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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

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Robert of Normandy

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Something I don't see much discussion about is what the reaction to the roster will be this time around. Given the fact that most of Nintendos' A-listers(and even a lot of their B-listers) have already been accounted for, we're undoubtedly going to see new characters more from Nintendos' C-list and below.

I think that, because of all the things I just mentioned, we're going to see a lot of discontent regarding the characters added to the roster because, as we've seen, everyone has wildly different expectations about who should be playable.

I hope that made sense...
 

Opossum

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I get what you're saying. But due to the small pool of choices, I feel that perhaps the characters will be more agreed on. You know, due to there being less of them. Just my personal opinion.
 

Robert of Normandy

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I get what you're saying. But due to the small pool of choices, I feel that perhaps the characters will be more agreed on. You know, due to there being less of them. Just my personal opinion.
The pool isn't really very small. The reason I think there will be backlash/dissent is that most of the choices aren't very well known, so there's a lot of division in who people want in. Outside of Ridley, K. Rool, and Megaman, I don't think that there's a consensus on who needs to be in. And even the characters I mentioned aren't universally wanted.
 

Diddy Kong

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King K.Rool, Little Mac, Palutena, Takamaru, Krom and Ridley are generally agreed upon mostly to have high chances of making it. And I'd say that I expect them all making it.

:phone:
 

Robert of Normandy

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King K.Rool, Little Mac, Palutena, Takamaru, Krom and Ridley are generally agreed upon mostly to have high chances of making it. And I'd say that I expect them all making it.

:phone:
I'd agree with you on K.Rool, Ridley, and maybe Little Mac. The others, I've yet to see consistent results that suggest they're popular.

I don't get why everyone thinks Taka is so popular. Sure, he showed up in Nintendoland, but outside of this site, can anyone point me to a poll or something where he was in the top percentage of characters requested? Even in the polls on this site, he hasn't done particularily well.
 

DarkSouls

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Mewtwo is pretty damn popular, placing high in both American and Japanese polls. I'd call him another A-lister.

We already added a C-lister in Smash Bros 64 (Jigglypuff) so it's not like adding some more will be a huge problem.

Hopefully.:urg:
 

Carlo_H.Luz

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Namco Bandai has just joined Masahiro Sakurai's Super Smash Bros. 4. This means that Nintendo is having a good relationship with Namco Bandai. But indeed Namco Bandai have excellent relationships with Capcom and Sega (Project X Zone). This fact opens the door for much more third party characters in Super Smash Bros 4. Adding more third party characters is now even more important because Sony's new game: Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale features third party characters too. Nintendo have to take that in consideration. Sakurai has already stated that SSB4 wont have tons of playable characters but this is my WISHlist for the new Super Smash Bros (i hope 2 see at least one in the game):

NINTENDO:
-Krystal (Star Fox)
-Andross (Star Fox)
-Mewtwo (Pokemon)
-Deoxys (Pokemon)
-Waluigi (Mario Bros.)
-Rosalina (Mario Bros.)
-Daisy (Mario Bros.)
-Wart (Mario Bros.)
-Dr. Mario (Dr. Mario)
-Funky Kong (Donkey Kong)
-Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
-Midna (The Legend Of Zelda)
-Skull Kid (The Legend Of Zelda)
-Dark Samus (Metroid)
-Anthony Higgs (Metroid)
-Little Mac (Punch Out!!)
-Master Hand (Super Smash Bros.)
-Shulk (Xenoblade Chronicles)
-Aeron (Pandora's Tower)
-Zael (The Last Story)
-Smithy (Super Mario RPG)
-Non-Specific Action Figure (Miiverse Trailer)
-Isaac (Golden Sun)

NAMCO-BANDAI:
-Pac-Man (Pac-Man)
-Taizo Hori (Dig Dug)
-Kazuya (Tekken)
-Heihachi (Tekken)
-Jin Kazama (Tekken)
-King (Tekken)
-Hwoarang (Tekken)
-Ogre (Tekken)
-Kuma [Panda] (Tekken)
-Yoshimitsu (Tekken/SoulCalibur)
-Siegfried (SoulCalibur)
-Nightmare (SoulCalibur)
-Mitsusugi (SoulCalibur)
-Voldo (SoulCalibur)
-Kilik (SoulCalibur)
-Ivy (SoulCalibur)
-Astaroth (SoulCalibur)
-Klonoa (Klonoa)
-Goku (Dragon Ball)
-Naruto (Naruto)
-Digimon Trainer [Agumon, Angemon, Weregarurumon] (Digimon)

CAPCOM:
-Ryu (Street Fighter)
-Ken (Street Fighter)
-Chun Li (Street Fighter)
-Guile (Street Fighter)
-Blanka (Street Fighter)
-Sagat (Street Fighter)
-M. Bison (Street Fighter)
-Akuma (Street Fighter)
-Megaman (Megaman)
-Zero (Megaman)
-Viewtiful Joe (Viewtiful Joe)
-Phoenix Wright (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney)
-Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins)
-Dante (Devil May Cry)
-Vergil (Devil May Cry)
-Leon S. Kennedy (Resident Evil)
-Nemesis (Resident Evil)
-Tyrant (Resident Evil)
-Frank West (Dead Rising)
-Captain Commando (Captain Commando)
-Morrigan (DarkStalkers)
-Amaterasu (Okami)

SEGA:
-Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Amy Rose (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Dr. Eggman (Sonic the Hedgehog)
-Akira Yuki (Virtua Fighter)
-Jacky Bryant (Virtua Fighter)
-Kage-Maru (Virtua Fighter)
-Dural (Virtua Fighter)
-AiAi (Super Monkey Ball)
-Hatsune Miku (Hatsune Miku: Project Mirai)
-Alien (Alien)
-Predator (Predator)
-Bayonetta (Bayonetta)
-Amigo (Samba De Amigo)
-Gilius Thunderhead (Golden Axe)
-Jack Cayman (MadWorld)
-B. D. Joe (Crazy Taxi)
-The Magician (The House Of The Dead)
 

Robert of Normandy

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Question: I'm sure I've posted this somewhere before, but what do people think the limits on third parties should be? And I don't just mean on who can or can't be in.

Personally, I think there should be no more than one character per Third-Party franchise. What does everyone else think?
 

FlareHabanero

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One character per franchise would be the limit for the third-party characters, with a limit of 2-3 for each installment. Of course this isn't counting cameos like trophies or stickers.

:phone:
 

Starphoenix

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Honestly I hope there are not any guest characters, or if there are it is only Sonic the Hedgehog and Megaman. I'd settle for Dragon Quest too, but I'm not going to whine and complain when it doesn't happen.
 

Robert of Normandy

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One character per franchise would be the limit for the third-party characters, with a limit of 2-3 for each installment. Of course this isn't counting cameos like trophies or stickers.

:phone:
Okay, one per franchise makes since. But what about per company?
 

FlareHabanero

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Limit on company is more ambiguous due to there being no word on the subject, but I presume it's only one per company. But with Namco working on the next game, this may or may not be the case.

:phone:
 
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Question: I'm sure I've posted this somewhere before, but what do people think the limits on third parties should be? And I don't just mean on who can or can't be in.

Personally, I think there should be no more than one character per Third-Party franchise. What does everyone else think?
0-3 third-party characters for SSB4 would be ideal. I'll settle for 4 if we get a 54+ character roster (transformation included), but would prefer less.

Honestly, the only realistic third-party characters at the moment are Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, and maybe Professor Layton. Even then, the only one that I feel will be in is Mega Man and he is not a guarantee. People are putting too much stock into third-parties in general, especially a Namco Bandai rep.
 

SubparSmashBrother

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Mewtwo is pretty damn popular, placing high in both American and Japanese polls. I'd call him another A-lister.

We already added a C-lister in Smash Bros 64 (Jigglypuff) so it's not like adding some more will be a huge problem.
Jigglypuff wasn't C-list when she was added. Back in 1998 everyone knew who jigglypuff was, even grown men who never played pokemon.

----

I think Isaac has surprisingly higher chances than most people think. He was pretty popular around brawl pre-release and appeared as an assist trophy, meaning sakurai acknowledges he's a worthy character. He fits all criteria and IMO is a shoe in.

Others I feel that have strong possibilities are Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool, heck even Roy. Speaking of Roy and Mewtwo, I actually think Dr. Mario has a good shot at making it in. Nobody really supports him, but he was part of the forbidden 7 and many people remember and enjoyed him in melee... plus sakurai has a knack for surprising people and being unpredictable.
 

Starphoenix

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I think Isaac has surprisingly higher chances than most people think. He was pretty popular around brawl pre-release and appeared as an assist trophy, meaning sakurai acknowledges he's a worthy character. He fits all criteria and IMO is a shoe in.
Just the same you can say that because Sakurai did not think they (Assist Trophies) could work as playable characters before that he won't now. Really, bar Little Mac, and maybe Starfy, none of the other characters themselves have had any significant achievements since Brawl.
 

Johnknight1

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4-6 3rd party characters is my idea number. Because quite frankly, most Nintendo characters are pretty much the same, and have absolutely one-dimensional stories, personalities, and character depth. I mean literally, like 3/4ths of the Smash Bros. roster have the same 3 or 4 basic character archetypes. If it wasn't for the fact these characters were in games with no story and loads of great gameplay, nobody would give two craps about them.

:snakebrawl: and :sonicbrawl: have a lot of personality. :snakebrawl: also has a lot depth in every sense of the word (way more than any Nintendo character who has been playable in smash thus far).
King K.Rool, Little Mac, Palutena, Takamaru, Krom and Ridley are generally agreed upon mostly to have high chances of making it. And I'd say that I expect them all making it.
I've been saying Paletuna is more unlikely than likely since day 1, even back when everyone thought we'd get her and Medusa as playable characters. Takamaru, eh, I think he's a bit more likely. Krom... I just don't know, but he's got a shot. I don't see him getting over Marth and Ike (who is a the new standard for BAMF status in smash, along with Snake).

However, I do think K. Rool and Ridley are "shoe-in characters" (along with Mewtwo), and Little Mac is just outside the range of a "shoe-in" character. After that, there's a big drop off for 1st and 2nd party characters. While there are clear favorites after that (like Dixie Kong), the gap between characters in every sense (of measurement) is very small.
 

Johnknight1

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That's because she is PALE TUNA!!!

Plus I don't exactly find her interesting. Most people just expect her because she is in Kid Icarus: Uprising, because Sakurai made Kid Icarus: Uprising, because she is a female, and because of all the (former) Medusa fans pushing for her after people were somehow shocked Medusa was minimally important to Uprising's plot.

Fortunately most of the (frequent) posters on here aren't like that though.

Also Carlo, use dem collapse tag. That or cut like 90% of the Capcom and Namco Bandai character list! :laugh:
 

ChronoBound

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Just the same you can say that because Sakurai did not think they (Assist Trophies) could work as playable characters before that he won't now. Really, bar Little Mac, and maybe Starfy, none of the other characters themselves have had any significant achievements since Brawl.
I have noticed this too. Though in the case of Saki and and Isaac, there was a new installment for both of their series (though both characters were not main characters in those respective sequels).

Starfy is a bit curious though. While the character had a successful international release, his last game was released in Japan in 2008. So on that note, the series has been on hiatus for four years. Prior to then, the longest time frame between Starfy games was two years. However, I think a new Starfy game will eventually happen on the 3DS, though I think due to Starfy's relatively low profile since Brawl's release that he will be overlooked for a spot on the roster.
 

FlareHabanero

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Actually Starfy is a highly requested character in Japan, which is justfied since most of the games were exclusive to Japan. The hiatus in recent years may not influence much in the end.

Also if I recall correctly, Starfy and Waluigi are the biggest newcomers requested in Japan.

:phone:
 
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@Habanero: It's only in the March, 2012 finding ChronoBound posted on GameFAQs where it shows Waluigi and Starfy as highly popular requests.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that the four most popular requests are King K. Rool, Mewtwo, Ridley, and Mega Man (my guess is Mewtwo 1st, K. Rool 2nd, Ridley 3rd, and Mega Man 4th in that order). They are the ones with a general consensus that they should be in. Little Mac and Isaac are also highly requested in general (thought like Ridley, is mostly concentrated in the West), although not to the same extent as those four.

The community is split on everyone else.
 

ChronoBound

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I would say most of Little Mac and Isaac's popularity is concentrated in the West too.
 
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I'd like to bring up Sakurai's four criteria.

I have been thinking a lot about them recently and have been taking it very seriously, given that all characters in Brawl fulfill them. These are the four in case people don't know them:

1. A character must make someone want to play the game.
2. A character must be unique.
3. A character must fit within the environment of Smash.
4. A character must contribute to the game balance.

The first three I think I can easily understand, but the fourth one throws me off. Currently, I have been trying to understand what it means to counter someone. SmashChu gave an example with a potential newcomer in which Ghirahim could counter Marth, but I'm not sure how I could form the argument that characters can contribute to the game balance. It'd be pretty helpful when discussing characters that could appear in SSB4.
I would say most of Little Mac and Isaac's popularity is concentrated in the West too.
That's what I was saying. Ridley, Little Mac, and Isaac's popularity are generally concentrated in the West.
 

FlareHabanero

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Isaac and Little Mac being more popular in the west may be due to Golden Sun and Punch Out!! being more popular in western terratories. This is noticeable since both are barely mentioned in Japan forums akin to this. I also noticed that western fans are more interested in retro characters, ironically Takamaru being the most commonly requested retro character.

Also Mewtwo and Roy are not newcomers, so they don't count.

:phone:
 

DarkSouls

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Jigglypuff wasn't C-list when she was added. Back in 1998 everyone knew who jigglypuff was, even grown men who never played pokemon.
I'd call her C-list. She wasn't a main character from the anime (Recurring character=/=main character), she wasn't important at all in the games. She just got through due to popularity (Which in my opinion, doesn't stop her from being C-list).

Others I feel that have strong possibilities are Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool, heck even Roy. Speaking of Roy and Mewtwo, I actually think Dr. Mario has a good shot at making it in. Nobody really supports him, but he was part of the forbidden 7 and many people remember and enjoyed him in melee... plus sakurai has a knack for surprising people and being unpredictable.
People enjoyed him in Melee because he was a better Mario, with his pills vastly outclassing Mario's fireballs.

I really hope we don't get Doctor Mario, and I don't think we will. Just give Mario's fireballs the same trajectory as the pills and give him other buffs to match Doc's abilities.
 
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I think if Dr. Mario shows up in Smash again, it'll be as a costume. Chances of playable status seems very slim at this point.
 

Starphoenix

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Isaac and Little Mac being more popular in the west may be due to Golden Sun and Punch Out!! being more popular in western terratories. This is noticeable since both are barely mentioned in Japan forums akin to this. I also noticed that western fans are more interested in retro characters, ironically Takamaru being the most commonly requested retro character.

Also Mewtwo and Roy are not newcomers, so they don't count.

:phone:
I think I'd hate to see who their "Ridley and Isaac" is...
 

SmashChu

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I'd like to bring up Sakurai's four criteria.

I have been thinking a lot about them recently and have been taking it very seriously, given that all characters in Brawl fulfill them. These are the four in case people don't know them:

1. A character must make someone want to play the game.
2. A character must be unique.
3. A character must fit within the environment of Smash.
4. A character must contribute to the game balance.

The first three I think I can easily understand, but the fourth one throws me off. Currently, I have been trying to understand what it means to counter someone. SmashChu gave an example with a potential newcomer in which Ghirahim could counter Marth, but I'm not sure how I could form the argument that characters can contribute to the game balance. It'd be pretty helpful when discussing characters that could appear in SSB4.That's what I was saying. Ridley, Little Mac, and Isaac's popularity are generally concentrated in the West.
First, major props for using the 4 criteria. You'll be more spot on and your roster decisions will make more sense and probably be easier to convey.

#4 is really hard to apply. Most of the time, I kind of just guess because it hard to say what will happen. Just think about what the character can do (#2) and see if that meshes with the rest of the cast.
 

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Perhaps someone else can verify this, but there is a guy on Gamefaqs who said that the creators of the Sin and Punishment series wanted Saki Amamiya as a playable character in Brawl, but was made an Assist Trophy due to being too late into development. Now I never recall hearing anything like this, but since I'm not infallible there is a chance one of you guys/gals may know better than I. Chances are though this is either flat out misinformation or a misunderstanding.
 

SmashChu

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Perhaps someone else can verify this, but there is a guy on Gamefaqs who said that the creators of the Sin and Punishment series wanted Saki Amamiya as a playable character in Brawl, but was made an Assist Trophy due to being too late into development. Now I never recall hearing anything like this, but since I'm not infallible there is a chance one of you guys/gals may know better than I. Chances are though this is either flat out misinformation or a misunderstanding.
Probably misunderstanding. Never heard it.
 

FlareHabanero

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Arguably the only Assist Trophies to ever been hinted at once being playable during development is Starfy and Ray mk III, with they're trophies oddly in the "Fighter Related" catagory. Even then it's more likely a simple error.

:phone:
 

DarkSouls

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First, major props for using the 4 criteria. You'll be more spot on and your roster decisions will make more sense and probably be easier to convey.

#4 is really hard to apply. Most of the time, I kind of just guess because it hard to say what will happen. Just think about what the character can do (#2) and see if that meshes with the rest of the cast.
I think the problem with #4 is that characters are not the same in Smash Bros as they are in their original games.

Take Mewtwo. In the games, Mewtwo's only "weakness" is average defenses, although he is still more resilient than any other Smash pokemon except Lucariom. His attack is high, his special attack is monstrous, and he's one of the fastest pokes in the game. Logically, Mewtwo would not contribute to the game's balance at all if he was true to his original incarnation. However, Mewtwo turned out to be a low-tier character because his Smash self is lightweight (Even though he's heavy in the games), he lacks psychic powers to murder an opponent from across the battlefield, he's a bit slow, and he has terrible attack power for most of his moves.

Another example is Samus. Samus is not balanced in Super Metroid; she has tons of health, she's extremely agile, she can jump infinitely while transforming into an invincible buzz-saw, she can lay power bombs that hit everywhere on the screen, she can rapid-fire a wide charge beam that freezes enemies and goes through obstacles, and while her regular missiles do not home, she can rapid-fire them and can carry more than 100. Yet in two of the Smash games Samus has appeared in, she's been low-tier, and she's never been overpowered, and that's because her moveset was severely reduced and downgraded to balance her.

I think it's impossible to predict what effect a character will have on the game's balance. Even something as simple as basic characteristics can fail; yes, a slow heavyweight without super armor (Bowser) is less likely to be good than a fast character with a sword (Metaknight), but characters like Sonic, Pit, and Shiek are not top-tier in Brawl even when their basic concepts seem powerful (Fastest character; a guy with great projectiles, fast moves, and great recovery; an agile character with fast moves and the ability to transform into another character for versatility).
 
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First, major props for using the 4 criteria. You'll be more spot on and your roster decisions will make more sense and probably be easier to convey.

#4 is really hard to apply. Most of the time, I kind of just guess because it hard to say what will happen. Just think about what the character can do (#2) and see if that meshes with the rest of the cast.
Glad to see that you responded.

In regards to Sakurai's four criteria, I think I'm seeing where you're coming from here. For example, someone like Mewtwo easily fulfills all four criteria. It's easily one of the most wanted characters for Smash, obviously has great potentials to be unique (duh, Melee showed us that), and can mesh in well (it screams fighting-ready). Then you have someone like Victini which has weak (and worsening as time goes on) reception among the Smash community, not much unique potentials (move sets that are made shows similarities to what other Smash characters have; the only truly unique move I can think of is V-create), and it's Mew-like stats would make it stick out like a sore thumb as those are of a peaceful nature that have to be brought screaming and crying to a fight (it especially hurts Victini in that anime personality is used in Smash). That's why Victini's fan base collapsed and why Mewtwo's fan base has only kept growing. It's also why Mewtwo is among the most likely additions to the roster while Victini is doomed to a Pokeball.

Going to another subject related to this are characters with mostly made-up move sets and how they could fulfill Sakurai's four criteria. We've seen this with Captain Falcon in the original game. Before Smash 64, Captain Falcon was almost entirely seen inside his Blue Falcon and he was never seen fighting. Yet he was in Smash and his move sets reflected the fast nature of the game. Samurai Goroh works because he can reflect his move set from his home stage (Red Canyon). I believe Master Rapier made a move set for him.

It's also why I've been thinking of Mach Rider as a potential retro candidate (replacing Duck Hunt Dog on my prediction roster). He would work great with a mostly made-up move set and can reflect how the game is much better than can the Duck Hunt Dog (thought I am not saying he would be similar to Captain Falcon). What I'm saying is, as long as the character can be made into someone that is popular and stand out from the rest of the cast without being a sore thumb (like Victini), they can fit in and work as characters. That along with other reasons is why I feel Mach Rider is an underrated candidate for this game (I'll go more into detail later).
 

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I could dig some Mach Rider, I always liked him as a retro..but I think that generation is slowly fading from just being retro into obscurity and N64 is inching closer to being retro.

That being said, there aren't many N64 exclusive candidates to be considered so its probably a moot point
 
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I could dig some Mach Rider, I always liked him as a retro..but I think that generation is slowly fading from just being retro into obscurity and N64 is inching closer to being retro.

That being said, there aren't many N64 exclusive candidates to be considered so its probably a moot point
Yeah, I would say it's a moot point, thought I say the NES is moving on from retro into classic.

I can't really think of any potential contenders that are exclusive to the N64. Saki almost counts, but he had a cameo in the sequel.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Yeah, I would say it's a moot point, thought I say the NES is moving on from retro into classic.

I can't really think of any potential contenders that are exclusive to the N64. Saki almost counts, but he had a cameo in the sequel.
Mischief Makers? It was made by Treasure (who also made S&P) and published by Nintendo in America and Europe and by Enix in Japan, so I'm not sure if it counts as third party or not, and even then I don't see many people asking for characters from that game be in Smash.

Edit: Skull Kid maybe. Everyone who wants him wants MM Skull Kid, who may or may not be from OoT.
 
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