Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[CatRaccoonBL]

I think it is decently even. 55:45 rosalina's favor.

Rosalina has lot of ways of keeping Captain Falcon away with Luma. Captain Falcon has no projectile so he has to come to Rosalina. It helps to to take advantage of this. Rosalina n-air and b-air are pretty good at keeping them at bay to their hitboxes and speed. Up-tilt and up air are great for when he is above you as Captain Falcon doesn't have much options at that point. Be careful of a down special though.

She can also gimp him with a properly timed spike, or just using Luma smartly off the edge in general.

At the same time, Captian Falcon has great combo potential. His dash grabbed is pretty potent and should be feared if he gets a Knee of justice in. You also have to play really smart when above Captain Falcon as his up-aerials are pretty good towards her. due to their speed, damage, and combo ability. His down special is also great for getting rid of Luma.

He has a spike of it's own, but Rosalina's launch star is much better of a recovery and (depending on the stage), she can even trick the opposing captain falcon to trying to spike in the wrong area by launching onto the stage. Captain falcon can only go one place, so she outranks him in that aspect.

Overall, Rosalina has the better tools, but Captain Falcon can pull a victory very easily if you mess up or misread.

 

[HeroMystic]

Captain Falcon is really, really in our favour.

Easy to gimp, has difficulty dealing with our defenses and Luma, readable attacks, can't combo us very well, etc.

Much like Bowser, his only strength is potential early KOs (to a much lesser extent than Bowser though), but even against really good Falcons, my Rosalina tends to beat them.

Captain Falcon excels when he can rushdown characters, but isn't great in any other case. He can't rush down Rosalina, so he is forced to play extremely carefully, and Captain Falcon just isn't good at that. One wrong move and he's done, ESPECIALLY off stage.

80:20 in our favour.

There are very few 80:20's in this game.

You'll have to be extremely convincing that Falcon vs Rosalina is one of them. So far you haven't described anything that is the case.

 

[Parcheesy]

Sorry I stopped replying to the thread. It's easy to lose track of it once you stop getting reminders.

Going to go with 65-35 for this one, in Rosalina's favor. It's bad for Falcon, especially offstage, but he's still a good character with a healthy grab game, and enough mixups that he should be getting kills as reliably onstage as Rosalina gets them offstage.

 

[ChikoLad]

There are very few 80:20's in this game.

You'll have to be extremely convincing that Falcon vs Rosalina is one of them. So far you haven't described anything that is the case.

There may be very few, but I definitely feel this is one of them.

 

[DanGR]

I used to think this was a great matchup for us, but Falcon just gets too much reward off hits, and he has an easy time getting past our defenses. Additionally, all of his attacks either send Luma off-stage or set up for an easy followup to knock him off-stage. From there it's a blood bath, and like in a lot matchups there's really not much Rosalina can do without Luma. Falcon has several 50:50 kill setups that either kill or yield free setups into additional 50:50s that can end your stock. I'm hopeful that with perfect DI and potentially consistent Luma interrupts, we might be able to safely get back to neutral without being forced to flip a coin for our stock.

Honestly, I'm really lost in finding any kind of zoning option that prevents him from getting in on us. And once he's in, the juggle traps are a headache. Anyone here -know- of things that work in neutral? (I'm not interested in speculation)

 

[Castell]

Throwing out jabs in neutral stops almost everything except Falcon Kick and Dash Attack. With customs on then we can really harass Falcon with Shooting Star Bits. Falcon's speed and kill power is a headache, I personally think he's one of the best Luma killers in the game. Rosa's moves come out slower than Falcon's but Luma's are even faster. I rely a lot of Luma Landing nairs and bairs to get in, grab and juggle Falcon to hell or edgeguard him for the kill. This is still a really dangerous match up as absolutely everything Falcon has can disrupt Rosalina and Luma and almost everything he has kills us.
50:50

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Captain Falcon's discussion period is now over. Therefore, here's the overall ratio average that I've gotten after adding up all the ratio inputs for the Rosalina vs. Captain Falcon match-up.

[57:43]

Rosalina has a slight advantage for this match-up.

Next up, it's time to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Zero Suit Samus.

 

[9Tales]

Zero Suit is another 45:55 MU imo.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Former ZSS main/ZSS secondary here, I'm surprised nobody has given input yet XD

I don't really know much about ZSS vs Rosa but here's what I know so far (feel free to correct):

-Neutral-B cripples Luma so Luma Shot shouldn't be used in this MU
-Rosa's recovery has no hitbox and is predictable, so ZSS can gimp her with Neutral-B, Down-B, and to a lesser extent Dtilt
-ZSS's mobility is AMAZING, so Luma spacing doesn't really work
-Approaching from above is unsafe in both of their cases; ZSS's Usmash has lots of range and decent killpower (which due to Rosalina's weight, can kill her at high percentages,) and Rosa's Utilt can easily lead to Uair juggles which means that ZSS will also die if the Rosa player gets the juggle down perfectly

That's all I have to say, I won't add a ratio unless there's more input from good ZSS players.

 

[DeLux]

With the right customs, this MU is 7:3 in Rosaluma's favor.
In the scrub rules this MU is 6:4 in Rosaluma's favor.

 

[teluoborg]

Yoh Falcon can one shot kill Luma with jab or dash attack. It works 80% of the time depending on the stage and where luma stands.

It's easy to spend more than half of the match time fighting rosalina without her luma.

It's definitely more like 52:48 than 57:43.

 

[mario123007]

Zero Suit Samus

• Fast and has many punishable combos.
• Not bad recovery.
• Awesome air game
• Powerful down throw that can also lead to a punishable combo.

Rosalina & Luma

• Move and attacks slower than ZSS
• Although she also had a good air game, but not punishable than ZSS
• Easily get juggled

I don't think Rosalina stands a chance against ZSS, I give 20:80.

 

[Castell]

Dude, even the worst match ups in Melee and Brawl were only around 30:70 at worst. Those involved chaingrabs, infinites, and various other zero-to-death. Smash 4 has none of those. There's no possible way for ZSS to counter Rosalina that hard.

Edit: wait forgot ganon had like a 10:90 match up with ice climbers in brawl, but you get my point.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yoh Falcon can one shot kill Luma with jab or dash attack. It works 80% of the time depending on the stage and where luma stands.

It's easy to spend more than half of the match time fighting rosalina without her luma.

It's definitely more like 52:48 than 57:43.

About 8 users made a ratio input for Rosalina vs. Captain Falcon, and I ended up getting 57:43 after adding up the inputted ratios to get an average. I know that the 57:43 ratio may be debatable, but it's pretty much what I've gotten.

We'll come back to Captain Falcon at a later date. By the time we start analyzing him again, we'll probably get different results on how that match-up will turn out.

 

[Zonderion]

Zero Suit Samus

• Fast and has many punishable combos.
• Not bad recovery.
• Awesome air game
• Powerful down throw that can also lead to a punishable combo.

Rosalina & Luma

• Move and attacks slower than ZSS
• Although she also had a good air game, but not punishable than ZSS
• Easily get juggled

I don't think Rosalina stands a chance against ZSS, I give 20:80.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I've played many ZSS and it's a match I like playing. ZSS is quick, but her attacks can be really punished if Rosalina spaces right. ZSS can be juggled, as our halo can beat out ZSS dair. A ZSS recovering low can be punished with back air. Rosalina's off stage game is much better than ZSS. Rosalina does have to watch out for ZSS aerials. ZSS grab game is easily punishable, Luma can meat shield the stuns. Rosalina can Zone out ZSS, much better than she can Falcon.
I would put this match up at 60:40.

 

[David Viran]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I've played many ZSS and it's a match I like playing. ZSS is quick, but her attacks can be really punished if Rosalina spaces right. ZSS can be juggled, as our halo can beat out ZSS dair. A ZSS recovering low can be punished with back air. Rosalina's off stage game is much better than ZSS. Rosalina does have to watch out for ZSS aerials. ZSS grab game is easily punishable, Luma can meat shield the stuns. Rosalina can Zone out ZSS, much better than she can Falcon.
I would put this match up at 60:40.

I have four things to say jab up b is guaranteed against rosa. Also her grab game is always punishable #tethergrabprobs but it has good reward to make up for it. Recovery ain't a problem really tether cancels will keep you guessing. Zair, dash attack, nair, Bair, dsmash, side b and maybe dtilt put Luma into tumble. Not arguing 8:2 BTW.

 

[Rosalina _88]

Zero Suit Samus

• Fast and has many punishable combos.
• Not bad recovery.
• Awesome air game
• Powerful down throw that can also lead to a punishable combo.

Rosalina & Luma

• Move and attacks slower than ZSS
• Although she also had a good air game, but not punishable than ZSS
• Easily get juggled

I don't think Rosalina stands a chance against ZSS, I give 20:80.

20:80 seems extreme. I'm not very good, and I still manage to beat ZSS about half the time. Just like when dealing with any other rushdown character, it's all about patience, control, and reads for Rosie.

 

[smashkng]

ZSS' Zair is a pretty strong tool vs Rosalina because of her large size. ZSS' aerials in general hit very well Rosalina because of her size. When Zair hits she can confirm into dash attack to put Rosalina in the air and do good damage. Paralyser is good at stopping Luma too. And ZSS' dash attack kills Luma very easily and so do her aerials. He can't clash with it because dash attack has trascendent priority. Don't be predictable with recovery as it's pretty easy to hit Rosalina out of up b. ZSS has the range to actually directly challenge Rosalina and she has much better mobility overall both on the ground and in the air. Avoid getting hit to the air and getting grabbed by ZSS. Try doing everything to stay at the center of the stage as a cornered Rosalina doesn't have quite as good defensive game as a non-cornered one. ZSS' jab 1 into Up b is a strong set up in this matchup so watch out for it. Rosalina's down b doesn't work very well against Paralyser because it's too fast of a projectile so she can potentially punish Rosalina for trying to stop it with that move. Overall, as Rosalina I'd prolly play defensive, stay at mid range where I can space with Luma, dash attacks and dash grabs and do everything to keep stage control and keep Luma alive, both which can be quite a challenge vs this character. Far range is not good because ZSS can harass with Paralyser and moves like Zair and Bair and at close range she has better frame data, like a frame 3 Utilt and a frame 1 jab. Rosalina's fastest move is her frame 5 Dtilt (jab is frame 3 when she has Luma, but Luma has projectile priority so it often gets beaten out by other moves). ZSS just moves so fast both on the ground and in the air so she can get out of corners easily. Without Luma I think ZSS outranges Rosalina, even with Luma ZSS really still can directly challenge Rosalina in terms of range and has the mobility it takes to even possibly outspace her. ZSS is quite good at resetting neutral too btw. It can be very difficult to consistently keep her in a bad spot because of her fall speed, air mobility and Flip Jump to escape from bad situations. It really makes up for her lightweight as that makes her take less damage than most other characters from being in a disadvantageous position. Having played Rosalina before and now maining ZSS, I've always felt like ZSS wins this matchup honestly solidly, even before the game got patched. I haven't had problems with the matchup as ZSS. ZSS simply hits harder overall at all times while Rosalina needs Luma to hit hard and even then only with specific moves like Fsmash and Usmash. ZSS just has so many hard hitting moves with moves that match with Rosalina in terms of range and a strong pressure game vs Rosalina. Her good shield pressure makes up pretty well for her having a tether grab, like Dsmash, spaced Ftilt, Zair, spaced Bair, spaced Nair, maybe even spaced landing Uair all being safe on shield. If played correctly ZSS can punish severely the slightest of commitments with her deadly Up b and combo game, so don't mess up your spacing or the timing of your dash attacks or else it's really going to cost in this matchup if the ZSS has the punish game on point.

So yeah overall for now I think this matchup's around 6-4 to ZSS. Rosalina has the options needed to win this matchup, it's just that ZSS does just about everything better except grabbing in most situations, even in neutral I feel like ZSS can be a pain to fight against as Rosalina. Rosalina has to read what the ZSS does and punish when possible, while struggling for stage control, keeping Luma alive and not overcommitting. Unless Dabuz has something no other Rosalinas in the world has, I think that ZSS does better in almost all aspects except landing grabs in this matchup. Rosalina just doesn't have a quite as good punish game, like getting huge % juggles and combos from a grab or KOing at 70% with Up b. When it comes to stages, I recommend flatter stages vs ZSS because her jump speed and height and amazing Uair makes her very dangerous below plataforms as she can pressure very very hard from below them and possibly even combo into a deadly Up b at the top, especially high ones like in Town and City, Duck Hunt and Battlefield. Avoid Halberd at all costs if it's legal. CP her to Lylat or some FD stage unless she bans them. Smashville is an okay too vs ZSS (the most neutral stage you could say).

 

[DeLux]

This MU seems to have many similarities to the Olimar vs. ZSS MU in Brawl at the neutral. ZSS can kind of make reads for grabs to try to open her opponent up, but otherwise she has to play this super skewed poke RPS that throws off the safety of her moves because of hitlag on Luma being a thing. That being said, the really only truly "safe" option ZSS has to poke at Luma on shield that won't get her grabbed on punishment or usmashed is Bair, which is beated by a preemptive usmash read since the spacing on Bair is to put it nicely delicate. So if the Rosaluma commits to playing safe on the ground, ZSS has to risk poking against Rosaluma making a correct guess on what to do and gives the business end of the heavy hits. You can see this play out when Choco and Dabuz play each other, which is really the only instance of this MU being played at the top level to my knowledge.

I disagree with taking ZSS to a "flat stage" in this MU, since facing a certain direction on slopes makes Rosaluma unpokeable if the goal is to get rid of Luma. Having the slopes negate bair means she has to risk getting railed for using things like Zair//plasmawhip/whiplash//Nair etc.

The primary way to circumvent this whole skewed RPS is for ZSS to play keep away and bait Rosaluma to overcommit. However, if customs are on, the lucky charms that do like 4.5% per shot prevent camping the **** out of her from being a viable option.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have four things to say jab up b is guaranteed against rosa. Also her grab game is always punishable #tethergrabprobs but it has good reward to make up for it. Recovery ain't a problem really tether cancels will keep you guessing. Zair, dash attack, nair, Bair, dsmash, side b and maybe dtilt put Luma into tumble. Not arguing 8:2 BTW.

Does this favor Zero Suit Samus? I'm a little confused there.

ZSS' Zair is a pretty strong tool vs Rosalina because of her large size. ZSS' aerials in general hit very well Rosalina because of her size. When Zair hits she can confirm into dash attack to put Rosalina in the air and do good damage. Paralyser is good at stopping Luma too. And ZSS' dash attack kills Luma very easily and so do her aerials. He can't clash with it because dash attack has trascendent priority. Don't be predictable with recovery as it's pretty easy to hit Rosalina out of up b. ZSS has the range to actually directly challenge Rosalina and she has much better mobility overall both on the ground and in the air. Avoid getting hit to the air and getting grabbed by ZSS. Try doing everything to stay at the center of the stage as a cornered Rosalina doesn't have quite as good defensive game as a non-cornered one. ZSS' jab 1 into Up b is a strong set up in this matchup so watch out for it. Rosalina's down b doesn't work very well against Paralyser because it's too fast of a projectile so she can potentially punish Rosalina for trying to stop it with that move. Overall, as Rosalina I'd prolly play defensive, stay at mid range where I can space with Luma, dash attacks and dash grabs and do everything to keep stage control and keep Luma alive, both which can be quite a challenge vs this character. Far range is not good because ZSS can harass with Paralyser and moves like Zair and Bair and at close range she has better frame data, like a frame 3 Utilt and a frame 1 jab. Rosalina's fastest move is her frame 5 Dtilt (jab is frame 3 when she has Luma, but Luma has projectile priority so it often gets beaten out by other moves). ZSS just moves so fast both on the ground and in the air so she can get out of corners easily. Without Luma I think ZSS outranges Rosalina, even with Luma ZSS really still can directly challenge Rosalina in terms of range and has the mobility it takes to even possibly outspace her. ZSS is quite good at resetting neutral too btw. It can be very difficult to consistently keep her in a bad spot because of her fall speed, air mobility and Flip Jump to escape from bad situations. It really makes up for her lightweight as that makes her take less damage than most other characters from being in a disadvantageous position. Having played Rosalina before and now maining ZSS, I've always felt like ZSS wins this matchup honestly solidly, even before the game got patched. I haven't had problems with the matchup as ZSS. ZSS simply hits harder overall at all times while Rosalina needs Luma to hit hard and even then only with specific moves like Fsmash and Usmash. ZSS just has so many hard hitting moves with moves that match with Rosalina in terms of range and a strong pressure game vs Rosalina. Her good shield pressure makes up pretty well for her having a tether grab, like Dsmash, spaced Ftilt, Zair, spaced Bair, spaced Nair, maybe even spaced landing Uair all being safe on shield. If played correctly ZSS can punish severely the slightest of commitments with her deadly Up b and combo game, so don't mess up your spacing or the timing of your dash attacks or else it's really going to cost in this matchup if the ZSS has the punish game on point.

So yeah overall for now I think this matchup's around 6-4 to ZSS. Rosalina has the options needed to win this matchup, it's just that ZSS does just about everything better except grabbing in most situations, even in neutral I feel like ZSS can be a pain to fight against as Rosalina. Rosalina has to read what the ZSS does and punish when possible, while struggling for stage control, keeping Luma alive and not overcommitting. Unless Dabuz has something no other Rosalinas in the world has, I think that ZSS does better in almost all aspects except landing grabs in this matchup. Rosalina just doesn't have a quite as good punish game, like getting huge % juggles and combos from a grab or KOing at 70% with Up b. When it comes to stages, I recommend flatter stages vs ZSS because her jump speed and height and amazing Uair makes her very dangerous below plataforms as she can pressure very very hard from below them and possibly even combo into a deadly Up b at the top, especially high ones like in Town and City, Duck Hunt and Battlefield. Avoid Halberd at all costs if it's legal. CP her to Lylat or some FD stage unless she bans them. Smashville is an okay too vs ZSS (the most neutral stage you could say).

Is this in Zero Suit Samus's favor? I'm a bit confused with how you worded the sentence that I bolded.

 

[David Viran]

This MU seems to have many similarities to the Olimar vs. ZSS MU in Brawl at the neutral. ZSS can kind of make reads for grabs to try to open her opponent up, but otherwise she has to play this super skewed poke RPS that throws off the safety of her moves because of hitlag on Luma being a thing. That being said, the really only truly "safe" option ZSS has to poke at Luma on shield that won't get her grabbed on punishment or usmashed is Bair, which is beated by a preemptive usmash read since the spacing on Bair is to put it nicely delicate. So if the Rosaluma commits to playing safe on the ground, ZSS has to risk poking against Rosaluma making a correct guess on what to do and gives the business end of the heavy hits. You can see this play out when Choco and Dabuz play each other, which is really the only instance of this MU being played at the top level to my knowledge.

I disagree with taking ZSS to a "flat stage" in this MU, since facing a certain direction on slopes makes Rosaluma unpokeable if the goal is to get rid of Luma. Having the slopes negate bair means she has to risk getting railed for using things like Zair//plasmawhip/whiplash//Nair etc.

The primary way to circumvent this whole skewed RPS is for ZSS to play keep away and bait Rosaluma to overcommit. However, if customs are on, the lucky charms that do like 4.5% per shot prevent camping the **** out of her from being a viable option.

Don't you have to hit Luma to get the hit lag? If the goal is to kill Luma then hitting him would be the way to do it. Rosas sheild can protect Luma too.

Does this favor Zero Suit Samus? I'm a little confused there.



Is this in Zero Suit Samus's favor? I'm a bit confused with how you worded the sentence that I bolded.

About even or in zss's favor.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

About even or in zss's favor.

I'm still kind of lost with that 8:2 ratio input though.

 

[David Viran]

I'm still kind of lost with that 8:2 ratio input though.

Who me oh that was because the guy I quoted was talking about how he disagreed with 8:2 and I didn't want him to think I thought the MU was 8:2.

 

[DeLux]

Don't you have to hit Luma to get the hit lag? If the goal is to kill Luma then hitting him would be the way to do it. Rosas sheild can protect Luma too.

Right, so you have to play super skewed RPS for the hope of killing Luma. If the Rosaluma player uses proper stage control as a strategy, every option that can kill Luma is either reactable or extremely punishable or in most cases both. So if they are smart you're going to have to risk getting mauled for the chance of killing Luma which just simply isn't in ZSS's favor.

 

[smashkng]

This MU seems to have many similarities to the Olimar vs. ZSS MU in Brawl at the neutral. ZSS can kind of make reads for grabs to try to open her opponent up, but otherwise she has to play this super skewed poke RPS that throws off the safety of her moves because of hitlag on Luma being a thing. That being said, the really only truly "safe" option ZSS has to poke at Luma on shield that won't get her grabbed on punishment or usmashed is Bair, which is beated by a preemptive usmash read since the spacing on Bair is to put it nicely delicate. So if the Rosaluma commits to playing safe on the ground, ZSS has to risk poking against Rosaluma making a correct guess on what to do and gives the business end of the heavy hits. You can see this play out when Choco and Dabuz play each other, which is really the only instance of this MU being played at the top level to my knowledge.

I disagree with taking ZSS to a "flat stage" in this MU, since facing a certain direction on slopes makes Rosaluma unpokeable if the goal is to get rid of Luma. Having the slopes negate bair means she has to risk getting railed for using things like Zair//plasmawhip/whiplash//Nair etc.

The primary way to circumvent this whole skewed RPS is for ZSS to play keep away and bait Rosaluma to overcommit. However, if customs are on, the lucky charms that do like 4.5% per shot prevent camping the **** out of her from being a viable option.

Usmash is a pretty big commitment. I haven't had major problems with this hitlag thing of Luma. And her grabs haven't felt scary at all overall. She doesn't get much out of throws other than stage control, which isn't that hard to regain as ZSS. You could also argue that Choco wasn't playing the matchup optimally, which I think was the case. Like he respected Dabuz too much I think and didn't dare going to dash attack or dash grab when that was going to work. And also could have pressured Dabuz more I feel like with moves like Zair. For me it looked like more like he did get outplayed than lost cause of the matchup. Of course Choco is really good, but he was too scared of Dabuz. Prolly cause of matchup inexperience and inexperience vs Dabuz in general. Choco's also weird because he almost never Up bs and rarely goes for Uair, both which are super strong tools. But yeah overall ZSS is a lot about reads. Yes ZSS has to take risks in some situations but the rewards from them are also really huge. Maybe Dabuz is the only Rosalina in the world that counts, because killing Luma really hasn't been an issue for me.

And yes M&SG, I mean 6-4 ZSS' favour obviously.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Who me oh that was because the guy I quoted was talking about how he disagreed with 8:2 and I didn't want him to think I thought the MU was 8:2.

I see. I accidentally thought that you were going 20:80, but since that's been cleared up now, that helped me fix up the ratio contribution list.

 

[DeLux]

Usmash is a pretty big commitment. I haven't had major problems with this hitlag thing of Luma. And her grabs haven't felt scary at all overall. She doesn't get much out of throws other than stage control, which isn't that hard to regain as ZSS. You could also argue that Choco wasn't playing the matchup optimally, which I think was the case. Like he respected Dabuz too much I think and didn't dare going to dash attack or dash grab when that was going to work. And also could have pressured Dabuz more I feel like with moves like Zair. For me it looked like more like he did get outplayed than lost cause of the matchup. Of course Choco is really good, but he was too scared of Dabuz. Prolly cause of matchup inexperience and inexperience vs Dabuz in general. Choco's also weird because he almost never Up bs and rarely goes for Uair, both which are super strong tools. But yeah overall ZSS is a lot about reads. Yes ZSS has to take risks in some situations but the rewards from them are also really huge. Maybe Dabuz is the only Rosalina in the world that counts, because killing Luma really hasn't been an issue for me.

And yes M&SG, I mean 6-4 ZSS' favour obviously.

Honestly hard to say who got outplayed etc. It's not like there are any other high level examples of the MU being played as a frame of reference on how to play the MU "right".

 

[smashkng]

Honestly hard to say who got outplayed etc. It's not like there are any other high level examples of the MU being played as a frame of reference on how to play the MU "right".

Oh but I can tell that. Choco dropped a few very crucial juggles and ledge traps which Dabuz wouldn't have escaped if he positioned better. It's absolutely noticeable that there were quite some things he could have done better. And Dabuz was really reading better overall I can absolutely tell. By the way you say it, I could say that this set doesn't really tell the whole story of how the matchup works. Don't just say "but there's no other set to show this matchup in high level" and act like this set tells the whole picture because it sure wasn't played completely optimally, even if it can give a good idea about a few important things.

 

[DeLux]

Oh but I can tell that. Choco dropped a few very crucial juggles and ledge traps which Dabuz wouldn't have escaped if he positioned better. It's absolutely noticeable that there were quite some things he could have done better. And Dabuz was really reading better overall I can absolutely tell. By the way you say it, I could say that this set doesn't really tell the whole story of how the matchup works. Don't just say "but there's no other set to show this matchup in high level" and act like this set tells the whole picture because it sure wasn't played completely optimally, even if it can give a good idea about a few important things.

I don't know, I felt the opposite. It looked like Choco was playing the immaculate game, until the pressure and demands of the MU were too much and Dabuz forced him into bad situations. It seems pretty subjective to say one side is more optimized than the other no?

So we can either make some sort of subjective conjecture on how things "should" happen, but for every ZSS play there appears to be a solid and safe Rosaluma counterplay. This isn't even factoring in customs, which gives Rosaluma some absurd tools. Alternatively, the time the MU was played at the top level, one of players was objectively given the business, marking the beginnings of an existential crisis for the player lol

 

[smashkng]

I don't know, I felt the opposite. It looked like Choco was playing the immaculate game, until the pressure and demands of the MU were too much and Dabuz forced him into bad situations. It seems pretty subjective to say one side is more optimized than the other no?

So we can either make some sort of subjective conjecture on how things "should" happen, but for every ZSS play there appears to be a solid and safe Rosaluma counterplay. This isn't even factoring in customs, which gives Rosaluma some absurd tools. Alternatively, the time the MU was played at the top level, one of players was objectively given the business, marking the beginnings of an existential crisis for the player lol

So basically, you're saying he didn't have enough experience on the matchup against someone of Dabuz's level. Choco's really good, but it's still obvious that he has a lot he can be better at honestly. I don't think it was any less struggling for Dabuz he just had clearly better reads which showed he was better there as a player and wasn't overrespecting Choco's stuff like viceversa.

 

[mario123007]

20:80 seems extreme. I'm not very good, and I still manage to beat ZSS about half the time. Just like when dealing with any other rushdown character, it's all about patience, control, and reads for Rosie.

I had met a suck ZSS player before too. But here is a ZSS pro, I had watch a couple of matches, a ZSS pro is god damn good...

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I've played many ZSS and it's a match I like playing. ZSS is quick, but her attacks can be really punished if Rosalina spaces right. ZSS can be juggled, as our halo can beat out ZSS dair. A ZSS recovering low can be punished with back air. Rosalina's off stage game is much better than ZSS. Rosalina does have to watch out for ZSS aerials. ZSS grab game is easily punishable, Luma can meat shield the stuns. Rosalina can Zone out ZSS, much better than she can Falcon.
I would put this match up at 60:40.

I think 60:40 is not bad, and ZSS grab game is punishable, and can also lead to a powerful up B.
Then main reason why I give a big ratio is because Rosalina isn't quicker than ZSS. I really can't find any of advantage of Rosalina except her good zoning.

 

[Zonderion]

I had met a suck ZSS player before too. But here is a ZSS pro, I had watch a couple of matches, a ZSS pro is god damn good...

I think 60:40 is not bad, and ZSS grab game is punishable, and can also lead to a powerful up B.
Then main reason why I give a big ratio is because Rosalina isn't quicker than ZSS. I really can't find any of advantage of Rosalina except her good zoning.

I agree that ZSS has some great and dangerous options, but because Rosalina can zone out ZSS so well, it tips the match in Rosalina's favor. I have played a lot of ZSSes and Rosalina can control the match so well.

 

[smashkng]

I agree that ZSS has some great and dangerous options, but because Rosalina can zone out ZSS so well, it tips the match in Rosalina's favor. I have played a lot of ZSSes and Rosalina can control the match so well.

Actually when I played vs Rosalina I often was the one zoning her for some reason. Bair, Zair, Paralyser are all difficult for Rosalina to deal with when used correctly. ZSS is strong at controlling space. ZSS' moves hit Rosalina easily because she is so big. Rosalina often has to shield but because a lot of ZSS' moves are safe on shield, she can continue pressure if you shield them. And if you rely too much on shielding you will get grabbed even by someone like ZSS. She has to guess correctly what ZSS will do but if you guess wrong you might overcommit and get punished very hard like losing Luma and getting comboed. ZSS' baiting game is strong after all. And when it comes to punishing ZSS just hits significantly harder, is better at resetting back neutral after losing it overall and she has much better combos. Like Rosalina's punishes from grab game aren't nearly as scary as ZSS' is.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Actually when I played vs Rosalina I often was the one zoning her for some reason. Bair, Zair, Paralyser are all difficult for Rosalina to deal with when used correctly. ZSS is strong at controlling space. ZSS' moves hit Rosalina easily because she is so big. Rosalina often has to shield but because a lot of ZSS' moves are safe on shield, she can continue pressure if you shield them. And if you rely too much on shielding you will get grabbed even by someone like ZSS. She has to guess correctly what ZSS will do but if you guess wrong you might overcommit and get punished very hard like losing Luma and getting comboed. ZSS' baiting game is strong after all. And when it comes to punishing ZSS just hits significantly harder, is better at resetting back neutral after losing it overall and she has much better combos. Like Rosalina's punishes from grab game aren't nearly as scary as ZSS' is.

Umm, no, zss doesn't have that many safe moves on shield except zair and down smash, all her other moves are very punishable.

Anyway, 50:50 for this matchup because they both zone and it seems who gets the most reads wins.

 

[David Viran]

Umm, no, zss doesn't have that many safe moves on shield except zair and down smash, all her other moves are very punishable.

Bair is very safe on shield actually her safest move on sheild.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

ZSS' Zair is a pretty strong tool vs Rosalina because of her large size. ZSS' aerials in general hit very well Rosalina because of her size. When Zair hits she can confirm into dash attack to put Rosalina in the air and do good damage. Paralyser is good at stopping Luma too. And ZSS' dash attack kills Luma very easily and so do her aerials. He can't clash with it because dash attack has trascendent priority. Don't be predictable with recovery as it's pretty easy to hit Rosalina out of up b. ZSS has the range to actually directly challenge Rosalina and she has much better mobility overall both on the ground and in the air. Avoid getting hit to the air and getting grabbed by ZSS. Try doing everything to stay at the center of the stage as a cornered Rosalina doesn't have quite as good defensive game as a non-cornered one. ZSS' jab 1 into Up b is a strong set up in this matchup so watch out for it. Rosalina's down b doesn't work very well against Paralyser because it's too fast of a projectile so she can potentially punish Rosalina for trying to stop it with that move. Overall, as Rosalina I'd prolly play defensive, stay at mid range where I can space with Luma, dash attacks and dash grabs and do everything to keep stage control and keep Luma alive, both which can be quite a challenge vs this character. Far range is not good because ZSS can harass with Paralyser and moves like Zair and Bair and at close range she has better frame data, like a frame 3 Utilt and a frame 1 jab. Rosalina's fastest move is her frame 5 Dtilt (jab is frame 3 when she has Luma, but Luma has projectile priority so it often gets beaten out by other moves). ZSS just moves so fast both on the ground and in the air so she can get out of corners easily. Without Luma I think ZSS outranges Rosalina, even with Luma ZSS really still can directly challenge Rosalina in terms of range and has the mobility it takes to even possibly outspace her. ZSS is quite good at resetting neutral too btw. It can be very difficult to consistently keep her in a bad spot because of her fall speed, air mobility and Flip Jump to escape from bad situations. It really makes up for her lightweight as that makes her take less damage than most other characters from being in a disadvantageous position. Having played Rosalina before and now maining ZSS, I've always felt like ZSS wins this matchup honestly solidly, even before the game got patched. I haven't had problems with the matchup as ZSS. ZSS simply hits harder overall at all times while Rosalina needs Luma to hit hard and even then only with specific moves like Fsmash and Usmash. ZSS just has so many hard hitting moves with moves that match with Rosalina in terms of range and a strong pressure game vs Rosalina. Her good shield pressure makes up pretty well for her having a tether grab, like Dsmash, spaced Ftilt, Zair, spaced Bair, spaced Nair, maybe even spaced landing Uair all being safe on shield. If played correctly ZSS can punish severely the slightest of commitments with her deadly Up b and combo game, so don't mess up your spacing or the timing of your dash attacks or else it's really going to cost in this matchup if the ZSS has the punish game on point.

So yeah overall for now I think this matchup's around 6-4 to ZSS. Rosalina has the options needed to win this matchup, it's just that ZSS does just about everything better except grabbing in most situations, even in neutral I feel like ZSS can be a pain to fight against as Rosalina. Rosalina has to read what the ZSS does and punish when possible, while struggling for stage control, keeping Luma alive and not overcommitting. Unless Dabuz has something no other Rosalinas in the world has, I think that ZSS does better in almost all aspects except landing grabs in this matchup. Rosalina just doesn't have a quite as good punish game, like getting huge % juggles and combos from a grab or KOing at 70% with Up b. When it comes to stages, I recommend flatter stages vs ZSS because her jump speed and height and amazing Uair makes her very dangerous below plataforms as she can pressure very very hard from below them and possibly even combo into a deadly Up b at the top, especially high ones like in Town and City, Duck Hunt and Battlefield. Avoid Halberd at all costs if it's legal. CP her to Lylat or some FD stage unless she bans them. Smashville is an okay too vs ZSS (the most neutral stage you could say).

Also, zss u b can be di out of easily, Rosalina will punish you hards when your in helpless mode with a smash, which in high percents, thats a stock.

Bair is very safe on shield actually her safest move on sheild.

ok thats one move, saying that she has a lot of safe moves on shield when she really only has 3 is not a valid argument.

 

[David Viran]

Also, zss u b can be di out of easily, Rosalina will punish you hards when your in helpless mode with a smash, which in high percents, thats a stock.

That's not how up b works. ZSS can catch your DI up until zss has a bunch of rage Rosas percent doesn't matter. At that much rage the first hits of up b send you way to high to even get a punish. Even if you fall out at low percents how is rosa going to land first especially early enough to get a Smash attack?

ok thats one move, saying that she has a lot of safe moves on shield when she really only has 3 is not a valid argument.

Safety on sheild would also be nair, ftilt, somewhat dtilt, and a very well spaced uair.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

I dont know about that, when i di i never recieve this added knock back that you speak of and ill just fast fall because ill di and get out of up b then fast fall while your finishing the move, then ill up smash zss.

 

[David Viran]

Rage affects the kb of the first hits a lot. High rage is the only time getting out for free is a thing.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

That's not how up b works. ZSS can catch your DI up until zss has a bunch of rage Rosas percent doesn't matter. At that much rage the first hits of up b send you way to high to even get a punish. Even if you fall out at low percents how is rosa going to land first especially early enough to get a Smash attack?


Safety on sheild would also be nair, ftilt, somewhat dtilt, and a very well spaced uair.

ftilt is not safe on shields because ill just grab you or dtilt you and u air doesn't count because i cant shield if im in mid air, and if you do it on the ground, i will punish your landing with dash atk or grab.

Rage affects the kb of the first hits a lot. High rage is the only time getting out for free is a thing.

ok, sounds reasonable, but up b is not a reliable kill move, which zss suffers a lot for having very few kill moves.