Refining the defense system

[Revven]

So, how are we going to do this? Spot dodges clearly need to be fixed so they're not as spammable and can be punished if mistimed (a lot of them don't have punishment frames, some do like DK's can but even his is a little too safe as well). We shouldn't globalize them but, make each one different accordingly based on their style (i.e Marth is offensive, weak defensive shiz like more punishment with a mistime spot dodge).

Also, what about air dodges? Are we going to implement the lower gravity to them and then fix the invinc on them so frame traps aren't huge problems?

Shieldstun also may need refining but, I don't know, people seem to like it.

Just thought I'd make a topic about it since some of us did discuss it but, not everyone did and we didn't really post our thoughts anywhere.

 

[Shell]

I'd like to release Magus's trimmed ADs and let that simmer for a little bit.

I'm not sure if Spotdodges are OP or not, but they are pretty **** powerful. Which makes anti-spotdodge moves (Mario AC'd Dair, Sword Dance, etc) extra useful. The easiest thing would be to trim the spot-dodges a little, too, but a (possibly) more interesting approach would be to slightly improve long-duration hitbox tools. Overall this would likely change too much too late, but I just thought I'd say it for the sake of hearing myself type.

 

[Team Giza]

I'd be willing to let the shieldstun be lowered a bit if sidestepping is nerfed.

 

[The Cape]

We should relook at sheild sliding as it feels a bit too strong.

Less defensive frames on the sidesteps and rolls would be cool.

The ADes as they are in Magus's tests feels great since they are quick and do their job. If we could get the sidesteps and rolls on a similar basis that would be great.

We want the defense to be strong, but not overpowering, this would be great for a final set.

 

[goodoldganon]

There is nothing wrong with letting Brawl+ stay a more defensive game than Melee. That being said I have always felt the defense was STILL a stronger option than offense in Brawl+. This should have been done a long time ago so we can only hope these changes won't shake up the character balance we struggled for.

Here is GoG's suggested defensive changes:

• Shield rolling can and should remain the same. No changes to rolling.
• Spot dodges are too spammable into themself. IASA frames for everything except another spot dodge is the way to do it.
• Shield's should take slightly more damage.
• Shield stun slightly lowered.
• Air dodging needs one of a few tweaks. We could develop that hybrid NADT we were talking about earlier, something I'm not against. What I want to do is return the AD to normal (and bring Peach's up to speed) but remove the ability to FF and air dodge. After that i would add 2-3 extra frames of vulnerability and call it a day.

 

[Magus420]

Is spamming multiple spot dodges into another really the problem here? I think people are somewhat overstating the effectiveness of this as an actual fix.

Falco
Spot Dodge->Spot Dodge
1 Dodge Startup
2 Dodge Invincible
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 Dodge End
23 Dodge Startup
24 Dodge Invincible

Spot Dodge->Jab
1 Dodge Startup
2 Dodge Invincible
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 Dodge End
23 Jab Startup
24 Jab Hit

Spot Dodge->Roll
1 Dodge Startup
2 Dodge Invincible
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 Dodge End
23 Roll Startup
24
25 (Depending on spacing they may not be hittable around here with away roll)
26 Roll Invincible


The problematic ones should really get an actual fix rather than a somewhat superficial one. Spot dodges not being able to go directly into more spot dodges will help to some degree, but it won't really address the problem itself, imo.

 

[Revven]

Spot dodges like Wario's are generally able to be spammed quite effectively. I don't know who else has a spot dodge like Wario's but, his is ridiculous, I've been able to constantly spot dodge spam a META KNIGHT. Hell, even his JAB of all things I was able to spot dodge spam against with Wario.

Yes, some spot dodges don't need to be tweaked at all and have fine punishment frames (some heavies seem to have punishable spot dodges like DK's or Bowser's) but, out of those five heavies there's three that have safe spot dodges: DDD, Snake, and Ganondorf. I can never hit Ganondorf after he's spot dodged as he can just use his new jab to hit you away after he's spot dodged your attack (since it now comes out on Frame 5 I believe). Snake's spot dodge is notorious for being quite good but, I don't thin it can be spammed, mainly spot dodge > jab or spot dodge > Ftilt/Utilt come from it (which you know you're going to eat). As for DDD, the only things he can do from a spot dodge are Ftilt, Dtilt, and grab.

Just some examples of spot dodges I've personally experienced as being quite too good, even Diddy Kong's is quite good as well. A lot of cast, I'd argue, have too many options after they have done a spot dodge and it mostly winds up being a Dsmash or some other quick move.

My main problem with'em is how unpunishable most of them are and that comes with the fact that you rarely ever actually have to time the spot dodge like you have to in Melee. Trust me on this, I can't do it in Melee the way I do it in Brawl. It just doesn't work because of no IASA and the spot dodges actually have punishment frames in Melee.

 

[Shell]

I would support universally trimming spot-dodges, but I do have an issue with targeting a heavy's already strained defensive options.

Here's a list (which I hope is accurate) taken from here

Spot Dodge

2-20 / 22 Link
2-20 / 22 Pikachu
2-20 / 22 Falco
2-20 / 22 Yoshi
2-20 / 22 Toon Link
2-20 / 24 Marth

2-20 / 25 Mario
2-20 / 25 Samus
2-20 / 25 Zero Suit Samus
2-20 / 25 Kirby
2-20 / 25 Fox
2-20 / 25 Game & Watch
2-20 / 25 Luigi
2-20 / 25 Diddy
2-20 / 25 Zelda
2-20 / 25 Sheik
2-20 / 25 Pit
2-20 / 25 Metaknight
2-20 / 25 Squirtle
2-20 / 25 Ivysaur
2-20 / 25 Charizard
2-20 / 25 Ike
2-20 / 25 Snake
2-20 / 25 Peach
2-20 / 25 Ganondorf
2-20 / 25 Ice Climbers
2-20 / 25 Wolf
2-20 / 25 Lucario
2-20 / 25 Ness
2-20 / 25 Sonic
2-20 / 25 Wario
2-20 / 25 R.O.B
2-20 / 25 Captain Falcon
2-20 / 25 Lucas

3-20 / 25 Olimar
3-16 / 25 Jigglypuff
2-20 / 27 King Dedede
2-23 / 30 Donkey Kong
3-24 / 32 Bowser

As you can see, Snake, DDD, and Ganondorf all have spotdodges equivalent to or worse (DDD) than the rest of the cast. Furthermore, the majority of the cast has a jab / equivalent that can land on frame 3, with a handful later and a handful earlier. I don't really see these characters as the main problem characters at all.

To me, (near) universal and (near) equivalent trimming is the best way to go about it.

 

[VietGeek]

**** it why does Sakurai have a thing for making ALL of Falco's defensive options so good?

That bird needs to die in a crash. V_V

Also for the record, we need to look at individualizing teching speed-ups by a per-character basis. GnW & Falcon definitely need a 1.3x speed-up, but some people got more than they EVER deserved. =V

 

[Revven]

I'm not sure if we can do that with PSA, Viet, but if you find out we can then that would be great. Otherwise, it's just another thing to add to the frame speed modifier.

 

[VietGeek]

The frame speed mod already has individual tech speed-ups (although all of them are at 1.3x) because the wildcard function doesn't work.

So not really adding, more like...tweaking.

 

[The Cape]

Yea, we just need specific values for the tech rolls and the spot dodges also need some trimming with more punishment frames on them, maybe make them a bit closer to a 60% invincible and 40% vulnerable instead of 90/10.

Rolls could use a bit more vulnerable frames near the end as roll to roll is still relatively powerful.

Having a good defensive thing is a good thing, having a defensive game that is far better than the offensive game, thats a problem.

 

[Yeroc]

I think, for spot dodges, we should look into just adding a couple frames here or there to the ends. I don't think simply removing invincibility frames like I did to AD's would work as well with spot dodges because while it lowers the ratio of invinc/cooldown frames and thus require more precision to be effective, I think the overall duration of the dodge would be too short and still allow for fairly easy counter attacking because of the relative immobility of the players during the dodge/attack sequence. Though it could be argued that fast dodges are a good thing for the pace of the gameplay, which I'm willing to test and consider.

Shieldstun I think is a little wonky. I think the curve is disproportionate, like there's just a tad too little on low damage attacks (like a frame or two) but more than you'd expect on higher damage moves (like Peach's fair). If we were to experiment with a slightly smaller multiplier (1._x instead of 2) and then adjust the added portion to compensate for lower and middle stun values.

All in all, I'm with Cape in that I don't want a subpar defensive system, but just one that doesn't overshadow the offense, because then playing defensively becomes the primary focus and we lose interest from people looking for new exciting gameplay.