Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[AbsoluteBlack]

The kragg side b mixup to avoid parries is to turnaround on top of them, dropping your hitbox and hitting them in their parry lag.

 

[someonetookjacob]

The kragg side b mixup to avoid parries is to turnaround on top of them, dropping your hitbox and hitting them in their parry lag.

Yeah, I did say that before.... but I checked later and think I was wrong about that. It looks like turning does not drop the hitbox, you still might be able to turn around right before hitting them but I dont think you can turn back around fast enough to hit them out of their parry lag with side-b. you can try running away but if they react and are smart they just follow you and smash you on get out. You can also try getting out of side-b ASAP but if the react to that they can hit you too (though I think thats harder to react to.)

Personally I think the best option is to try to mix it up by landing on platforms, and canceling it as soon as landing sometimes, before landing others, and right infront of them rarely, to just keep them guessing. All are still dangerous... but as long as you touch ground you probably can get another shot at recovering, and sense they now have to guess what you are doing between a few things the move you get hit with will probably not be a strong attack, so you stand a decent chance of being in a better recovering position than last time.

I think I agree with your over all sentiment that the move is fine as it is now though, My suggestion was much less about balancing or helping kragg, and much more about it being a really fun cool mix-up. Like I said, I think its a pretty minor and situation buff, but with a big fun factor. (I could be wrong though! Idk, I just think its worth a try.)

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

My roommate does it to me all the time, it's at least a super tight timing mixup. Obviously it's still a 50/50 kind of thing if you read the parry, but it's there (in addition to the obvious spacing/cancelling/platform/etc. parry avoidance).

I don't think your suggestion is bad at all, I just wanted to make sure everyone knew there was a neat little anti parry mixup already

 

[ZaoMonichi]

Tbh it's not that hard to mix up when you side-b and not get parried. Someone who knows what they're doing shouldn't be using a move like that a bunch. Kragg has a few other options in terms of spacing. Side-b can also mind-game by being used to bait a parry. Even rolling into a rock will cover some parries due to the super armor, which is the best part about that move. Just gotta learn how to hit it reliably and when to use it. I may do a guide on Kragg some time soon bc I can.

 

[RoA_Zam]

@ ZaoMonichi @ someonetookjacob Dan doesn't want moves that are essentially copied from character to character. I've talked about a single small downB spike when used aerially but that would be too similar to maypuls dair for him to want to implement it.

 

[Big Papi]

@ 4nace

After reading through your Twitter thread on teching in place vs no tech, I had a idea.

Would it be a bad idea to have the two options as an inverse of the other? What I mean by that is, have no tech and tech in place both have the same frame length. But have no tech vulnerable in the first half and invincible getup/recovery. While teching in place leaves is invincible for the first half, yet vulnerable during the second half (like a cooldown/recovery).

This would mean the combo-er can punish miss techs or, like punishing an air dodge, can make the read for when they think they'll tech in place.

I think this would be in line with what you wanted to accomplish: should be punished for not teching, while at the same time, having no tech as a viable option.

 

[Tene_Sicarius]

Are there any plans to have different elements effect each other? An example would be zetterburn burning maypul's plant so anyone who passes through it is burnt, and the seeds that pass it would gain a damage increase and burn instead of mark, but the plant would be destroyed when the fire stops. I just thought that it might be an interesting concept for teams, so different characters would have synergy with each other, and could really put more focus on learning character matchups.

 

[jam1garner]

Are there any plans to have different elements effect each other? An example would be zetterburn burning maypul's plant so anyone who passes through it is burnt, and the seeds that pass it would gain a damage increase and burn instead of mark, but the plant would be destroyed when the fire stops. I just thought that it might be an interesting concept for teams, so different characters would have synergy with each other, and could really put more focus on learning character matchups.

At first I thought you meant Pokemon style (certain types are more effective.) I really like the idea though, just needs more "mixes" for balances (as evident with the new sheik and watch development.)

 

[Xanthus]

http://www.twitch.tv/xanthus1

Playing some friendlies at MillionManLan 14! (www.lanwar.com)

 

[Lucario's Power]

Hello, I recently sent an email to the RoA team, however this would make it my second time sending a playtester application to them. I've heard information about receiving feedback up to a week later from sending apps, though. Could someone possibly tell me if they're still even sending out alpha builds to people?

 

[Smog]

I think they stopped sending alpha builds, but the beta should be coming out next month if we are lucky.

 

[Tene_Sicarius]

At first I thought you meant Pokemon style (certain types are more effective.) I really like the idea though, just needs more "mixes" for balances (as evident with the new sheik and watch development.)

I really hope there's nothing that broken at launch. I know its based off melee, just with automatic teching and l canceling, so 0 to deaths will exist, but having a single move with an easy setup as an instant kill would just be broken. It has as many "playable" characters as melee, and I'm curious to see how the meta develops at launch. This would be a major mechanic, so it might get saved for a sequel, if there is one.

 

[N00ne]

@ N00ne , I'd like to talk to you a bit about getting mac setups working. Can you use something similar to x360ce to make dinput controllers work?

In order to get a mac setup working, you need to use Wineskin Winery. I won't get too technical about the requirements at the moment, but the most important thing you need to do is install Winetricks that emulate the resources that the game needs (directx, .NET, etc.) at the moment, Wineskin doesn't support controllers in any form, and x360ce doesn't function at all in Wineskin.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

I was bigfriendlygames in your stream, we went over it. Thanks again for that.

 

[theopenlink22]

Why was there a seed nerf? I think it should stay at 2 and deal minimal knockback, like falco's laser. Also, please add big stages!

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Tournament starting in a few minutes at http://www.twitch.tv/bigfriendlygames !

 

[jam1garner]

Tournament starting in a few minutes at http://www.twitch.tv/bigfriendlygames !

Can't wait! Will there be commentators?

 

[theopenlink22]

Question 4Nace, will you continue to send the us playtesters the updated versions? Also, can you make large stages like temple from Brawl/Smash 4?

 

[N00ne]

I was bigfriendlygames in your stream, we went over it. Thanks again for that.

You're welcome, I'm always happy to give advice. Missed your stream, but enjoyed the Maypul glitch. Do you think I should put up some sort of video or article of some kind for other people asking about a Mac version?

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Tournament went great! Vods should be up in a few days, hopefully a gfycat or two tonight. I also have two HUGE posts to make, about technical stuff (mostly controllers) and game balance (mostly things I've already said but now have more evidence for). I'll put those here and on reddit.

Major shoutouts to all of our viewers, especially d4nace himself! Loved you guys.

Also major shoutouts to FX Game Exchange for hosting us, and to my roommates and co-TO's, and to Youngblood of the dev team for all of their help.

 

[jam1garner]

Tournament went great! Vods should be up in a few days, hopefully a gfycat or two tonight. I also have two HUGE posts to make, about technical stuff (mostly controllers) and game balance (mostly things I've already said but now have more evidence for). I'll put those here and on reddit.

Major shoutouts to all of our viewers, especially d4nace himself! Loved you guys.

Also major shoutouts to FX Game Exchange for hosting us, and to my roommates and co-TO's, and to Youngblood of the dev team for all of their help.

Can't wait to see those GCC tutorials in case EA doesn't have native support

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Why was there a seed nerf? I think it should stay at 2 and deal minimal knockback, like falco's laser. Also, please add big stages!

Oh my god did you play with the Falco Seeds? It was insane esp against Forsburn and Kragg. Even now Maypul can play a very effective campy style (probably a bit too effective honestly.) Falco seeds was beyond the pale.

 

[someonetookjacob]

Tournament went great! Vods should be up in a few days, hopefully a gfycat or two tonight. I also have two HUGE posts to make, about technical stuff (mostly controllers) and game balance (mostly things I've already said but now have more evidence for). I'll put those here and on reddit.

Major shoutouts to all of our viewers, especially d4nace himself! Loved you guys.

Also major shoutouts to FX Game Exchange for hosting us, and to my roommates and co-TO's, and to Youngblood of the dev team for all of their help.

Really looking forward to the Vods. Sadly, I couldnt watch live.

EDIT to avoid near double posting...:
<look down> mmmmm look at how good Kragg looks murdering that dumb fire cat. So nice! </look down>

 

[RoA_Zam]

i betrayed my own:

 

[ZaoMonichi]

Question 4Nace, will you continue to send the us playtesters the updated versions? Also, can you make large stages like temple from Brawl/Smash 4?

Those won't be realistically possible due to the fact that the sprite dimensions can't have a camera scale out smoothly to show every character without distorting the sprites. It works in Smash because they are much higher resolution models.

 

[someonetookjacob]

Those won't be realistically possible due to the fact that the sprite dimensions can't have a camera scale out smoothly to show every character without distorting the sprites. It works in Smash because they are much higher resolution models.

Thats true but I think the sentiment is well founded. Some stages that are larger than the current ones would be really nice, and totally doable. Something more on the order of final destination, or... spear pillar (people remember that stage right?) or Smashville. I mean aether rock wall is huge, we just need something like that but without destroyable platforms and walk offs.

Just to stress this point more. A week or two ago (I meant to post basically these sentiments then, but forgot... I guess) I played a bunch of team and 4-v-all matches. What came out of that is that while the current stages are all awesome for 1v1, with more people on the map, so many characters having battle field control abilities and the very fast paced gameplay it was ridiculously chaotic. Too chaotic to be a mode I would want to play alot. And this is coming from someone who Loves teams in smash. Maybe with more practice I could get used to it, but I really think 2 stages more on the scale of FD would help alot. Hopefully with some interesting platforms. (Having one stage with medium small sometimes platforms off stage could be a really nice addition for some recovery help every once and a while. Might make edge guarding a little bit more interesting on that stage. Which I know some people want)

The other thing I noticed is that we really need stock sharing on. Without it teams becomes too much or a game of pick on the weak link (or should I say forsburn. harharhar! (Get it... because Link, and swords... and...actually thats the whole joke. Good one huh?)) for it to be nearly as good of a competitive mode. If Dan is worried about being to smash-like, You could do a mix up where the players on a team have a shared stalk-pool in the HUD, and characters automatically respawn as long as there are lives there. It would be effectively the same for high level tournament play, but it would feel fresh and different. And to alot of casual people they might not even know there was the stalk stealing option in smash, or they wouldnt have thought they should use it if they did know.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Teams in Rivals suffers because the game really can barely keep every one on the screen (often it can't at all, tbh.)

When two people fight on the right side of stage and two fight on the left often people get scrolled off of the screen.

Even in 1v1 people get scrolled off of the screen at awkward times sometimes.

Larger stages just don't seem possible given the way that 4Nace is scaling the game... and as someone working on a pixel art game myself I can't say I blame him because scaling in real time almost always looks like crap (frustratingly so.)

Also: I prefer not having stock sharing because it kinda defeats the whole point of being two separate people.

 

[Steel Banana]

Stock sharing is already in the game. Pressing the back button steals a stock from your teammate.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Stock sharing is already in the game. Pressing the back button steals a stock from your teammate.

aww...

 

[RoA_Zam]

Streaming from 8 - 12 EST

http://twitch.tv/zetterburn

THANKS FOR EVERYONE WHO TUNED IN (:

Found two new glitches which I have to go back and recount what they are. One was a crash, I don't recall the second one.

 

[theopenlink22]

So after playing the game for a while, I thought it may be a good idea to post my character tier list. This is of course not final and does not mean anything, for you can be amazing at any character. For these characters are very well balanced.

1) Wrastor: Wrastor is the highest for a few reasons. In general, Wrastor is a great character. He has the speed and air mobility of jiggs, and the best combos, follow ups, priority, and kill setups. He is extremely fast and agile in the air, matched by no other character, giving him control and easy retreats
Throughout combat. This mobility is even more influenced by his side special. Almost every single move he has leads into combos, he has great Air attacks that have range and speed like no other. He can combo at any time or situation, giving him the No.1 spot on my list.

2) Zetterburn: Zetterburn is an insanely powerful character. He has a great camp game with his down special, and side special. He can make a wall of fire that pressures and camps the other character. With fire strong attacks, he can do great DMG and kill at 20-30%. He has some good combo game, and great approaches. In all, he is an absolute glass cannon that can adapt and change in the match. Giving him the NO.2 spot.

3) Orcane: Besides being the most derpy looking character in ROA, he is amazing. Orcane is a complex and reliable character, able to control and manipulate the neutral game with his puddles. He has great killing moves and can do sliding strong attacks like there is no tomorrow. He is a powerful character that can adapt and change the battlefield, giving Orcane my NO.3 spot.

4) Kragg: My boy Kragg has been getting some hate, let me change your mind. He is a strong but not so slow character, with surprisingly good combo game. He has great disjointed specials that are none dared challenge. He has the best recovery in the game, that he can instantly throw out to stop any combo. He has an awesome spike, and good setups and a great foothold in the neutral. He does lack speed though, giving him NO.4.

5) Maypul: I never really thought Maypul was that good since the beginning. She does have a good camp game, with good specials and long range strong attacks and decent combo game. She does have speed on her side though. Ariel attacks are pretty good,
With a spiking fair.
Recovery is not good in combat, it
Has too much ending lag to it. Decent character, kind of quirky though giving her NO.5 spot.

6) Forsburn: Eh... Forsburn never caught my eye. I think a prankster trickster character is a cool concept, but you are lucky if you are to keep the smoke out for more than 5 seconds! His strong attacks are quirky, but be does have a good down spike. His recover is full of lag though, making it down air spike food! He lacks enough combo material to be a solid character though, making him last on my tier list.

Please tell me what you think! I will probably end up changing it!

 

[Cirby64]

Anyone that got the x360ce thing to work properly willing to share their stick configuration? I've noticed that when I'm trying to perform a side-special for example, if I don't push the stick perfectly left or right without it going up or down by even a milimeter, it will register me doing an up-special or down-special. This is really annoying and makes it hard to play. I'm using the Mayflash 4-player adapter by the way.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

2) Zetterburn: Zetterburn is an insanely powerful character. He has a great camp game with his down special, and side special. He can make a wall of fire that pressures and camps the other character. With fire strong attacks, he can do great DMG and kill at 20-30%. He has some good combo game, and great approaches. In all, he is an absolute glass cannon that can adapt and change in the match. Giving him the NO.2 spot.

When do you see Zburn killing at 20-30%?

 

[Streetwize]

To be fair, I was able to get kills with about everyone in the March build at less than 50% using charged Strong attacks. They're so good uncharged that charging them just makes them deadlier. It feels to me as if charging increases the scaling as well as the knockback. That could easily be wrong though.

 

[RoA_Zam]

So after playing the game for a while, I thought it may be a good idea to post my character tier list. This is of course not final and does not mean anything, for you can be amazing at any character. For these characters are very well balanced.

1) Wrastor: Wrastor is the highest for a few reasons. In general, Wrastor is a great character. He has the speed and air mobility of jiggs, and the best combos, follow ups, priority, and kill setups. He is extremely fast and agile in the air, matched by no other character, giving him control and easy retreats
Throughout combat. This mobility is even more influenced by his side special. Almost every single move he has leads into combos, he has great Air attacks that have range and speed like no other. He can combo at any time or situation, giving him the No.1 spot on my list.

2) Zetterburn: Zetterburn is an insanely powerful character. He has a great camp game with his down special, and side special. He can make a wall of fire that pressures and camps the other character. With fire strong attacks, he can do great DMG and kill at 20-30%. He has some good combo game, and great approaches. In all, he is an absolute glass cannon that can adapt and change in the match. Giving him the NO.2 spot.

3) Orcane: Besides being the most derpy looking character in ROA, he is amazing. Orcane is a complex and reliable character, able to control and manipulate the neutral game with his puddles. He has great killing moves and can do sliding strong attacks like there is no tomorrow. He is a powerful character that can adapt and change the battlefield, giving Orcane my NO.3 spot.

4) Kragg: My boy Kragg has been getting some hate, let me change your mind. He is a strong but not so slow character, with surprisingly good combo game. He has great disjointed specials that are none dared challenge. He has the best recovery in the game, that he can instantly throw out to stop any combo. He has an awesome spike, and good setups and a great foothold in the neutral. He does lack speed though, giving him NO.4.

5) Maypul: I never really thought Maypul was that good since the beginning. She does have a good camp game, with good specials and long range strong attacks and decent combo game. She does have speed on her side though. Ariel attacks are pretty good,
With a spiking fair.
Recovery is not good in combat, it
Has too much ending lag to it. Decent character, kind of quirky though giving her NO.5 spot.

6) Forsburn: Eh... Forsburn never caught my eye. I think a prankster trickster character is a cool concept, but you are lucky if you are to keep the smoke out for more than 5 seconds! His strong attacks are quirky, but be does have a good down spike. His recover is full of lag though, making it down air spike food! He lacks enough combo material to be a solid character though, making him last on my tier list.

Please tell me what you think! I will probably end up changing it!

Which build are you even using? Because in the June build Zetterburn doesn't kill anyone bar maypul until 70%+ when burned unless you're gimping a CPU Orcane.

Maypul is much faster than wrastor is on both air and ground, and is faster than wrastor in a wind tunnel. Much more mobile. If maypul wasn't the best then she wouldn't be getting all these nerfs. I will say that she isn't the best though because her combos are pretty hard to string together now without acorn knockback.

Orcane can walk out opponents with retreating bairs, retreating RAR fairs, down B puddles, and if Orcane always has a puddle on the ground near center stage then he controls it pretty easily if you know how to use it to make an opponent respect your spacing.

Zetterburn's recovery and Fire nerfs are why he's not ever going to be above 3rd place on this build in my honest opinion. He completely dominates maypul though which is a plus.

Forsburns recovery relies on smoke to extend it. I rarely ever see good players use neutral B during their recovery because with it, he essentially can recover infinitely with precise timing and spacing of clouds and up B's.

Kragg has gotten a lot better, I will admit that. side B tricks make combos a lot more fluid.

Wrastor is underused for how much potential he has. I don't know where to put him but possibly top 3 since custom controls allow for aerials with right analog stick now. So you can set a button to strong attacks making them easier to perform. He also has a glitch with right analog set to attack where he can do up Strong on the ground which reaches through platforms on treetop, fire Capitol, rock wall, and merchant. His side B negates projectiles. If his fair has slightly more upward knockback like melee Marth then he'd be way crazier to play against. Having a spike took away down Strong kills since no one wants to take that risk as often now off stage, but it made it a good tool to link into nair, fair, dair > aerial, or up B sweetspot, or a strong hit with enough knockback. But even with all these pluses, his ability to die easily from Strong hits makes him bad on any stage with low ceilings, leaving pretty much only fire Capitol as his best stage to play on.

 

[someonetookjacob]

Teams in Rivals suffers because the game really can barely keep every one on the screen (often it can't at all, tbh.)

When two people fight on the right side of stage and two fight on the left often people get scrolled off of the screen.

Even in 1v1 people get scrolled off of the screen at awkward times sometimes.

Larger stages just don't seem possible given the way that 4Nace is scaling the game... and as someone working on a pixel art game myself I can't say I blame him because scaling in real time almost always looks like crap (frustratingly so.)

Also: I prefer not having stock sharing because it kinda defeats the whole point of being two separate people.

The size constraints are a good point. Maybe a stage that is larger vertically, rather than horizontally could help. Again... sorry to keep referencing Spear Pillar (which had some of the most annoying stage "hazards" of any smash stage ever....) but maybe something like that, where there is a lower section, and a higher section separated by actual ground, not just platforms. Ceiling combos could be fun. Bigger doesnt have to mean wider, I think we just need some options with more places to fight.

Just throwing around ideas.

@ Steel Banana Thanks for that info! I think I didnt know that because the way I have x-box buttons mapped to my GC controller there is no back... Maybe I will set it to down d-pad. That should be fine. It will also make quitting matches way less annoying...

 

[theopenlink22]

I am using the June build.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

@ Cirby64 I'm making a reddit post tonight about the setup we used for the tournament on sunday.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

The size constraints are a good point. Maybe a stage that is larger vertically, rather than horizontally could help. Again... sorry to keep referencing Spear Pillar (which had some of the most annoying stage "hazards" of any smash stage ever....) but maybe something like that, where there is a lower section, and a higher section separated by actual ground, not just platforms. Ceiling combos could be fun. Bigger doesnt have to mean wider, I think we just need some options with more places to fight.

Just throwing around ideas.

@ Steel Banana Thanks for that info! I think I didnt know that because the way I have x-box buttons mapped to my GC controller there is no back... Maybe I will set it to down d-pad. That should be fine. It will also make quitting matches way less annoying...

actually a stage that was like final destination but with one long soft (droppable) platform about 2 character's length up might be really fun.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Just got vods from the tourny up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOcUSXQCKM&list=PL-NlIPWXLQ3TZewkjdfs_38gPCrNaRhHf).

Also tune in to bigfriendlygames tonight after 6 CST to see a developer build stream with Youngblood!