Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[PsychoIncarnate]

Except that a non-Final Fantasy canon character like Sora would only work for a Kingdom Hearts fighting game, not a fighting game exclusively for Final Fantasy continuity.
The only way that a KH fighting game can possibly be done is if it only incorporated the OCs and possibly a few FF reps, even though they've been severely downplayed as of late.
That's taking a big chunk out of KH, the Disney Universe aspect, so what would be the point of that?

It wasn't meant to be a FF fighting game. The FF characters were added after they were unable to get the licensing for Disney characters

 

[Deleted member]

It wasn't meant to be a FF fighting game. The FF characters were added after they were unable to get the licensing for Disney characters

I get that.
However, you said that "they didn't make an exception for Sora" in the past, however, they really couldn't if it wasn't a KH game.
Having random Sora in a game that ties in FF canon (whether or not it was the original intent) would be rather awkward.

 

[Opossum]

Hunchback is a movie that was almost good, but ruined by the gargoyles.

It would have been more interesting if the gargoyles turned out to be "imaginary friends" or the likes, only existing in Frodo's head

Of course, Hellfire is still one of the best, if not the best, Disney villain song

I believe it was implied at one point that they were all in Quasimodo's imagination, brought about by his desire to interact with people. One of the filmmakers or something.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I believe it was implied at one point that they were all in Quasimodo's imagination, brought about by his desire to interact with people. One of the filmmakers or something.

That might have worked, if they hadn't actually fought in the final battle and interacted with people that weren't Quasimodo.

regardless, they were the reason most people don't consider the movie one of the great Disney movies

 

[N3ON]

The Cap will not be higher. it's a faulty assumption because your assuming Sonic and Snake will come back at all and that Sakurai will pile on more third party characters. Neither are likely.

First, guest characters never return. Even a game like Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing which had a guest character (Banjo) didn't return despite having more guest characters (Wreck-it-Ralph and that one Nascar racer). Soul Caliber has guest all the time, all of which never return. This includes Heihachi who Namco even owns. Part of being a guest is that you are a guest. You not part of the main cast and your there because it's interesting. With a guy who has severely limited guest characters (with Sonic scraping by at the end despite being the most popular character ever), I don't he would load up the roster with third party characters. Heck, it's not unreasonable to think that they wouldn't even do them at all.

I have no real interest in debating this with you, no matter what’s said, neither of us are going to be changing our opinions. I guess I’ll agree to disagree, and we’ll see what happens.

Basically, Sakurai is not one to stuff the game with guest like other games do so 4 is very unlikely. For the record, common knowledge for Brawl was that there would be 3 third party characters.

Having less than 10% of the roster being third-party is not “stuffing” the roster, like Opossum said.

The common assumption was there would be three third-parties in Brawl. In addition to Snake, Sakurai said there would be “1 or 2 more”. There was one more.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I believe it was implied at one point that they were all in Quasimodo's imagination, brought about by his desire to interact with people.

Which is kinda contradicted since the gargoyles killed Frollo.

The gargoyles in general were very inappropriate within the context of the movie. It was a movie that had controversial concepts like religion and racism, and to see the gargoyles dancing and prancing around akin to Genie felt jarring.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

LOL, I called Quasimodo Frodo.

He does look like a Hobbit, though

Which is kinda contradicted since the gargoyles killed Frollo.

The gargoyles in general were very inappropriate within the context of the movie.

I viewed THAT gargoyle as more symbolism than actually willingly breaking itself to kill Frollo

 

[8-peacock-8]

Quasimodo on a journey to Mt. Doom.

 

[Opossum]

Whoops. Forgot about that part...ONE DAY into the new year and I already derp...



EDIT: Unless The Hunchback takes place in the same universe as Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends.

 

[SmashChu]

I have no real interest in debating this with you, no matter what’s said, neither of us are going to be changing our opinions. I guess I’ll agree to disagree, and we’ll see what happens.

That's fine.

Having less than 10% of the roster being third-party is not “stuffing” the roster, like Opossum said.

The common assumption was there would be three third-parties in Brawl. In addition to Snake, Sakurai said there would be “1 or 2 more”. There was one more.

There is a lot too it. Part of Smash is "Nintendo content," so you can't stray to far from that without the game becoming a mess. Third party characters are a nice little treat, but it will soon rot your teeth. Most cross-over games fall victim to this and, as a result, come out with worst rosters. Additionally, the characters have to something people would be excited to see. Pac-Man, or any Namco rep, wont do this and is an example of cramming.

And, the last bit, you and I are saying the same thing. Point it, it was always believed we would have another.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well we're not exactly begging for Nintendo vs. Capcom here you know. We are quite well aware of limiting the numbers in order to not distract from the main focus of Super Smash Bros. being a Nintendo crossover. However, third party characters that do have merits with Nintendo's history should at least be considered, like Sega's mascot Sonic being the former rival of Nintendo's mascot Mario and causing arguably the biggest console war ever between the Sega Genesis and SNES.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well we're not exactly begging for Nintendo vs. Capcom here you know. We are quite well aware of limiting the numbers in order to not distract from the main focus of Super Smash Bros. being a Nintendo crossover. However, third party characters that do have merits with Nintendo's history should at least be considered, like Sega's mascot Sonic being the former rival of Nintendo's mascot Mario and causing arguably the biggest console war ever between the Sega Genesis and SNES.

Fair enough. But what are Snake's merits? And I don't mean "Kojima is friends with Sakurai" and "Snake was in Brawl! No cutting!" At least Mega Man and Pac-Man had some history with Nintendo. The whole Mega Man franchise got its start on the NES. Pac-Man had crossovers with Mario twice and Miyamoto made Vs. Pac-Man, a game that seems to be the inspiration of Mario Chase in Nintendo Land. All Snake's games on Nintendo systems are ports/remakes. Metal Gear on the NES? Port of the MSX original game. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes on the Gamecube? Remake of the PSOne original game. Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater 3D? Remake of the PS3 original game. And these are only counting the Nintendo Metal Gear games that Kojima himself counts as canon. It's like Kojima doesn't really want to bother making a brand-new Metal Gear Solid game for Nintendo, only porting Playstation games just to meet the "all third-party characters need to have at least one game on a Nintendo system" criteria to justify Snake's inclusion in Smash games.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Fair enough. But what are Snake's merits? And I don't mean "Kojima is friends with Sakurai" and "Snake was in Brawl! No cutting!" At least Mega Man and Pac-Man had some history with Nintendo. The whole Mega Man franchise got its start on the NES. Pac-Man had crossovers with Mario twice and Miyamoto made Vs. Pac-Man, a game that seems to be the inspiration of Mario Chase in Nintendo Land. All Snake's games on Nintendo systems are ports/remakes. Metal Gear on the NES? Port of the MSX original game. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes on the Gamecube? Remake of the PSOne original game. Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater 3D? Remake of the PS3 original game. And these are only counting the Nintendo Metal Gear games that Kojima himself counts as canon. It's like Kojima doesn't really want to bother making a brand-new Metal Gear Solid game for Nintendo, only porting Playstation games just to meet the "all third-party characters need to have at least one game on a Nintendo system" criteria to justify Snake's inclusion in Smash games.

Snake Eater was a PS2 game

 

[Arcadenik]

Snake Eater was a PS2 game

It is still a PlayStation system.

 

[assosiaan2014]

Third Party Characters

Snake Eater was a PS2 game

Just because a certain character from another franchise made an appearance in a Nintendo game doesn't give them full rights to be in smash bros. I mean do you really want a soldier from call of duty in SSBU? I know I don't.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Just because a certain character from another franchise made an appearance in a Nintendo game doesn't give them full rights to be in smash bros. I mean do you really want a soldier from call of duty in SSBU? I know I don't.

What does that have to do with MGS3 originally being on PS2?

 

[3Bismyname]

Absolutely nothing lol

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Just because a certain character from another franchise made an appearance in a Nintendo game doesn't give them full rights to be in smash bros. I mean do you really want a soldier from call of duty in SSBU? I know I don't.

Snake is an awesome character, I like the series and he is one of my favorites in Brawl. I was just correcting him when he said PS3 game.

And no to Call of Duty soldier

 

[8-peacock-8]

That's a good example of a wasted slot.

Generic CoD soldier.

 

[Deleted member]

Well we're not exactly begging for Nintendo vs. Capcom here you know.

*raises hand

I am. I would ****ing love that. However, it would need to be an arcade fighter, not a party fighter like Smash Bros. A traditional HP-based arcade fighter with Nintendo and Capcom characters.

Just because a certain character from another franchise made an appearance in a Nintendo game doesn't give them full rights to be in smash bros. I mean do you really want a soldier from call of duty in SSBU? I know I don't.

Gahaha, but Cowadooty Black ***** Too Soldur wud be de epix XDXDXD!!!

Anyway, Snake is a cool character, I dunno why you're *****ing about him being in Smash. Sure Simon would have been more appropriate, but consider that Snake got in under special circumstances.

And according to Sakurai it DOES give them the right, he makes the rules. Not you.

Fair enough. But what are Snake's merits? And I don't mean "Kojima is friends with Sakurai" and "Snake was in Brawl! No cutting!" At least Mega Man and Pac-Man had some history with Nintendo. The whole Mega Man franchise got its start on the NES. Pac-Man had crossovers with Mario twice and Miyamoto made Vs. Pac-Man, a game that seems to be the inspiration of Mario Chase in Nintendo Land. All Snake's games on Nintendo systems are ports/remakes. Metal Gear on the NES? Port of the MSX original game. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes on the Gamecube? Remake of the PSOne original game. Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater 3D? Remake of the PS3 original game. And these are only counting the Nintendo Metal Gear games that Kojima himself counts as canon. It's like Kojima doesn't really want to bother making a brand-new Metal Gear Solid game for Nintendo, only porting Playstation games just to meet the "all third-party characters need to have at least one game on a Nintendo system" criteria to justify Snake's inclusion in Smash games.

I kinda wanna pin Kojima not wanting to make a new Metal Gear Movie on a Nintendo console because Nintendo Consoles lack the power to handle them. Perhaps we'll see this change with the WiiU and the possible absence of the PS4.

But you're right, Snake has no merits that contribute to Nintendo, that was the shock factor behind him.

That's a good example of a wasted slot.

Generic CoD soldier.

I think someone wanted him a couple pages back. I recall seeing someone making that their requested 3rd Party.

Anyway, I kinda agree with what Smash Chu said about the 3rd party characters. They ARE guests. Them coming back would be like Yoda, or Heihachi, or Link returning in the consecutive Soul Calibur entries. Which as we know didn't happen. So we might expect Snake and Sonic not to return at all.

So if we follow this though, to answer the question of what four 3rd party entries I expect to see:
-Simon
-MegaMan
-PacMan/Lloyd
-Travis

What I want to see:
-Snake
-KOS-MOS
-Travis
-whatever

 

[3Bismyname]

I actually find Travis very unlikely for a third party rep

[/size

 

[Deleted member]

I actually find Travis very unlikely for a third party rep

[/size

I know, but he's my gambit.

 

[Deleted member]

*raises hand

I am. I would ****ing love that. However, it would need to be an arcade fighter, not a party fighter like Smash Bros. A traditional HP-based arcade fighter with Nintendo and Capcom characters.

I am all for this happening as well.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I would love Nintendo Vs. Capcom also.

 

[Dark Phazon]

My current roster prediction picture (the same one I'll use in Toise's bet -- when we actually get another deadline, so it's been made with his restrictions in mind)

Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are still included, even though they don't have pictures.

Last edited 12/23/12 (roster change)

Looks Awsome! Best Roster Art i have seen.
Were did you get the software? can i has please?

But i would take Lucario and either Shulk or Issac. It would look more Realistic imo but yh great!!!

 

[JPW]

if Sonic doesn't return i'm willing to bet there will be a lot of upset fans. If you thought the Mewtwo uproar was bad you ain't seen nothing from Sonic loyalists.

I also see Travis very unlikely. Don't get me wrong i'm a big fan of NMH. But it doesn't exactly fit Nintendo's friendly environment in Brawl. And how would we charge that Lightsaber surely Nintendo wouldn't want kids jacking up their wii-motes.

 

[8-peacock-8]

if Sonic doesn't return i'm willing to bet there will be a lot of upset fans. If you thought the Mewtwo uproar was bad you ain't seen nothing from Sonic loyalists.

I also see Travis very unlikely. Don't get me wrong i'm a big fan of NMH. But it doesn't exactly fit Nintendo's friendly environment in Brawl. And how would we charge that Lightsaber surely Nintendo wouldn't want kids jacking up their wii-motes.

They'll be holding the Wii mote like an NES controller though. So it wouldn't be bad. (And they wouldn't need to add the jack off re-charge if Travis got in.)

 

[Deleted member]

if Sonic doesn't return i'm willing to bet there will be a lot of upset fans. If you thought the Mewtwo uproar was bad you ain't seen nothing from Sonic loyalists.

I also see Travis very unlikely. Don't get me wrong i'm a big fan of NMH. But it doesn't exactly fit Nintendo's friendly environment in Brawl. And how would we charge that Lightsaber surely Nintendo wouldn't want kids jacking up their wii-motes.

Whoever said Smash 4 would play with Wii-motes?

Travis is (one) my (of) underdog(s), but I support him, he's the (only) off-the-wall unexpected guest (who actually has a decent chance of making it).

Anyway, **** the fans man, especially those SANIC furries. Loyalist fans are half of what's wrong with most video-games. I gotta say I do kind of agree with Smash Chu, expecting a guest to return is a bit far-fetched. SANIC fans and the rest of the people expecting the guests to return need to accept this. Do they have a chance of coming back, yes... It's really hard to tell at the moment. But the have an equal chance of NOT coming back, despite what the loyalist fans may or may not want/do about it.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Yeah..like predicting if any 1st party chars would get cut/replaced isnt a headache/hard enough..

Now we gotta think if Sonic and Snake will return or not...

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

While I agree that not having guest characters return should be expected, I think its a little different with smash bros.

Yes, Snake only got in because Kojima asked Sakurai to include Snake. Yes, it could be that it was only for one game, but nobody really knows that for sure. These two are apparently close friends, so if Kojima wanted Snake in for that reason, I don't see why Snake HAS to be removed, just because he is a 3rd party character.

Sonic is a wee bit different. He was the most popular character going into Brawl, and if he were to be removed, the backlash would assumably be worse than that of Mewtwo's removal. Meanwhile, Sonic hasn't had much success lately, so for Sega, it may be a good idea to continue their support of him being in the game.

Sure, you can argue that it is a business, and companies aren't going to let people use their characters all the time, but this situation isn't exactly black and white, more like a gray area. Especially, not that it matters, but Sakurai has mentioned and acknowledged that Sonic and Snake were well received by the fans. Whether that means anything for those two characters, i'm not sure.

Also, compare SSB to PSASBR. The latter has I think 4 3rd party characters on the roster, mostly for promotional reasons. Is it possible that those characters will stay? Absolutely. Hence why I don't think Snake and Sonic are so sure to be cut.

Like I said, business such as this can be a two way street and a very gray area. But I do see both sides to the debate. We will have to wait and see I suppose.

 

[3Bismyname]

Whoever said Smash 4 would play with Wii-motes?

Travis is (one) my (of) underdog(s), but I support him, he's the (only) off-the-wall unexpected guest (who actually has a decent chance of making it).

Anyway, **** the fans man, especially those SANIC furries. Loyalist fans are half of what's wrong with most video-games. I gotta say I do kind of agree with Smash Chu, expecting a guest to return is a bit far-fetched. SANIC fans and the rest of the people expecting the guests to return need to accept this. Do they have a chance of coming back, yes... It's really hard to tell at the moment. But the have an equal chance of NOT coming back, despite what the loyalist fans may or may not want/do about it.

they will be played with Wii-motes. thats how the Wii U can b played multi player. but obviously not the way he thinks, probably acting the same way as they did for brawl

and that second part i feel the same way about all those guys who want female characters purely to have another hole in the mix.

 

[SmashChu]

Yet again, did anyone actually complain about Super Smash Bros. Melee being way too hard? Seriously did ANYONE ANYWHERE actually state in bold black ink that Super Smash Bros. Melee was not accessible at all and it was way too brutal to actually learn and were thankful that Super Smash Bros. Brawl pretty much watered down everything?

From what I've read, it's pretty much inverted actually. Even the casual side of things disliked how Super Smash Bros. Brawl turned out.

You've stayed on Smash Board too long. Brawl is very well liked outside of here. Again, never listen to the Smashboard opinion.

Out of place? Sonic and Snake did not seem out of place at all in Brawl. They made them work. I'm not advocating going overboard. No, not at all. The two that I would personally advocate would arguably fit in better than they would, and that's saying something, what with the long history that Mega Man has had on Nintendo systems, and Pac Man being Miyamoto's favorite video game character.

And the last part about Snake is entirely subjective. Can't the same be said for all veterans? I don't see what makes Snake so unlikable a second time around...

Stylistically, Sonic was out of place. You can kind of tell that. Snake sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm sure that people will grow tired of him quickly if he returns.

Part of this is organization. In each game, you try to have set themes and looks to make everything mesh well together. In a cross over, it's the content of the company you use. For Smash, it's Nintendo. By trying to stay within the lines, it feels less like a fan game and more like a professionally done game. Too many third parties because a mess due to how out of place they are coupled with the facts that they are not part of the core Nintendo characters.

People liked third party characters because it was something special. It was something different and unique. While Snake is very out of place, he is welcomed warmly because it's a cool and different addition on top of everything else (Sonic is obvious). It's when it becomes normal that it stops becoming fun and becomes annoying. 3 is pushing it and 4 is too much. Sonic and Snake would lose their cool a second time because they become normal and lose what made them interesting in the first place. Some of the suggestions are a good point. Why the **** would Pac-Man be in? No one wants him and he would only exist to say "hey, we added someone from Namco. Cool, right?" The audience would hate it because it doesn't serve the purpose of these characters: to be fun and different additions. Additionally, these characters are not cheap and there is only more legality that comes with them. The person who you have to communicate with and please is not in your own company. If Sakurai does something and Nintendo developer doesn't like, it can be handled. If Sakurai doesn't please Sega, Nintendo could be sued. It's even more a reason to pick carefully and chose characters that make sense.

The heart of Sonic and Snake's addition was because they were different. They were something special. You got all these other great characters, but you get this big guest too. But once it becomes a norm and these characters are no different that the rest, it loses all the fun and what's left is a character who stylistically feels out of place.

I suspect if third party characters are coming back, it would be JUST Mega Man. He's the only one who could be justifiable and would make people happen. Sonic and Snake wont come back and it would be better that way. better to die gracefully then to go down in flames.

 

[3Bismyname]

a Namco Rep is far more justifiable than Megaman. honestly people give Megaman WAY to much credit. yes he's popular but i personally wont get my hopes up.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I see where you are coming from Smashchu, but quite a bit of what you are saying of Sonic and Snake is very much opinion. I don't see Sonic was out of place, and I wouldn't get sick of Snake at all.

Also, the reason why Sonic got in was far different than why other guest characters get in. He was requested by fans. I'm fairly certain that most guest characters, like Kratos in Mortal Kombat, or any of the guests in Soul Caliber were NOT requested by fans.

You can't say for certain that they will be removed. I can't say for certain that they won't be. Thats just how it is. Just because it happens in every other game doesn't mean it will happen in Smash Bros.

Not to mention, Smash Bros doesn't come out as often as a game such as Soul Caliber, so guest characters wouldn't lose their "magic" as easily as others would.

 

[Deleted member]

they will be played with Wii-motes. thats how the Wii U can b played multi player. but obviously not the way he thinks, probably acting the same way as they did for brawl

and that second part i feel the same way about all those guys who want female characters purely to have another hole in the mix.

Are you serious? What about the Pro Controllers? That's what I thought we'd be using for Smash 4...

If Smash 4 is Wii-Mote only, I'm seriously skipping out on it, and **** Nintendo.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Gameplay>>>>>Characters.

I can guarantee that there would be much more backlash from fans, casuals, and critics alike if Smash 4 goes that route, much more than there would be if Sonic didn't return for example.

Also, compare SSB to PSASBR. The latter has I think 4 3rd party characters on the roster, mostly for promotional reasons. Is it possible that those characters will stay? Absolutely. Hence why I don't think Snake and Sonic are so sure to be cut.

I like how you assume that game is getting a sequel, let alone that Sony will even be alive to make another.

Stylistically, Sonic was out of place. You can kind of tell that. Snake sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm sure that people will grow tired of him quickly if he returns.

I agree with your idea, but this a poor way to go about your argument. It is a very subjective point of view, and you're wrong on this on SO many levels. To be honest, they did a great job at making all the styles mesh together, especially compared to PSABR which just copy pasted the models from their games, and I've said it before, Snake would have fit in even better with Melee's more mature art direction, so that argument is totally null and void.

Lastly I get the impression that you think people would get tired of Snake simply because YOU don't like Snake. What's wrong? Get your *** handed by him too often?

I support your point of view on that the Guests may not return, but think of a better argument than this please.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I see where you are coming from Smashchu, but quite a bit of what you are saying of Sonic and Snake is very much opinion. I don't see Sonic was out of place, and I wouldn't get sick of Snake at all.

Also, the reason why Sonic got in was far different than why other guest characters get in. He was requested by fans. I'm fairly certain that most guest characters, like Kratos in Mortal Kombat, or any of the guests in Soul Caliber were NOT requested by fans.

You can't say for certain that they will be removed. I can't say for certain that they won't be. Thats just how it is. Just because it happens in every other game doesn't mean it will happen in Smash Bros.

Not to mention, Smash Bros doesn't come out as often as a game such as Soul Caliber, so guest characters wouldn't lose their "magic" as easily as others would.

Thank You ~ I Agree with this 1000/

 

[SuperBrawler]

if Sonic doesn't return i'm willing to bet there will be a lot of upset fans. If you thought the Mewtwo uproar was bad you ain't seen nothing from Sonic loyalists.

I also see Travis very unlikely. Don't get me wrong i'm a big fan of NMH. But it doesn't exactly fit Nintendo's friendly environment in Brawl. And how would we charge that Lightsaber surely Nintendo wouldn't want kids jacking up their wii-motes.

I am a Sonic fan myself and I really liked Mewtwo in Melee

 

[3Bismyname]

Are you serious? What about the Pro Controllers? That's what I thought we'd be using for Smash 4...

If Smash 4 is Wii-Mote only, I'm seriously skipping out on it, and **** Nintendo.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Gameplay>>>>>Characters.

I can guarantee that there would be much more backlash from fans, casuals, and critics alike if Smash 4 goes that route, much more than there would be if Sonic didn't return for example.

you know a lot of people dont mind Wii-motes dude. personally ive gotten used to them to the point that i dont much care for other controllers. and the pro controller will probably be compatable. but realize that Wii-motes are cheaper than Pro controllers

 

[FlareHabanero]

The problem is that you can't simply remove Sonic and not expect a big backlash, because Sonic was arguably the most requested character ever. You could not escape from Sonic during the days of speculation since the name popped up everywhere and everyone BEGGED and PLEADED for Sonic in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I always felt that Sonic was the most likely to return.

I can see Snake being replaced by Simon Belmont or Bomberman.

My generic opinion is generic.