Rethinking a Crap Move: Sing

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Sing is bad. We have established that long ago.

Grounded sing is something you don't do. Ledge canceled is punishable, but is it completley useless? I think it can be used, and quite a bit, (that was being generous) you just need to know how to use it safely.

1.) Don't rise above edge level!
(You will get punished.)

2.) Don't go looking for sing oppertunities!
(Don't bait you opponent by stalling on the edge.)

3.) Use it once, no more!
(If you happen to miss, don't try it again right after.)

4.) Use max DI towards the edge while singing.
(Get ready to press shield because if you get spiked, you could tech it.)

5.) Use it at the right time!
(Use it only when you and your opponent are at the edge and when your opponent is open!)

There are a few things that can be done after landing an edge canceled sing from the ledge (in order of priority):
-Rollout (never thought you'ed be up here huh?)
-Rest
-Smash

These are not real combos, but are reliable ways to damage or kill your opponent. Most of them can be preformed at very low damage, while others at high damage.

The only reason I came up with this idea is because I don't think ledge canceled sings are comepletly flawed or useless. They are something that can be used maybe once a match and building up a bit more damage can help put you ahead of your opponent.

 

[*JuriHan*]

-F-air > Grab
-F-air > U-air
-U-air > U-tilt
-Drill > Rest
-Rest
-Drill > Grab
-B-air > Gimp

You didn't list the best thing to do after a successful edge cancel sing


- Reposition> Charged f-smash

/topic

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

You didn't list the best thing to do after a successful edge cancel sing


- Reposition> Charged f-smash

/topic

Assuming you're preforming this at low percents, you don't have time to charge a smash attack. That list of options are things you would likely do right off of the ledge at varied precents. I'll limit the list until i've tested each option for damage.

 

[illinialex24]

You don't have time for anything with sing. Hitting with the first wave gives you an advantage at about 200%.

 

[Noobicidal]

Assuming you're preforming this at low percents, you don't have time to charge a smash attack. That list of options are things you would likely do right off of the ledge at varied precents. I'll limit the list until i've tested each option for damage.

Sing, ledge grab, roll onto stage, charge smash.

Yeah, you do. You just have to make SURE that you're going to make them sleepy.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Go on the other side of them and then downsmash them if they have a crappy recovery.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

You don't have time for anything with sing. Hitting with the first wave gives you an advantage at about 200%.

This is 100% true.
The only problem is that this is about ledge canceled sings and not sing in general.

Sing, ledge grab, roll onto stage, charge smash.

Yeah, you do. You just have to make SURE that you're going to make them sleepy.

Well that depends on their damage, its a good idea if they're above 55%, but any lower than that you should go with a few aireals or a grab.

You should even be able to use rollout at low percentages safely.

 

[PND]

Rollout is usually the best bet for killing someone when they are asleep.

 

[SuSa]

My friend doesn't edgeguard my Jigglypuff anymore. He just goes to the middle of the stage and waits for me.

Let it be said, ledge canceled sing > setup for a gimp or LCS > rest for KO happened a little to often.

I never saw what was so bad about it...just don't be predictable and don't spam it trying to get it to hit.

 

[illinialex24]

My friend doesn't edgeguard my Jigglypuff anymore. He just goes to the middle of the stage and waits for me.

I hate people like that, they are so smart....

 

[SuSa]

It's amazing. I didn't expect him to actually be smart. :3

 

[SuperChoco]

Would sing have a more dominant role in 2v2?

I'm not sure about 1v1, I sometimes use it on the ground, but only if the opponet is dumb enough to run into.(It has happened!)

 

[PND]

2 vs 2 there is a more likely chance to hit it. I personally don't use it unless I'm jokingly sacrificing my partner to the other team. That being said, I've seen dapuffster hit a double ledge canceled sing -> rest before, so use discretion.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah Dapuffster ois pimp.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Would sing have a more dominant role in 2v2?

I'm not sure about 1v1, I sometimes use it on the ground, but only if the opponet is dumb enough to run into.(It has happened!)

Sing is great in a 2v2 because its a very easy move to land OoS. On a 1v1, an OoS sing is a bad idea because you only hit them with the first pulse, and guess what happens next?

 

[AndenHellseenkee]

Already!

Jigglypuff will always advance. LOL! Hopefully... only because she's my joint and I loved helping develop her in Melee.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Jigglypuff will always advance. LOL! Hopefully... only because she's my joint and I loved helping develop her in Melee.

It seems like there is not much more to explore with her. The metagame slowed down a while ago, and the only thing left that we can do for Jigglypuff is win tourneys and develop a better playstyle that can adapt to the harder matchups.

Jigglypuff can't get better, but the players can.

 

[CRASHiC]

It seems like there is not much more to explore with her. The metagame slowed down a while ago, and the only thing left that we can do for Jigglypuff is win tourneys and develop a better playstyle that can adapt to the harder matchups.

Jigglypuff can't get better, but the players can.

Isn't developing a better play style what a Metagame is?
A lot of smash players seem to think that a metagame is finding a new technique. If this were true, pokemon would not have the astounding ever changing metagame that it has today. A metagame is finding new ways to fight opponents.

The DDD vs. MK matchup is very back and forth. First we thought it was 60/40. We worked on it, made it 55/45. Then the MKs adapted, and it is back to 60/40 once again. That's a metagame. Not edge cancel infinite jumps, unless you can abuse that in a matchup, its not part of the metagame.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Isn't developing a better play style what a Metagame is?
A lot of smash players seem to think that a metagame is finding a new technique. If this were true, pokemon would not have the astounding ever changing metagame that it has today. A metagame is finding new ways to fight opponents.

The DDD vs. MK matchup is very back and forth. First we thought it was 60/40. We worked on it, made it 55/45. Then the MKs adapted, and it is back to 60/40 once again. That's a metagame. Not edge cancel infinite jumps, unless you can abuse that in a matchup, its not part of the metagame.

What I was saying was more along the lines of: Helping each player utilize Jigglypuff to her full potential.

What we currently know may be her final metagame; however, there is always room to expand.

 

[Prawn]

Guys, idk about you but my time using Jiggs in friendlies I've landed 2 sing>rests by just falling with sing outta nowhere and catching the opponent off guard, if you fall with it make them sleep when you're near the ground, you'll get out before they do.

Also, a surprise sing when they're hugging the edge and you're on the stage can sometimes work if you do it right before they make the move onto the stage as long as they don't predict and punish it.

Granted on a perfect day against an average player you can probably get 2 sings off if that a game(and probably not many more a set), but still, its a little useful.

 

[My Cat Owns]

Guys, idk about you but my time using Jiggs in friendlies I've landed 2 sing>rests by just falling with sing outta nowhere and catching the opponent off guard, if you fall with it make them sleep when you're near the ground, you'll get out before they do.

If you miss a single sing, or if you hit but your opponent wakes up first, jiggs is so light that even at 70% a fsmash from most characters can kill her. It's too risky to use like that.

 

[Prawn]

If you miss a single sing, or if you hit but your opponent wakes up first, jiggs is so light that even at 70% a fsmash from most characters can kill her. It's too risky to use like that.

Think about it, with you falling they CANT charge an fsmash or they'll fall asleep, at WORST you get a slightly charged or uncharged usmash if they predict it right and play it right.

 

[My Cat Owns]

Think about it, with you falling they CANT charge an fsmash or they'll fall asleep, at WORST you get a slightly charged or uncharged usmash if they predict it right and play it right.

even an uncharegd usmash will kill you as jiggs at ~80%.

 

[RhedKing]

Think about it, with you falling they CANT charge an fsmash or they'll fall asleep, at WORST you get a slightly charged or uncharged usmash if they predict it right and play it right.

In all honesty this isn't going to work on most competent players. Unfortunately sing's first pulse range is so poor that most attacks that don't feature hitbox will hit you while you get to do nothing. Even worse, people will just jump to meet you halfway and punish you. Sing is a very punishable move, so I don't recommend incorporating it in happy go lucky methods like this.


Still I love to see people consider incorporating sing into their play. I hope you guys find some great uses for the move, I tried, but I couldn't get huge progress. One point of note however is that sing initiates on frame 5(perhaps 6?) so it's great on tech chases.

Lastly sing connects with downed characters, so tripping someone to a sing is one method you can use.

 

[Prawn]

Lastly sing connects with downed characters, so tripping someone to a sing is one method you can use.

What are the percents of tripping on dtilt and down angled ftilt?

 

[GeneralWoodman]

What are the percents of tripping on dtilt and down angled ftilt?

its a lot more likely to trip with down-tilted f-tilt although d-tilt will put you in better positioning.
i don't know the exact numbers. nor will i think about them in the middle of a match, just simply react to a trip and act accordingly.

as for rhed king, you could probably manipulate a tech chase to the edge and then backflip jump...for di, and then sing to the ledge. still, these are all unlikely but can be useful

 

[Noobicidal]

its a lot more likely to trip with down-tilted f-tilt although d-tilt will put you in better positioning.
i don't know the exact numbers. nor will i think about them in the middle of a match, just simply react to a trip and act accordingly.

1. Angle of ftilt does NOT affect "tripping" percentage.
2. Ftilt can lead to a tech-chase assuming they miss the initial tech; it CANNOT do a traditional trip.
3. I have numbers for every character on this particular topic, and I'll update this post once I get home from class.

 

[Prawn]

1. Angle of ftilt does NOT affect "tripping" percentage.

Is this just for Jiggs or is it true for all characters?

 

[Noobicidal]

Is this just for Jiggs or is it true for all characters?

I assume it's for Jiggs only since angling her Ftilt doesn't affect KB or blast angle.

To clear up #3, I meant that I have "tripping" percents AGAINST every character while using Jiggs' Ftilt.

 

[RhedKing]

If i understand it right the only difference in down f tilt and f-tilt is the coolness factor against tethers. I always go for Up f-tilt, for the diagonal coverage.

Also, it's nice to see you again noob, I see you've done well here

 

[Noobicidal]

If i understand it right the only difference in down f tilt and f-tilt is the coolness factor against tethers. I always go for Up f-tilt, for the diagonal coverage.

Yeah, the hitbox is the only difference.

Also, it's nice to see you again noob, I see you've done well here

So it seems.

Also, the "percentages needed to put the opponent in a bad position unless they tech the ftilt" percents.

Jigglypuff - 44%
Game and Watch - 47%
Squirtle - 47%
Fox - 48%
Kirby - 48%
Meta Knight - 48%
Pikachu - 48%
Falco - 49%
Olimar - 49%
Zero Suit Samus - 49%
Sheik - 50%
Zelda - 50%
Ice Climbers - 52%
Peach - 52%
Toon Link - 52%
Diddy Kong - 53%
Lucas - 53%
Ness - 53%
Pit - 53%
Sonic - 53%
Luigi - 54%
Mario - 54%
Ivysaur - 55%
Lucario - 55%
Wolf - 55%
Captain Falcon - 56%
Ike - 56%
Link - 56%
ROB - 57%
Samus - 57%
Wario - 57%
Yoshi - 57%
Charizard - 58%
Ganondorf - 58%
King Dedede - 59%
Snake - 59%
DK - 60%
Bowser - 61%

 

[Mike B]

Singing in doubles and having Sheik to wake you with needles can give a surprising advantage.

 

[Ninja Puff]

Team setups with Sing involved are pretty effective (as well as Rest). I've found that a good Match up with Jigglypuff is Luigi. Similar style of attacks and his fire can get you out of rest or sing easily if need be.

 

[Dre89]

K I know I'm a noob and not respected here but I just wanna throw something incredibly impractical out there.

I was wondering if it was possible to stall the match with sing. As far as I know, when a char is in the short wake-up animation after being put to sleep, they can be put to sleep again before they can do anything (correct me if I am wrong). The problem is they usually get a frame advantage so you never get to do this.

If what I said is true, would it be possible that if you punished a dodge with sing, catching them with the last frame (I realise how hard this would be to do), or a LCS, so you get the advantage, would it be possible to re-sing them by jumping up to a certain height, then singing in the air so as you fall you catch them again with the last frame (they'd probably need to be over 50% or something), and just repeat the process.

Again I realise I'm a noob and it's a stupid theory, but if it is possible to do (I'm not sure if it is), if someone mastered it they could use for various reasons like getting safe damage on someone if they had a flower on their head, fatigueing a pokemon, or stalling for whatever purpose.

Sorry if it was a waste of a wall of text.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

K I know I'm a noob and not respected here but I just wanna throw something incredibly impractical out there.

I was wondering if it was possible to stall the match with sing. As far as I know, when a char is in the short wake-up animation after being put to sleep, they can be put to sleep again before they can do anything (correct me if I am wrong). The problem is they usually get a frame advantage so you never get to do this.

If what I said is true, would it be possible that if you punished a dodge with sing, catching them with the last frame (I realise how hard this would be to do), or a LCS, so you get the advantage, would it be possible to re-sing them by jumping up to a certain height, then singing in the air so as you fall you catch them again with the last frame (they'd probably need to be over 50% or something), and just repeat the process.

Again I realise I'm a noob and it's a stupid theory, but if it is possible to do (I'm not sure if it is), if someone mastered it they could use for various reasons like getting safe damage on someone if they had a flower on their head, fatigueing a pokemon, or stalling for whatever purpose.

Sorry if it was a waste of a wall of text.

No one said you weren’t respected here. Don't think that just because you're new you can't think of anything useful.

If you are going to stall you are probobly winning, and if you have a frame advantage with sing you should just go for a kill.

However this can be used if you each have at least 2 or 3 stock remaining and you want to hold your opponent until the last 5 seconds (when you make your move and put them behind a stock.) and end the game without risking a fight through another stock.

At about 200% you get a frame advantage on Mario (God knows if this varries between characters.). If you are tied with more than 1 stock and you manage to raise their damage high enough, this may be very practical, but slightly situational.

I am not able to access my Wii for the time being, but can someone test if you can keep an opponent to sleep this way?

Good idea Dre, I never thought of this.

 

[Dre89]

I'm pretty sure you can, I got two Puffs and a Link, and had one sing Link, then had the other sing him after but timed it so it was done slightly after so if if Link slept longer than normal I would know he got copped both sings. (This was done at 0% if it matters).

This is probably already known, but what I found is that you can't sing him again while he's asleep, but you can get him in the waking up animation before he can do anything. However I wasn't touching the Link controller, so I'm not sure if it's possible to skip the wake-up animation by pressing attack or something, if it isn't, then repetitive singing should be possible.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

I'm pretty sure you can, I got two Puffs and a Link, and had one sing Link, then had the other sing him after but timed it so it was done slightly after so if if Link slept longer than normal I would know he got copped both sings. (This was done at 0% if it matters).

This is probably already known, but what I found is that you can't sing him again while he's asleep, but you can get him in the waking up animation before he can do anything. However I wasn't touching the Link controller, so I'm not sure if it's possible to skip the wake-up animation by pressing attack or something, if it isn't, then repetitive singing should be possible.

You're testing methods are flawed, let me help.

1. Go to training mode with P1 as Jigglypuff and CPU as Mario.

2. Set Mario's Damage to 300% (just to make shure.) and put his action to jump.

3. Put Mario to sleep and use sing as he starts to wake up.

Result: If Mario avoids the next rest right after waking up he can escape. If he can't avoid it, he won't be able to escape (as far as we know.).

 

[Dre89]

I tested it and unfortunately they can attack out of it before you can re-sing them, but that was probably already known.

M-Wuz-Here was it you that brought up the idea of attacking a shield on the egde so when they tumble you can fair or rest them? I thought maybe it would be possible to sing them and they might fall to their doom whilst asleep.

Although that probably wouldn't KO them at very low percents because they'd wake up in time, depending on the stage certain chars may not be able to recover, or at least you could edgehog them, gimp them, or stage spike them because of the bad position they're in.

Just another thought, not sure if it's practical or actually even works though.

Edit: Sing is probably too slow for this to work.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

im way ahead of you. moves that cause damage but have no knockback (fox's lasers, charizards fair) have the ability to increase the time that sing puts an enemy to sleep. in doubles using jiggz and fox u could possibly rack up 100 or more damage in 2 vs 1 through blaster spam, then upsmash with fox for the kill thus saving the hassle of an annoying metaknight in 2 vs 1

 

[Hydra.]

Could we get a video of possible ways to use this by any chance?