Regarding NYTE and the MK Ban (DECISION FINALIZED! PLEASE READ 1st POST!)

[Sybawave]

Meta Knight should be banned because it'll force Melee pros like M2K to stop playing Brawl.Then they'd actually have to try to win at the game so instead they'd end up quitting and come back to Melee.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Meta Knight should be banned because it'll force Melee pros like M2K to stop playing Brawl.Then they'd actually have to try to win at the game so instead they'd end up quitting and come back to Melee.

M2k said he'd come to this if MK was legal...

which means he would also enter melee at this >.>

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

MK shouldn't be banned.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

This tournament was planned ahead of time before the MK ban, with the expectation that MK would be legal; MK should remain legal if the protocol doesn't mean anything to you.

It's not that a definite side (MK remaining legal) should remain, it's that now there's a choice that can be made and still be taken seriously (where banning MK prior to ban buzz would not be). No ****s given about protocol, each side should now be considered fully. That's the only thing Unity has effectively affected.


I also want to point out that a few arguments given here are made for should MK be banned like "it'd be nice if he's banned cuz he's frustrating" as opposed to what we should be arguing about, being, should he be banned at Nyte like, "the regional tournament in question would be better off if..." I think that's a rather important point.
and so

1. While most pro-ban people would probably come to this anyway, a few may not, presumably because they're bitter with their no-MK boner being killed.
2. Many people will only show to this if MK is legal. Many people will only show to this if they can play people who would only show to this if MK is legal. M2K = people like StrongBad (and surely there's many more). This also includes regional Melee players who want to play M2K because, well he'll be there and will probably be down for some Melee.
3. [IMO] #2 outweighs #1 [/IMO]
4. I also want to reiterate the hype and advertisement you will generate being probably the first major regional to disregard Unity. There is still plenty of time for hype and making yourself different in this way is an advertising goldmine.

All in all, this is about how to make Nyte the best tournament. Smashers, as a naturally amicable and chill bunch

Spoiler

, for the most part,

will have a good time either way. So the way I see it, the biggest question is not of MKs fairness (that kind of argument can be taken elsewhere) but of projected participation. Thus...

For me to retract my argument, pro-ban players surpassing an amount greater than M2K and all the people he would attract have to announce they will not come to this if MK is allowed. But like Jane said, more time to see the communtiy's reaction to a lack of MK is very important.

I'm tipsy and that was fun to write.

Meta Knight should be banned because it'll force Melee pros like M2K to stop playing Brawl.Then they'd actually have to try to win at the game so instead they'd end up quitting and come back to Melee.

kids these days...

 

[BRLNK88]

My argument for MK not being banned is that he IS beatable if the skill gap is there.
I mained Toon Link when I played Brawl, he has a pretty bad MU with MK (65:35 at best IMO).
A friend and I last weekend decided to play some Brawl matches just for shiggles (I'll avoid stating the real reason to avoid pissing off Elvis), he decided to play MK just because of all the hype of how broken he is. I beat him with Toon Link with relatively little difficulty. Basically, by banning MK, you're also banning a scrub's best chance of getting anywhere in a tournament.
This might sound stupid, but what if certain PLAYERS are banned from using MK? Just from observing tournament history, players like M2K, Ally, etc.

 

[SFA Smiley]

gah, i can't post my full opinion right now, don't have the time... but i will do something quick.

i believe metaknight should be banned at NYTE.

and now to quickly address some anti-ban arguements in the thread:

"slap in the face to all MK mains" - well, yeah, but the fact of the matter is people voted for a ban and an overwhelming majority were in favor. the emancipation proclamation was a slap in the face to sugar and tobacco farmers, but that's a bit irrelevant when the majority wants change, is it not?

"he's definitely beatable" - i am not to passionately pro-ban because mk is "not beatable." as a matter of fact, i have lots of fun in the MK matchup. the problem is that mk has a ridiculous amount of advantages; only drawback being he can die kind of early. but when you look at his stupid amounts of advantages, THAT is why i, and many others, chose to ban. not because he is not beatable. he is certainly beatable.

"don't ban him because M2K" / "don't ban him because it'll attract more entrants" - this is the best argument as far as NYTE is concerned. and i can see why you would allow him simply because it will instantly mean M2K and that means more potential entrants. i still disagree, and believe that the more MK-banned tournaments there are, the faster everyone will get used to it. NYTE would be the first ever regional mk banned tourney in the southwest, ever, and i was quite excited for that. but, again, i understand your qualms elvis, and will understand your position should you choose to keep mk legal.

"unity is not absolute" - unity was never absolute, and i don't think anyone ever thought that. unity is meant to UNITE as many tournaments as possible--certainly not all of them, but as many as possible. by 76% of the voting population voting for the ban, it shows that unity (as a concept) is still very possible.



well... that wasn't very quick. and now i'm late. xD

Blah blah blah Jane. He's the best character duh

The **** you said is true. I'm not saying it isn't I'm saying those aren't valid reasons to ban him.

He's good. it doesn't mean he should be banned, he's not breaking the game. We know this because MKs lose all the time. Not as often as the other characters, obviously, but he's the best.

He's a popular+good character - Why does this equal ban-worthy? Items are banned because they can have devastating effects beyond the fault of the player. MK is banned because players use bad characters expecting to win? Does it sound "dishonorable?"
Yes. I threw that all away when I started playing competitively.

It's the nature of the beast, screwing over MK mains because you don't like that is unfair to them. They haven't done anything wrong, but play (or play to win)

 

[Jane]

He's a popular+good character - Why does this equal ban-worthy?

our criteria for being ban-worthy is different. and i'm not saying thats bad or wrong or anything, but thats just the way it is.

Items are banned because they can have devastating effects beyond the fault of the player.

not all items have a devastating effect. some could potentially be used competitively, maybe even make the game funner somehow. but we ban all of them because no one really gives a ****, and thats fine.

MK is banned because players use bad characters expecting to win?

not really, pro banners are not expecting to suddenly see a surge in their skill level or placings. as i've said before, its not really about that.

screwing over MK mains because you don't like that is unfair to them. They haven't done anything wrong, but play (or play to win)

again, when something big happens--whether it be in the real world or in a small community like this--not everyone is going to be happy. some people may get screwed over somehow. but in the end, when big controversial decisions get made SOMEONE is going to get ****ed. its just the nature of things, and i'm sorry you feel like you are one of them.

 

[Nicknyte]

Forte Ban
Smiley Keep
Tommy Keep
Derp Keep
Mike2 Ban
shockna Ban
Lusiris Keep
Jane Ban
ShadowPhx Keep
Sybawave Ban
BRLINK Keep

Basically 6 Keeps, 5 bans. I tossed out any other people who didnt state their region, or I deem not part of the Southwest Brawl community, including the Meleers that just want MK legal due to seeing M2K again (no offense Jason, but I can't have them rigging my opinion). This is not a vote or anything, but its putting into perspective of what people in the SW think of MK, apparently not the polarizing 75%.

 

[Jane]

note how everyone who said keep mk legal are doing it on the basis of m2k, except BRLINK.


disclaimer: i'm not discrediting their reasoning, wanting to see/play m2k is a good enough reason for me, it's just an observation.

 

[Nicknyte]

A very valid observation, still a reason never the less. I can see people still going to a MK Legal tournament if M2K was there, opposed to him not being there at all. Its almost the fact that if it wasnt for the fact Jason wanted to come, the legality of MK in this tournament would not be a question at all.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

but the reason so many people who said keep mk legal on the basis of m2k is arguably the best reason to have him unbanned. He will attract players so many people, and I know that's what AZ, and mainly Elvis want for Nyte, for as many people to come as possible.

It's Science.

 

[Nicknyte]

Now you are thinking with portals. Anyway, I am just trying to get an overall gist of the community's opinion on MK. In the end, I wont have a decision on it until after Jan 16th. In the meantime, if AZ Brawl could pre-reg, I'd appreciate it. I only need 50 people to pay off the venue lol.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

This is bull.
Not the thread, just the topic.
NYTE should be MK legal. I HATE MK, but banning him is ridiculous if you're having this tournament for something bigger than just plain fun.

The attendant thing is irrelevant. Players will come cuz he's legal, others will come cuz he's not. It goes either way.

Mew2King is a beast, to have him come would be epic, but having MK legal JUST cuz it's M2K? What are you? A Justin Bieber fan? Come on son.
This is ultimately up to the TO. No other input should sway the way you feel cuz ultimately, you're in charge. Unity banned MK because it was a community decision, and even then, it was a majority of people who don't even play offline competitively. Sure, MK is overpowered, but banning him is just....no. This is up to you, the TO. You run the tourney. People attend YOUR tourney. You can do as much as you can to make it a tourney people enjoy, but it's your decision.
This is neither a keep or a ban. This is a "shut up and do what you want", so to speak.
Don't take this thread or anything I say into a tone of aggression.

 

[Jane]

You can do as much as you can to make it a tourney people enjoy, but it's your decision.

yes, his decision. hence why he's asking his community. because it is his decision on how he chooses to handle these matters.

I HATE MK, but banning him is ridiculous if you're having this tournament for something bigger than just plain fun.

banning metaknight is only ok if its just for "plain fun," otherwise it's ridiculous.

uhhh

The attendant thing is irrelevant. Players will come cuz he's legal, others will come cuz he's not. It goes either way.

not irrelevant. more people have expressed their reluctance to go if M2K doesnt go. NO ONE has said "if mk is legal i won't go."

but having MK legal JUST cuz it's M2K? What are you? A Justin Bieber fan? Come on son.

Unity banned MK because it was a community decision, and even then, it was a majority of people who don't even play offline competitively.

Sure, MK is overpowered, but banning him is just....no.

 

[Medz!]

i say keep him even tho he is a ***** to fight and hes the worse matchup for marth. i like a challenge and i personally think he is beatable so stfu and man up and just learn the damn matchup

 

[DerpDaBerp]

The attendant thing is irrelevant.

You are exactly wrong.

This decision is NOT based on the potential to beat MK or the legitimacy of the ban itself. That's been discussed everywhere on this site and Nicknyte would easily be able to make his own decision with a little research and his own gut. To make an argument here (and correct me Nicknyte if I'm wrong), you have to see the line between "MK's legitmacy as a character" (being a different matter held elsewhere) and "MK's effect on this tournament". Because banned or not, this tournament will work. It's which of them will make it better.

It's a cash prize tournament whose success hinges on participation. Attendance is the only relevant thing.

 

[Nicknyte]

This is bull.
Not the thread, just the topic.
NYTE should be MK legal. I HATE MK, but banning him is ridiculous if you're having this tournament for something bigger than just plain fun.

The attendant thing is irrelevant. Players will come cuz he's legal, others will come cuz he's not. It goes either way.

Mew2King is a beast, to have him come would be epic, but having MK legal JUST cuz it's M2K? What are you? A Justin Bieber fan? Come on son.
This is ultimately up to the TO. No other input should sway the way you feel cuz ultimately, you're in charge. Unity banned MK because it was a community decision, and even then, it was a majority of people who don't even play offline competitively. Sure, MK is overpowered, but banning him is just....no. This is up to you, the TO. You run the tourney. People attend YOUR tourney. You can do as much as you can to make it a tourney people enjoy, but it's your decision.
This is neither a keep or a ban. This is a "shut up and do what you want", so to speak.
Don't take this thread or anything I say into a tone of aggression.

What I want to do is cater to the wishes of my community. Your moot point does not help me.

Mew2King is a beast, to have him come would be epic, but having MK legal JUST cuz it's M2K? What are you? A Justin Bieber fan? Come on son.

Okay...I was saying that if M2K wasn't coming, this discussion, I believe, would more than likely Pro-Ban. Having M2K does increase revenue for Brawl AND Melee. Its funny, because the Melee community want M2K more than the brawl side does.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol well damn, y'all tore me a new one with this.
Let's try that again.
What I meant with the irrelevant thing is that people will want to go whether he's banned, and people will want to go if he's legal. Some new players will probably be like **** that, MKplayers will **** me if he's legal. And vice versa. That's really the only point I'm trying to make here.
The plain fun thing is an iffy topic, so I won't dive into that any further.
But all of that to say that keeping him and banning him both will profit and/or hurt you in attendance.

 

[Tsuteto]

*places his two cents for the hell of it*

Banning MK completely outright is a little ridiculous. I compare using MK in brawl like bringing a gun to a knife. You may win, but you certainly don't have the honor.

Does that mean I'm opposed to the ban completely? Nope. But it could be limited. e.g. Counter-pick only type deal (NOT saying that's a rule, it's just an example of "limiting" use). A good "limiting" choice could be using MK once every few matches. As in, let's say someone uses him in round 1, then gets moved into the winner's bracket. From there, they couldn't use him for their next two opponents, but then on the third they could, repeat (idea derived from DDR tournaments I've attended).

All in all, while the opinions of those stating that you just have to get better is true, it's also ridiculous IMO. The game is meant for the fun of it, really. MK drains the fun out of it for a lot of players, both those who play against him, and those who play AS him. Personally, me fighting MK is fun (I'm a Zelda main, BTW, if you couldn't tell). Though I know that for some it's just a turn off, and they'll pretty much quit the scene if that's the case (lest they have a dying love for the game, like me).

Honestly, I can't really go one way or another, since I'm personally conflicted by the choice. I do like the idea of testing out the complete ban of the character, see how it affects the community as a whole, but that can also drop a good number of competitors from the smash scene, for one reason or another. I know that would most likely effectively drop one of our players here in UT.

tl;dr-Not really in favor one way or the other at this point, but doing a "limited" ban may be a more feasible idea.

Sorry if my post isn't entirely coherent. I don't think I am coherent myself right now ^^;;

 

[SFA Smiley]

*places his two cents for the hell of it*

Banning MK completely outright is a little ridiculous. I compare using MK in brawl like bringing a gun to a knife. You may win, but you certainly don't have the honor.

Does that mean I'm opposed to the ban completely? Nope. But it could be limited. e.g. Counter-pick only type deal (NOT saying that's a rule, it's just an example of "limiting" use). A good "limiting" choice could be using MK once every few matches. As in, let's say someone uses him in round 1, then gets moved into the winner's bracket. From there, they couldn't use him for their next two opponents, but then on the third they could, repeat (idea derived from DDR tournaments I've attended).

All in all, while the opinions of those stating that you just have to get better is true, it's also ridiculous IMO. The game is meant for the fun of it, really. MK drains the fun out of it for a lot of players, both those who play against him, and those who play AS him. Personally, me fighting MK is fun (I'm a Zelda main, BTW, if you couldn't tell). Though I know that for some it's just a turn off, and they'll pretty much quit the scene if that's the case (lest they have a dying love for the game, like me).

Honestly, I can't really go one way or another, since I'm personally conflicted by the choice. I do like the idea of testing out the complete ban of the character, see how it affects the community as a whole, but that can also drop a good number of competitors from the smash scene, for one reason or another. I know that would most likely effectively drop one of our players here in UT.

tl;dr-Not really in favor one way or the other at this point, but doing a "limited" ban may be a more feasible idea.

Sorry if my post isn't entirely coherent. I don't think I am coherent myself right now ^^;;

Limited ban is stupid

 

[Tsuteto]

Great job on supporting your point! </sarcasm>

 

[DerpDaBerp]

well ****, what do you want? Limited ban solves nothing and the limits are totally arbitrary

 

[lusiris]

People we're not arguing over banning MK because that has been already decided. We are arguing over if we should allow him for the Tournament. These are the two big points each side is bringing up:
Pro-ban: If MK is allowed then that would make the Tournament non-Unity ruleset which might push people away.
Anti-ban: If Mk is allowed M2K would come which would draw more people because of the big name.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

People we're not arguing over banning MK because that has been already decided. We are arguing over if we should allow him for the Tournament. These are the two big points each side is bringing up:
Pro-ban: If MK is allowed then that would make the Tournament non-Unity ruleset which might push people away.
Anti-ban: If Mk is allowed M2K would come which would draw more people because of the big name.

Also account the people who will want to come because he's banned and people you might lose because he's not. And vice versa and all that junk.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Jane is my favorite poster in this thread.
If you're looking to draw attendance, keep MK legal. M2K is a big draw for any tournament. However, if you want to be the first big event in the region (I think? I haven't really checked around) to have MK banned, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in how it turns out. Some people might go just out of interest, some players who've quit in the past might come back, and a lot of people from other regions might be interested to see the results. Or maybe they won't care if no big names are there.
You should probably keep MK legal to draw in big names like M2K, and especially if when you first advertised the tournament it was said that MK would be legal.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Exactly
The only thing I feel brings the decision of keeping him legal into question would be solid claims by people (either many common or a few big names) who will only come if he's banned. Right now it's only speculation that no MK will attract more people, where we have M2K telling us straight (on top of people saying they'll go if he goes).

 

[FoxFireMage]

Ban him, you know my reasoning why Elvis (as we've talked about it before)

 

[Cherished Doll]

I say do not ban MK plz

 

[Dark Shifter]

anti ban, i wanna play my character

 

[Aaven]

I'm usually pro-ban, but I'm too lazy to even keep up with this MK ban, if people really want him and he draws in big names like M2K then sure why not I guess.

 

[Failie]

ok, stop being a crybaby. hear you loud and clear. what about the fact that 76% of the voting community voted in favor of a ban?

maybe we really are just a bunch of crybabies, but when the community wants something that overwhelmingly, it should be done.

All I have to say, is that this is from an interview with Kusumondo. THE honda player. Who's played the same character in every game. Even when there were 10/90 matchups in the other characters favor.


C: will you switch to another game or another character?You mained Honda for 18 years already, no, almost 20 years.
K: Sometimes I see some people pick sagat in vanilla Street Fighter 4, and in AE they will switch to Yun. When I think of that,I think I won.

C: Why?
K:In real life, everything will not be easy, there are always difficult times.You have to overcome them one by one, in order to move on.It's like you stick with a character to win, to overcome the bad matchup.Like in vanilla Street Fighter 4 people will pick sagat and in AE they will switch to Yun, I think they are trying to avoid the challenges.If you have the same mentality in life or in your career, you will not be able to overcome the obstacles. So I think I win mentally ... ... ha ha, I might get carried away too far.

Mentality is key. Deal with it.

/done

 

[BRLNK88]

Competitive video games should not be compared to "real life", because no one can make an actual career out of playing video games.
Ken won $50,000, a lot of money, but not enough to actually sustain someone, considering how long it took him to win all that money.
If you care about winning enough to switch out your favorite character for a much better one, so be it, its just a game. Maybe if competitive gaming became like professional sports, it would be different.

 

[Nicknyte]

I understand your point Ryan, but if you are trying to convince me, I appreciate it. If you are trying to convince the other smashers, well, using street fighter references in a smash community will not let the community listen to what you have really said. Likewise, I am unsure what point that really had with Jane's post, but the community's mentality is that MK should be banned. That is the mentality.

BRLINK: Deion Sanders

 

[Failie]

Competitive video games should not be compared to "real life", because no one can make an actual career out of playing video games.
Ken won $50,000, a lot of money, but not enough to actually sustain someone, considering how long it took him to win all that money.
If you care about winning enough to switch out your favorite character for a much better one, so be it, its just a game. Maybe if competitive gaming became like professional sports, it would be different.

Well, when you think about Smash and money it's a joke. But when you think about other competitive games, the people who win make bank. Tens of thousands of dollars PER tournament. They're just way more established.

No Elvis, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, the ban is happening no matter what either of us thinks. I just don't see how the community can grow skill wise if they take the easy road out by banning the best character instead of getting better to fight it.

 

[Jane]

rather than "taking the easy road," i see it as "changing fundamental aspects of how we play the game to make it better."

Is my viewpoint so farfetched?

 

[FoxFireMage]

rather than "taking the easy road," i see it as "changing fundamental aspects of how we play the game to make it better."

Is my viewpoint so farfetched?

Not really, especially how as a community we've banned items and several stages in favor of some kind of balance. MK is the same to me

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Because MK is as detrimental to the game as Spear Pillar

 

[Nicknyte]

Spear Pillar, Palkia, should be legal. Good God Yes it should, shut up.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Is Palkia the pearl time changing one?

Screw that. Although admittedly I just realized that's really not that bad as far as competitiveness goes

but yeah screw that, Cave of Life, when I need people to die they need to die

 

[tekkie]

there is a much much less chance i'll try to come to this if mk is legal