're bad posts or bad subjects)

 

[Deleted member]

This is also how my views on Pichu came.
The fact Pichu was a joke character would turn me off about it initially. But after I started to USE him as a joke character many years later (after Brawl came out)...the charm was just there. It was so fun to troll people with "THE CUTEST THING EVER" every time I get the Bunny Hood and taunting.

While I don't really expect Pichu to return, I'd be fine to have Pichu to return as an alternate selection to Pichu not unlike my idea for Dr. Mario to be an alternate selection to Mario. (And perhaps others like turning Toon Link into one for the purists that hate having two of the same character on the CSS, Dark Pit, maybe even someone like Metal Sonic, IDK.)

 

[Ember Reaper]

I don't know if its for anyone else, but the more I play Melee the more I miss Mewtwo and Roy.

Yes. That'd be the only the reason I still go back to melee occasionally.

I particularly liked the first movie of Pokemon.

Pikachu is iconic, Charizard and Mewtwo could be considered iconic too, even Lucario in fourth gen, Victini and Zoroark for fifth, mudkipz for third gen if were talking all of them. No one jumps out at me for second gen though. But mainly Pikachu.

 

[Opossum]

Obviously Qwilfish is the Iconic Gen 2 Pokemon.


Ah, if only...my third favorite Pokemon needs more love...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

No one jumps out at me for second gen though. But mainly Pikachu.

One of the reasons for that, in my opinion at least, was that Gen 2 was almost just an expansion of Gen 1 in terms of Pokemon.

 

[MagnesD3]

pikachu is the ultimate icon, jigglypuff is japans icon, mewtwo is the ultimate boss pokemon icon, and red is the iconic trainer. Pichu just was a random gen 2 rep and lucario a random gen 4 rep. Honestly none of the pokemon are iconic past gen 1 (even though gen 2 is my fav), and yes ive played all the pokemon games. Pokemon is a series of generics since technically besides legendaries there are many of all of the pokemon so i consider it unfair to compare a pikachu to a koopa. Also luigi is marios brother and is extremely popular so thats why he is important. Bandanna dee is just the 4th player icon, a mere tac on. Also on yoshi being a generic, Im pretty sure their is a specific yoshi that had a bond with baby mario so thats why i can accept him and the fact he is playable in many games as well as being iconic. My phone died thats why im splurging with text..

 

[lobotheduck21]

Heck with all the new eeveelution and with

Spoiler

espeon and umbreon being important characters in pmd:3ds

bet we can see some eevee requests coming
@magnes still haven't proved why lucario isn't iconic (right now he
is one of the most important Pokemon)

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Like anything in the Pokemon anime, the movies are only something you'll see as "good" as a kid unless you have nostalgia glasses on you. The Celebi movie (4th one I believe) was the last one I remember enjoying during its debut, aside from the Mewtwo Returns home video.

And yeah Golden, Pichu was a guilty pleasure when screwing around with him like that in Melee, lol. Doesn't mean I'd want characters like him back though, but can see why others would like to see them return.

 

[FlareHabanero]

To me, I always viewed Dr. Mario and Pichu as the lamest excuses for characters ever. To this day I still hate those two for being such wastes of space, and I do not see any form of charm to them in any shape or form.

 

[MagnesD3]

Like anything in the Pokemon anime, the movies are only something you'll see as "good" as a kid unless you have nostalgia glasses on you. The Celebi movie (4th one I believe) was the last one I remember enjoying during its debut, aside from the Mewtwo Returns home video.

And yeah Golden, Pichu was a guilty pleasure when screwing around with him like that in Melee, lol. Doesn't mean I'd want characters like him back though, but can see why others would like to see them return.

Honestly its been forever since ive seen a poke movie, but the show seasons gen 1 and 2 are good. Also i def dont want the clones back, nobody wants attack of the clones...

 

[Second Power]

I actually saw this post a little while ago, and pondered linking to it here. Basically, this is sort of a list on how much Pokemon has to offer characterwise. There's so much potential, currently totally untapped. Just give it a quick scan if you have time.

The types and their roles.

Oh, and since I'm already typing...

pikachu is the ultimate icon, jigglypuff is japans icon, mewtwo is the ultimate boss pokemon icon, and red is the iconic trainer. Pichu just was a random gen 2 rep and lucario a random gen 4 rep. Honestly none of the pokemon are iconic past gen 1 (even though gen 2 is my fav), and yes ive played all the pokemon games. Pokemon is a series of generics since technically besides legendaries there are many of all of the pokemon so i consider it unfair to compare a pikachu to a koopa. Also luigi is marios brother and is extremely popular so thats why he is important. Bandanna dee is just the 4th player icon, a mere tac on. Also on yoshi being a generic, Im pretty sure their is a specific yoshi that had a bond with baby mario so thats why i can accept him and the fact he is playable in many games as well as being iconic. My phone died thats why im splurging with text..

Ah. Nothing but opinion. Bandanna Dee, like Yoshi, has his own unique flavor. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's awful. "Luigi is extremely popular so that's why he's important." Lucario.

 

[Opossum]

And really, Magnes, why would it matter whether or not Lucario is iconic if he's a popular Pokemon and a popular Smash character? He has his merits, but it seems that you are letting your view of iconicism get in the way of seeing that.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

pikachu is the ultimate icon, jigglypuff is japans icon, mewtwo is the ultimate boss pokemon icon, and red is the iconic trainer. Pichu just was a random gen 2 rep and lucario a random gen 4 rep. Honestly none of the pokemon are iconic past gen 1 (even though gen 2 is my fav), and yes ive played all the pokemon games. Pokemon is a series of generics since technically besides legendaries there are many of all of the pokemon so i consider it unfair to compare a pikachu to a koopa.

Wow. If there was any doubt of you being a Gen 1 fanboy, it just flew right out the window.

Also luigi is marios brother and is extremely popular so thats why he is important.

But I mean, he's mostly just the player 2 icon. A mere tac on.

Also on yoshi being a generic, Im pretty sure their is a specific yoshi that had a bond with baby mario so thats why i can accept him and the fact he is playable in many games as well as being iconic.

There's also evidence to suggest that there's a specific Toad(hence why SMwiki gives him a seperate page), and of course Bandana Dee is a specific Waddle Dee, so basically the whole generic argument is basically moot.

 

[MagnesD3]

And really, Magnes, why would it matter whether or not Lucario is iconic if he's a popular Pokemon and a popular Smash character? He has his merits, but it seems that you are letting your view of iconicism get in the way of seeing that.

I dont think lucario is more popular than most of gen 1 pokemon tbh, he is kinda cool but honestly i dont see the appeal, also i feel he is more of popular smash character than anything, i feel his popularity mostly comes from him making it into smash (wish he had never gotten in...).

 

[Opossum]

I dont think lucario is more popular than most of gen 1 pokemon tbh, he is kinda cool but honestly i dont see the appeal, also i feel he is more of popular smash character than anything, i feel his popularity mostly comes from him making it into smash (wish he had never gotten in...).

Umm...in many polls, Lucario is among the Top as far as Favorite Pokemon. And actually, he was a popular choice for Brawl due to his popularity in Pokemon. So...yeah. He didn't gain his popularity from Smash...he's just awesome in game and had a popular movie.

 

[MagnesD3]

Wow. If there was any doubt of you being a Gen 1 fanboy, it just flew right out the window.



But I mean, he's mostly just the player 2 icon. A mere tac on.



There's also evidence to suggest that there's a specific Toad(hence why SMwiki gives him a seperate page), and of course Bandana Dee is a specific Waddle Dee, so basically the whole generic argument is basically moot.

You know i used to think there was a " toad" but the only real evidence i have is maybe smb2 and that technically wasnt supposed to be a mario game, and really what in the world would toad do, i mean toad is considered pretty generic if princess peach holds one up as a shield. I also feel d3 spamming his underling waddle dees show how generic they are as well. Its not that i hate the minor characters i just dont think those characters are good reps for the series on a stage of iconic figures.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I dont think lucario is more popular than most of gen 1 pokemon tbh, he is kinda cool but honestly i dont see the appeal, also i feel he is more of popular smash character than anything, i feel his popularity mostly comes from him making it into smash (wish he had never gotten in...).

He's my personal favorite Pokemon, and was one of the few characters I wanted for Brawl and actually got in (Diddy,Sonic,Meta Knight). It comes form him being an awesome and original pokemon (steel/fighting(only 2 pokemon have that type))

 

[lobotheduck21]

I dont think lucario is more popular than most of gen 1 pokemon tbh, he is kinda cool but honestly i dont see the appeal, also i feel he is more of popular smash character than anything, i feel his popularity mostly comes from him making it into smash (wish he had never gotten in...).

I can name exactly two gen 1 Pokemon that have had a movie, mew and mewtwo

Anyways, I look at the ign pole, mew got 6th, one big movie or event away, we might have to add him to the conversation (although it might be to late)

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is pretty damn generic. Even to the point that its trophies in Melee and Brawl are about the species rather than the one specific Yoshi.
Oh, and that one specific Yoshi? He RARELY appears in the series outside the sports titles.
Hell, he's not even the star of "his" OWN SERIES! All those Yoshi are just random generic Yoshi. The "main" Yoshi I just mentioned was only in Yoshi's Island DS revealed to be the last Star Child at the very end.

 

[MagnesD3]

Umm...in many polls, Lucario is among the Top as far as Favorite Pokemon. And actually, he was a popular choice for Brawl due to his popularity in Pokemon. So...yeah. He didn't gain his popularity from Smash...he's just awesome in game and had a popular movie.

Really ever since the movies have went straight to dvd ive considered them dead. Also I really hate the fact he got in and mewtwo went bye bye when mewtwo is way more iconic. Also I hate the fact lucario isnt even legendary he is just an average poke.

 

[Opossum]

You know i used to think there was a " toad" but the only real evidence i have is maybe smb2 and that technically wasnt supposed to be a mario game, and really what in the world would toad do, i mean toad is considered pretty generic if princess peach holds one up as a shield. I also feel d3 spamming his underling waddle dees show how generic they are as well. Its not that i hate the minor characters i just dont think those characters are good reps for the series on a stage of iconic figures.

Toad, the species, are Kino in Japan. The individual is Kinopio. What more do you need?

And for being Peach's special, he can be replaced with Toadsworth so Toad can be playable. Problem solved.

 

[Arcadenik]

There's also evidence to suggest that there's a specific Toad(hence why SMwiki gives him a seperate page), and of course Bandana Dee is a specific Waddle Dee, so basically the whole generic argument is basically moot.

I guess it's probably for the best to just start calling them Kinopio (for Toad) and Bandana Dee (for Waddle Dee) to clarify that whenever we say those names, we meant THE Toad (the red-spotted Toad with blue vest) and THE Waddle Dee (the Waddle Dee with blue bandana) and NOT a generic Toad (red-spotted Toad with red vest nor blue-spotted Toad with blue vest) and NOT a generic Waddle Dee (a naked Waddle Dee).

 

[lobotheduck21]

You know who is generic

 

[Deleted member]

Kinos have had the exact same color scheme as Kinopio. Plenty of times.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

You know i used to think there was a " toad" but the only real evidence i have is maybe smb2 and that technically wasnt supposed to be a mario game,

There's more than enough evidence in other games, if you look for it(keep reading that SMWiki article).

and really what in the world would toad do, i mean toad is considered pretty generic if princess peach holds one up as a shield.

Go read the Toad thread.

I also feel d3 spamming his underling waddle dees show how generic they are as well.

The thing is, Bandana Dee isn't generic. He's got his bandana(duh), but he also has his own unique abilities with his spear(most Waddle Dees wield parasols, if they wield anything at all).

 

[Opossum]

Really ever since the movies have went straight to dvd ive considered them dead. Also I really hate the fact he got in and mewtwo went bye bye when mewtwo is way more iconic.

So you make the rules about what counts? I hope you never need credibility anymore...

And Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Really ever since the movies have went straight to dvd ive considered them dead. Also I really hate the fact he got in and mewtwo went bye bye when mewtwo is way more iconic.

Don't the movies still get theatrical releases in Japan?

 

[3Bismyname]

I dont think lucario is more popular than most of gen 1 pokemon tbh, he is kinda cool but honestly i dont see the appeal, also i feel he is more of popular smash character than anything, i feel his popularity mostly comes from him making it into smash (wish he had never gotten in...).

last i checked Lucario was in the top 30 outranking Pikachu and Jiggypuff respectively. the only pokemon in Smash that beat him out in popularity were Charizard and Mewtwo

 

[MagnesD3]

Toad, the species, are Kino in Japan. The individual is Kinopio. What more do you need?

And for being Peach's special, he can be replaced with Toadsworth so Toad can be playable. Problem solved.

omg im all for toadsworth being the toad peach pulls out, lolol id die laughing.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Don't the movies still get theatrical releases in Japan?

I think so, I know most anime movies are theatrical releases in Japan... from what I've heard

 

[MagnesD3]

Don't the movies still get theatrical releases in Japan?

really, interesting. japan does love its pokemon god it sells like hotcakes over there.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kinos have had the exact same color scheme as Kinopio.

Yeah, but that's what palette swaps are for. What's the big deal?

Default = Kinopio
Palette swaps = Kinos

Oh, and THE Yoshi isn't the only green Yoshi in existence. Generic Yoshis come in green, too.

OMG. Why are we having this generic argument again?

 

[ChronoBound]

last i checked Lucario was in the top 30 outranking Pikachu and Jiggypuff respectively. the only pokemon in Smash that beat him out in popularity were Charizard and Mewtwo

LOL at any other Pokemon but Pikachu being the Number 1 most popular Pokemon of all time. Jigglypuff is also still plenty popular in Japan (I believe still in the Top 5). Mewtwo of course is probably within the Top 3 (as well as Charizard).

 

[Little Nemo]

I know the Poke movies have theatrical releases in Japan because there's almost always a special Poke card.
Only read the last few pages and totally going to break the flow of convo. Forgive me.
Tetra would be really cool. No magic but not as ninja-y as Shiek. Because we REALLY need more Zelda characters!

 

[Opossum]

@Chrono. I believe he meant on the IGN poll, which had Charizard at #1 and Mewtwo at #2, but Pikachu at like #38-ish.

 

[MagnesD3]

Im just not a fan of gen reps im a fan of permanent reps of the series, everybody knows pikachu, jiggly, mewtwo, and red. Also even if there is a Toad I just cant see him having an interesting moveset, im sure its possible but it would be super forced. Honestly i havent wanted toad in since the original ssb back when i got everything that had mario on it lol.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well it's IGN, it shouldn't be that surprising that people over there have such a fascination with Gen 1. To them that's the only thing that matters and everything else is disgraceful trash.

 

[MagnesD3]

@Chrono. I believe he meant on the IGN poll, which had Charizard at #1 and Mewtwo at #2, but Pikachu at like #38-ish.

But ign is 80 percent stupid, sometimes they are alright but they say alot of dumb crap like giving journey goty lol.

 

[Arcadenik]

Im just not a fan of gen reps im a fan of permanent reps of the series, everybody knows pikachu, jiggly, mewtwo, and red. Also even if there is a Toad I just cant see him having an interesting moveset, im sure its possible but it would be super forced. Honestly i havent wanted toad in since the original ssb back when i got everything that had mario on it lol.

Not any more forced than pulling made-up moves out of Sakurai's butt for certain characters who are already in.