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Reverse Dolphin Slash and priorities for Marth.

Nightblade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
260
First, as far as advanced techs go, what would be a general order to learn them in as far as effectiveness AND simplicity?

Second, reverse dolphin slash is when your opponent is in front of Marth, and you hit Up+B and the opposite direction at the same time so you hit the opponent in front of you but launch backwards. Why is this a good thing? Is it more powerful, have less lag, an alternative to a bair ledgeguard (jumping off the ledge and hitting your opponent with a bair), or just simply give you more space between you and your opponent if you miss?
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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First, as far as advanced techs go, what would be a general order to learn them in as far as effectiveness AND simplicity?

Second, reverse dolphin slash is when your opponent is in front of Marth, and you hit Up+B and the opposite direction at the same time so you hit the opponent in front of you but launch backwards. Why is this a good thing? Is it more powerful, have less lag, an alternative to a bair ledgeguard (jumping off the ledge and hitting your opponent with a bair), or just simply give you more space between you and your opponent if you miss?
It's not any more powerful than the dolphin slash, but the dolphin slash has a sweet spot, and it's easier to hit when you reverse it. Stand something like 1 to 2 feet away from your opponent when you do the reverse dolphin slash and you should sweet spot it. It's excellent for KOing space animals and it comes out very quickly so they rarely see it coming. It's not so useful for edgeguarding--stick with ledge-hopped BAIRs, neutral B, fsmash, and dtilt.

As for the techs--

1) Short-hopping is essential for Marth's aerial game and shouldn't take too long to master.

2) Dash-dancing is easy to learn and fairly useful for Marth, moreso when combined with other techs like wavedashing, foxtrotting, and pivoting.

3) Jump-cancel all your grabs. This is very important for Marth since his grab game is huge, and it's not difficult once you get the timing down.

4) L-cancel all your aerials. This is relatively difficult but not once you get used to the timing.

5) Wavedashing with Marth is not that difficult and is very useful for spacing and mindgames.

6) SHFFLing is less useful for Marth than other characters but should still be learned. As a tech it's slightly harder than wavedashing.

7) Ledge-hopping BAIRs is important for Marth's edgeguarding game, and ledge-hopping NAIRs or FAIRs important for returning to the stage aggressively. Ledge-hopping NAIRs is probably the most difficult.

8) Short-hop double FAIR is one of Marth's more difficult techs but is extremely useful for chaining FAIRs across a stage.

9) FAIR to DAIR--not sure if this is a "tech" but it is a very important combo for Marth. Chain FAIRs into DAIRs for low % kills. It's hard not to kill yourself when you start doing these. In general if you double-jump immediately before using the DAIR you'll be able to come back to the stage.

10) Pivoting is very difficult and useful only if you can do it consistently. But if you can do it consistently it is very useful, as you can pop out fsmashes while dash-dancing.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something but there you go.
 

Pye

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Acualy, I read somewhere that a reverse dolphin slash acualy has more knockback then a non-reversed one. Also, I like ending combos with reverse aerial upBs. Not only does it look really flashy, but it pretty much guarantees a KO if you don't have your second jump for whatever reason (so you can't end with a dair).

Don't forget reverse upB out of shield! Not many Marths remember/use this, but it can really catch an opponent off-guard, meaning their DI will be wrong and they'll probably eat the maximum knockback a reverse upB has. It's blindingly fast, as if Marth isn't already fast enough.

As for your second question, Shai Hulud answered that beautifully, so I'll point you back to his post. He's got it pretty much 100%. I'll add that dash dancing is not "fairly" useful to Marth though, it's pretty much his entire game (it does have to be combined with other tricky movements, like he said).
 

spikey151

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
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Bay Area, CA
Actually I disagree about the dash dancing thing. It just depends on your playing style and how you decide to use it.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
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La Jolla, CA
Well...

The dolphin slash is the fastest move that marth has. So, if they're at a relatively high damage, it gets them off the edge and sets them up for edgeguarding.
Times to use this move:
-Out of a shield, taking advantage of your opponent's lag.
-Out of a fair combo, if they're too high for a dair spike.
-Out of a dashdance to punish a missed grab or attack

Don't use this move at low percents, because then they're going to recover faster than you.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
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The reversed dolphin slash has more horizontal knock back so it's more effective than a regular one. It's mainly use for its low starting lag to punish a medium-high damage opponent and get a kill. It can also be used directly out of the sheild making it another option instead of grabbing an opponent that's at a high percent.
 

soap

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i was messing around today and found a really good use for the reverse upb. youre with your back to the ledge and you down throw, instead of just throwing your fsmash out and hoping they dont sweetspot grab the edge you drop down and then reverse up b, and if it catches em this acts like a spike at kills at ridiculously low percents
 

Fefnir Cerveau

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i was messing around today and found a really good use for the reverse upb. youre with your back to the ledge and you down throw, instead of just throwing your fsmash out and hoping they dont sweetspot grab the edge you drop down and then reverse up b, and if it catches em this acts like a spike at kills at ridiculously low percents
Sounds neato. Imma try this too.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
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Rochester, NY
Reverse dolphin slash is the best way to finish a match. Why? It looks so freakin cool. I've actually seen someone use it as an edgeguard. He jumped off the edge, so he was below the ledge when his opponent was returning, and reversed it so he hit his opponent and grabeed on the edge. its extremely tricky to do tho.
 

madskillz

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i've been playing as marth for awhile and i never heard of actually using the reverse dolphin for a combo. When would be the best time for using it? I've tried it several times against my friends after reading this, but i either miss or acidently hit them in the direction of the reverse.
 

Shai Hulud

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i've been playing as marth for awhile and i never heard of actually using the reverse dolphin for a combo. When would be the best time for using it? I've tried it several times against my friends after reading this, but i either miss or acidently hit them in the direction of the reverse.
It's not that good for combos, though there are some moves that may lead into it. It's really situational and it's pretty difficult to sweetspot someone who's in mid-air with it. On the ground forward B will lead into reverse dolphin slash against most characters.

Reverse dolphin slash is mostly a finisher. It can be used at any point, including during a dash, so people usually use it during a dash dance or something.
 

Shai Hulud

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also, not to sound too noobish, but what exactly is foxtrotting? I know of everything you stated earlier, but not foxtrotting.
Oh, whoops. I should have defined that, I guess.

Foxtrotting is essentially dash-dancing in the same direction. Some people would take issue with defining it that way, but whatever. After the initial dash animation ends, you just dash again. You can foxtrot at two different speeds, depending on how hard you press the control stick to dash. In the slower foxtrot the dash distance is lower, which does have its uses.

To combine foxtrotting with dashdancing just tap the control stick when you dash instead of holding it.

Foxtrotting makes Marth slower but it increases his options for attacking compared to a regular dash. You can CC a regular dash to any attack, but the spacing is tricky as you slide along the ground, and it's very predictable as well. When foxtrotting you can begin a dash-dance at any point, so it's easier to get grabs, and you can immediately launch aerials in either direction. You can also pivot tippers if you have the skill.
 

Razgriz

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It's not that good for combos, though there are some moves that may lead into it. It's really situational and it's pretty difficult to sweetspot someone who's in mid-air with it. On the ground forward B will lead into reverse dolphin slash against most characters.

Reverse dolphin slash is mostly a finisher. It can be used at any point, including during a dash, so people usually use it during a dash dance or something.
So would you recommend NOT dropping off the side and trying to finish people with this? Is it worth it?
 

Adi

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If you're close enough to them to hit them with a dolphin slash you might as well just b-air, or spike them. It's much less risky.
 

Shai Hulud

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I disagree, completely Dolphin slash is better.

a bair can be di'd easier and a spike is more riskey then a dolphin slash
Dolphin slash is very risky. There's the chance that you won't reverse it, resulting in guaranteed death. There's a chance you won't sweet-spot it, resulting in your opponent very likely recovering faster than you do. There's a chance you will sweet-spot it but you jumped too far out to recover anyway. There's a chance you'll miss completely, leaving you suspended above the abyss while your opponent recovers and/or kills you.

If you can do it close to 100% of the time, then by all means do it. But if you have a relatively low success rate there are much safer alternatives.
 

Aesir

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Dolphin slash is very risky. There's the chance that you won't reverse it, resulting in guaranteed death. There's a chance you won't sweet-spot it, resulting in your opponent very likely recovering faster than you do. There's a chance you will sweet-spot it but you jumped too far out to recover anyway. There's a chance you'll miss completely, leaving you suspended above the abyss while your opponent recovers and/or kills you.
thats where playing smart comes into play and wtf @ you a chance you wont reverse it? >_> yeah maybe if your tech is ****ty.

If you can do it close to 100% of the time, then by all means do it. But if you have a relatively low success rate there are much safer alternatives.
that can be said with any tech.
 

Shai Hulud

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thats where playing smart comes into play and wtf @ you a chance you wont reverse it? >_> yeah maybe if your tech is ****ty.


that can be said with any tech.
But it's more likely a player will have trouble with mid-air sweet-spotted reverse dolphin slash than he will with a simple ledge-hopped bair. You knew what I meant. I'm just saying most people aren't going to be able to perform the move effectively enough to warrant the risk.
 

shadydentist

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A dolphin slash is really not that risky. Reversing it is easy to do, and its trajectory is always the same, so its not too hard to learn how far you can go. The sweetspot is very easy to tell (right in front of you, but not directly over you). I am confident that with a little practice, anyone can do it consistently. But its uses in edgeguarding are limited. The only scenario I can imagine is if you're right under the ledge and an aerial will take you too far down.


I don't know why people are even comparing dolphin slash and bair.... one hits in front of you, one hits behind you. Use whatever's appropriate. I think bair is better for edgeguarding, but a dolphin slash is more appropriate out of a combo.
 

Aesir

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But it's more likely a player will have trouble with mid-air sweet-spotted reverse dolphin slash than he will with a simple ledge-hopped bair. You knew what I meant. I'm just saying most people aren't going to be able to perform the move effectively enough to warrant the risk.
sweeet spotting it is easy, and unless you dropped to far off the edge you won't be missing the edge. thats were playing smart comes into play. >_>
 

Tha L@wl

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For me reverse dolphin is a very useful tech. to use out of shield...its very quick and has good knock back..its good if your opponent just a bit off your grab range...
 

Dark Sonic

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how about we all admit that the best part of reverse dolphin slash is that its ****ING baddass as hell
Amen to that. It just looks really cool when you kill someone with it. It's a very nice kill move for punishing lag due to its very low start up lag. It's situational, yeah, but you can do it straight out for the shield or a dash making it a nice defensive move.
 

julealgon

Smash Rookie
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Jan 23, 2007
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Where is Dolphin Slash's sweetspot exactly? Is there more than 1 moment it hits 100%? I think I remember sweetspoting it when I was below my opponent. Is this possible? Or is it only right in front/behind you, like what happens with a reversed one?
 

Fiiii

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As far as I know, the reason the reverse Dolphin Slash is used is because it makes it easier to hit an opponent with the sweetspot. So you'd be better off using the reverse than the normal Dolphin Slash if you want that kind of hit.
 

GreenMarth

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Mar 21, 2007
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When you do marths Down Air on the ground, like fast falling onto your opponent then you're on the ground and Marth stays there on the ground completely open, is there any way to cancel this...(glitch??)


THX...
 

Dark Sonic

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When you do marths Down Air on the ground, like fast falling onto your opponent then you're on the ground and Marth stays there on the ground completely open, is there any way to cancel this...(glitch??)


THX...
You just need to L-cancel. It's not a glitch it's just a tech to lower the ending lag. If you perform an aerial and land on the ground before the aerial is over you'll experience the landing lag (time you can't do anything) of the specific aerial. If you click L, R, or Z right before you hit the ground you'll cut that lag time in half. If you airdoge from the L or R or perform another aerial from pressing Z then you are not in the lag of your old aerial and don't have any lag to cancel.

Please use the search function and don't post something in a topic that's not related to the topic.




Edgeguarding with the reverse up B is really usefull for hitting opponents that like to recover low, like Link, Samus, Marth, Fox, and Falco because even if you don't sweetspot them the'll likely be too low to recover. Even if they're high enough to recover you'll beat them to the edge so you can ledgehop spike them or just edgehog.
 

GreenMarth

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yeah i wasnt aware what l-canceling was but i knew it was something like that thanks


and before i was aware of the reverse dolphin blade i died so many times from facing the wrong way lol thx for the thread...
 

ComboTurtle

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yeah i wasnt aware what l-canceling was but i knew it was something like that thanks


and before i was aware of the reverse dolphin blade i died so many times from facing the wrong way lol thx for the thread...
why would u be facing the wrong way if u didnt know about it? just randomly dolphin slashing forward off the edge?
 
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