Result-based Matchup Chart [1.1.13 - 30.6.13]

[Tesh]

and so it begins...

why are coney, kiraflax and koolaid missing? I don't think I understand the criteria for being part of this study.

 

[BlueXenon]

You can use Shaky vs Trela from whobo 4 for Lucario vs Ness.

 

[Dabuz]

It would probably be less controversial to instead fill out the chart MUs based on where in bracket matches took. For example you would include matches only in top 8 at locals (perhaps top 4 at small locals), top 16 and regional, and top 32 in nationals. (Just throwing out numbers so don't quote me here). This way you don't have people being bias arguing about who is and isn't in while it's still a good indicator of high/ top level matches to base this chart on since you're going to see the good players in that top 4/ 8/ 16/ 32.

 

[Ishiey]

WHOBO4 isn't included in this because it's not from 2013.

Dabuz's idea is also pretty solid imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As much as I hate to say this, I have played Denti in tournament a plethora of times in within the past few months. I do recommended they be considered in this chart.

They will be if you can link me to results.

If both player vouch that something happened. You should probably consider it. I don't know why so many tournaments leave bracket data out of the results, but it doesn't look like its gonna change soon.

This is a good idea. Though I would like a third attendant of the tourney to confirm the result to be absolutely sure. Either way, I will use this approach from now on in order to increase the amount of results. Thank you for the input!

DRN should be there for ZSS and Mc Pe should be there for wolf

why are coney, kiraflax and koolaid missing? I don't think I understand the criteria for being part of this study.

I haven't found any noteworthy results from DRN.
McPee does have some results but it was never clarified whether his results were with Wolf or with MK. Somebody - ideally he himself - would have to tell me and somebody else would have to confirm it. If that happens I will add his results

Coney has no results. I had KiraFlax as a high level player for both ROB and Pit. However, the same thing that applies to McPee also happened with him. I'd need more information on when he used which character. Koolaid is in the MK list. You must've missed it.

It would probably be less controversial to instead fill out the chart MUs based on where in bracket matches took. For example you would include matches only in top 8 at locals (perhaps top 4 at small locals), top 16 and regional, and top 32 in nationals. (Just throwing out numbers so don't quote me here). This way you don't have people being bias arguing about who is and isn't in while it's still a good indicator of high/ top level matches to base this chart on since you're going to see the good players in that top 4/ 8/ 16/ 32.

That would completely skew the whole thing at japanese tournaments where seeding is way different than what we are used to and I don't think that anybody would call bias on me treating all results equally - they are based on the skill of the players after all.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I am assuming the same issues apply to 4god for results? Nothing useful or at least nothing recent enough? Just curious.

On a side note, what are these strange seeding methods used by the japanese?

 

[infiniteV115]

Can you post/PM me the results list for the ZSS:Snake ratio? It's surprisingly bad lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I am assuming the same issues apply to 4god for results? Nothing useful or at least nothing recent enough? Just curious.

On a side note, what are these strange seeding methods used by the japanese?

Correct @ 4GOD

About the japenese seeding thing, there's just a number of things that players from the USA and from the EU would consider "random".

 

[T0MMY]

@Nicole and T0mmy

The factors of individual strengths and weaknesses only weigh heavily on matchups where results are few. The more diverse and numerous the empirical basis of a matchup number is, the less strengths and weaknesses will matter. For example, some people will probably think that Seibrik beating quiKsilver's ZSS at Apex netting +3 points for MK is too much with all the ZSS experience Seibrik has. However, the number and diversity of results we have of that matchup serve as a qualifier and prevent such extreme cases from skewing the matchup number. At the end of the day, whether Seibrik beating quik gives MK +3, +2 or only +1 point doesn't really have much of an impact on the overall matchup number and the proportion of matchup points will stay almost exactly the same.

Such factors generally only really come into play when a matchup has very few results. But numbers for these matchups are generally questionable by nature. Nobody would conclude from the 1 | 1 of Wolf vs MK that the matchup is even. It it were 10 | 10 though, it would be a different story - but then individual strengths and weaknesses would barely affect the number at all, as pointed out above.

TL;DR.
But did catch something about such matters come into play when there are few results.
If this is based on data then don't let bias ruin it, post it when there are enough results, imo. Keep it pure.

 

[infiniteV115]

Gheb, y u no update ZSS:Snake data? I thought I PM'd the inaccuracy

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You did but I'm not updating things bit by bit but as much at once as possible. So for now I am waiting to see whether certain people can confirm the accuracy of other results and make possible additions before I update the chart. I didn't forget about it or ignore it though.

 

[Bloodcross]

i went falco the past couple weeks, you'll see results of dat falco icon.

it's fine though. kool aid never goes pit anymore and coney doesnt play. kira not listed is kinda lulz

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Australians results completely ignored when several of the players you mentioned (mostly Japanese, what a surprise, Gheb) are equal in skill to our players of the same level?

This isn't patriotism or anything, it seems like you went through each character and for mid tiers like Donkey Kong and Dedede you applied the formula of "Top = known american representative, High = japanese player who uses that character because japan is the best forever" when the rest of the world have players that are just as good, if you just dug a little deeper than the scene you already know about.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

i went falco the past couple weeks, you'll see results of dat falco icon.

it's fine though. kool aid never goes pit anymore and coney doesnt play. kira not listed is kinda lulz

Alright, as long as it's clear that you've used Falco instead of MK in a particular set it will count for the Falco list. I just need to know for sure that you've used him.

Kira is not on the list because there are no results I know of where it's clear which character he used. I'd need somebody to clarify that before I can add his results for ROB and Pit.

 

[Nicole]

what you should do with this thread is take the best ppl from each region, whether they are on the highest level or not. like i think its super stupid to not have lux on the list for ICs, but y'all don't know that because you dont play him. so you should consider who plays what characters in each region and consistently gets good placings (not amazing, just good is fine, say top 13 in 60+ tournies and top 7 in 30+...depends on the char tho, a top 13 finish is way more impressive for ganon than falco, but you're not an idiot so i'm sure you get what i'm saying). anyway, its fairly inaccurate to compare the best player from jersey with the best player from, say, arizona, and then decide that the person from az isn't good enough to be on the list, when naturally they are as they do very well in their region.

i.e. lux is the best ice climbers in the mw, therefore he should be on the list. vinnie and nakat are pretty much on the same level on the ec, so they should be on the list. i cant think of any wc ice climbers, but if there was one, they would be on the list. south has esam...and maybe someone else? there used to be one in texas but i forget. anyways you see where i'm going with this. if a region is missing a character entirely (like wc and ice climbers) and another region has high usage of that (like ec and ice cimbers) it seems fine to use more than one from the region that's saturated, just to keep the numbers consistent. but for a character like diddy (where every region seems to have one good one), you would just pull the best one from each area.

it would probably help to add an amount of characters and keep a consistent number of each, maybe about 3 - 5 per char, so that each character has a well rounded pool of results to pull from. i think it would work better this way as opposed to making the list based on one personal opinion of who is the best/pretty good with the character. you would still have TOP and HIGH categories for the actual players of the characters, but the amount of characters would be more consistent, and the players would be more correctly chosen since at least one from each region must be there (unless there is no player that plays the char in that region, which will likely happen with the less popular ones).

and i assume the world's player results aren't involved in this...that would be much harder.

 

[| Big D |]

I'm a WC Ice Cilmbers.

Where's the love?

 

[DeLux]

To be fair Nicole, I'm pretty bad and our region is bad. David is comparable to me in the MW when he's like trying (and not losing to my boy Fragger ), but nobody will ever know

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nicole, I would have actually added DeLux - despite his annoying habit of downtalking himself - but the results he posts are not sufficient for this chart. At the tourneys he attends he pretty much uses random and I'd need to know which sets he used ICs in [mainly vs MJG's TL, maybe his Diddy].

 

[DeLux]

What kind of data do you want/need?

And I'm not downplaying anything. If we took my tournament record against the players on the chart, I'd be like 10-50 or something like that which IS pretty bad

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Basically I'd need to know the character usage between you vs MJG from the last 6 months. Anything that includes either his TL or your ICs could potentially count. If the results skew the IC chart noticeably for the worse I'll reconsider not adding you, for now I don't see a reason though. I know you've also beaten Denti at least once and I'd like to know what tournaments you did and how many times overall

The same holds true for MJGs Diddy btw. Might add him as well.

 

[RaptorTEC]

No one for Yoshi? @.@ I could look up results but what exactly are you looking for it to be qualified?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've checked your results but I don't feel like the first half year has been sufficient.

However, your results since the beginning of July are aknowledged and will likely be used for the next update.

 

[RaptorTEC]

My results this month aren't any better then the first half of this year lol. Are you looking purely at placings or people who were beaten too? I feel like Delta has done enough at least

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's about people you have beaten. The placing is not taken into consideration at all. In my notes that would be Orion and shadow since July. I don't think you've had wins that good before.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Well for the first half I had Logic and Pink Fresh who are both on this so idk. Just making sure nothing was missed lol

Nvm about logic I just realized he's not on here lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I probably didn't miss it but left it out because the amount of results for Yoshi overall was way too low. Keep in mind that just in this one month you already have as many viable results as you've had in the last 6. If you keep that up, your results will be taken into consideration without any doubt but that's a matter of the next update. I didn't miss anything for this one though, in regards to Yoshi.

 

[Gardex]

I'm surprised to not see ROB listed in a thread made by Gheb

 

[RaptorTEC]

Ok then. When's the next update anyway?

Edit: Also, I don't know how much my opinion counts for this but I feel both Mekos and Pink Fresh should be at the same level. After playing both of them I don't see much of a difference between the two.

 

[Ussi]

Ike sucks and you should feel bad if you ever lose to one


Like wow 0-infinity Ike-world MU

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ike sucks and you should feel bad if you ever lose to one


Like wow 0-infinity Ike-world MU

What if it's a Level 9 Ike?

Those things are impossible!

 

[Delta-cod]

Friggin' Raptor. I haven't entered anything in the last half year outside of like, one tournament in the past month. Where I did a mediocre job. My results aren't that good.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, btw, here was a National Tournament here in Mexico like two weeks ago where Mew2king was invited.
M2K 6-stocked Rafa.
Wonf lost to Hyuga's Meta Knight.
Richi's Lucario beat Waymas' Wario with double timeout.
Then Waymas lost to a Marth from his hometown, Terro.
Wonf used Sonic and bested Rafa in losers.
Wonf somehow kept advancing in losers by beating people with Sonic.
Richi went 1-3 against M2K in WFs
Richi destroyed Wonf in LFs
Richi went 0-3 against M2K in GFs

*end of report*

I'll try to get the TOs to make a bracket, but they use to take TOO LONG to make results public...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok then. When's the next update anyway?

At the end of this year.

 

[Tesh]

Oh, btw, here was a National Tournament here in Mexico like two weeks ago where Mew2king was invited.
M2K 6-stocked Rafa.
Wonf lost to Hyuga's Meta Knight.
Richi's Lucario beat Waymas' Wario with double timeout.
Then Waymas lost to a Marth from his hometown, Terro.
Wonf used Sonic and bested Rafa in losers.
Wonf somehow kept advancing in losers by beating people with Sonic.
Richi went 1-3 against M2K in WFs
Richi destroyed Wonf in LFs
Richi went 0-3 against M2K in GFs

*end of report*

I'll try to get the TOs to make a bracket, but they use to take TOO LONG to make results public...

i watched this livestream, where the heck are the vids?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Junebug is back in action and deserves the same level trela does in my opinion. He just split with me for first about 3 weeks ago at a tourney nearly all of Md/Va's PR attended. I also think Neo should be listed under 's for "High". Neo beat Lie (Who is listed here) and Junebug the same tourney. Lie used the entire tourney and Neo used vs everyone except for me (He went vs me).

Edit: Also I noticed Atomsk is not listed for . He should be the same as Vex. I also think his match with Ed from Sktar is important since the vs matchup NEVER happens for the most part. I believe the current chart lists it at +1 , but Atomsk won that set 2-1. It looked significantly harder for from just watching that set.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All of that will be taken into consideration for the next update.

 

[Tesh]

Junebug is back in action and deserves the same level trela does in my opinion. He just split with me for first about 3 weeks ago at a tourney nearly all of Md/Va's PR attended. I also think Neo should be listed under 's for "High". Neo beat Lie (Who is listed here) and Junebug the same tourney. Lie used the entire tourney and Neo used vs everyone except for me (He went vs me).

Edit: Also I noticed Atomsk is not listed for . He should be the same as Vex. I also think his match with Ed from Sktar is important since the vs matchup NEVER happens for the most part. I believe the current chart lists it at +1 , but Atomsk won that set 2-1. It looked significantly harder for from just watching that set.

woa woa, does beating people on this list get you onto the list? I want in.

also megafox

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Junebug, Neo and Lie are all players that deserve to be in the list when they are active. It's just that they have not been in the first semester of this year. Megafox is already in consideration.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Just for the sake of asking, I've been very active but there is nothin for me lol. How come?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A special case is Sheilda. While a high / top level player for her exists [ScaryLB59] her results can clearly be assigned and is left out for practical reasons.

Quoted from the OP. While someone who has seen the Sktar 2 stream can definitely say that Atomsk's win against you should be credited for the DDD vs Sheik matchup it's not always that clear. In many cases it's very hard to say which matchup a set should be credited to.