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Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Little Mac's discussion period will be starting tomorrow, but here's our schedule for after Little Mac's discussion period is over.
  • 2/23/2015 - 2/25/2015: :4samus:
  • 2/26/2015 - 2/28/2015: :4falcon:
  • 3/1/2015 - 3/3/2015: :4zss:
  • 3/4/2015 - 3/6/2015: :4ness:
  • 3/7/2015 - 3/9/2015: :4pit:
  • 3/10/2015 - 3/12/2015: :4marth:
  • 3/13/2015 - 3/15/2015: :4palutena:
 

WhiteMageBD

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:4tlink:Toon Link
  • A bit quicker attacks
  • Strong side Smash, faster Up Smash
  • Short serial attack range
  • Many,many, good projectiles can give Rosalina pressure, or KO Luma without actually hitting it.
  • Has a powerful Up aerial and Down aerial, Down aerial is a bit dangerous to use when outside of the stage.
  • Has a long range hook shot grab, can easily grab Rosalina and do combos, and has more controllable recovery.
  • Final Smash needs to lock on opponents by getting near.
:rosalina:Rosalina & Luma
  • Has a bit slower attacks.
  • Better aerial attack range
  • Aerial attacks can do more damage
  • GP can get rid of most projectile, but can cause an opening
  • Poorer controllable recovery, can easily get punished on the edge.
  • Final Smash can just activate immediately
I say it's 50:50 (Don't really take my final smash analysis as the MU analysis. I just anaylize it for my own purpose.)
need I to point out that Rosalina up smash is faster than toon links, hers comes out at frame 8, where toon link is like frame 12 or 13. Also judging by all their attacks, Rosie has more quicker atks than toon lin. I.E. faster uair, fair, down smash, down tilt.
 
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Toon Link main here. First off, just because Toon Link's projectiles can be eaten up by Rosalina's gravity doesn't mean they aren't still a threat to Rosalina, mainly the bombs. Get too careless with gravity and a good TL will bait you into using it then zair you with a bomb. Zair is overall a very important tool for TL especially in this match-up thanks to its range, speed, and ability to start combos, so keep that in mind.

Imo the match-up is 70:30 Rosalina's favor on Battlefield and 50:50 on FD. I haven't had enough experience with her on other stages to have an idea of what the general match-up ratio is, but I've heard 60:40 get thrown around a lot. The match-up definitely isn't worse than 65:35, though. It's still definitely in Rosa's favor though since TL's main kill moves (uair, fair, bair, and usmash) are all nearly impossible to land on a Rosalina who knows what they're doing, since Rosalina's aerials beat ours and projectile > fair/uair will be hard to land on Rosalina thanks to Luma.
 
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mario123007

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need I to point out that Rosalina up smash is faster than toon links, hers comes out at frame 8, where toon link is like frame 12 or 13. Also judging by all their attacks, Rosie has more quicker atks than toon lin. I.E. faster uair, fair, down smash, down tilt.
Ok, and I know that Toon Links Up Smash isn't that powerful, so Toon Link is likely be a able to KO Rosalina by using side smash or up and down aerials
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Toon Link's discussion period is now over. Therefore, here's the overall average for the Rosalina vs. Toon Link match-up, based on the combined ratios that I've recorded.

:rosalina: [57.5:42.5] :4tlink:

Rosalina apparently has a slight advantage against Toon Link. On a side note, I did put down @Dr. Artemis as 60:40, since that averages out his 70:30 and 50:50 ratio inputs.

Now it's time for the next fighter. Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the bruiser from the Bronx, Little Mac.

 

Niner

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Ah yes, Little Mac. Aside from the occasional For Glory newb, I've played a few decent ones.

Pro(salina)

  • Rosalina has amazing air game against Mac, both juggling and off-stage. If an air dodge or slip counter is baited correctly, he's dead, plain and simple.
  • Rosa is capable of stringing together a few u-airs against this middle-weight fast-faller (Little Macs tend to airdodge often, so this can either be advantageous or slippery).
  • Given platforms, Rosalina can play very patiently, even poking with Luma at times.
  • A read roll into D-Smash sends Mac at a less then desirable trajectory for him.
  • Despite super-armor, Rosa has an amazing grab game against Mac.

Pro Mac

  • Super Armor disregards everything both Rosa and Luma throws out.
  • Slip counter for easy recovery.
  • Rosa's throws do little to put Mac at a disadvantage.
  • Strong KO'ing power kills Luma and Rosa early.
  • Up-Smash reaches through most platforms (Battlefield comes to mind).
  • Star Bits (and any associated customs) do little to stop Mac.
  • Down-Smash is a great edge-guarding tool, and will either hit Rosa as she's recovering (if timed correctly) or force her to recover high.
The first stage a Rosalina will most always want to ban against Mac is FD. Two of Castle Siege's three transformations benefit him, too.
Gonna have to say
60:40.
 

mario123007

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Ah yes, Little Mac. Aside from the occasional For Glory newb, I've played a few decent ones.

Pro(salina)

  • Rosalina has amazing air game against Mac, both juggling and off-stage. If an air dodge or slip counter is baited correctly, he's dead, plain and simple.
  • Rosa is capable of stringing together a few u-airs against this middle-weight fast-faller (Little Macs tend to airdodge often, so this can either be advantageous or slippery).
  • Given platforms, Rosalina can play very patiently, even poking with Luma at times.
  • A read roll into D-Smash sends Mac at a less then desirable trajectory for him.
  • Despite super-armor, Rosa has an amazing grab game against Mac.
Pro Mac
  • Super Armor disregards everything both Rosa and Luma throws out.
  • Slip counter for easy recovery.
  • Rosa's throws do little to put Mac at a disadvantage.
  • Strong KO'ing power kills Luma and Rosa early.
  • Up-Smash reaches through most platforms (Battlefield comes to mind).
  • Star Bits (and any associated customs) do little to stop Mac.
  • Down-Smash is a great edge-guarding tool, and will either hit Rosa as she's recovering (if timed correctly) or force her to recover high.
The first stage a Rosalina will most always want to ban against Mac is FD. Two of Castle Siege's three transformations benefit him, too.
Gonna have to say
60:40.
I agree that Rosalina has a great air game against Little mac, and just send Little away from the stage horizontally can make him hard to come back.
Little mac still has some advantage,his fast and powerful punches and speed, he can easily give Rosalina high damage at close just as he stays on the ground, and yes, can easily KO Rosalina with only minor damage if he uses KO uppercut. However, a good Rosalina will know how to deal Little mac with great zoning power, and utilize Luma well.

I go with mostly with @ Niner Niner , but 65:35 because Rosalina has more advantage with air game and edge guard. Little only has speed and KO power on the stage.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Just platform camp him and he's free. I'm talking about an average match-up here of something gross like 80-20 Rosalina's favor. Stage is everything though; if you play on BF/SV/Kongo/DH/Windy Hill Zone you just win automatically (on Kongo and DH I think this MU is actually 100-0). Little Mac can kinda fight you on FD, Castle Siege, and Town & City but you still beat him there. I honestly think Little Mac is Rosalina's easiest match-up in the game; she's such a strong defensive character, and he has fundamentally the worst ability to approach her of any character since the jump button isn't a viable button for him. The main strat I see LM needing to pursue in this MU is to land the first hit and then follow it up by never being behind; that sort of strategy is never viable.

I said 80-20 to highlight just how bad I think Little Mac is, but for serious, it depends a lot on the stage list of the tournament. That's perfectly accurate at these 3 starter events since game one you can force a hard counter stage in the MU and then again on your own cp; Little Mac only gets to play a vaguely fair game on his own counterpick which means it's pretty much impossible under those rules for a dedicated Mac main to beat a dedicated Rosa main. With more starters he can avoid all of the stages that hard counter him and force something like Lylat, still bad for him since he's a bad character regardless but not nearly as flat out brutal as SV or BF so a particularly skilled Mac might be able to make a little noise and have a big disadvantage that is at least possible to overcome. Little Mac in MU charts is so bogus in general though since honestly the stage matters more to him than the opposing character unless the opposing character is another Little Mac; Rosalina is especially good at exploiting why Little Mac isn't a good character, but his ridiculous problems with stages are as present here as everywhere else.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I can accept on paper that Little Mac is at a strong disadvantage vs. Rosalina, but I have little experience against him outside of For Glory, which is a) online and b) FD only so I still struggle occasionally if they know what they're doing. That super armor is a pain in the ass.
 

Claire Diviner

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Gee, what can I say that hasn't already been said? Little Mac is a character that tends to rush down opponents, so playing defensive is obviously a must. Bait and punish is the key here. Just watch out for his grabs and counters, the latter of which they almost always go for when juggling him. Once he's off stage, it's pretty much a free stock.

Any stage with platforms are good against him, and with so many to choose from, the opponent can't exactly ban staged platforms, granting the Rosalina player more of an advantage from a counterpick standpoint. As for stages, like Final Destination, that is where you'll have the most problems, but the MU is still doable so long as you play intelligently and play to Rosalina's strengths again Little Mac.

Overall, it's more or less a free MU here, so I'll say it's :rosalina: 70:30 :4littlemac:
 

MezzoMe

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I have little experience in the match-up, yet I can give various imputs in the match-ups.
Little Mac has super armor and slip counter to eat through several spacing attempts and can take a stock very early fron Rosalina
That said, I think that he is a pretty underrated character, but this match-up just isn't for him.
Neutral:
Back to the counter and super armor, Rosalina can Lunar Land her aerials in order to make any of his options, being it using super armor and rolling unsafe because of Rosalina being free in that moment, with grab being unuseable for obvious reasons, jab and the likes other fast attacks of him clash with Luma and expose him, I don't think I have to explain why Jolt Haymaker and Straight Lunge are not an option, as such, he's limited to rolling away wich is just the least punishable of his options, sidestepping is his only actually safe option, and not because of frame data but because it cannot be punished on reaction, in that case be careful because his jab comes out in frame one, as such you cannot frametrap his side step, you need a proper read for punishing it, otherwise start another Lunar Landing. His only truly safe options are perfect pivot, dance trotting or countering, as such he will at best reset the situation and deal with another Lunar Landing, at worst lose space in the first two cases, and in the third he 'll easily let Rosalina to change space control( if he is grounded he has invincibility frames while countering so it can't be punished, but he cannot trigger it on reaction but needs to read Rosalina, so you can Lunar Land another aerial and grab him instead).
The best aerial to Lunar Land from my experience is the Fair because of his upward trajectory.
This is about the neutral, just before jumping to other situations let's get everything straight:
Mac can Dash Attack, perfect pivot jab and something else to hit Rosalina before Rosalina hits the ground on reaction, punishing the hop.
However, Rosalina can short hop retreating Dair to prevent him to before rushing him with the Lunar Land.
He can counter the afermentioned Dair if done at short hop height, but will miss the attack if used at most heights, but he could take away Luma, so don't get too predictable with them and mix it up with fastfallen lunar landed empty hops.
In any case, Rosalina has a slight advantage in neutral and she is the factor determining how the neutral will become, Mac has to respect her actions everytime in order to gain the lead, though she isn't completely safe in neutral, making the neutral a situation based on mindgames, but with her fullhopped Dair, though she can hardly ever Lunar Land safely, Little Mac has a very hard time punishing it, meaning that the zone lost will hardly ever be taken back from Mac.
On a side note, launching Luma out in neutral isn't the best option at all.
Juggling:
Little Mac's air speed is faster than Rosalina's, so you'll need to fastfall and chase him to the ground before delivering the hit. In the air Little Mac has literally only two options in the air: air dodgge and counter. There could be Nair there since it comes out in frame two but his range is awful, so I don't think that at this point of the metagame anyone falls for that anymore, so I don't consider that as a valid option.
His air dodge has 15 frame airdodge as opposed to 22 every other character has, yet it's still easily punishable, though your USmash might be countered, I'm not entirely sure, it might not. Anyway, about air juggling, counter cannot be used against a well spaced Uair and is most likely to get punished both with and without the counter being triggered as long as you aren't too close to him, in the first case he will eat a Bair, at that point fastfall and continue the chase, leaving an air-dodge as his only option, that can be punished on reaction if you refuse to attack and mix a delayed Uair, leaving him vulnerable to the close hitbox of the Duo's Uair, wich is strongher than the farther one.
But since we cannot use the strongest hitbox of Uair without mixing up and taking the risk of a slip counter how can we safely K.O. him?
You can by spacing yourself so that by Shooting Luma, he'll end up under Little Mac, you must be grounded while Luma is slighty above the ground but not too much and facing Rosalina(such as by shorthopping and immediately fastfalling, then using the Neutral B before landing and FTilting to make Luma Face Rosalina)use the Uair if he continues to fall through Luma, in that case:

  1. If he airdodges Dair him with the landing lag;
  2. If he counters hit him with Rosa's USmash.
  3. Aerial attacks get outprioritized
If he tries to go away then Bair him, then:

  1. If he airdodges, FSmash him with Luma, tilted downward
  2. If he counters, FSmash with Rosalina
  3. Aerials get outprioritized
If he goes toward Rosalina, the situation is basically a replicate of the ground juggling.
While being juggled the situation is polarizer in Rosalina's favor, not only she can safely send out Luma, but she has an array of safe tools to rack damage and K.O.ing, with several mix-ups to hit Little Mac even harder, the only way for Little Mac to avoid the death and returning to neutral is through repeated reads.
Edgeguarding:
You might get an edgeguarding situation if he has the stock lead and you need to end the stock quickly, you can set-up it with the afermentioned juggling pressure since barring the Uair and the USmash, every options ffor K.O.ing after a juggle don't launch Little Mac straightly upward, and will very often send the opponent offstage.
If in neutral heclashes against a Lunar Landing, or punish a roll/sidestep/counter/whatever he uses(punish a roll outward with boost grab), you can FThrow, DSmash, DTilt, FTilt and BThrow him in order to have him offstage.
If Little Mac recovers high, of course, you can juste juggle him to death, but if you need to take a stock early you can Fair/Bair him(you can also abuse the autolink angle of the Fair in order to drag him far offstage before the attack launches him), but they can be countered or air dodged.
If he recovers at ledge height via Jolt Haymaker you can Bair him with ease(in case you didn't know, his Side B loses his invincibility if aerial).
If he recovers below the ledge position your self(with perfect pivots if necessary) and charge a FSmash(you may need to tilt it down). His Tornado Uppecut cannot grab the ledge while the attack is going, but only after he enters the helpless state, as such you can just wait for him to go near the ledge and hit him.
As well, if he is close to the ledge and can counter to recover, just send Luma there, so that he'll eat a F/DSmash if he counters the Luma's hit, I would suggest to use the Jab cancelling so that he'll eventually be easily trapped in a rapid jab, eat Rosa's FSmash, airdodge through the Ledge and be vulnerable to a FSmash intercept(you may need to reposition yourself).
While edgeguarding Rosalina can convert a high edgeguard with a juggle, otherwise she can easily edgeguard him easily and without chance of being countered, as such the situation is nearly broken.

Being juggled:
The only way Little Mac can actually juggle her if she is in the air is by using his Up B, if he tries to ground juggle she can space him out with a Dair like she does in neutral (with the difference that it cannot be countered because of her being too high).
Little Mac has a single unsafe move to really capitalize on juggling, and Rosalina needs to be at a certain height, as such, he gets a single, useable yet punishable action based on mix-ups.
Recovering:
Trying to recover high with Launch Star is easily punishable so it's advisable to always sweetspot the ledge and using Rosalina's floatiness to be unpredictable while doing so. In order to not take a DSmash. If you menage to do it, usually a ledge jump Dair is your best option, though he can Tornado Uppercut in some cases (though it's hard for him to bypass the Dair) he may USmash but I'm pretty sure he can't.
Little Mac is at an advantage while edgeguarding, having a safe move to edgeguard her, and she needs to mix-up to dodge it, after sweetspotting the ledge, though, it'll be hard fo Little Mac to intercept her.
What if Luma dies?
Little Mac is definitely at an advantage without Luma, since we can no longer pressure him in neutral, pressure him for a K.O. After being juggled, escape the juggling close to the ground safely, finally guard breaking and to a lesser extent edgeguarding come at no easy task.
However, he has no safe way of getting rid of Luma safely, he'll always take some sort of punish for hitting Luma, and is likely to end a stock before Luma dies, unless he falls into a blast line, something that is hardly ever going to happen since he can hardly ever gain space without reading Rosalina, so Luma will most likely hit the ground.

What about the stages?
I would suggest to ban Final Destination ASAP since that is the legal stage where this match-up is most even, though what I wrote before, you may have noticed, didn't take in account platforms, so the match-up is "even" relatively to other stages where you can just platform camp 25/24h with Dair, the most unpredictable way of Little Mac for hitting you is with his Up B, so you can just hold shield until it breaks.
He has no way of reaching any of the platforms on Duck Hunt without expending his Up B if stalling wasn't banned and any Little Mac wouldn't ban the stage as soon as they can. If you are winning a set, you may gentleman to walk-offs, since they are the stage where Little Mac performs better, so you can try a fight there if you need some hard training, Wii Fit is the best for this.
Speaking of walk-offs, yes, he can use those of Castle Siege, especially those in the middle of trasformation, but good luck at using those of the second trasformation against the platform camping.

What about the customs?
:rosalina:

Luma Shot vs. Luma Warp
Luma Warp can set up for pressure after juggling to take a stock more easily compared to Luma Shot, but Luma Shot can massively pressure Little Mac's edge options if spaced correctly, but that's not necessary for edgeguarding Little Mac.
Floaty Star Bit vs. Shooting Star Bit
Shooting Star Bits can be powershielded on reacttion if expected and, in some cases, he can dash counter them. On the other hand, Little Mac has hard time in bypassing a Floaty Star Bit, being forced to use Dash Counter.
Guardian Luma
Simply Little Mac has no projectiles or items, but you shouldn't use this move too much anyway.
So I would suggest the 2-2-1-3 set.
:4littlemac::4wiremac:
Neutral B
All of his variations are considered worthless, but apparently his Side B 2 can help him very slighty in recoverying.
Side B
I do have neither of the customs but from what I understood he has another super armor tool, but when using it to counter Lunar Landing you'll need to sidestep instead of shielding it. He can use it against any variation of the star bits, but gets more predictable against floaty star bits.
Up B
Apparently both customs are considered worthless, and they are, just don't get surprised if you fight one with them.
Down B:
Compact counter will be hard to punish when trying to get a kill after juggling or after recoverying, however it won't help nearly at all against the Dair, in neutral, and doesn't help his recovery at all, hampers his capacity to go against Floaty Star Bits.
Dash Counter makes Rosalina and Mac swap their position if he uses it against Lunar Landing, making it unable to be used to punish it at close range, it also helps against Floaty Star Bits and for recoverying and you need a different positioning while pressuring after a juggling.

Recapping everything:
Pros:

  • The neutral
  • Edgeguarding
  • Juggling
  • Very rare to lose Luma before losing a stock
  • While being edgeguarded and juggled, she is at a less drastic disadvantage than she should...
Cons:
  • ...but she is disadvantaged nevertheless
  • If she loses Luma everything becomes harder.
Overall with and without customs I would rate this match-up :rosalina:70:30:4littlemac: but I need some confirmation about what I said, especially for what matters customs, I also didn't understand if the grounded version of Slip Counter has invincibility during the entire counterattack animation or until the hitbox ends.
 
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Rosalina _88

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I'm far from a competitive player in terms of skill, but I feel like some of you guys are discrediting Mac too quickly. A smart, dedicated Mac player can be a real pain to deal with, especially on FD. Mac's sheer speed, KO power, abundant super armor, and ability to put Luma away so quickly are enough to make him a threat. I do think the match-up is in Rosie's favor, but 80:20 seems a bit extreme. I won't put a number to it myself because I don't feel like I should.
 
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Princess_Emilu

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I'm still kind of new to all of this, but here goes.

Pros.
-Aerials. Roaslina easily beats Mac in the air
-Roaslina has a ton of offensive options when facing Little Mac
-She's also really good at avoiding him
-Luma makes for a really good meatshield

Cons.
-Little Mac can KO Rosalina at pretty low percentages
-Without Luma, one is forced to play almost exclusively defensively
-Starbits and Grav. Pull are pretty much worthless in this match up


I've only played against Little Mac in For Glory, but I feel as though its safe to say the match up is in Rosalina's favor. I've found that as long as Luma is out, Little Mac is really easy to overwhelm. It's been said above, but its worth repeating- Little Macs usually play offensively, and Rosalina has a great defense. I've found that due to Rosalina's floatiness, one can often simply jump right over him and poke with dair/fair.

Once you get Little Mac in the air, he's pretty easy to KO, you just have to watch out for a slip counter. Most of his aerials are slow and really short ranged, especially compared with Rosalina's arsenal. However, there is a small element of 'if' here- IF you can get him into the air. The only times I've had trouble with Little Mac are when he is played more defensively. I feel as though the ground-game favors Little Mac a lot. Even a few pokes from him will rack up damage, and he can start to KO pretty early, even without KO Punch. I honestly don't remember the exact percent, but I was once KOed by his up smash at around.... 40-50 percent? Seriously thought I was playing a re-skinned Lucario or something. Even a small mistake can lead to losing an early stock.

In conclusion, I would say that a good Little Mac might make the match more tedious for Rosalina, but she has a clear advantage. He get's a little bit 'better' on FD stages if he stays on the ground and forces Rosalina to fight there, but if Rosalina plays smart and avoids those silly smashes, she'll win most of the time.

I'd put the odds at 70:30 in Rosalina's favor. But what do I know, I'm no pro~ :rosalina:
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Little Mac's discussion period is now over. As such, I've added up all the ratio inputs for the Rosalina vs. Little Mac match-up to get an average.

:rosalina: [69:31] :4littlemac:

Rosalina basically has the upper hand in this match-up.

Now, it's time to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Samus.

 

mario123007

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Samus:
A lot handy projectiles like Link, and a good recovery.
Powerful down aerial.
Long distance roll dodge.
Long grab like Link.
Rosalina:
Better attack range.
GP can deflect projectiles.
Awesome aerial combo.
Powerful up Smash when Luma is around.

I say it's 50:50
 

HeroMystic

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Gonna keep this short and concise.

This is one MU where Samus will be forced to use CQC due to Rosalina's GP. That said, Rosie's neutrals outside of jabs and grabs won't bother Samus much. Her weight and floatiness helps her avoid U-air combos and Samus has a good amount of combos on Rosie herself, while at the same time she can dispatch Luma with her projectiles or with gradual damage over time. Samus has a lot of range on her tilts and dash attack, and Samus has a distinct advantage whenever Luma is gone since Z-air and U-Smash can easily hit her due to her height. Edgeguarding Rosie is also very key for Samus as well.

That said, Rosalina does have GP, and that's the main reason why Rosie has the advantage in neutral. The pressure is on Samus to do something, and Rosie can easily maintain stage control with GP and Luma pressuring Samus. As long as Rosie keeps steady maintenance on Luma, Samus will be kept on the backfoot.

This is one of Samus' easier Top Tier MU, but GP makes that much of a difference.

60:40 Rosalina. Arguable for 55:45 but I'll need to wait for input from more experienced Samus mains.
 

DungeonMaster

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I find this matchup difficult and I use a lot of CQC in my samus gameplay.
Rosa is both floaty and very light, basically designed to avoid combos.
I'm still intuitively unfamiliar with Rosa's hitboxes and hurboxes, sometimes hitting that dress is a whiff (particularly in the air) and sometimes the luma/galaxy catch me when I was sure I was safe.
Killing off the luma is not a problem, Samus actually hits quite hard as a heavyweight and pretty much any move she tosses out can send luma into tumbling animation.
Right now I'm averaging about 60:40. I feel it will certainly creep up overtime closer to even with more XP in the matchup, but I regardless feel Rosa will always have an advantage overall.
 
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Xygonn

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I'm trying to make time to make it to a real life tournament but in the mean time I can give my for glory impressions (feel free to wait for ChoZoX or Xyro to show up).

I think the matchup is pretty close. Luma is pretty easy for Samus to kill with a super missiles and charge shot. I basically don't go after Rosalina until I've killed Luma. Once luma is dead, I'm probably not even using projectiles except as a mixup.

Like it has already been pointed out, Rosalina is one of the few characters Samus can actually hit grounded with Usmash, which is pretty good for racking up damage (18% on a full hit), but pretty terrible for killing with. Additionally Rosalina is relatively easy to shield poke with Uair.

Rosalina is one of the few characters than can't outfall Samus. This makes UpB go from a pretty good move to a really great move against you guys because it's hard for you to punish us for missing with it in the air. I've killed Rosalina's at like 65% with this move. Pretty soon it's easy to bait the air dodge and still hit the attack. I have to think this is one of the rougher moves for you guys to deal with. In fact, my objective after I kill Luma is to put Rosalina in the air because she has very little kill and damage potential in the air (though OK disjointed hitboxes). We basiacally have faster and stronger moves than you do in the air. While on the ground you have faster frames than Samus on basically everything but jab 1. You have stupidly good dsmash and dtilt. You guys are too hard to gimp with your ridiculous UpB that is nonlinear and goes super far. I'd rather just punish the landing or the edge get up because you guys have pretty bad get up options.

One thing you guys definitely have going for you is that your dash attack starts with a duck that goes under missiles and super missiles. Against a lot of the cast interrupting a dash with missiles is pretty effective. Not really true against Rosalina.

If I can kill luma, I feel like I have the advantage. But if you have luma, you have the advantage. Very close to 50/50 overall because luma isn't too hard to for samus to kill.
 

9Tales

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I know a Samus player who's better than me. And I've been playing Samus a lot myself since elementry school and Smash64 :D Samus is a legit boss (in this game XD)

Rosalina has some nice options at her disposal though. Both of Samus's projectiles are fast enough and recoiled enough that you can rely on Gravity to "neutralize" them and essentially "force" them to only be used for close range mix up. And even then if you have Luma he usually tanks the hit for you, lol. I actually chuckle sometimes when Luma eats a Charge Beam from mid stage and lives cause it usually results in Rosalina getting in a free dash attack, grab, or even SoRo smash.

Samus bair is devastating. And Roaslina's Nair (Luma aided) is kind of hard for Samus to deal with. Like with most characters "who wins in the air?" is dependent on how people got there since Rosalina juggles like a pro and Samus does a good job too. And that's kind of exacerbated even more in this matchup by the fact that both players are REALLY floaty (some of their biggest downfalls) So basically both characters are good at taking advantage of putting the other one in the air.

Samus's Screw attack recover it sort of like a truck, like even though it tends to have just the one predictable arc of return it has so much priority and power that it just kind of just mows through gimp attempts. For my part I've never successfully beat it with a dair and that's usually just because I'm too scared to even try it XD The closest thing I've ever accomplished is once I positioned myself to the right of the screw attack and staged spiked Samus with a well spaced (Luma aided) bair.
BUT because Samus's recover is pretty predictable, and Rosalina's aerial have SO much disjoint (I am pretty sure some one with more skill than me can beat or at least cancel Screw Attack with dair), and because she has the liberty to go way deeper than Samus I think Rosalina has the offstage advantage at high levels of play.

When Luma's gone, SoRo give up most of her ability to deal with neutral game aerials, has too little KO power, and suddenly has to be like 50% more concerned about close range Charge Shot mixups. On the contrary she has a pretty stellar advantage when Luma's around. Basically all of Rosalina's standard KO options work great on Samus. In the end I think this one is a close 55:45
 

HeroMystic

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Rosalina's U-air and D-air are actually very dangerous. Rosie's U-air is notorious for killing at very early percents, especially with rage. Samus survives it better than most because of her high weight and floatiness. D-air is less dangerous but if Samus is caught by it she's getting spiked. Samus wants to mix up her recovery to avoid that, which is possible thanks to her Z-air tether.

Also, Samus' edgeguarding is super legit on Rosie. While her Up-B is fast and goes far, it has no hitbox, meaning everything in Samus' toolkit is free game including charged shot. You can Z-air to force her to recover low then go for D-air or F-air, or you can mindgame a Charged Shot.
 

Xygonn

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Rosalina's U-air and D-air are actually very dangerous. Rosie's U-air is notorious for killing at very early percents, especially with rage. Samus survives it better than most because of her high weight and floatiness. D-air is less dangerous but if Samus is caught by it she's getting spiked. Samus wants to mix up her recovery to avoid that, which is possible thanks to her Z-air tether.

Also, Samus' edgeguarding is super legit on Rosie. While her Up-B is fast and goes far, it has no hitbox, meaning everything in Samus' toolkit is free game including charged shot. You can Z-air to force her to recover low then go for D-air or F-air, or you can mindgame a Charged Shot.
Bombs and bomb jumps also help mix up recovery. I actually think Samus has one of the less predictable recoveries.

I agree samus can still edgeguard, but I'm not gonna get any gimp kills with Zair against roslina (basically it's just harassment damage and stage control). Punishing UpB is great. I'm all for it, but there is no way to sort of push Rosalina away from the stage after her second jump at low percents and watch her tumble helplessly to her death like there are against many other cast members.
 

9Tales

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Yeah I prolly under-sell Samus's offstage game a little, but I still think advantage goes to Rosalina. Lack of hitbox(es) on her up special is 1 of Rosalina's only 2 off stage flaws imo (the other being that most of the cast can connect down tilts on her before she connects with the ledge.) Almost every character in the game has free rain on her Launch star if they read the arch/ timing.

In the world of customs I always opt for the Luanch Star Attack Up Special. you don't sacrifice THAT much range (you can still go deep) and it pseudo alleviates both those issues.
 

Hapajin

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I find good Rosalinas very tricky to fight as Samus.
Samus pros
-semi decent recovery against Rosa
-Zair and f-tilt for good spacing
-not too hard to kill Luma or put it in tumble animation
- big target for Samus to hit with her small hitboxes

Rosa pros
-better range/power on most CQC attacks, especially aerial ones
-Luma+gravity pull makes landing charge shot a huge chore, which is one of Samus' decent killing moves
-is good at killing vertically: add that up with Samus' floatiness and she's not too hard for Rosa to kill.

Overall, I find Rosalina far superior in close range and is able to negate Samus' long range. Samus has a decent mid-range game with Zair and Ftilt, but Luma helps Rosalina overcome this by extending her hitboxes, making all different ranges dangerous for Samus to fight at.

I'd put this match at 70-30
 
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HeroMystic

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I agree samus can still edgeguard, but I'm not gonna get any gimp kills with Zair against roslina (basically it's just harassment damage and stage control). Punishing UpB is great. I'm all for it, but there is no way to sort of push Rosalina away from the stage after her second jump at low percents and watch her tumble helplessly to her death like there are against many other cast members.
Gimping isn't the point of edgeguarding Rosalina, but rather getting early kills as a result of that. Charged Shot and B-air killing Rosie @~70% or less is pretty tastey.

No one except Mario and Doc are gonna be gimping Rosalina.
 

Jester Kirby

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Spamus is interesting. You can force her to approach ofc thanks to down B so you don't really have to worry about her projectile spam that gives other characters trouble. Her zair is a pretty solid spacing tool against us and can mess with luma but you shouldn't have too much trouble once your past that. Luma can face tank a projectile if you feel the need to rush in. (And you're heartless to your children) Jab her to your heart's content. Having luma a few jumps out is a nice range to fight samus at. If you get too close be careful, her Up-B comes out fast and can kill. Juggle the heck out of her once you get her in the air, she doesn't have great answers to our up-air. Be EXTREMELY careful when recovering, her spike is solid. Mix it up, keep her guessing. The shoe can be placed on the other foot too, samus likes to recover low so drop that halo. Just don't jump out there too early b/c she can stall with her down-b and if you're not careful youll end up in a bad spot.

Overall this MU isn't bad. Samus has some decently quick ground moves to watch out for at close range and pretty good kill power but rosalina beats her out in most situations. She also can't camp us if we have the % adv so that's extremely nice.

65:35. Id put it more in our favor but a good samus can fight up close and will spike your recovery with a half decent read.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Samus's discussion period is now over, so here's the overall ratio average that I've gotten for the Rosalina vs. Samus match-up.

:rosalina: [59:41] :4samus:

Sweet old Rosie has a slight advantage for this match-up.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the legendary F-Zero pilot himself, Captain Falcon.

 

mario123007

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Captain Falcon can just do many fast and awesome combos, Rosalina may not even stand a chance if she got juggled by Captain Falcon. The only weak point of Captain Falcon might just be lack of projectiles and long attack range. If Rosalina can do a good zoning with Luma, she can do some damage on Captain Falcon without getting near him.
I give 50:50 again.
 

9Tales

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One time I was messing around in the options menu. I turned down music/ sound effect and I vamped up voices to max levels. Later while playing against a Captain Falcon I could SWEAR I heard this dialogue:

C.Falcon: Even though I’m on the other side of the stage I could basically unload all my moves on you in less than 2 seconds.
Rosalina: uhh….
C.Falcon: here I GoooooooooO!!!!!!!
Rosalina: AAAAAAAAAH T.T
C.Falcon: congrats getting your shield up in time. Of course your little star buddy didn’t make it >: ) maybe next time I'll grab instead... maybe >: p
Rosalina: *sobbing hysterically* (because she’s still processing what just happened and also recognizing she’s gonna have to go through it again in another 2 seconds.)


The dude I play this game with the most out of everyone mains Captain Falcon. Rosalina might be an excellent Zoner but C.Falcon is a ridiculous zone breaker. When I play this matchup is when I become extremely aware of how important mix ups are. Literally the difference between guessing dash attack and guess dash grab can make or break an entire stock for you.

Undoubtedly one of Roslaina’s rougher matchups I put this one at 45:55
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I think this MU is slightly in Rosalina's favor. I think the MU is her favor because she edgeguards him pretty well. Falcon has a lot of strong tools that gives Rosalina trouble. You're going to want to be extremely careful with how you approach how you recover and your air dodges. The MU can change really quickly because of knees and his dair. If you avoid those yoi should have him.

55:45
 
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ChikoLad

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Captain Falcon is really, really in our favour.

Easy to gimp, has difficulty dealing with our defenses and Luma, readable attacks, can't combo us very well, etc.

Much like Bowser, his only strength is potential early KOs (to a much lesser extent than Bowser though), but even against really good Falcons, my Rosalina tends to beat them.

Captain Falcon excels when he can rushdown characters, but isn't great in any other case. He can't rush down Rosalina, so he is forced to play extremely carefully, and Captain Falcon just isn't good at that. One wrong move and he's done, ESPECIALLY off stage.

80:20 in our favour.
 

9Tales

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.... readable attacks, can't combo us very well, etc.

Much like Bowser, his only strength is potential early KOs (to a much lesser extent than Bowser though), but even against really good Falcons, my Rosalina tends to beat them.

Captain Falcon excels when he can rushdown characters, but isn't great in any other case. He can't rush down Rosalina, so he is forced to play extremely carefully, and Captain Falcon just isn't good at that...
I don't usually want to dispute someone's analysis, but..... I'm not sure you're talking about Captain Falcon when you say thing's like "Can't combo very well" or "he can't rush down Rosalina" or give this an 80:20 rating. My guess is you haven't been playing good Captain Falcons or at best you've played good Captain Falcons that don't know this MU/ how to handle Luma. Falcon has exactly the right mix ups to rush down Rosalina and the vast majority of his approach moves are potent Luma killers which heavily decentivizes using shield, making his approach even easier. he also has a really solid combo game on everyone, but especially characters like Rosalina who are big and fall slowly. One down throw automatically mean you're getting hit my 2 up airs and depending on how you react and what he reads can easily be more 2 more up airs or a nair and a knee. He has plenty of great great combos not initiated by down throw too and it's not that unlikely that they can directly chain into a KO. With the exception of down tilt you literally can't throw out any move safely against this guy (he has the speed to punish end lag on basically everything). Even just putting out a jab string (which thwarts most characters) doesn't work because he can jump it and give you a solid bair during just the time it takes for jab to cool down.

One thing I will say is having Lunar Landing nailed is really important in this match up because Captain Falcon is REALLY good at taking advantage of people as they land. Also while he does have all the tools to break your defense you have the tools to thwart his attacks too if you guess right. So it's a very heavy mix up and kind of stressful guessing game for him the same way it is for us.

I definitely wouldn't want to argue with someone who thought this match up was in Rosalina's favor but close to 50:50. 80:20 is... really pushing it.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Let's try not to argue over our ratio inputs.

Anyway, I will say that while Captain Falcon does have the raw power to send Rosalina packing, he doesn't exactly have a lot of multi-hit moves that he can use without involving customizations. This means that Captain Falcon has to tread carefully with his direct attack options, or else Rosalina will punish him right back. The Luma is also a threat to Captain Falcon, since it can mess up most of Captain Falcon's approaches, and even edge-guard him if he's above any ledges.

Basically, Captain Falcon's dilemma is similar to that of Ganondorf's, but at least the one thing that does work in Captain Falcon's favor is his higher mobility on the ground, and in the air. As such, he can potentially catch Rosalina off-guard by doing a dash grab, instead of a dash attack.

Likewise, if Captain Falcon manages to send the Luma packing, he can catch up to Rosalina, making it very hard for her to regroup.
 

ChikoLad

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I don't usually want to dispute someone's analysis, but..... I'm not sure you're talking about Captain Falcon when you say thing's like "Can't combo very well" or "he can't rush down Rosalina" or give this an 80:20 rating. My guess is you haven't been playing good Captain Falcons or at best you've played good Captain Falcons that don't know this MU/ how to handle Luma. Falcon has exactly the right mix ups to rush down Rosalina and the vast majority of his approach moves are potent Luma killers which heavily decentivizes using shield, making his approach even easier. he also has a really solid combo game on everyone, but especially characters like Rosalina who are big and fall slowly. One down throw automatically mean you're getting hit my 2 up airs and depending on how you react and what he reads can easily be more 2 more up airs or a nair and a knee. He has plenty of great great combos not initiated by down throw too and it's not that unlikely that they can directly chain into a KO. With the exception of down tilt you literally can't throw out any move safely against this guy (he has the speed to punish end lag on basically everything). Even just putting out a jab string (which thwarts most characters) doesn't work because he can jump it and give you a solid bair during just the time it takes for jab to cool down.

One thing I will say is having Lunar Landing nailed is really important in this match up because Captain Falcon is REALLY good at taking advantage of people as they land. Also while he does have all the tools to break your defense you have the tools to thwart his attacks too if you guess right. So it's a very heavy mix up and kind of stressful guessing game for him the same way it is for us.

I definitely wouldn't want to argue with someone who thought this match up was in Rosalina's favor but close to 50:50. 80:20 is... really pushing it.
I think your problem is that you rely far too much on Luma being close to you and not knowing how to use him as a team-mate and not just a move disjoint.

In fact, that's something I know is the case with a lot of Rosalina players, which is why I rarely discuss her competitively (even though I play her competitively).

If I, a person who rarely gets to play Smash but plays a lot of good Captain Falcons, can still dominate Captain Falcons, and you have a lot of trouble, then it's clearly the fault of you relying way too much on Luma and not being good at escaping combos (as evidenced by your post). You have a bad MU against Captain Falcon, not Rosalina.

Heck, one really good Captain Falcon player who has even provided a guide for the character, was even talking about how he finds it difficult to combo a good Rosalina, and can't play against her in a way he would like, on this very sub-forum. He described it as "fighting Rosalina forces other characters to play like a Brawl character".

Brawl Captain Falcon wasn't a very great fighter. Let that sink in.
 
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9Tales

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Let's try not to argue over our ratio inputs.
Are we not supposed to? I thought the purpose of the thread was to collect all those MU ratios. Shouldn't we be able to argue if we think someone is drastically off? Otherwise it would negatively impact the accuracy of the ratio we display.

I think your problem is that you rely far too much on Luma being close to you and not knowing how to use him as a team-mate and not just a move disjoint.

In fact, that's something I know is the case with a lot of Rosalina players, which is why I rarely discuss her competitively (even though I play her competitively).

If I, a person who rarely gets to play Smash but plays a lot of good Captain Falcons, can still dominate Captain Falcons, and you have a lot of trouble, then it's clearly the fault of you relying way too much on Luma and not being good at escaping combos (as evidenced by your post). You have a bad MU against Captain Falcon, not Rosalina.

Heck, one really good Captain Falcon player who has even provided a guide for the character, was even talking about how he finds it difficult to combo a good Rosalina, and can't play against her in a way he would like, on this very sub-forum. He described it as "fighting Rosalina forces other characters to play like a Brawl character".

Brawl Captain Falcon wasn't a very great fighter. Let that sink in.
This is also the first time I've ever heard someone try to claim Captain Falcon being bad at combos. But I kind of feel like this degraded into "I'm better than you at this game so you don't know what you're talking about" the majority of your argument is that i suck if I think Falcon is good. There's no way to quantify the skill of the Falcons we face against our own... but... just based on my own experience it's really coming off to me like you haven't fought good Captain Falcons... or like maybe you're making a joke or something and I'm not catching on?... I just don't see serious top players giving such a skewed match up ratio as 80:20. For the sake of my own curiosity I would like to know what about my post made you think I spend too much time as Rosaluma? I'm totally up for putting some critical thought into what might make me suck if I do XD
 

ChikoLad

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This is also the first time I've ever heard someone try to claim Captain Falcon being bad at combos. But I kind of feel like this degraded into "I'm better than you at this game so you don't know what you're talking about" the majority of your argument is that i suck if I think Falcon is good. There's no way to quantify the skill of the Falcons we face against our own... but... just based on my own experience it's really coming off to me like you haven't fought good Captain Falcons... or like maybe you're making a joke or something and I'm not catching on?... I just don't see serious top players giving such a skewed match up ratio as 80:20. For the sake of my own curiosity I would like to know what about my post made you think I spend too much time as Rosaluma? I'm totally up for putting some critical thought into what might make me suck if I do XD
When did I say Captain Falcon was bad at combos?

I didn't say I was better than you at the game, I said that it is your fault you are having trouble with Captain Falcon, not Rosalina & Luma's. The MU is very much in our favour.

And I have fought excellent Captain Falcons (in fact the Falcon mains I know are probably the best players I have personally played), but he is very limited against Rosalina when you know how to exploit him, as I laid out.

Don't assume that the only reason I am giving my ratio is because I haven't played any good Falcons. That is just you displaying your own egoism and frankly, that just is not productive.

Are we not supposed to? I thought the purpose of the thread was to collect all those MU ratios. Shouldn't we be able to argue if we think someone is drastically off? Otherwise it would negatively impact the accuracy of the ratio we display.
This thread isn't a reliable source as it is, as it is not based on objective data and analysis. So there is literally no point in arguing with my MU rating no matter how much you can't comprehend it. A lot of the MUs thus far are very inaccurately discussed, because most Rosalina players stopped trying to innovate their playstyles, and as a result, the public's interpretation of how she plays, a long time ago.
 
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WhiteMageBD

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55:45 in Rosa favor, she can zone him extremely well and get some really easy gimps through edge guards because if you hit him with a meteor smash dair even at 25%, he is dead. Falcon has to play better and get some good reads in order to win. I beat strong falcons left and right through online and some fun tournaments because I find him easy and I play with him sometimes to.
 
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