• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Result-based Matchup Chart [1.1.13 - 30.6.13]

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Introduction

This is an attempt to approach the concept of a matchup chart in a way that for the most part ignores subjective views on things. While the "official" matchup chart created by the seleced panels claims its legitimacy on the results of discussions between representatives of the characters, this matchup chart is based entirely on the results of tournaments, regardless of the tournament's size, entry fee, level of skill or other factors related to the tournament.

The only outside factor that has been relevant for the creation of this chart is the rating of player skill. Notable players of each character - if available - have been written down and assigned the labels "high level player" and "top level player". The resulting list has become the starting point of this project. After that, I have examined all matchup results that have been posted on SWF in the "tournament results" section this year. If the result includes a player rated as "high level" or "top level" it is taken into consideration for the chart. Using a certain method - explained below - I then evaluated the matchup results and placed them into the according place on the chart until all available results have been evaluated and inserted.

A result is taken into consideration if either a bracket is available, video evidence exists to confirm that a matchup has happened in tournament or if I have seen the set on a lifestream and remember it. Furthermore, in order for a character to have "won" the set by this chart's standard he must have taken 2 or more games. Therefore it is important to note that since the chart evaluates the performance of characters in a matchup not all tournament wins between two players can be used. An example would be the set ESAM vs Leon from Apex 2013. ESAM won the set 2-1, the character usage being Pikachu vs Marth game 1 [Pikachu wins], Pikachu vs Marth game 2 [Marth wins] and IC vs Marth game 3 [IC win]. The performance of the character is the following: 1-1 for Pikachu vs Marth and 1-0 for IC vs Marth. Since this set includes no matchup result where any character takes more than 1 game it cannot be used for this chart.

Approaching a matchup chart this way has upsides and downsides. Whether one outweighs the other is up to the reader's estimation. The biggest advantage is the lack of subjectivity - other than the evaluation of a player's skill there are no subjective factors included. All results included in the creation of this chart is relevant and the methodology is consistent. Relevance of a result and absence double-standards are therefore guaranteed.
The big downside is that a lot of matchups have no empirical basis in the first place, therefore the chart will have a big number of blank spots - some characters having no relevant results at all. That's just the way it is though, no idea is completely perfect and some flaws just have to be accepted and acknowledged as such. So please don't complain about some of the issues of this project - I am aware of them.

---​
Players
The players whose results are considered relevant for the purpose of this chart are listed in this section of the thread. The estimation is subjective but should be comprehensible to anybody who is familiar with the tournament scene of this game. Some high level and top level players have not been included as they had no results, either by way of being inactive or because no bracket or videos were available at the time of this chart's creation. Please keep this in mind when you take a look at the player list and wonder why certain players are absent.
[collapse="The players by character"]​
:metaknight:
Top: Mew2King, Nairo, Anti, Tyrant, Otori, Rain, Kakera, SLS, Ally, CT Zero​
High: Dojo, Fow, Pwii, Bloodcross, Orion, Koolaid, Seibrik, Nietono, El, Akira, Misaka, Shuin, HolyNightmare, TO Joe​
:popo:
Top: Vinnie, Nakat, 9B​
High: ESAM, Dany​
:olimar:
Top: dabuz, Brood​
High: RichBrown, Denti, Abadango, Kairo, Tin Man​
:diddy:
Top: ADHD, Gnes​
High: Zinoto, Player-1, Lie, Suinoko, Luigi_player, cyve​
:marth:
Top: Mikeneko, Mr-R, Leon, MikeHaze​
High: Komorikiri, Dany​
:snake:
Top: Ally​
High: Fatal, Bizkit, mikeray4, MVD, UltimateRazer, Havok, Shu, Dio, Hazureimu, Kuroobi, Mr-R, Rafa​
Top: DEHF, Masha, SLS​
High: Keitaro, Kismet, Shugo, Pelca, Abadango, Aki​
:pikachu2:
Top: ESAM​
High: Z, daiki​
:zerosuitsamus:
Top: Salem, NickRiddle, Sakasaka, Choco, quiKsilver​
High: Dakpo, Kamemushi, Tay, V115​
:wario:
Top: Reflex, Abadango, Waymas, Glutonny​
High: Kamemushi, daiki, Yukhoe​
:lucario:
Top: Trela​
:dedede:
Top: Vex Kasrani​
High: Isotaku​
:toonlink:
Top: MJG, Hyuga​
High: KingToon, Jerm, ShadowPJ, Tsunayoshi​
:wolf:
High: Kain, Seagull​
:fox:
High: Nakat, Zeton, Trump, Yui, Jill​
:pit:
Top: Earth​
:peach:
Top: Illmatic, SlayerZ, Kie​
High: Silly Kyle, Nicole, Umeki​
:dk2:
Top: Will​
High: Nyanko​
:ike:
Top: Ryo​
High: Blubolouis​
:sheik:
Top: Cross​
:ness2:
Top: Shaky, Fsann​
:lucas:
Top: Mekos​
High: Pink Fresh[/collapse]​
If no player has been assigned to a character then there either are no relevant players available or there are available players but their results are unavailable.​
A special case is Sheilda. While a high / top level player for her exists [ScaryLB59] her results can clearly be assigned and is left out for practical reasons.​
---​
The Results:
All relevant results from the beginning of the year until now are written down and saved on my computer. It is a lot of data and I have yet to find a way to make it easier to read. I'd like to do that before I officially publish them in this thread. Until I am able to do that you can request a copy of the excel file where all the information is saved in case you are interested. I plan to update the chart every 6 months to keep the information as relevant as possible.​
---​
Methodology:
The results are evaluated in the following manner:​
If a top level player beats a top level player his character gains +2 points on the chart​
If a top level player beats a high level player his character gains +1 points on the chart​
If a high level player beats a top level player his character gains +3 points on the chart​
If a high level player beats a high level player his character gains +1 points on the chart​
If a player below high level beats a top level player his character gains +4 points on the chart​
If a player below high level beats a high level player his character gains +2 points on the chart​
All points that are relevant for a particular matchup are added together and inserted into the according spot on the chart.​
---​
The Chart:
Notes:​
- If a matchup number is written in bold it means that its results are comsidered particularly representative and cover a broad variety of players. Based on that it is safe to assume that the number of this chart describes the proportions of power in the matchup very accurately.​
- If a matchup number is written in italics it means that for some reason it is questionable. Please not that just because a number is labeled questionable it doesn't have to be that far off from the truth [i.e Diddy vs Snake].​
[collapse="Reasons"]​
MK vs Snake: A crucial amount of MKs wins from japanese tourneys has gone lost on the account of some brackets no longer being unavailable. I estimate the matchup number to be about +5 points off for MK.​
Olimar vs ZSS: With the exception of Brood's win against Choco, this matchup number is based completely on the results of Tin Man vs V115. Even a minor skill gap could have influenced this matchup number noticeably.​
Diddy vs Snake: Diddy Kong actually only has 2 set wins for this matchup, one of them being blurred by confusion over the ruleset.​
Diddy vs Wario: Based solely on the results between Player-1 and Reflex​
Marth vs Wario: With the exception of Mr-R's win against Waymas, this matchup number is based completely on the results of Leon vs Glutonny​
Snake vs Pikachu: By this chart's methodoloty the results favor Snake, even though Pikachu has more individual wins.​
Snake vs ZSS: 12 of Snake's 13 points have been collected by Ally and MVD [6 each]​
Falco vs Wario: Based entirely on the results between Kismet and Reflex[/collapse]​
---​
Differences to the official matchup chart:
This project has been created as a supplement to the offcial matchup chart. Some people might be interested in seeing where noticeable differences between the two matchup charts lie so I've written them down as well:
MK vs Diddy Kong [+1 MK on MU Chart, advantage Diddy by results]
MK vs Snake [+1 MK on MU Chart, advantage Snake by results]
IC vs ZSS [+1 ZSS on MU Chart, advantage IC by results]
Olimar vs Marth [+1 Marth on MU Chart, advantage Olimar by results]
Marth vs Falco [+1 Marth on MU Chart, advantage Falco by results]
Marth vs Diddy Kong [+1 Diddy on MU Chart, advantage Marth by results]
King DDD vs ZSS [+2 ZSS on MU Chart, advantage DDD by results]

This will be updated as soon as the next MU chart is published
---​
I'd like to thank Akuma [XDD-Master] for his valuable input on this chart's methodology and other things. Credit also goes to Keitaro for his interest in the project and keeping me motivated.
:059:
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
Nice to see this getting done, better late than never. Good work Gheb.
 

Blubolouis

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Paris, France
Very interesting project.
Unless I didn't read the whole thing correctly, I don't think you've said the dates span of the results you took into account.

Also, and I don't wanna start anything here, perhaps you could add Neath into the high diddy category (your comment about wario vs diddy only being P1 vs Reflex made me think about this).
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
What were the criteria to determine:

-Qualification for the chart in general as far as player consideration
-Distinction between "high level" and "top level"

It's curious to me that some characters have no "top level" players and some of the lists seem to be missing some usually accepted "high level' players


Otherwise, love the idea behind this project. Interested to see how it develops and hope it isn't too overwhelming of a burden to track!
 

ぱみゅ

❤ ~
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
10,010
Location
Under your skirt
NNID
kyo.pamyu.pamyu
3DS FC
4785-5700-5699
Switch FC
SW 3264 5694 6605
Toastin' on epic bread.
Really nicely done.

Still a bit iffy on the "high" and "top" thing, but results are results, and welp...
I just hope for this project to keep throwing results!
 

Nicole

Smash Champion
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
2,868
Location
MIDWEST
the problem with this being based 100% on results, which is why we don't usually base these things on 100% results, is because some people have bad matchups. i will probably never beat a fox or yoshi player that is anywhere near my skill level. does that mean peach loses to those characters? (well she loses to fox but not yoshi). its fine for peach because there are other ppl who are good with her and the results wont be skewed, but like...lucario. or pikachu. or donkey kong. we have like, will, esam, and trela...and like...who the fk else has done anything with those characters on the level those guys have? so its hard to say what are actually bad matchups for those characters vs who those players are bad against.

edit: and additionally now that i actually read more of the info, there are also going to be some things that are skewed because of saturation. you have that snake beats mk more than mk beats snake, but you know that at a high level that matchup is mk's favor...i mean it just is. not sayin' snake cant win cause he's a broken piece of ****. BUT the reason stuff like that is gonna show up is because of the saturation of bad ppl playing mk. probably about 2x more scrub mk's than any other character. so i hope that this chart will only compare results of meetings between the players that are already on the top/high list. or else it's irrelevant data. if that is what the chart is here for and doing to begin with and it's 5am and my reading comprehension is subpar right now, i apologize, and ignore this paragraph.

its a fine idea tho, and will surely be as good as the bbr discussions, which have only gotten worse and worse as they've continued (because of a few key factors that i certainly won't say right here because i like my pretty purple name goddammit). just something to keep in mind.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
What were the criteria to determine:

-Qualification for the chart in general as far as player consideration
-Distinction between "high level" and "top level"

It's curious to me that some characters have no "top level" players and some of the lists seem to be missing some usually accepted "high level' players

Otherwise, love the idea behind this project. Interested to see how it develops and hope it isn't too overwhelming of a burden to track!
I can't deny that the classification of players as "top", "high" or "lower" is subjective to some extent. For the most part though, they were classified by the quality and quantity of their wins against other top and high level players, of which I expect people to understand some are self-evident . We can all agree with M2K being a top level MK. We can all agree that HolyNightmare is good enough a player to make his addition a sensible choice. We can all agree that their MKs are not on the same level though and that it makes sense to evaluate beating M2K higher than beating Holy.

At some point there just has to be a subjective distinction though and I do not expect all people to agree with it. If you disagree with MikeHaze being a top level Marth while RichBrown is not listed as a top Olimar and therefore believe that the Olimar vs Marth matchup number on this chart is skewed then you are free to argue that and propose a correction. I am not claiming absolute authority and accuracy for this chart - it is simply an offer for the community to have a basis for result-related arguments. After all, I am only a human being and not beyond making mistakes. If you think something is wrong with it you can mention it - there's a good chance I will take such suggestions into consideration for the next update.

Like I mentioned in the OP, some characters either just don't have high / top level players or they have been inactive in the time span covered by the chart. Or the results I have found on them can not be used for another reason. In case of you yourself for example, I couldn't use your results for ICs because it's never clear which character you use in what set - that means that none of the results of you vs MJG could've been used for the chart. Since that's the only high/top level player you have results against in the last 6 months you had no results that I could use so I decided to leave you out. What I'm saying is that just because a player isn't among the characters in the OP doesn't mean I don't acknowledge his skill.

Though while you mentioned it, I'm curious where you see potential cases of dispute. I am open for suggestions and if the arguments for it are good and a lot of people support it I can easy make a change for the next update and add new players or move them.

Making this chart is not actually that much of a hassle. There are about 4 or 5 new Brawl tournaments posted every weekend. Out of those, there's usually one that doesn't have a bracket posted and another one without any notable players. The only tournaments that include a really big amount of results are those from NJ/NY, the Piosuma tourneys, bigger WC regionals and national tourneys. It's not that hard to keep track of.


Very interesting project.
Unless I didn't read the whole thing correctly, I don't think you've said the dates span of the results you took into account.

Also, and I don't wanna start anything here, perhaps you could add Neath into the high diddy category (your comment about wario vs diddy only being P1 vs Reflex made me think about this).

The OP mentions the time span in a few places: it's from within the last 6 months aka 1st January 2013 to 30th June 2013.

I'm not going to add Neath. Unless he starts to beat people in the "high level" category I don't see any reason to. He is not on the same level as cyve or Luigi_player ... or any of the european players that have been taken into consideration for this chart.

:059:
 

T0MMY

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
3,342
Location
Oregon
I'll echo what Nicole said, but mirror it. Someone like myself who may perform well against Meta Knights would skew the R.O.B. vs Meta Knight matchup.
My opinion would still hold that that matchup is one of the most difficult for R.O.B., but because we are then looking at player matchup, any win I could score would bump R.O.B. up higher due to reflecting player attributes.

However, I have to say this kind of skewed image is neither good nor bad; it simply is reflecting what is the reality of the situation: That there will be a variance with the performance of characters through different players and therefore a projected expectation of performance within tournament competition is presented.
In other words the data will be displayed as the goal was set out: Data based on tournament performance, NOT subjective opinion.

And to that, I have to say, I love this project and fully support it.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
oh god don't include me in the chart Gheb, I'm bad lol

If you did, the TLvICs MU would be like 16-1 this year lol
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
@Nicole and T0mmy

The factors of individual strengths and weaknesses only weigh heavily on matchups where results are few. The more diverse and numerous the empirical basis of a matchup number is, the less strengths and weaknesses will matter. For example, some people will probably think that Seibrik beating quiKsilver's ZSS at Apex netting +3 points for MK is too much with all the ZSS experience Seibrik has. However, the number and diversity of results we have of that matchup serve as a qualifier and prevent such extreme cases from skewing the matchup number. At the end of the day, whether Seibrik beating quik gives MK +3, +2 or only +1 point doesn't really have much of an impact on the overall matchup number and the proportion of matchup points will stay almost exactly the same.

Such factors generally only really come into play when a matchup has very few results. But numbers for these matchups are generally questionable by nature. Nobody would conclude from the 1 | 1 of Wolf vs MK that the matchup is even. It it were 10 | 10 though, it would be a different story - but then individual strengths and weaknesses would barely affect the number at all, as pointed out above.

:059:
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Cool idea. Some characters I never get to play against though (:falco:, :zerosuitsamus:, and :popo: for example) so my results and experience lack when it comes to those.

:018:
 

FredFuchs

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
i may have missed something but why is olimar 0|4 with ics? both dabuz and nietono has win(s) against vinnie and dabuz also has win(s) against nakat's ics as well.
 

Vinnie

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
4,073
Location
Long Island, NY!
i may have missed something but why is olimar 0|4 with ics? both dabuz and nietono has win(s) against vinnie and dabuz also has win(s) against nakat's ics as well.
Nietono never beat me in tourney. The past 6 times I played Dabuz in tourney, I won and 3 stocked him each time.

Regardless though, this thread is inaccurate and opinion-based, and shouldn't be regarded as official by any means.
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
*****, you've only 3 stocked me once and I've still taken games off you.

Besides that, it's 0/4 because I haven't fought Vinnie or Nakat in at least 7 months so there's no way it's recent enough to be on the list.
 

Vinnie

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
4,073
Location
Long Island, NY!
*****, you've only 3 stocked me once and I've still taken games off you.

Besides that, it's 0/4 because I haven't fought Vinnie or Nakat in at least 7 months so there's no way it's recent enough to be on the list.
It's got to be at least the last 4 times we played, I 3 stocked you. Pretty sure it's like 5 or 6 though. I'm sure of it, I 3 stock you in 1 game each set. Ones I can remember are Uprise 11 and Collision 6, but there were more beforehand in late 2012. You're right about taking games off me, but you GO TO THE TOURNAMENT and don't enter if I'm in attendance, so that's your fault >_>
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
Clear up your story, you say it's got to be AT LEAST the last 4 times, probably 5 or 6, yet you can only bring up 2. I only entered 3 tournaments in late 2013 (Uprise 11, Collison 6, Xsmash).

Also, "you go to the tournament and don't enter if i'm in attendance". Wait, how is that possible if there are records of us playing? I've gone to 7 tournaments in the past year or so. The above 3, Apex, Impulse, crossfire 1, and some random. Out of all those, I didn't enter Crossfire 1 and the Random. IDGAF if you're entering, just some days I don't feel like playing brawl singles. (As noted by me entering 4/6 tournaments you entered we were both at)
 

Vinnie

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
4,073
Location
Long Island, NY!
I only entered 3 tournaments in late 2013 (Uprise 11, Collison 6, Xsmash).
And I 3 stocked you at each one. I also nearly jv 4 stocked you on fd at Uprise 10. I mixed up a few 3 stocks with some 2 stock 5%s and things like that (like Smashachusetts), my b. My point still stands. We're close in skill level but ICs still win the matchup at least +1. I've 3 stocked Brood and Denti before too.

Also, "you go to the tournament and don't enter if i'm in attendance". Wait, how is that possible if there are records of us playing?
Because more often than not, if it's a local and me/ANTi/Nairo are in attendance, you'll either go but not enter, or you'll just not go.

IDGAF if you're entering, just some days I don't feel like playing brawl singles. (As noted by me entering 4/6 tournaments you entered we were both at)
Whenever I asked you why you don't enter, you said it's not worth it since you didn't find brawl fun anymore, and referenced MK and chaingrabs. You always claim you gave up / didn't care whenever I beat you, either.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
i may have missed something but why is olimar 0|4 with ics? both dabuz and nietono has win(s) against vinnie and dabuz also has win(s) against nakat's ics as well.

This chart only covers results from the beginning of 2013.

Vinnie has a win against dabuz -> +2 points for ICs
Vinnie has two wins against Denti -> +2 points for ICs
Olimar has no wins against ICs this season -> 4/0 is the set record between ICs and Olimar.

Regardless though, this thread is inaccurate and opinion-based, and shouldn't be regarded as official by any means.
Judging things that are beyond your grasp makes you look very smart.


i dont see me in falco

If you read the OP you'd know why.

:059:
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
top 5 thread is back and better than ever i see
 

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
1,387
Location
New Jersey
NNID
Blueoceans26
3DS FC
3050-7832-9141
Why didn't you add Trela vs Mew2king for Lucario and Metaknight?
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
There is no bracket in the results thread so I couldn't use it.

:059:
Are there other tournaments that you suspect might include usable results? Wouldn't hurt to ask the players on the list.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
I really dislike things like this. Good luck with it though.

Oh man, god forbid we do something with actual data instead of the bull****, never-based-in-fact debates top players usually waste their time with.
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
And I 3 stocked you at each one. I also nearly jv 4 stocked you on fd at Uprise 10. I mixed up a few 3 stocks with some 2 stock 5%s and things like that (like Smashachusetts), my b. My point still stands. We're close in skill level but ICs still win the matchup at least +1. I've 3 stocked Brood and Denti before too.


You're still exaggerating how often you've 3 stocked me the past few times we've played, waaaay over-exaggerating. Also, wasn't Smashachusetts like...2011?

Because more often than not, if it's a local and me/ANTi/Nairo are in attendance, you'll either go but not enter, or you'll just not go.
Whenever I asked you why you don't enter, you said it's not worth it since you didn't find brawl fun anymore, and referenced MK and chaingrabs. You always claim you gave up / didn't care whenever I beat you, either.

Yeah, but it's not you/ anti/ *insert other ICs/ MK* that makes me not want to enter. If that was the case I would have entered a Long Island local or two when you were in Texas and not have entered anything you guys were at. Not saying I don't hate MK/ ICs but your presence doesn't affect me.
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
As much as I hate to say this, I have played Denti in tournament a plethora of times in within the past few months. I do recommended they be considered in this chart.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
If both player vouch that something happened. You should probably consider it. I don't know why so many tournaments leave bracket data out of the results, but it doesn't look like its gonna change soon.
 
Top Bottom