"Revival of DGames" Mafia

[Wots All This Then?]

I had a phone.

Paraphrased from my role PM, the phone might let me get messagers,

No where in this was I informed this could send out messages, no where in my original Role PM does it mention this.

N1 Ruy/rosalina dies, I get told as a mod fo Dgames I pick up the slack and can send messages to the phone and get a one shot track I can use during the game. I could send out a message, "Call phone" or something and then the other person would pick it up at any point in the game.

I send a message out, I was not told it was Rake because I didn't know about the "lynch the person and get their stuff"

I asked him immediately how he got "Ryu's" phone.

Immediately after this, I was told my phone was stolen and I could not post in the conversation with him anymore.

Okay there was a lot a lot of content I missed, but let's start here:

@Bold and underlined: Why are you still not sure what the phone fully did? If you actually had additional abilities with the phone besides calling Rake before you say it was stolen why are you still talking in uncertains about it, shouldn't you be able to see what Bard told you in your PM still?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Other people confirmed they have useless **** as well.

I can confirm we also have a (as of now at least) useless flavor item for what that's worth.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I wanted his mindset on what he did to me in a single post so I could understand it, I did not like his earlier play and explained why I was more ok with what he did.

As of right now, I'm not seeing the content as much as before outside of his reads somewhat and an idea of where he stands. I am unsure if the ideas Ryker brought up, valid reasons to not like the slot I might add, are considerable in face of his experience. Spak is a new player, and I am trying to understand if it is scum or town driven, and it is very hard with new players.

Asking for permission, could be uneasiness with new faces around and not sure what to do.

Not having the best for reads but still trying to make content could very well be someone who doesn't know how to do this.

This is my issue with the slot and why I am more willing to call it a town lean, the honesty and his play looks far more like someone who is lost rather than someone who wants to hide and not be noticed.

However, I cannot ignore what Ryker has posted since to be frank, it is valid that it could be viewed in a scum light. I'd be willing to keep an eye on him but I am not certain if I would label him as scum right now. I had a valid reason to question his early game play, you did as well. I dropped him for a town lean because I viewed it as new player play.

It's great that this came out of you because it's more than we've had previously from you but you go from good to bad to good to bad in your read without making up your mind or coming to any real conclusion and that's been your MO this entire game so far. If you had to guess, right now, without back-doors: What alignment is Spak.

Like i'd love to give you credit for finally speaking up in that giant wall, but you only did it on pure self-defense because we all shook it out of you by force and that does nothing to ease my distrust.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also

If anybody out there has the power to steal things and stole that phone: Now is the time.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Alright here's the deal with Ryu/Rake:

Rosalina was Red Ryu, Town Amnesiac Tracker.

Red Ryu is Raziek and started with a phone that could allow him to receive messages, although it wasn't specified what that entailed.

He also started with a gamecube controller which I suspect is probably a junk/flavour item. I don't like how Rake is using this item as part of his basis for being on Ryu as iirc Ryker also mentioned earlier that he has a junk item with no discernable purpose.

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems pretty obvious to me that these two roles interact via their cell phones. Specifically, Ryu's role receives the results of the Amnesiac Tracker. Ryu probably is telling the truth about getting a one-shot track ability once Rosalina died which is probably a mechanic in place to buff the amnesiac tracker a bit should it die early.

Rake got Rosalina's items when Rosalina died, so he inherited the cell phone. Ryu was being a dumbie for being suspicious of how Rake got the phone as it was pretty clearly laid out for him.

With the amnesiac tracker dead, the two cell phones changed their function to a neighbour ability for whomever happened to possess them. This was also most likely a pre-planned role interaction.

The only part of all this that doesn't make sense is the convo being randomly cut off, but I have a feeling that is the result of a role that steals items likely being in the game and stealing Ryu's phone.

In all of this, Ryu looks like he's being oblivious to what's happening around him but I don't see scum intent at any point and I think he's been honest.

However, Rake was very opportunistic in jumping at Ryu for his role doing something different than he claimed even though I think it's obvious why that happened, and then throwing random points such as Ryu possessing a useless item onto his case. Rake comes off as overzealous scum who overextended in thinking he could mislynch Ryu off this role stuff, and I think he is scum.

Vote: Rake

This is interesting. But it's a bit presumptuous on details. (aka if you stole that phone to know these for sure, now is the time yeah?)

The problem with Ryu isn't believing he has a phone that had those properties, it's that he's already scummy and it doesn't actually clear him to have the phone when it's only proven ability is to neighborize and there's a confirmed Indy faction in the game. It doesn't feel out of place for an Indy to get both second hand track results and be a neighbor as a power, and based on how Ryu's been acting this game (entirely isolated from everyone else) that's what I've been betting he is.


I agree Rake's approach to this whole thing has been less than stellar as well though, especially trying to push the non-use item as a point of contention while claiming even he himself didn't know what his phone did when he got it, that's some hypocritical **** right there.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

**** okay unproven and un-Orbo discussed theory time, but I just had what could be a HUGE realization about this Dayphase:

At least one of Ruy and Rake is town.

My question to that is:

Why?

We're currently playing in a game with the unique luxury of having a mod-confirmed Independent faction.

And what we're objectively seeing is Rake making an immediate extremely hard push for something that seemingly would be easier to discuss with the details up front. Instead he decided to frontal attack Ryu and ask him for details instead of coming forward with his own first. Like he was looking for extra information from Ryu to prove something beyond just what most of us were curious about.

Ryu is the most isolated slot in the game, and is downright scummy but doesn't make sense paired with any partners.
Rake came in like a bullet like he had an ulterior motive to already be pushing Ryu, plus the convo mysteriously stopped as soon as Ryu tried to call.

This **** is Mafia vs Indy or I will eat my British constable hat. Or at the very least, it's Mafia vs who they think is Indy.

I like this Kantrip fellow.

@ #HBC | Laundry Weigh in on Rake?
@ Wots All This Then? You still think we should lynch Ruy?
@Both What do we do with J?

The question isn't whether we should lynch Ruy: we definitely should at some point. But whether it's wise to lynch Ruy at this juncture.


Literally everyone: I want your opinions on this, because it could hella shape how the rest of this game plays out. I want to know
1) If you think my theory holds weight
and
2) Who you'd rather see dead if I'm right

Including Orbo because I haven't discussed any of this with him rofl

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Like it makes sense because Ryu has no reason to lie about gaining a tracker ability or having his phone power as Indy if he thinks he can be more Town by doing so, but as soon as he did that Rake came in and tried to end him. If I were scum looking at that at the start of D1 with the way Ryu's been about his claims I'm not at all surprised if that's what happened.

@ #HBC | Ryker
@ #HBC | Laundry
@ #HBC | J
@#HBC | Dancer
@ Kantrip
@Maven89
@Fandangox
@ Spak

I want everyone's opinion on this. Nobody gets to not take a stance, no matter what you think of it.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Like it would help explain a lot of the double standards here as well

Also dislike kantrip saying essentially: well if ryker can have useless ****, then so can ryu and therefore moot point. Like thats kinda a handwave since ryker and ryu are you know, two different roles and all. Just cause ryker has useless **** doesnt suddenly redeem ryu having useless ****.

 

[Spak]

I just started searching for what the present might be, but then I realized that I didn't want to search through 13 pages of 30-60-page threads.

Anyways, I'm on my reread of D2.

 

[Spak]

Summery p. 20-23

Spoiler

Rake Pressures Ryu right out of the gate, says that he won't explain why he's pushing Ryu until Ryu talks about "it". Wots says Ryker was redirected and never questioned if he was lying about targeting Gheb. Ryker then asked if anyone was roleblocked last night, which got no response. Rake takes Ryker's question of if Ryu messaged anyone (in which Ryker votes for Maven, and that happened after he was accused of redirecting attention) and says that's the reason he's voting Ryu (messaging someone isn't a good reason to vote for them). (Most scummy intent thus far: Rake for the badly explained, uncalled for pressure on Ryu)

The which restriction exchange was unimportant, so I'll skip that.

Wots said that the jailer was the only roleblocking entity, J points out that it's a logical fallacy, then Rake points out Ryu's post that says "I can get messages sometimes" and calls for everyone to vote Ryu for that. Wots says that the one roleblock role was a silly assumption to make, and I state that there could be more than one jailer, which is then said to be unlikely by Wots. Rake then asks J who's scum, and I find the Berserker role. Ryker emphasizes J's logical fallacy point, and then Ryker (to the rescue) sees that Rake has not elaborated anything significant on the Ryu vote whatsoever. Rake then states that his Ryu vote is because he said he only got messages (which is a insignificant difference). (Scummy intent: Rake)

Rake reads seem pretty safe, then asks why someone would want reads from him (pretty suspicious). Ryker is still re-reading, provides info on how he thinks I am being too defensive but am new, and how Rake is null. He also provides us with a wonderful picture. Ryker asks if Rake thinks that the distinction between messages and calls is worth a lynch, then says that he likes Fanny. Wots says we need a full claim and votes Ryu. In his re-read, Ryker points out that Rake's push on Wots was very weak. J says he wants to dig his teeth into Maven more, has to re-read Laundry, and calls Dancer mechanical.

Ryker responds to Laundry's question if he's town (why would Ryker say he isn't?) and I post a vote order on Rosa for the previous day. J explains why my questioning of everyone's motives behind the Rosa swing is ineffective, then Dancer and J talk a bit about is "mechanical" behavior, before Ryker responds with his J and Dancer reads and I respond to the question of J. Wots questions why I thought Maven would have more to gain from not killing Gheb than killing him, and I respond that it's not much more than a gut feeling. J pushes me farther to figure out where my head's at, and asks about my opinion on the Wots, Maven, and Ryu slot. (Rake isn't here)

Dancer has an elaborate speech on his reads, and states that he wants J to talk to him about the Maven scum lean. Ryu explains last night that he could call and see who picked up, and Rake was on the other side. He asks Rake to explain his vote on him. Ryker then says he's on the bottom of page 7 and that Ryu is garbage based on asking null questions, and how he really doesn't like Rake's voting D2 and although it's fair, it was too premature of a claim. Dancer points out that J hadn't re-read D1 before the Maven pressure. Ryu said he only received the info about calls in the night phase. J talks about Ryu trying to be buddy-buddy and states that as a reason for disliking Ryu. (Rake still not here)

Dancer support's Wots' read on Ryu and says that's the same way he feels. J accuses Dancer of town leaning the people who agree with him. Ryu re-clarified that he wasn't told about calling until the night phase. Ryu asked why we don't have town leans hammer and J responds with how it was a quick wagon-snap. Ryker begins to feel uncomfortable with the Ryu vote and unvotes. J says he "hasn't had much a problem with Rake this game" and Ryu is in the "'will lynch' pile", then says Rake is a town lean (based upon not having much of a problem with him) and Ryu is a scummy lean. Wots asks for clarification of why Ryker is uncomfortable with the Ryu vote, and Ryker says he's a disgusting punching bag, then asks for reads. Ryu gives reads, Wots is as "place holder" vote with absolutely no elaboration. Ryker says the Ryu lynch is a freebie. Ryu points out Rake shouldn't get a free town pass for doing nothing and asks for elaboration from J. (Still no Rake)

Dancer talks about how he thinks Mav and Fan are town reads, then asks why J asks and asks J to answer his question. I talked to J about my reads on Ryu at his request. J asks for places where Dancer started town-reading Maven and why he likes Fanny's play. J asks about mine and Ryker's slot reads, and Dancer replies with a slight town read on both. J then goes on to talk about how Dancer has "too easy" town reads. Ryker talks about his reads as of page 8. J is playing with the idea of Dancer scum and Ryker protests. J defends my slot being town and says that "other fish look tastier to fry". Ryker likes Laundry's catch-up D1 and calls J's #351 "completely unrelated to the game at hand". He then votes Maven for being opportunistic D1. (Where did Rake go?)

J is talking about how both of his games are exploding and Dancer takes the push against him happily. Ryker talks about Maven and Ryker doesn't want to lynch me anymore (based upon J's talk). Ryker says that a Rake scum is more likely to be the experienced player. Laundry questions Ryu some more. I'm not alone in my want to question Gheb before the NK (so did Laundry), so that's reassuring. J asks for updated reads on Maven, Ryu, Rake, and Wots from Laundry. Rake questions Laundry's questions. Laundry explains why he targeted Ryker with the orb. (Did Rake die? I also just realized Maven hasn't been on for D2 thus far)

Confirmed, Ryker has junk in his inventory. Laundry justifies his team read early-game because of lack of info from everyone. Wots doesn't seem to like Ryu's vote, or Ryu for that matter. Laundry responds to the question posed to Dancer from J. J theorizes based on the apparent Wots/Ryu rivalry (which isn't hugely evident). Laundry thinks that the J analysis of Ryu and Rake is accurate, calls Dancer's play "garage" (with the typo included). Wots said he can't accept Ryu as town, which will probably come back to bite him in the event that Ryu flips town. Dancer elaborates on his reads, then Laundry thinks that Ryu is REALLY scummy, then states he doesn't care for Maven. (Seriously, where did Maven and Rake go?)

That took a while. So far, I think that Rake is scummy. I haven't seen anything town about his play early in D2 (push on Ryu with little reasoning, questioning why someone would want his list of reads, etc.) and then he just kinda left after he saw pressure building up on him. Maven has been MIA for a while, but based on his D1 play that I went back and skimmed over, he seems pretty town. Dancer, Fanny, Ryker, and Laundry seem like town reads to me. J seems a bit scummy because of the Dancer push and lack of reason for the Maven push, but definitely not Rake-level. Ryu seems more town now that I go back and read D2, he just seems to be taking a lot of hits (some of which are undeserved) and not being able to provide as much content as he would otherwise because he's trying to defend himself puts him in a bad spot.

Vote: Rake (at the moment)

Anyways, I'll probably come back and do more of this after lunch.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

You forgot to bold it

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That's three on Rake, right?

 

[#HBC | J]

So I have re-read and I'm gonna go back into some things. I stayed up all night and compiled some things that I felt I would like to go over and also to officially "make my mark" on the game. What is going to be in this post is my feels and notes throughout my re-read and also quotes I want to bring up to emphasize what I am talking about.

-Pg. 4 I dislike Laundry's push on Spak. It seemed like a newbie Spak being pushed into a corner (which I will continue to say. This is the part of the argument I stopped being intrigued by the interaction and more just moving on to why Laundry was pushing it the way he did earlier. I also would like to bring up the fact that Rake liked this post for later.

-Early D1 WATT has been asking a bunch of questions that just seem to be of someone trying to look like they are scum-hunting. I just don't see much drive to find scum in the early phase. This post is an example of how a good chunk of the questions WATT poised earlier. I look at these as a sort-of scum-tell because it is something I do as scum to try and feign my town meta of "Look at me, I'm doing things!" especially in early day phases. The reason I dislike this even more is because none of the questions have a solid follow up besides "kay thanks" or "okay" without any real follow up.

-Pg. 5 Is an early phase page that makes me look at Ryu with a scratching noggin and also where a lot of my early *shivers* of scumRyu come along. Here is where a bit of Ryu buddying me comes along, but that's already been talked about quite to a bit of an extant by Laundy and Myself. On this page there is a post I would like to highlight:

Vote: Spak

my reads atm,

1. Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/Jdietz Hydra)
2. Gheb_01
3. Maven89
4. Kantrip
5. Spak
6. RosalinaSGS
7. FandangoX
8. Red Ryu
9. #HBC | Dancer
10. #HBC | Ryker
11. Rake the Macaroni Jabroni
12. Laundry
13. #HBC | J

green = town
light green = town lean
white = neutral
orange = mafia lean
red = mafia

Within this post, he posts quite a few reads based off of nothing and does not even explain them. Even his Spak lean did not even get much because in the previous posts he only stated that he wanted to "question" Spak, but where did the WATT town-lean come from? Rake? (especially since that seems to have changed drastically) When I questioned him about it, he leaned on the "it's a gut feel" read and to me it looked more like he was throwing arbitrary reads out to the people who seemed to be posting the most at the time.

**Point of Interest** I am liking Maven in the early game phase for calling Ryu out on his posts. I am leaning towards disliking Ryu a lot more on this read-through and liking Maven because of it. If Ryu were to flip scum, it would give Maven some good brownie points in my book.

Continuing in this line of thought going onto Maven and remembering why I disliked him early. He seems to be the sort of player that centralize a lot of the game around themselves especially with the wording. Plus he lashes out at people who vote him, but in a self-preservation way rather then a question as to figure out the "why" behind it." This is one of my tells of finding Indys and so far it has been pretty full proof. I think I have failed to explain that when I am talking about Maven, I am seeing him as one of my biggest Indy reads. He does not seem to make sense with who I am looking at for the scum-team. I will probably continue on this later if I deem it necessary but Indy's are the least of my concern honestly with nothing but a theory I have regarding them *which will be talked about later*.

-Laundry/Ryker fascination is curious to me and especially with the early interaction of Alex throwing Drew the crystal orb. If I had to bet on which of them are scum it would definitely be Ryker, but I do not think either of them are necessarily leaning scummy. Laundry would be one of my stronger town-reads this game. His play seems to be trying to find scum and instead of when scumLaundry tries to capitalize on easy pressure targets. Now this may seem contradictory to what I said earlier regarding his Spak push and that is what rose some early concern about his slot. However, him not pouncing on me early on actually leads into his favor because scumLaundry would have been all over my lynch to knock me out early rather than later. I don't agree to everything he does but I am not really seeing scumLaundry.

This post in particular is what makes me feel a bit more comfortable with Laundry. The Spak wagon was actually gaining speed at the time of this post so I feel that a scumLaundry would have continued his pursuit.

*thumbs up on the WATT vote* Which is where he went to next.

Ryker I will talk about when his posts come up more in the thread, but I wanted to comment on Laundry.

I finally found the post that made me curious about Sword's:

Expending on two thoughts of interest: Spak and J.

J is currently leaning scum to me as a feel he's maintained a presence without actually doing too much of anything. The three main points of concern is his weird attack on Maven, the "event votecount" he kept, and just a lack of original content. Already went over Maven. The "event votecount" thing isn't scummy by itself but coupled with a lack of original content it reads more like filler than genuine usefulness. I just feel like if J was town he would be more interested in that WoT vs. WL thing then he seems right now.

BTW J's stance on Spak is not original content. It's a purely logical stance that one could have arrived at as either alignment so it's not telling either way.

Spak is a conundrum to me as I feel like he's done a lot of things I don't imagine newbie scum would do but if he was anyone else I would lynch him in a heartbeat. Regardless of his alignment I'm convinced that he has worded his posts to deliberately garner symphony which raises a red flag with me. HOWEVER I've seen newb town do this as well as newb scum so I can't call it either way. Also again what newbie scum ADMITS to things like "trying to lay low" and "trying to redirect attention." If he's scum then he's a master manipulator so props to him for that but that seems unlikely.

Actually writing this post has made me feel slightly better about him. He can go up to a town lean.

Also for the recorded I have yet to form an opinion on WoT, which is a thing now I suppose.

Here is when people have come in and made cases for both slots already and this seems to be Sword's just taking what seem to interest the rest of town as the "majority" scum-reads and tacking on his $0.02 onto it. But let's break it down as to what I am talking about.

He constitutes one of my questions towards Maven as scummy when I was asking why he unprecedentedly brought up the fact of Alphas and not letting them take control of the thread which hadn't even really occurred in the thread. It looked like Maven was trying to throw FUD at Ryker for no reason whatsoever besides his entrance post. That struck a chord with me.

He actually tries to use my "ring vote-count" as a reason to look at me as being scummy but does not explain how. Besides it being a really weak reason, it looks like Swords is really reaching to try and come up with "original" content on me which he then in turns tries to call me out on in the next post by saying that my read on Spak at the time is just "logical" and someone else had already brought it up which was not the case actually. The only person to have said anything on Spak looking townie was Laundry and the consensus at the time was that Spak was looking scummy to WATT/Ryu/Rake/Maven/Rosa. The irony of his statement is that my read on Spak was not "un-original" but the opposite whereas his next scum-read is on, guess who? Spak.

There is a red flag in this post as well especially when Spak is being talked about. The red/bolded bit really worries me because Swords seems to not really care about finding scum, but it seems like he is trying to look for easy options on who to lynch which were at the time J/Spak and not much else. But the "regardless of alignment" is something he does for both of his scum-reads. He tries to qualify his responses with outs and excuses for after flips. I can say for certain that from my perspective this looks like what Swords is trying to do. Blanket statements like "regardless of what he flips, I can still call them out on this" is incredibly scummy to me because it is not full committing to the read and also giving an out.

So yeah as of pg. 8, I am standing by my Sword's scum read.

Continuing on pg. 8, This post really irks me in it looking like opportunistic WATT hopping onto my wagon. The reason I say it is opportunistic is that WATT comes in and votes me after the dislike for my slot comes around enough for people to vote me. (Fanny/Dancer/Gheb's approval) Also going on at the time WATT's wagon is gaining steam with votes from Laundry/Rake/Gheb which makes me also have a theory. I am thinking currently of a WATT/Dancer scum-team makes a lot of plausible sense. Especially when combined with the course of actions in pg. 8 especially when looking at my slot from a Town perspective. WATT also was on the "let's follow Jmeta" train for D1 until I ask him a question and he starts being backed into a corner so he latches onto my slot.

Here is the vote-post from pg. 10

With 13 players in all, it takes 7 to lynch!

Vote Count 1.3​

1. Wots All This Then? (3): Rake, Laundry, Gheb
13. #HBC | J (4) : Fandango, Dancer, Wots, Maven

Not Voting: Kantrip, Spak, Red Ryu
DEADLINE IS SET FOR AUGUST 7th, 12:00PM PST!​

This post speaks volumes to me because especially under my theory, this is evidence of actions from Fanny starting the wagon for Dancer to jump onto with WATT being able to try and sway the wagon from me onto him. Currently, looking at a WATT/Dancer scum-team. I would also say that Dancer and WATT have a clear disconnect from each other that they have not been commenting on each other in the thread. Dancer did not comment to length on the WATT push which strikes me as odd because he had enough to speak in detail on myself and Spak when WATT was also a cause for concern slot. From these flips I get, a stronger townLaundry read (from his WATT push), an even stronger townSpak read (From Dancer/WATT's collective disgustingly opportunistic push), which puts me ahead in terms of reads for D3 if my theory is consistent.

I see Fanny posting, I am nodding along, I don't get the uber hard-on everyone has for that slot though. I mean a lot of what Fanny says is just "well yeah", but he is dogging my slot and not really doing much else. *shrug* I don't see him fitting into my puzzle of WATT/Dancer currently, but I keep re-reading his posts and keep saying "...and?". I think this may be a playstyle thing though, because in another game that Fanny himself brought up I was able to nail him in a heartbeat when he was scum. However, that was D4. I'm gonna continue to watch Fanny because everyone just seems to be okay with him being town. For now, town by association that I will want to re-look at later.

I am still not feeling Rake scum and it really makes me go "...?" to the people that are reading him as scum. I stand by my reasoning that no one has given me a reason to look at Rake yet and I stand by that even more on re-reading D1. Speaking of people who make me feel good is Kantrip as well. Rake and Kantrip just seem to have a similar way of making me think they are not scummy with just none of their posts just striking a chord with me. They are logical, coherent, feel like townies trying to find scum and not reeking of mal-intent from other slots this game that come to mind. Only problem I have with these slots, which is ironically identical, is their presence comes in short bursts and then they disappear for pages on end. However, when they do post I like them.

-Pg. 12; Found my next point of interest against Dancer.

I'm less sure on J now. I'm not thick headed, if everyone tells me that J doesn't play Day 1 then I'll begrudgingly give him a pass for a lack of content. I still hold that what content he has made seems forced, attempted attack on Maven especially. It's one thing to not want to overextend, it's another to actually try to attack one for the reasons he did. Furthermore J has yet to explain why he did what he did, instead just stubbornly defending his lack of content.* HOWEVER I agree with WL that Maven's Ryker push was premature and his later jump onto J seemed week. I liked Maven previously but some of his recent actions have worried me and I'll be lying if I said that I was fully comfortable being on the same wagon with him. Still though my vote will sit here until J returns, as I don't know of a better place to put it atm.

I have formed an opinion on Fandangox however some people have actually started to mount a bit of an offense on him, and I want to play the J card and see how that goes before dirtying the waters. I don't want to interfere with anyone else's pressure.

Rosa has been a very low impact player so far this game and seems to have been playing it somewhat safe. I could easily see him as scum.

I can see the reasoning behind the RR case but I really need to read him over again to determine rather I actually think he's scum or just making weak plays.

WATT is another player that I REALLY need to read over again because I've honestly have failed to check the whole 180 and thus have failed to form an opinion about it. Don't worry guys, I'll get to it I swear!

Kantrip's entrance was indeed good.

*While I did call the way J defended himself "stubborn" I just want to clarify that despite my negative description of his actions I don't actually think it's a scummy defense, more so just an anti-town defense.

Oh, and Spak. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and I don't plan to push him but are we ABSOLUTELY sure that he's town guys? I totally understand that brute honesty that went into his defense but right after that was done he's existed in complete "Look, I'm helping!" mode.

Please, just someone reassure me that this is just a normal thing for newbie town's to do and that it has no malicious motive behind it.

This reads post is Dancer playing the "let's sit on the fence and look like I'm doing things and having read's this game!" I'm gonna hone in on certain things real quick so I'm beating a dead horse with the "I dislike Dancer/his reads are balls passive" He starts to lay back heat on me after my wagon starts losing appeal, he gives himself outs to RR/Rosa, but the curious one is WATT where he fails to take a stance on WATT, but with every other read he's got an opinion. Here he says verbatim:

"...and thus have failed to form an opinion about it. Don't worry guys, I'll get to it I swear!"

Then he continues on to almost beg that people keep Spak on the table, but does nothing to push this besides "Come on guys, don't let him get away!" which goes along with my theory that Dancer isn't scum-hunting, but just appealing to the masses. Literally, with all his reads and him saying "idk where to go" but does nothing to further his scum-hunt or anything. He just sits on reads and harps on them when asked.

Another thing that bugs me about Dancer is that he keeps using this phrase which he even has used on D2 which is "I want to lynch J for information" which is a cop out reason to lynch and something I find scummy. Information lynches are fine in my book, but when it is becoming pretty much the only and sole reason to lynch someone on D2, then that is something I find bad. D1 is the day for informational lynches and inactive lynches. D1 I was barely here and using the ploy of my lynch being "informational" was garbage because there were way more slots where everyone had opinions on especially when the mass opinion on me was "J is just being J". So what information was he hoping to obtain from that?

Here's another point to my theory of a WATT/Dancer scum-team:

I would be okay with a Ryker lynch if only because of policy. Would prefer him to just replace out though.

I literally have no stance on WATT and will only lynch him if the J or Ryker wagon fall flat and we need a lynch.

One lynch is for "information" while the other is a policy lynch. Yet, he continues to say he has no stance on WATT, but by saying this he knows that WATT is up for a lynch. That brings again that disconnect of Dancer not willing to put a solid feel on WATT and distancing himself from that plus offering up "solutions" against his lynch.

Moving on, why does Rosa "like" all of my posts, but then says I'm scummy. I did not get her lol.

Rosa wagon snap did not have much evidence of anything honestly besides just a bunch of quick pile on votes. The only one that stuck out to me was Kantrip's who said "I am voting Rosa because she is one of my scum-reads" rather than everyone who was like "lol deadline" and that actually gives Kanty more town-points in my opinion because I do not feel scum would be that set on saying they were backing a read of theirs if they "knew" it was going to flip unfavorable to their statement.

And those are my notes from D1. I am gonna wrap up this post so I may continue onto D2, but I have been here for a majority of D2 so I am just going to stick to the latter portion where I left off.

Scum: WATT/Dancer
Town: Spak, Laundry, Kanty, Rake
Indy feels: Maven/Fanny
What do: Ryu/Ryker

So I am deadset on the WATT/Dancer train and will be gunning for them for blood at this juncture. I am pretty comfy with my town reads currently and really see no reason to discuss them. Earlier I was talking about Indy feels around Maven and I still stand by that he would be my biggest read for Indy and then I would have Fanny be next in line for that. I do not get the overwhelming town-vibes from Fanny and just a lot of him saying the same thing a lot like a parrot since people have called him town for that earlier. Maven is more because of his explosive lash outs when people call him scum (I.e. Gheb v. Maven), but I do not get scum-team vibes from either. I am also not really looking at indy's because although we have proof that an indy exists in mod-confirmed info and what appears to be their way of killing (poisoning via Laundry claiming it). However, Laundry has claimed to be cured so I the Indy is already having a foot in the ground regarding their kills.

With the What Do category is simply put, I don't know where they go. That's my null pile because I do like quite a bit of what Ryker is posting but I have no clear reason to call him town. Plus I dislike the Rake push so that puts him in a unfavorable light in my eyes, especially with WATT being on it as well. Ryu's claim is janky and also just meh to read and when reading D1, his early play did read as scummy but then near the end he became more genuine and I know scumRyu is much more disgenuine. I am just uneasy to put that slot onto either side. I would lean probably scum on Ryu and town on Ryker on gut though.

I am operating under the idea that with a killing Indy the scum-team would make sense to be a 2 person team with an Indy floating around. So that's why me reads are as such.

Anyways, I'm tired and need to take a breather before moving onto D2 because this post took up a large chunk of my night/morning and it is now the afternoon I am realizing when I started this post at like 5am my time.....lordy...

 

[#HBC | J]

Forgot my vote: I'm officially adding Dancer to the table as plausible lynch options for toDay.

Vote: #HBC | Dancer

 

[#HBC | J]

@ Wots All This Then?

You asked for my opinion on the "theory" you posted and I think it is really reaching for a reason to keep the focus of toDay on Rake/Ryu. So you are saying both are scum independently solely based on the claim shenanigans? I find that very hard to believe and am incredibly skeptical to that notion.

 

[Kantrip]

Why don't you dislike me for my push on Rake if you dislike Ryker for it? Do you think Rake's play Day 2, his jump on Ryu in particular, has been as townie as Day 1?

 

[Kantrip]

Also why is WATT guilty of asking questions that didn't go anywhere but Rake's Day 1 questions were fine?

 

[#HBC | J]

Why don't you dislike me for my push on Rake if you dislike Ryker for it? Do you think Rake's play Day 2, his jump on Ryu in particular, has been as townie as Day 1?

I didn't say I disliked Ryker for it. I say I dislike his push mainly due to his insistence on only now one of me/Rake going toDay. It's really narrow-minded on it and I have talked to him about it with Laundry in particular. His D2 has definitely not been as townie as his D1, but I've said what I've thought about his play. I don't find his hop onto Ryu scummy.

Also why is WATT guilty of asking questions that didn't go anywhere but Rake's Day 1 questions were fine?

That's not even a fair comparison. Rake actually followed up his posts with legnthy responses with reads/paragraphs/etc. whereas WATT has not at all. That's the difference as to why WATT is guilty where Rake is not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's great that this came out of you because it's more than we've had previously from you but you go from good to bad to good to bad in your read without making up your mind or coming to any real conclusion and that's been your MO this entire game so far. If you had to guess, right now, without back-doors: What alignment is Spak.

Like i'd love to give you credit for finally speaking up in that giant wall, but you only did it on pure self-defense because we all shook it out of you by force and that does nothing to ease my distrust.

Town over scum.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Okay there was a lot a lot of content I missed, but let's start here:

@Bold and underlined: Why are you still not sure what the phone fully did? If you actually had additional abilities with the phone besides calling Rake before you say it was stolen why are you still talking in uncertains about it, shouldn't you be able to see what Bard told you in your PM still?

Yes I am not sure what it did outside of calling people o thought it let me get messages, not get them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not send them'

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

**** okay unproven and un-Orbo discussed theory time, but I just had what could be a HUGE realization about this Dayphase:




My question to that is:

Why?

We're currently playing in a game with the unique luxury of having a mod-confirmed Independent faction.

And what we're objectively seeing is Rake making an immediate extremely hard push for something that seemingly would be easier to discuss with the details up front. Instead he decided to frontal attack Ryu and ask him for details instead of coming forward with his own first. Like he was looking for extra information from Ryu to prove something beyond just what most of us were curious about.

Ryu is the most isolated slot in the game, and is downright scummy but doesn't make sense paired with any partners.
Rake came in like a bullet like he had an ulterior motive to already be pushing Ryu, plus the convo mysteriously stopped as soon as Ryu tried to call.

This **** is Mafia vs Indy or I will eat my British constable hat. Or at the very least, it's Mafia vs who they think is Indy.




The question isn't whether we should lynch Ruy: we definitely should at some point. But whether it's wise to lynch Ruy at this juncture.


Literally everyone: I want your opinions on this, because it could hella shape how the rest of this game plays out. I want to know
1) If you think my theory holds weight
and
2) Who you'd rather see dead if I'm right

Including Orbo because I haven't discussed any of this with him rofl

Get out of here with your Indy scare.

 

[Kantrip]

I'll have to read back again after work. I don't recall noticing Rake's questions amounting to anything whereas WATT has been more present actually forming reads and responding.

Besides the Rake/WATT reads being inconsistent, I like that post from J. It's nice to see his Dancer distaste laid out and his points are actually making me consider giving Dancer another look.

I want to see stuff from Day 2 as well but based on that reread I don't want to lynch J toDay

 

[#HBC | J]

Uh it's not really a scare since its mod-confirmed.

 

[Kantrip]

Although there's a mod confirmed indy I'm not really worried about it until we get a mafia flip and have to worry about connections. While it's possible that Rake went so hard with bad reasoning because he has info from being scum that condemns ryu as a different faction of scum, I don't really care to think about it until I've gotten Rake's flip

 

[Spak]

Page 24-25 Summary:

Spoiler

Laundry has caught up and he's telling Ryker to ask him questions, then says that he doesn't know who scum would be if Ryu flipped town. He then says that he thinks Ryu is lying and asks the counterquestion to Ryker's question. He also stated that Ryu hasn't pushed any slot of his own free will other than mine and J's. Ryker then calls out Ryu for playing Symphonia instead of elaborating on Rake. Wots then states his distaste of Ryu more and Ryker wants to move on from Ryu so that we get more info on other people in addition to Ryu. (No Rake/Mav)

J then asked about the theft and Ryu/Rake phone message scenario and how Ryu can send a message and get an item stolen the same night. Ryu said that he sent a message asking how Rake got Ryu's phone, and then the phone was stolen. Also, apparently the action could have been performed 24/7 according to Ryu (so why doesn't Rake just call the other person?), then Ryu questions Ryker. J then butts into the middle of the Ryu questioning, further perusing the "easy read" of Dancer. J says that the situation is "too silly not to be faked" regarding the whole Ryu phone story. Ryu then said to ask Bard, who as host and wanting to stay as much out of the debate as possible, likely wouldn't answer. Ryu then asks J about his accusations, then goes to sleep after sending out a Lucario pic.m (I think they're dead)

The Ghost of Gheb then speaks. RIP.

Laundry then votes Ryu because Ryu pulled the "ask the mod" and said something about and indie party. Then Mav comes (FINALLY!) and asks J to talk to him. He asked J to repsond to one of his posts and had a nice, long elaborate post about his reads thus far. He then asked Rake if he could go into more detail about the conversation. After that, sarcasm from Laundry and Maven wants a vote count. Maven then pointed out how there are a lot of people on Ryu very suddenly that weren't yesterday, and Laundry had a nice 5-reason post in response to Ryu. He then said that he thought that Ryker and Gheb were the scum team D1, but that was obviously not true because RIP Gheb. He then unvoted and wanted Ryker to talk to him, as he agrees Ryu shouldn't be the only talking point today. (I don't even think Rake in this plane of existence anymore).

Maven starts out page 25 by him correcting a botched post, and Ryker likes Maven getting off of his soapbox. Ryu decided to finally come back from Symphonia and showed where Laundry implied Ryu was an indie slot. Ryker then became the birthday kid with the paper crown and asked other people to get him the list. Maven then gets back on the soapbox for a minute and has a post looking back at how Ryu's play was completely normal except for the claim of the stolen phone (which honestly I don't find that unbeleivable, since the theft could have come after they started the call). Then, Ryker starts to catch on to Rake's grime. (Who by the way, might have gone to an alternate dimension)

Wots then says that nobody should ask for metadata, Dancer comes in and responds. Ryu then comes with a long post to defend himself now that he's out of Symphonia, and talks a good amount on his reads based on more recent events. Ryker then requests for Ryu to avoid posting images every time, and he stops. Laundry then responds to Ryu's post and counterargues a bunch of the points. Laundry calls out Rake to come and he doesn't. Ryker thinks Maven is looking better, and talks more about some reads. Maven asks Ryu questions and talks about Wots' meta post, while Fanny makes an overview of his reads thus far. Laundry says that the Dancer push is suspicious, along with answering the #570 question and agreeing with Fanny's J analysis. In the meantime, Wots is just spouting off rules from the OP. Ryu says he wants more on Ryu and Rake (although he said he doesn't want Ryu to be the only focus of conversation) and Fanny thinks J and Ryu aren't scumbuddies.

Not much has changed other than Rake ascending to the 4th Dimension and I think I have enough of a handle on the game to stop the summery now. Going through and summarizing that many posts is like pulling teeth.

 

[Spak]

Oh yeah, I forgot the bold:

Vote: Rake

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

[quote="Kantrip, post: 19904794, member: 174288"Turns out Ryu actually claimed that he was informed his phone was stolen when the conversation cut out.[/quote]I'm aware. What I'm saying is the phone's not destroyed so why isn't it usable?

I don't like it because he only displayed reservations and started thinking "hmm maybe there's an explanation to this" after I pointed it out in thread and effectively deflated his angle. He was essentially forced to pull back. It doesn't help that he's changed his stance to a very convenient "I don't know, could go either way." It only makes me feel more confident that he is scum.

Congrats, he was forced to reconsider when someone pointed out that his point of view was wrong. I didn't realize making mistakes was scummy, why didn't we lynch WoTT for it again?

I'm still unconvinced. I need more than this. You keep pointing to his actions and saying "they're scummy!" but I just don't see it. I don't think disagreeing with reads is inherently scummy, you need to show me why. I don't think what he did with Ruy this phase is inherently scummy as he may simply have thought he had a bingo when he didn't and overextended for it. I could just be being dense as well. Lay it out for me, in one post, why Rake is scum over just a null.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

@ #HBC | Ryker could you do that for me too: lay out scum!Rake in a single post?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Rake did nothing day 1 to merit a town read. His entrance day 2 is extremely grimy. His backpedaling is in light of it not catching and awkward and should not be considered redemption.

I can talk more in-depth later, but I'm at work right now.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Like it makes sense because Ryu has no reason to lie about gaining a tracker ability or having his phone power as Indy if he thinks he can be more Town by doing so, but as soon as he did that Rake came in and tried to end him. If I were scum looking at that at the start of D1 with the way Ryu's been about his claims I'm not at all surprised if that's what happened.

@ #HBC | Ryker
@ #HBC | Laundry
@ #HBC | J
@#HBC | Dancer
@ Kantrip
@Maven89
@Fandangox
@ Spak

I want everyone's opinion on this. Nobody gets to not take a stance, no matter what you think of it.

I want you to look at this through Rake's eyes based on what he's claimed. Between the end of D1 and the start of D2:
-He receives a phone as a result of hammering Rosie as this was one of Rosie's items.
-At some point, this phone activates during the night.
-He receives a message, probably stating that it was Ruy, and was asked how he had the phone.
-The phone messages get cut off again inexplicably.

That looks strange, especially given that the guy on the other end claimed yesterday that his phone could only receive messages. Sure, level heads would've just opened the phase by asking a litany of questions, but Rake thought he had a bingo and most people with bingos don't give their targets an inch. Why, then, is it scummy for him to walk into the thread and immediately try to push the slot if he thinks he has something close to a guilty?

That's my biggest problem with this angle of the Rake push. I think Rake's approach makes sense from a townie perspective, even if I think he was somewhat moronic about it, and I can't buy it as a scummy thing alone without significant persuasion as a result.

And, say Ruy's the mafia in this situation, is Rake still an Indy? Do you think Ruy has the things he has while also being a poisoner?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I been dealing with trying to get **** for my phone to get fixed all day, I'll get at thread later.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Rake did nothing day 1 to merit a town read. His entrance day 2 is extremely grimy. His backpedaling is in light of it not catching and awkward and should not be considered redemption.

I can talk more in-depth later, but I'm at work right now.

Take my most recent post in mind and respond to that then.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Summery p. 20-23

Spoiler

Rake Pressures Ryu right out of the gate, says that he won't explain why he's pushing Ryu until Ryu talks about "it". Wots says Ryker was redirected and never questioned if he was lying about targeting Gheb. Ryker then asked if anyone was roleblocked last night, which got no response. Rake takes Ryker's question of if Ryu messaged anyone (in which Ryker votes for Maven, and that happened after he was accused of redirecting attention) and says that's the reason he's voting Ryu (messaging someone isn't a good reason to vote for them). (Most scummy intent thus far: Rake for the badly explained, uncalled for pressure on Ryu)

The which restriction exchange was unimportant, so I'll skip that.

Wots said that the jailer was the only roleblocking entity, J points out that it's a logical fallacy, then Rake points out Ryu's post that says "I can get messages sometimes" and calls for everyone to vote Ryu for that. Wots says that the one roleblock role was a silly assumption to make, and I state that there could be more than one jailer, which is then said to be unlikely by Wots. Rake then asks J who's scum, and I find the Berserker role. Ryker emphasizes J's logical fallacy point, and then Ryker (to the rescue) sees that Rake has not elaborated anything significant on the Ryu vote whatsoever. Rake then states that his Ryu vote is because he said he only got messages (which is a insignificant difference). (Scummy intent: Rake)

Rake reads seem pretty safe, then asks why someone would want reads from him (pretty suspicious). Ryker is still re-reading, provides info on how he thinks I am being too defensive but am new, and how Rake is null. He also provides us with a wonderful picture. Ryker asks if Rake thinks that the distinction between messages and calls is worth a lynch, then says that he likes Fanny. Wots says we need a full claim and votes Ryu. In his re-read, Ryker points out that Rake's push on Wots was very weak. J says he wants to dig his teeth into Maven more, has to re-read Laundry, and calls Dancer mechanical.

Ryker responds to Laundry's question if he's town (why would Ryker say he isn't?) and I post a vote order on Rosa for the previous day. J explains why my questioning of everyone's motives behind the Rosa swing is ineffective, then Dancer and J talk a bit about is "mechanical" behavior, before Ryker responds with his J and Dancer reads and I respond to the question of J. Wots questions why I thought Maven would have more to gain from not killing Gheb than killing him, and I respond that it's not much more than a gut feeling. J pushes me farther to figure out where my head's at, and asks about my opinion on the Wots, Maven, and Ryu slot. (Rake isn't here)

Dancer has an elaborate speech on his reads, and states that he wants J to talk to him about the Maven scum lean. Ryu explains last night that he could call and see who picked up, and Rake was on the other side. He asks Rake to explain his vote on him. Ryker then says he's on the bottom of page 7 and that Ryu is garbage based on asking null questions, and how he really doesn't like Rake's voting D2 and although it's fair, it was too premature of a claim. Dancer points out that J hadn't re-read D1 before the Maven pressure. Ryu said he only received the info about calls in the night phase. J talks about Ryu trying to be buddy-buddy and states that as a reason for disliking Ryu. (Rake still not here)

Dancer support's Wots' read on Ryu and says that's the same way he feels. J accuses Dancer of town leaning the people who agree with him. Ryu re-clarified that he wasn't told about calling until the night phase. Ryu asked why we don't have town leans hammer and J responds with how it was a quick wagon-snap. Ryker begins to feel uncomfortable with the Ryu vote and unvotes. J says he "hasn't had much a problem with Rake this game" and Ryu is in the "'will lynch' pile", then says Rake is a town lean (based upon not having much of a problem with him) and Ryu is a scummy lean. Wots asks for clarification of why Ryker is uncomfortable with the Ryu vote, and Ryker says he's a disgusting punching bag, then asks for reads. Ryu gives reads, Wots is as "place holder" vote with absolutely no elaboration. Ryker says the Ryu lynch is a freebie. Ryu points out Rake shouldn't get a free town pass for doing nothing and asks for elaboration from J. (Still no Rake)

Dancer talks about how he thinks Mav and Fan are town reads, then asks why J asks and asks J to answer his question. I talked to J about my reads on Ryu at his request. J asks for places where Dancer started town-reading Maven and why he likes Fanny's play. J asks about mine and Ryker's slot reads, and Dancer replies with a slight town read on both. J then goes on to talk about how Dancer has "too easy" town reads. Ryker talks about his reads as of page 8. J is playing with the idea of Dancer scum and Ryker protests. J defends my slot being town and says that "other fish look tastier to fry". Ryker likes Laundry's catch-up D1 and calls J's #351 "completely unrelated to the game at hand". He then votes Maven for being opportunistic D1. (Where did Rake go?)

J is talking about how both of his games are exploding and Dancer takes the push against him happily. Ryker talks about Maven and Ryker doesn't want to lynch me anymore (based upon J's talk). Ryker says that a Rake scum is more likely to be the experienced player. Laundry questions Ryu some more. I'm not alone in my want to question Gheb before the NK (so did Laundry), so that's reassuring. J asks for updated reads on Maven, Ryu, Rake, and Wots from Laundry. Rake questions Laundry's questions. Laundry explains why he targeted Ryker with the orb. (Did Rake die? I also just realized Maven hasn't been on for D2 thus far)

Confirmed, Ryker has junk in his inventory. Laundry justifies his team read early-game because of lack of info from everyone. Wots doesn't seem to like Ryu's vote, or Ryu for that matter. Laundry responds to the question posed to Dancer from J. J theorizes based on the apparent Wots/Ryu rivalry (which isn't hugely evident). Laundry thinks that the J analysis of Ryu and Rake is accurate, calls Dancer's play "garage" (with the typo included). Wots said he can't accept Ryu as town, which will probably come back to bite him in the event that Ryu flips town. Dancer elaborates on his reads, then Laundry thinks that Ryu is REALLY scummy, then states he doesn't care for Maven. (Seriously, where did Maven and Rake go?)

That took a while. So far, I think that Rake is scummy. I haven't seen anything town about his play early in D2 (push on Ryu with little reasoning, questioning why someone would want his list of reads, etc.) and then he just kinda left after he saw pressure building up on him. Maven has been MIA for a while, but based on his D1 play that I went back and skimmed over, he seems pretty town. Dancer, Fanny, Ryker, and Laundry seem like town reads to me. J seems a bit scummy because of the Dancer push and lack of reason for the Maven push, but definitely not Rake-level. Ryu seems more town now that I go back and read D2, he just seems to be taking a lot of hits (some of which are undeserved) and not being able to provide as much content as he would otherwise because he's trying to defend himself puts him in a bad spot.

Vote: Rake (at the moment)

Anyways, I'll probably come back and do more of this after lunch.

Why do your reads always magically transition into the wagon du jour the moment they start cropping up?

 

[Spak]

Why do your reads always magically transition into the wagon du jour the moment they start cropping up?

I attempt to make convincing arguments for why my vote is against someone that I believe has scummy intent, so that naturally provokes conversation.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Oh boy. The great wall of @ #HBC | J .

This is honesty such a big garbled mess of things I like and things I hate that I can't really just give it a single summary but I will try to be curt as I don't wanna go paragraph by paragraph with this thing.

I think you gave voice to my earlier distaste from Sworddancer, pretty significantly actually. I did not like how that slot entered the game by pushing the newbie, yourself, and the three inactives. I didn't like how he was calling for an inactive lynch less than 48 hours into the phase nor pushing down you and Ryker. I think, however, his play did improve as the game went on and I lost interest in him. Your WoTT/Dancer theory, as a result, intrigues me, as I think your reasons for it are rather well-founded.

However, I think your Fandangox read is pure paranoia, as is the Ryker aspect as well. I'm also not a fan of the indy emphasis but I at least understand it. Personally speaking, if it is the poisoner like I think it is, I would rather just remove the indy as a pure strategical point to remove a kill but we'd have to bingo on the indy for me to follow that strategy and laying it out now seems...too contrived when you don't have scumflips in hand at all.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I attempt to make convincing arguments for why my vote is against someone that I believe has scummy intent, so that naturally provokes conversation.

Yeh that's not a real answer.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I want you to look at this through Rake's eyes based on what he's claimed. Between the end of D1 and the start of D2:
-He receives a phone as a result of hammering Rosie as this was one of Rosie's items.
-At some point, this phone activates during the night.
-He receives a message, probably stating that it was Ruy, and was asked how he had the phone.
-The phone messages get cut off again inexplicably.

That looks strange, especially given that the guy on the other end claimed yesterday that his phone could only receive messages. Sure, level heads would've just opened the phase by asking a litany of questions, but Rake thought he had a bingo and most people with bingos don't give their targets an inch. Why, then, is it scummy for him to walk into the thread and immediately try to push the slot if he thinks he has something close to a guilty?

That's my biggest problem with this angle of the Rake push. I think Rake's approach makes sense from a townie perspective, even if I think he was somewhat moronic about it, and I can't buy it as a scummy thing alone without significant persuasion as a result.

And, say Ruy's the mafia in this situation, is Rake still an Indy? Do you think Ruy has the things he has while also being a poisoner?

The ****ing indy scare is ******** and I wanted to harp on it when I got home.

Your entire thought process checks out,... if Rake had something that looked like a bingo. What Rake has is something that looks like it requires elaboration. It's not anything resembling a bingo unless you spin it really hard.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

The ****ing indy scare is ******** and I wanted to harp on it when I got home.

from who, j or wott?

Your entire thought process checks out,... if Rake had something that looked like a bingo. What Rake has is something that looks like it requires elaboration. It's not anything resembling a bingo unless you spin it really hard.

Honestly I wouldn't count out the power of assumptions here. There's just enough activity going on with information that Rake doesn't have for him to think that Ruy was lying when he had no business to. It does look like it requires elaboration but Rake did open by voting him with the line "explain". That looks stupid to everyone else but not to the person in his crosshairs, for obvious reasons. I'm pretty sure he also had a post saying to pile on votes onto Ruy to try to get him to crack. I don't see scumminess from these actions.

 

[Spak]

Yeh that's not a real answer.

What do you want me to answer, then? I make a read and people seem to like it.