Seriously. I've had people celebrating after perfect meteor smashes, only for me to come back from just near the blast line. Lucario can literally recover from anywhere he pleases, vertically and horizontally.
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Recovery Rankings
- Thread starter One Tilt
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Darklink401
Smash Master
And when in doubt, he can rock smash while falling to have super armor as well.
One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
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Hm... you make a good point, but I'm still not certain of whether ZSS is on-par with Sheik or the likes in terms of safety. ZSS's recovery is fantastic, but it's just that bit more possible to find yourself unable to recover than Sheik or Villager... Should someone else move up to keep distance? Others move down? It's a bit hard to tell-- but I do know that I've had mildly more success hitting ZSS out of recovery than Sheik... but perhaps it's about equal to Zelda... Hm. Recovering from spikes when low % is still a factor. While not many can recover from a spike, it's still relevant simply because of those who can (Pikachu, Lucario, Villager). It's certainly less important than most factors, given how universally spikes can KO, but it's hard to tell whether outliers like spikes benefit or harm the rankings' accuracy to incorporate... Could someone give me some extra information on their take on ZSS's consistency and range? Ideally, compared to others at A and A+ ranges.
Completely fair assessment, and I'll be creating an S- tier to increase clarity-- as well as possibly an S+ tier, if such a need proves to exist. Whether Lucario belongs even in S- is, of course, still open to discussion, I've just personally had no luck ever KOing a Lucario without a clean KO move. I haven't faced nearly enough of them to be any expert on the matter, so I appreciate any input I can get on his safety. I also imagine his counter makes for an extra tool just as LM's does, thinking of it. Would S- be a fit? Should others be in S- with/above Lucario? Is the idea of S- superfluous to begin with? Either way, Pikachu being in its own tier does make more sense.
If Falcon could use his up B after side B, he'd be nearly as good as Luigi, in theory (a similarly gimp-vulnerable character). He cannot, which puts him below C tier's Luigi, but I can see him being argued as a C-, given that he has better vertical range than Bowser, better horizontal range than Mario, and similar speed/gimpability issues to DHD. That said, I can't imagine him being C tier without things moving around a fair bit more-- Luigi's horizontal range sans double jump matches Falcon's with, and Luigi's up B, while piddly, does at least move quickly-- and he has down B to help with the range. Bowser may move up within C- to stay ahead of Falcon, unless the previous points on him outdoing Falcon's recovery prove insufficient. Appreciate the detailed inspection of his options.
Villager can recover from any nonlethal hit and still land on any platform on Battlefield (or go under the stage) to do so. While one may only need recover once, ever from the bottom corners of the blast zones with no double jump, that's still something no other character can claim to be capable of bar possibly max-aura Lucario. While he may not be as good as the teleports/Greninja, and he can be placed at bottom A+ to reflect that regardless, is he not better than Jiggly/Metaknight? Villager has moved between A and A+ more times than I can count, and neither feels 'right'... Should I make an S- tier for Lucario, Sheik, Greninja, and possibly Zelda and then have Villager in with ZSS and possible G&W/Palutena in a newly-emptied A+ tier? (With others shifting up into tiers like A-- pondering the Pits passing Kirby/Dedede, but not sold on any decisions there...). Doing this would let others move up, while Olimar could remain where he is but slide down within his tier-- though I can see him being closer to Yoshi/Peach...
And yes, Dr. Mario's recovery is pretty atrocious-- his up B has similar range to Little Mac, while his lack of cape-stalling and the like means his horizontal recovery is just as bad as LM's... his only boon vs LM is that he moves quicker with his up B and that it has some diagonal range, but I can't call it any better than Ganondorf's. Try Mario out in training-- Doc's recovery will provoke tears by comparison. That said, he could feasibly be as high as Ganondorf... but not past 'dorf.
Actually, Pikachu can use his up B vertically twice. That's not enough to recover from a Bowsercide [citation needed], but it's more than enough vertical range to even survive many nonlethal spikes. Still, Pikachu's weakest recovery area is against a wall in an omega stage, since that double vertical quick attack is so mechanically stressful to actually do. Either way, 'best' needn't mean 'perfect', only 'better than the rest', and Pikachu still feels to qualify for that, as the only ones who beat its vertical range tend to lack for its safety (i.e. Villager).
He was moved up in 2.5, but his fuel can be gimped away and his speed when recovering is quite slow (giving the foe time to gimp a greater % of the time ROB'd be offstage). He has range like Olimar, but he lacks what makes Olimar able to spam his when knocked out of it. That said, it's difficult to compare his recovery to Link/Fox and the like, so I'll go on record as saying 'no better than Olimar' is a strict maximum for ROB's potential. That said, I wouldn't expect him to pass Diddy Kong, who has gimping issues as well despite good range-- though Diddy can reuse his up B if needed [citation needed]. ROB could move up within his tier to be right beside Fox, I suppose-- both have great range and some options, but gimping issues... though, Fox still seems better at the moment, given his greater airspeed when recovering. If you disagree with ROB's placement, by all means share your experiences!Why isso low? ._.
As it stands, even Shulk's monado art jump recovery is a bit situational. I don't think Kirby having it is even remotely necessary to show, as it'd potentially need its own S+ tier just to have a place, but I can add it if people feel it would have a purpose in clarity (rather than just seem like a joke).
Charizard's placement hasn't changed since 1.0, so it's bound to be a bit off. I hadn't considered Flare Blitz as a recovery, nor did I know that Fly had super armor-- his iffy vertical range just got shelved because that combination makes for some far better recovery than I'd first expected. He could go as high as B-, in that case-- while he lacks the range of Samus vertically, potentially matching Fox's horizontal range and having super armor like Ike would be enough to feasibly see him at B-... though, if his range is that much worse, he may still only be at C-ish ranges. Either way, he's definitely moving up in 2.6, the only question will be how far-- thanks for speaking up about a character who clearly got lost in the shuffle and misplaced!
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Another update will likely happen tomorrow-- I'm going to wait a moment to hear out input on the idea of an S- tier (along with giving people a chance to reply and all). ROB may move up within his tier, Falcon might go past DHD (with Bowser moving to just behind Mario), an S- tier may have a lot of movement (Lucario'll be moving down to it and teleporters/Greninja moving past Villager, most likely)... I might move Dr. Mario up to below Ganon and move LM up to D-, and I expect some bit of chaos within B and B+ if the tiers get more breathing room. Alternatively, I could slide everyone down a bit and leave the singular S tier as-is, thinking of it... Regardless, Charizard is moving up. Likely to low B or high C-- I just need to know how far he should move. Speaking of super armor, Ike might step back down a bit-- I've been using him a lot, and Aether is a miiiite less safe than the hyper armor implies, given how it can royally screw you if you get hit out of the end of it.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Not jump art Kirby.
Jump art + Hammer Bash Kirby with Final Cutter.
(Hammer bash immediately after jumping to go even higher vertically).
Jump art + Hammer Bash Kirby with Final Cutter.
(Hammer bash immediately after jumping to go even higher vertically).
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Antonykun
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Bruh
David Viran
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Did you know that if sheik and maybe zelda if they auto snap the ledge with there up b there is actually one or two frames where they are vulnerable. Now this is difficult to take advantage of and I don't know if this will change much but I thought i'd throw that out there. Zss's recovery isn't braindead easy as sheik where up special safe kinda thing but if you know what you are doing you should never be gimped as no character can effectivly gimp zss or sheik for that matter. I've been watching competetive smash 4 play from the beggining and have yet to see a zss get gimped in high level play.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
I don't think Ike should move down at all. His aether is actually too good. Not only because of super armor, but also because he can ward off any edgeguard that doesnt shield, as aether goes under the stage. Also his up B can be used after side B if side B hits someone trying to gimp him.
And yeah I figure charizard could be much higher, because of just how much bloody super armor he has XP
And yeah I figure charizard could be much higher, because of just how much bloody super armor he has XP
One Tilt
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Hm... I think Charizard might fit a step below Ike, thinking of it more. It's a Fox/Falco style comparison, where they have similar properties (a side B for horizontal recovery, super armor on up B, liited diagonal range from corner areas, average vertical range), but one is strictly a bit better (I'd say Ike's at least a step above Charizard, though, as with anything here, that's of course open to debate). The next update will be later today-- going to try and test Charizard a bit more in the meanwhile to compare other factors against Ike, among others.
Appreciate the input on Ike, by the way-- I may have been biased after taking him up as my 'flavor of the week' main-- I tend to worry about overstating characters the more I use them. ^^"
Darklink401
Smash Master
I'd say Ike's recovery is actually inferior.
Aether IS better than Charizard's fly...BUT
Flare Blitz can be used to recover ALONGSIDE Fly unconditionally, whereas Ike's side B needs to hit someone, and has a short timeframe in which Aether can then be performed.
Also Charizard's multiple jumps allow for some more recovery mixups.
AND Ike's side B doesnt have super armor. Ike doesnt need to drop, but, IMO, Charizard is DEFINITELY superior to Ike when recovering. It's SO hard to gimp charizard, but Ike...well, all he's got goin for him is a counter to prevent gimping, and charizard has Rock Smash, which might as well BE A counter, since it has super armor and attacks XD
One Tilt
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Hm... valid points, valid points. Alright, equal to or a bit above Ike, then-- though his limited vertical recovery and reliance on jumps still has me hesitant to put him too much farther as an initial move.
Speaking of multiple jumps, though, in the 'make an S- tier' idea, I've been having some trouble with figuring out who's better/worse among the floaters and the 'flight trio'. MK and Jiggly feel to be a step above Kirby/Dedede, but I can't say I know any more than that. MK has mixups and a better up B, while Jiggs has rising pounds, but that 'step above' could be within the same tier, even... MK and Jiggs are currently alone in A (the rest moved up), but whether they belong there or who might belong next to them or so on is feeling... vague. Will be testing them alongside Charizard now, and the update might be delayed further until I get more of a clear picture (as well as decide whether to add even more tiers like S+, or just drop everyone a letter, or so on...).
Any thoughts on how they stack up?
Darklink401
Smash Master
- His up B snaps to the ledge fast, and his side B is also great for recovery since you can angle it. There really is nothing bad about this man's recovery. I mean, it was better in Brawl, but hey, things happen. - Ahhh...I mean, multijumps + up B. Got nothing much to say, really. - A footstool will end her. But her horizontal recovery is crazy. - So much recovery from such a heavy-ass character. Gordos can stop a lot of unplanned edgeguards, and the fact he can cancel his up B at some point is...ugh. - Nope. Has a lot of range, but I have bad experiences getting flung upward, trying to go back to the stage, but falling straight down because I was facing the wrong direction. Everyone here is likely better XP...likely XD/ - Side-B, multiple jumps, AND great up B. Also can halt edgeguards. From best to worst (though I'm not an expert) I'd say...
1.
/2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
One Tilt
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Yeah-- in testing Rosalina, she feels below Pit pretty clearly, and Metaknight's recovery is still looking to be pretty damn good... Dedede may be gimpable out of up B, but I've still seen him recover from spikes that would kill most anyone else barring Villager/Lucario or the like... Appreciate the feedback!
From best to worst (though I'm not an expert) I'd say...
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
I dig the OP, & at first I felt Charizard was a little too low as well, except when I remember all the times I would align myself with the ledge & time a Flare Blitz to auto-snap the ledge. . .& then Flare Blitz getting stopped in its tracks by a projectile like Link's arrow, thus Charizard recoils in his fashion, ruining that plan. Dealing 4% to yourself is just the small price to pay for getting back to the ledge, but colliding with strong projectiles makes that tiny 4% jump to 9% all the while you may not be able to recover back. Basically I think Charizard is fine where he's at on the list ranking. Even if Flare Blitz has Super Armor it doesn't mean the move is solid for recovering all the way through.
As for Jump Shulk, I feel he should be higher than the very bottom of B+ Tier. The superior air speed, falling speed, & jump height make Jump so good for recovering that you can recover in several different ways, even by the bottom corner's blast area & coming back. When you're recovering from the high corner, activate Jump & drift forward with the air speed alone to be overhead the stage level. Let's say you're hit in Shield mode, so you cancel it to switch to Jump & recover by drifting + DoubleJump. At times you don't need your Air Slash, but depending on how you were launched, drifting + DoubleJump can grab the ledge, or set you up perfectly to use Air Slash if needed. And even if you lose your DoubleJump, drifting forward + Air Slash can barely recover back if not barely missing it.
I think the Speed & Shield Arts could be added to the Tier List as well; I'd put Speed mode in B Tier since you have great air speed, but your jump height is reduced. Speed is better recovering horizontally than vertically, but the vertical reduction hinders it enough to put the Art in that Tier. For Shield mode I'd put it beside Little Mac. I won't put too much reasoning into it, since the majority of players are aware that Shield is bad for recovering, but basically Shield's vertical recovery is better, while Little Mac has greater horizontal recovery.
As for Jump Shulk, I feel he should be higher than the very bottom of B+ Tier. The superior air speed, falling speed, & jump height make Jump so good for recovering that you can recover in several different ways, even by the bottom corner's blast area & coming back. When you're recovering from the high corner, activate Jump & drift forward with the air speed alone to be overhead the stage level. Let's say you're hit in Shield mode, so you cancel it to switch to Jump & recover by drifting + DoubleJump. At times you don't need your Air Slash, but depending on how you were launched, drifting + DoubleJump can grab the ledge, or set you up perfectly to use Air Slash if needed. And even if you lose your DoubleJump, drifting forward + Air Slash can barely recover back if not barely missing it.
I think the Speed & Shield Arts could be added to the Tier List as well; I'd put Speed mode in B Tier since you have great air speed, but your jump height is reduced. Speed is better recovering horizontally than vertically, but the vertical reduction hinders it enough to put the Art in that Tier. For Shield mode I'd put it beside Little Mac. I won't put too much reasoning into it, since the majority of players are aware that Shield is bad for recovering, but basically Shield's vertical recovery is better, while Little Mac has greater horizontal recovery.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Doesn't Dedede have super armor in his upB?
And I meant that he can cancel it, as in, he can literally just let himself fall in the middle of his up B, and if hes close enough he will grab the ledge and you will look like an idiot trying to uair or fair him from high up.
One Tilt
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Hm... I can see your point, and jump Shulk can move up accordingly-- though I don't think placing his other Monado Arts is necessary until we get a bit further along-- as with Mii recoveries and custom movesets.
As for Charizard, I do feel like his recovery is similar to Ike's. Ike has less horizontal range and safety, but better vertical range... but they do feel similar. The super armor on his up B is what has Charizard moving up, more than anything, but the side B's super armor certainly doesn't hurt.
I recall that being a thing, yeah. He has some armor in his up B, but he can still be hit out of it on occasion-- still, he'll be next to MK rather than Jiggly next update (later tonight/this morning). Jiggly's footstool weakness is having it move to Kirby-tier or so, methinks.
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Updated to 2.6!
A new S- tier has been added, to get Lucario out of S and move others with 'practically perfect' recovery (Shiek/Greninja/Zelda/ZSS) in alongside him. S will remain for 'the very best, like no one ever was'. Villager is NOT moving, because moving everyone else is a loophole, so I don't need to keep shuffling Villager about every update. Palutena and G&W are up next to Villager, for all being 'nearly S- material', but lacking that tiny bit of range or safety it'd take to be 'practically perfect'. Dedede and Pit up next to Metaknight, as I'd not counted Pit's multiple jumps in my last placements and Dedede feels about as safe as MK, but Jiggly's down by Kirby for having that footstool gimp vulnerability. Wario is up to A-, as he can recover from literally the bottom corners with bike tricks even ignoring the waft-jump... and I wouldn't be surprised if he climbed further, but testing his gimpability is really tricky. Rosalina is down to Wario's old slot, for being a lot less consistent than Pit and lacking safety besides. Charizard is the biggest news, up all the way to the tip top of B for outdoing Ike and Yoshi in terms of safety and super armor, with B rearranged a bit. Diddy drops a bit to be nearer to Fox, for feeling similarly 'gimpable, but has range', while ROB is at the top of C+ rather than the bottom of B-, which means absolutely nothing, because he doesn't pass anyone! DHD is down a tad, as his gimpability-plus-range feels very Ness-ish, while Falcon's up nearer to Bowser, as he doesn't feel quiiiite as limited as DK. That said, DK moved past Ness, for being far less gimpable. Doc's up behind Ganon to lessen the silly tier surplus near the bottom. And E tier is renamed to D-... because I refuse to say I moved Little Mac up.
Every time I plan a smaller update, tons of little tweaks tend to have it looking far crazier than I intended... though, honestly, the main change is Charizard.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Have you considered, regarding Villager, that he can pretend he's gonna go under the stage to the other side, to make the opponent run to that side, then actually just go to the original side? This basically guarantees safe recovery. (at least it has so far, every time I've tried it)
I think what's so great about Villager's is that, while slow, can be manipulated quite a bit.
Also lloid rocket used for recovery is usually always good, because you can just jump off and grab the ledge. (it's a lot faster than the baloons)
Not to mention you can alter its speed, so you can stall so your opponent releases a smash attack or SH fair as a prediction, then speed back up and nail them, sending them back, and then you can either grab ledge or just land on the stage.
I think what's so great about Villager's is that, while slow, can be manipulated quite a bit.
Also lloid rocket used for recovery is usually always good, because you can just jump off and grab the ledge. (it's a lot faster than the baloons)
Not to mention you can alter its speed, so you can stall so your opponent releases a smash attack or SH fair as a prediction, then speed back up and nail them, sending them back, and then you can either grab ledge or just land on the stage.
One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
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Villager has all the tools he needs to recover a vast majority of the time, and that's exactly what A+ tier is for. S- tier is for a recovery that's flat requires a mistake in input or timing to be gimped, and Villager might be just below that threshold... Still, it's a bit of a nightmare to really place Villager, given how he has Lucario's range, myriad options, decent airspeed, and such a difficult-to-measure gimpability. For now, 'best of A+', just ahead of Palutena and G&W, seems fair. A+ is still characters I generally haven't seen in a situation where they 'cannot recover', and A+ is still as good as you would ever /practically/ need... S- and such are superflous in almost any situation, but that doesn't mean they're measurably better. Villager might move more in the future, but the consensus seems to be that no one has any freaking clue because gimping Villager isn't even something that's attempted often enough yet. I'd need a lot of practice against Villager and trying every gimp in the book before I can make any sure assessment, at this point.
We can be sure that, be it +/- 1, Villager is close to where he needs to be, so we can always come back to that later once we get the chance to organize the rest of the rankings a bit more and the like. My focus is on finding outliers like Charizard first, and on getting together groups that have some consensus as being a similar balance of range/safety... as well as getting some solid '<x> is better than <y>' sort of notes to keep track of. At the moment, I'm puzzling over the lower ranks a bit (DHD and Ness, for example), as well as wondering at what changes I made might or mightn't feel justified. Much as I appreciate the input on Villager, I'd still need to know comparisons that make him out to be 'as safe' as someone like Zelda or Lucario... which is hard to judge because of the way V uses mixups and the like to provide safety, rather than crazy speed or intangibility.
In short, those at S- can already recover from almost anywhere, and they can do so safely. If we can prove that Villager can be safe enough to compete, then he'll move up to S-. Alternatively, if someone proves to have too limited a recovery, they can move down, next to Villager, which will raise his 'relative standing' regardless. If he got up B back after being knocked out of it, for example, he'd easily be S-. Or if some method made it practically impossible to land, say, more than a single hit during his up B, and thus assured recovery? I'm going to sit on Villager information for now, in any case, rather than keep tweaking him haphazardly. ^^"
Darklink401
Smash Master
He can use upB after being hit out of it.
To truly make it so he cant use it again you have to hit the balloons and ONLY the baloons.
But I see your point.
Has Ness' double PK thunder been taken into account?
One Tilt
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If you have to hit only the balloons, that certainly puts him higher... but it remains to be seen if that's still as consistent as the long-range teleports and the like, is all. But I didn't know you had to target the balloons to keep him from regaining up B, which is helpful-- still aiming to wait at least another update or so before moving Villager again, though, regardless. Very little about Ness has really been considered, in any case, beyond that he's fairly gimpable and that his recovery can be inconsistent. Given his predictability and lack of real mixups, I'd say he's definitely going to be on the lower end, but he's another that's largely been unmoved (like Charizard before). That said, I sincerely doubt Ness could ever reach, say, Falco.
In any case, information on characters like Ness, who haven't had the chance to really be inspected much yet, is ideal. ^^
Double PK Thunder, though? Do you just mean his reusing it if it gets hit, or is this some specific AT that I've not come across?
Lavani
Indigo Destiny
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If Ness bounces off the stage with PK Thunder 2, he can reuse it once before entering helpless.
Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Thanks to the max for the advancement on Jump Shulk. I appreciate the making of this thread as well, & agree to hold off putting Speed & Shield as well. Not many people discuss about using Speed as means of recovering back because of Jump being the superior mobility Art, yet Speed Shulk has the 2nd fastest horizontal air speed behind Jump Shulk, so hopefully there's some mentioning about Speed recovering in future discussions (Speed activated from high de-confirms the entire edge-guarding process). Shield has the worst horizontal air speed along with having reduced vertical recovery, crippling his DoubleJump & his Up-B Air Slash, so Shield is still probably D or D- tier leaving very little to discuss about Shield Shulk.
I did agree with where Charizard was in 2.5 because of my personal unfavorable experiences of being edge-guarded when using Flare Blitz to recover, but now I agree with where Charizard stands in 2.6 even more. Charizard also has more of a chance to come back to the stage from being relatively low if the stage has flat walls e.g. Omega stages & some lips having wall terrain that Charizard can recoil off of if he loses options recovering from high or mid-level with the ledge.
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One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
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Ah, I'm holding off on custom move analysis until the 'default' list has settled down and reached some degree of general consensus. Getting information that people can use in any context (i.e. even FG) seems like a good start.
Hm... if I can get some testing of speed form in, then it could be worth the try after an update or so-- though, jump is mostly mentioned because it gives a 'best case scenario' for Shulk. I'd expect those to start popping in around version 3, in any case.
Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Right on. Also an advantageous way of making Jump & Speed even better for recovering is by mashing B to deactivate the Art during hit-stun / launch, or cycle to Jump during the hit-stun / launch if you don't have an Art active. The Art will self-activate after hit-stun finishes, but this way you don't have to wait until you're off-stage & proceeding to mash B 4x to deactivate the Art, or pressing B 2x cycling to Jump. The difference seems low, but when you're drifting towards the stage after hit-stun finishes, you'll notice the air speed difference with Vanilla against Jump or Speed.
I think another reason why people mention Jump (besides the given boosts to his overall recovery) is because it's the first Art in the cycle, which I must say is highly convenient. But let's say Jump were to be on cooldown (cooldown = 10 seconds), then it's either Vanilla recovery, or it's Speed. That's basically the only way I can think of players using Speed to recover with atm.
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One Tilt
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Mashing B to deactivate the art... I'm not sure I follow that exact bit of what you mean, there-- can you deactivate an art manually by switching back to its spot on the cycle, or does mashing itself do something, or am I just misinterpreting that altogether? Ah, wait, from the context (mash B x4), I see that you're meaning deactivation of Defense specifically, so I'll assume the 'blank' spot is for deactivation--- good to know. Was aware that you can start to cycle to Jump during hitstun/launch, if only because of how human-nature it is to start mashing for it the second you realize you need to get back onstage from what's going to be quite the deathly launch distance. Where do you think that Defense and, more importantly, Speed might come on the rankings? Given the lack of activity, I think things have settled enough to add them in. Defense definitely feels D+/- range, while Speed feels a letter-or-so above deactivated Shulk... Given your input thus far, I'd certainly say you're apt to have some valuable input on narrowing down where they belong, though. Does Defense feel Little Mac bad? Does Speed feel nearer to Jump, or only a bit above deactivated?
By the by, your color coding is so intuitive to discussion of the Arts that I rather think it a great method for using Shulk on the rankings, rather than the wordy 'with jump monado' parenthetical and such. For that matter, I think gray for Default might increase clarity when discussing Shulk, as well. As always, most definitely appreciate the input, and expect some placement for Shulk next update (likely in a day-ish).
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In any case, at the moment, the characters I'm least certain of are as follows (the 'current suspect test', if you will):
Olimar because his air speed is so vulnerable, like DHD, and, while spikes are able to KO anyone, his lack of safety has me a bit... concerned. Can't say he feels too wrong next to Rosalina, but... maybe she's even too high, given how safe Sonic/Megaman can be... yet, they lack diagonal distance... Pac Man, meanwhile, is almost impossible to rate, given the unique nature of his recovery. Weak hitboxes, repeated bounces, reuse on lost trampoline, side B doesn't cause special fall, great recovery distance, super armor on side B, predictability, wildly variable recovery speed... just in general, I'm having a hard time comparing him. Near to Sonic feels, again, close, but it's a bit hard to really get a read on him in-depth without a lot more playtime, given how unique his recovery is. And that's not even getting into up Bs to force an opponent into the air or Bonus Fruits...
Moving on, though, Peach's floating makes her recovery potentially about the same as Sonic's, and her up B feels far safer than I keep expecting of it, yet, if she gets her double jump taken via some hits, she doesn't even have the recovery of Marth... who I was tempted to add, but, honestly, I can't be sure of how close Marth is/isn't to Samus and co., while being near Falco feels close... BowJow, meanwhile, is a case of far too little information-- his side B means he has more horizontal than Sonic and MM, in theory, but I have no idea how his slower up B and his actions out of it help his safety... I don't feel like he's lower, but it's also hard to justify putting him past others when I'm sincerely at a loss to figure his comparative safety... Speaking of stumped, Diddy has me clueless-- I've used him almost exclusively for testing, and I'm positive that there are far more qualified Diddy mains (if recent trends are any indication, at least) who can update me on his feel when recovering.
DHD has barely moved since the start, in any case, as his similarity to Olimar but worsened speed and range has me wondering if such an extreme distance between them is really justified. Ness is another case of 'hasn't much moved, ever', as all I've really heard of him on is the custom move trick with PK Thunder 2-- he has decent range and all, which Fox has shown can overcome some gimpability on up B, but is that enough to move up? Or is he actually so gimpable that even LM laughs at him? Ganon, meanwhile, hasn't moved when Falcon did, which simply has me a bit wary that Dorf may now be a bit low, given his similar up B and all... though, his side B certainly is quite a difference. Doc has me a bit befuddled, though, as I can finally use his down B on a 3ds (can't test the GCC until adapters stop being out of stock...). Not consistently, granted, but I can use it enough on Luigi to feel he's pretty solid where he's at... but Doc's ability to use down B puts him nearer to Mario, in theory. Still below, I'd suspect, but still... any able to use Doc's down B on the Wii U version that can supplement my testing a bit? 3ds makes a few things difficult...
Also, as an aside, how do Greninjas SD with Shadow Sneak? I've recovered with Hydro Pump after two failed inputs before in testing, because good gog that range... am I just seeing newbies with poor reflexes? Then again, I can't claim I've never lost my place on screen once or twice... ^^"
In any case, next update should be in a day or so... if there's little to change of moving people from tier to tier, by the by, we might start testing for ordering within tiers instead-- as well as adding Mii recoveries (a precursor to custom moves, since Miis are usable with their up Bs in 'non-custom-with-friends'. Currently, testing only covers FG 'legality'. After those, we can get into the custom move tricks and whatnot... though I'm still a bit shakey on how to format that.
Lavani
Indigo Destiny
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
- Messages
- 7,256
By "PK Thunder 2", I meant the recovery aspect of it, not his custom upB 2. Sorry for the confusion.
This is what I meant.
Regarding Olimar, unlike DHD he can attack out of his upB, so he is able to cover himself somewhat. It also goes much further much more quickly without pikmin weighing him down; for example, he can spam his pikmin with sideB (particularly useful for covering him with purples or sideB 3) and then use upB to cross under FD and grab the other ledge without even using his double jump.
These may or may not be points that were already taken into consideration and I don't really disagree with his current rank, but I didn't see any mention of said qualities so there you go.
While his recovery distance is exceptional and he's able to attack and airdodge after upB, he's also very vulnerable to being gimped. I'd knock him down a tier.
I also feel
's recovery is better than that of the other characters in his tier. He has more jumps than them, significantly better airspeed than them, and has multiple different B moves he can recover with depending on situation. upB has superb vertical distance, moves quickly, and the first hit has significant vertical reach that is great at poking opponents on the ledge. sideB has a huge disjoint that eats through projectiles and can potentially stagespike an opponent that jumps offstage to edgeguard. downB gives him an invincible teleport that can end with a kill move if the opponent does something punishable. also seems way too high to me if customs aren't being factored, especially with the recent discovery of ledgegrab vulnerability, her completely non-offensive upB, and the fairly average distance it covers.
One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 155
Aaah... I completely misunderstood you, there, then-- I thought that was for some reason something unique to his 2nd custom move, rather than... okay, Ness definitely deserves more credit, then. Appreciate the correction; sorry for the misinterpretation. If he can stage-bounce ad-infinitum, thinking of it, that might deserve Mario+ levels of recovery... though, I can't really use his up B well enough without my old GCC muscle memory to do too much fancy with it without a lot more practice. Still, I'm sure to test it after a bit (just like Luigi's down B tricks).
Hmm... all true, I just get a bit wary of letting a character sit after several moves when so many of the factors are judgement calls on my part. Most characters are where they are due to plenty of seconded opinions and the like, while I've sort've batted Olimar about 'till he felt 'right'. The only thing I didn't factor was him acting out of up B, which has me more sure of his place now-- appreciate your catching that detail I'd missed!
Hmmm... his inability to repeat up B is most definitely his biggest flaw, then. That has me feeling he might be dead even with ROB, actually-- he has air speed to make up for the difference in distance, but both are subject to 'stall their up B out' style gimps and can act out of up B, so I think it's comparable. Might put him just ahead of ROB (BowJow does still have side B, after all, making him similar to Falco or so), and maaaybe bump WFT down to the top of C (no change in placement, as with the ROB change before-- the tiers are for clarity, but a change between them is far less relevant than passing others... it's all purely comparitive, after all). These example links are brilliant helps for giving clear input, and are immensely helpful.
Hm... all fair points. MK may have had a plethora of nerfs since Brawl, but his recovery surely seems to be one of the least affected areas (neutral B nerf aside). In fact, his down B buff nearly makes up for that entirely... alright, MK taking Palutena's old spot while she's knocked down two tiers-- all the safety in the world will never shake my feeling that her range is incredibly underwhelming for a teleport, and if there's any point of vulnerability, that's the keynote that'll sound her fall from A tiers... though, for the moment, A- seems a fair adjustment, if only the bottom rung of A-. I've had an itchy trigger finger for Palutena falling for a while now, but her 'complete safety' arguments were really difficult to break through.I also feel
---
Fantastic help with all your links and detailed explanations-- I've a lot more to go on now for the next update! ^^
If anyone else has thoughts to share, by all means!
Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
To clarify for my miscommunication, I noticed my last post that I said some errors such as "or pressing B 2x to cycle to Jump" & "is by mashing B to deactivate the Art during hit-stun / launch". Deactivating "the Art" implies it's a MArt that's not Jump or Speed. With that cleared up, mashing the B button can be done as soon as you're thrown depending on how fast & early you start mashing B, affecting how much quicker your current MArt deactivates. So it's much easier to deactivate a MArt from a throw but not so much a regular attack launching you, since you have to worry about juggling multiple inputs like DI'ing in order to survive first, & whether or not you think about Crouch Canceling to reduce the knockback.
Upon recently learning about the air speeds of the cast by studying this Thread, we learn that Jump indeed has the fastest air speed in the game if we're disregarding Custom Specials for the moment. Speed has the 3rd fastest air speed, & Shield is tied with King Dedede for having the worst air speed in the game. We also notice that Ganondorf is way down there with Shield Shulk as well, on top of Shield mode reducing your DoubleJump's jump height, Shield's ranking to be lower than Ganondorf is plausible. Little Mac is somewhat of a case due to his terrible Specials for recovery, yet Little Mac's air speed is not as bad as his recovery options, which I guess you could say just compensates. And finally, comparing Dr. Mario to Shield Shulk, Dr. Mario's air speed is higher than Ganondorf but lower than Little Mac, & his recovery options are limited. I also completely forgot about Shulk utilizing his Vision counter for edge-guard breaking purposes, though it's not a reliable option 100% of the time, but it's something to make note of.
My verdict: Place Shield mode in the D tier, behind Ganondorf & in front of Dr. Mario. Shield recovers similarly to Ganondorf, but has about as much recovery options as Dr. Mario. Shield has better reach vertically than Dr. Mario despite his bad air speed & jump height, not to mention it's still Shulk, having good range to his attacks for edge-guard breaking.
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As for Speed. . .it's going to be trickier figuring out exactly where he'd be placed. The air Sspeed factor is definitely a plus, & Speed doesn't naturally have faster falling speed like Jump does, but again Speed doesn't have any extra recovery options other than the air speed alone. So Speed is heavy on horizontally recovering effectively despite the Jump Height reduction, which means Speed can easily recover back from being high, high-mid, mid, mid-low, & from low. However, due to the Jump Height decrease, Speed cannot recover from being very low even when DoubleJumping & Air Slashing with both hits. As an example for comparison, Speed's air speed surpasses Jigglypuff, but in terms of recovery options, Shulk lacks them, so Speed can't be in A- tier with Jump. If we tried putting Speed on the lower rankings like C+ Tier, Speed wouldn't fit that Tier either. .
A general area of where Speed lies may go in between B+ Tier, & B- Tier. Somewhere in that range is a fitting place for Speed to be. I'd help try pinpointing where Speed lies in the Tier ranking, yet the majority of Shulk players afaik don't normally use Speed for recovering, we mostly use Speed for edge-guarding if we go off-stage. To make this easier, I'd opt to suggest that Speed would be lower than Yoshi, but higher than Samus.
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One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 155
Updated to 2.7! Additionally, the first post has been re-written, (hopefully) to something that might explain the idea a bit better, since I've found pockets of confusion here and there caused by the initial write-up. ^^"
Zelda is taking the slightest hit, to just above Villager, for having zero real mixups in recovering (which feels almost like a requirement for S-, given the look of the rest of its population). She's certainly still great, but someone might still take advantage of her predictability, if nothing else (ledge trumping, hits prior to up B, et cetera). Palutena, on the other hand, is taking a much more major hit, down a full letter to settle just before Olimar. Her range is just too average for its safety in-transit to take her that far past similarly safe sorts like Charizard-- particularly given that 'zard has much better horizontal range, has some mixups, and also has hitboxes. Ledge trumping issues really do knock the 'safety' air from Palutena's A-tier wings, though.
Options is the key factor in much of the changes this time around, really, and Metaknight's all but the king of that, putting him up a step for having far more options than his multijumping peers (not to mention his airspeed), while Sonic is tentatively up by Wario for having the ability to neutral B along with up B, more options than the otherwise-similar MM, who was equal for having better coverage in crash bomber despite a bit of inferior range. Rosalina, meanwhile, is down even further, but just shifting within B, as Olimar and MM's ability to act out of up B is considered because, well, options! Fox, in a perhaps questionable move on my part, is up yet again, if only to pass Diddy Kong-- Diddy's rocketbarrel feels infinitely more gimpable, and I honestly suspect it was bias on my part keeping Fox so near to Falco despite their hugely different up B ranges. Reflector stalling certainly doesn't hurt Fox in the options department, though, for the record.
The Speed and Defense Monado arts have been placed for Shulk, mostly following Masonomace's incredibly detailed input on their placements, but both starting at the ends of their respective tiers for the fact that cycling to Speed in a pinch means lost air time, while Defense is below Doc simply because of DMMD's down B, which is a bit hard to account for. They may rise, but I'd rather be a mite conservative with their starting placement... Bowser Jr. is also down in the most drastic step other than Palutena, for having a limited-usage up B like ROB and similar range to Falco-- he's feeling right nearer to the both of them as a result (albeit still above them). WFT is down the slightest tick, not passing anyone, just looking a bit better at the top of the next tier down rather than at the end of a crowded one. Ness, though, is actually up a fair bit-- practice with the Wii U version has shown his up B bouncing and overall feel to be a lot less limiting and vulnerable than initially speculated, so it feels 'solidly limited', like others of the tier (Robin, Luigi, et cetera).
And the changelog has been updated with color coding-- red for characters moving down, green for those moving up. Updating the changelog is normally unannounced and little details, but, whatever. I broke down and grabbed the Wii U version literal hours ago, and have only had time to much test Ness, but I lack the GCC adapter, so I'm settling for the still-better-than-the-3ds Pro Controller as a stopgap. At least it has a 'c-stick', even if it's misplaced... Anywho, my testing should ramp up a bit after the holidays, given that I can get more out of the Wii U version than the 3ds one.
As for the next update, my main thought is on the Miis! While there are still certainly suspects, I'm curious to see where we might be able to place the Miis, now. As for formatting, I'm thinking that 'Gunner 1' or 'Brawler 3' or such, with the up B representing the number, might be a start... I know height/weight affects range, speed, and hitboxes, but I've had no word on how they may or may not affect recovery. If they do, that certainly complicates things, but the differences are likely quite minor... Alternatively, I could perhaps just average each Mii fighter's options, considering all specials, if they happen to all be relatively similar or some can be ignored as 'never used' or whatnot... Main thing I'm aware of as a wildcard is the Gunner's Magnet floating as a recovery tool, though.
(As a quick aside, DMMD is now my new favorite thing to call Doctor Mario.)
Zelda is taking the slightest hit, to just above Villager, for having zero real mixups in recovering (which feels almost like a requirement for S-, given the look of the rest of its population). She's certainly still great, but someone might still take advantage of her predictability, if nothing else (ledge trumping, hits prior to up B, et cetera). Palutena, on the other hand, is taking a much more major hit, down a full letter to settle just before Olimar. Her range is just too average for its safety in-transit to take her that far past similarly safe sorts like Charizard-- particularly given that 'zard has much better horizontal range, has some mixups, and also has hitboxes. Ledge trumping issues really do knock the 'safety' air from Palutena's A-tier wings, though.
Options is the key factor in much of the changes this time around, really, and Metaknight's all but the king of that, putting him up a step for having far more options than his multijumping peers (not to mention his airspeed), while Sonic is tentatively up by Wario for having the ability to neutral B along with up B, more options than the otherwise-similar MM, who was equal for having better coverage in crash bomber despite a bit of inferior range. Rosalina, meanwhile, is down even further, but just shifting within B, as Olimar and MM's ability to act out of up B is considered because, well, options! Fox, in a perhaps questionable move on my part, is up yet again, if only to pass Diddy Kong-- Diddy's rocketbarrel feels infinitely more gimpable, and I honestly suspect it was bias on my part keeping Fox so near to Falco despite their hugely different up B ranges. Reflector stalling certainly doesn't hurt Fox in the options department, though, for the record.
The Speed and Defense Monado arts have been placed for Shulk, mostly following Masonomace's incredibly detailed input on their placements, but both starting at the ends of their respective tiers for the fact that cycling to Speed in a pinch means lost air time, while Defense is below Doc simply because of DMMD's down B, which is a bit hard to account for. They may rise, but I'd rather be a mite conservative with their starting placement... Bowser Jr. is also down in the most drastic step other than Palutena, for having a limited-usage up B like ROB and similar range to Falco-- he's feeling right nearer to the both of them as a result (albeit still above them). WFT is down the slightest tick, not passing anyone, just looking a bit better at the top of the next tier down rather than at the end of a crowded one. Ness, though, is actually up a fair bit-- practice with the Wii U version has shown his up B bouncing and overall feel to be a lot less limiting and vulnerable than initially speculated, so it feels 'solidly limited', like others of the tier (Robin, Luigi, et cetera).
And the changelog has been updated with color coding-- red for characters moving down, green for those moving up. Updating the changelog is normally unannounced and little details, but, whatever. I broke down and grabbed the Wii U version literal hours ago, and have only had time to much test Ness, but I lack the GCC adapter, so I'm settling for the still-better-than-the-3ds Pro Controller as a stopgap. At least it has a 'c-stick', even if it's misplaced... Anywho, my testing should ramp up a bit after the holidays, given that I can get more out of the Wii U version than the 3ds one.
As for the next update, my main thought is on the Miis! While there are still certainly suspects, I'm curious to see where we might be able to place the Miis, now. As for formatting, I'm thinking that 'Gunner 1' or 'Brawler 3' or such, with the up B representing the number, might be a start... I know height/weight affects range, speed, and hitboxes, but I've had no word on how they may or may not affect recovery. If they do, that certainly complicates things, but the differences are likely quite minor... Alternatively, I could perhaps just average each Mii fighter's options, considering all specials, if they happen to all be relatively similar or some can be ignored as 'never used' or whatnot... Main thing I'm aware of as a wildcard is the Gunner's Magnet floating as a recovery tool, though.
(As a quick aside, DMMD is now my new favorite thing to call Doctor Mario.)
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Upon learning this recently, Jump is exclusive to Shulk for being the only MArt that increases the vertical height of Air Slash. So Speed & Shield do not increase or decrease the vertical height of Air Slash, but they do increase or decrease the drifting you have after Air Slash finishes. It doesn't change much, but it's something kinda good to know.
(Key: D = Decisive & H = Hyper, for my Jargon terms D is for Decisive Monado Arts & H is for Hyper Monado Arts)
This also means that DJump & HJump are the only Custom MArts that increase Air Slash's height, & that DSpeed HSpeed DShield & HShield do not decrease or increase the height of any of the Air Slash customs.
(Key: D = Decisive & H = Hyper, for my Jargon terms D is for Decisive Monado Arts & H is for Hyper Monado Arts)
This also means that DJump & HJump are the only Custom MArts that increase Air Slash's height, & that DSpeed HSpeed DShield & HShield do not decrease or increase the height of any of the Air Slash customs.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Just wondering, what's the difference between Peach and Game and Watch, except for the fact that Peach can cancel her umbrella and put it up again midair as much as she wants, while G&W can only be in his parachute once?
Raijinken
Smash Master
Is this all based on distance or is safety factored in with any significant weight? With Rosalina's being predictable and vulnerable, there are many others I feel should be similarly placed.
G&W has distance but little safety. Ike only has safety vertically, and not much at that (very unsafe horizontal). If Greninja's recovery is S-, I can't understand why it's above Villager's, which is nigh-impossible for most characters to intercept fully, and renders him more or less immune to gimps outright.
And honestly, I'd put Doc in D- and bump Mac to F (or just lower in D-). Shulk's recovery still has vertical during Shield, and he's also capable of swapping off in capable hands. I don't think that warrants bumping him up, but it makes Doc's feel even worse.
Pretty good list either way. I'd call it more or less accurate.
G&W has distance but little safety. Ike only has safety vertically, and not much at that (very unsafe horizontal). If Greninja's recovery is S-, I can't understand why it's above Villager's, which is nigh-impossible for most characters to intercept fully, and renders him more or less immune to gimps outright.
And honestly, I'd put Doc in D- and bump Mac to F (or just lower in D-). Shulk's recovery still has vertical during Shield, and he's also capable of swapping off in capable hands. I don't think that warrants bumping him up, but it makes Doc's feel even worse.
Pretty good list either way. I'd call it more or less accurate.
Darklink401
Smash Master
Safety. if it was only distance, Villager would be 1st.
Though I do feel he will end up rising. After all, he can even do a wavebounced pocket to dodge midair.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Fair enough. I guess there's a lot of development to be seen before we really decide what's "safe" and what isn't. It just struck me as odd that a recovery as long-range and flexible as Villager's would be lower than Greninja and Lucarios, which strike me as both less safe (especially Lucario's in many cases with its extended endlag) and less distant (mostly Greninja of those examples).
Of course, my player pool is pretty small since I don't play online that often. There's little doubt that Villager's recovery is far more interceptable than I see it as.
Darklink401
Smash Master
I believe they're both fater due to being much harder to gimp due to the fact that both Greninja and Lucario's upBs are fast, while Villager's is....kinda slow XP
Though Lloid rocket itself is pretty darn fast =P
Raijinken
Smash Master
At least in my experience, the balloons can be rather misguiding for people trying to hit Villager, plus he can always use the move again if he doesn't die during the hitstun from the guard. Whereas Greninja's is a slower Quick Attack that doesn't deal damage, and Lucario's recovery leaves him open for days if he doesn't land the hit on the enemy or make a smooth landing.
Darklink401
Smash Master
He actually does deal damage with his recovery, but I'm with you, I agree Villager needs to be a bit more up. But it's been decided we want to get everyone else settled in before even beginning to mess with Villager =P
One Tilt
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 155
Shield doesn't decrease the distance? I'd only been testing it with the double-jump, so my placement could be a bit off-- might be a step above Doc. I feel that either simply typing 'Hyper Jump' or the like or using the numbers (for uniformity) would be ideal-- over-abbreviating will inevitably lead to a key, which would just mean a failure of communication. I'll need to think around the format a bit before custom moves will be comfortable to include-- maybe just make a full-on table of it and such...
Game & Watch is evidently intangible during his up B's launch animation, to start, while it has some bit of extra distance. Add a hitbox on the way up and you've nearly got a teleport in terms of safety, and the ability to act out of up B is certainly never a bad thing. Mostly, it's just that Game & Watch has more vertical distance and can't be hit out of his up B, though. That said, if you think Peach should rise or G&W is too high, then by all means, I'm all for taking into account new information I might've missed-- or even correcting if I've gotten something simply abjectly wrong (G&W may even be hittable out of up B if I've simply had some truly off testing; I rarely get much chance to test things like armor/intangibility properties given my minimal access to, well, non-for-glory multiplayer).
Safety and distance are roughly equally weighted at this point, with an average distance but good safety or good range with average safety being the standard for B-ish range, while S takes some extreme of both, and A tiers are often an extreme of one with 'enough' of the other. Plenty of factors like options and the like have their own influence, of course, but they typically tend to be used to influence range+safety 'initial placements'.
Rosalina has no hitboxes nor evasion (armor or intangibility or such) on her up B, which is the key distinction between hers and G&W. She can move further down, or back up, or G&W or others can move down, if a good point or so are made for their relocation, of course-- she's just where feels right for what information I've got at the moment. Villager is an absolute nightmare to rank, I'll preface by saying, and at any given time I frankly haven't the slightest clue where to place them... Greninja and co can recover from a majority of angles whilst boasting mixups, recovery speed, and safety, but it's really hard to compare that to Villager's 'recover from Bowsercide to the top platform of Battlefield without jumping' extreme of up B, as I have no idea, in practice, how gimpable it is because I've never once seen a Villager offstage to begin with in a real game-- they always take direct blast-screening to KO anyway, in my limited experience of playing so few. Ike can certainly move down, in any case, as he does feel a bit distant from Charizard, at least, but super armor does still make for a pretty solid case for remaining above, say, Samus, who has similar vertical range (if better diagonal). Not that I've ever gimped Samus out of Screw Attack without sneaking in before/after the animation itself, so perhaps it's not that dissimilar to Aether in that regard... Hm... In any case, I actually quite agree with adding back E tier for LM's exclusive use, though he's sadly not so dissimilar from Doc to be feeling more than a single tier away from him at any time-- like some twisted reverse-restraining order.
Part of the problem is that so much of Villager's distance is superfluous in that he recovers from so far past the blast zones... which, of course, isn't a distance that's ever really needed, so I can't mark his distance that much more 'practical' than, say, Pikachu, who only struggles from blast-zone-sans-double-jump sort of situations and, even then, purely vertically. If I could figure Villager's safety out, though, I could come up with a more confident placement. I hear equal amounts of yay and nay for Villager, but I'm really at a loss as far as testing his safety...
Lucario has equal range, the ability to reuse up B if hit out of it (Villager can only do so if hit directly, not if the balloons are popped), Villager's range, a (weak) hitbox on up B, wallclinging, double team as a mixup, and quick speed in his up B. Greninja, meanwhile, has side B, wall cling, substitute, and atop that a slightly weaker variation of Pikachu's recovery (not quite so instant or distant, but the windboxes are pretty threatening nonetheless). Keep in mind that I'm not considering landing lag that much as, if you're not sweet-spotting, any character is apt to be super vulnerable in that department. Still, an inconsistent sweet-spot or so on are still factored (as with spike vulnerability), just not as heavily since it's often fairly character non-specific (everyone can be spiked, for example, if not as easily for some). Also, Lucario's up B's range equals Villager's, which is just absurd. That all said, if you feel like I'm still missing something, by all means, I'm not adverse to changes.
Villager can (and probably will, if history is any indicator) move up again to that top tier, but not until I can iron out something by way of example or some citation to make use of directly-- this back-and-forth between top and second-to-top (excluding Pika-tier) is just making my head spin. I need to get a lot more testing in. Anything others could provide in way of support would be immensely helpful-- I've never gotten to really see any extensive Villager recovery gameplay outside of intentional jump-of-stage style testing of my own or the like.
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Agreed. Villager is pretty high up there with said reasons, & I'm comfortable with Lucario's placement. Also @
One Tilt
, I think we should factor in a character's less-utilized options in flexibility of recovering back, such as Wall-Jumping & Wall-Clinging. Omegas with walls surely promote this, & I've realized after a while that Wall-jumping can literally save your stock.
EDIT:
One Tilt
, I think we should factor in a character's less-utilized options in flexibility of recovering back, such as Wall-Jumping & Wall-Clinging. Omegas with walls surely promote this, & I've realized after a while that Wall-jumping can literally save your stock.Indeed, Shield doesn't decrease Air Slash's height, but the air speed of drifting after Air Slash is still bad.. Aside from Shield's placement, I also agree with typing out "Hyper" & "Decisive" is the way to go.
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mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
There's a handful of positions on the current chart I disagree with:
He should definitely be lower. His air speed is the worst in the game, and often he ends up relying on his Super Dedede Jump, which is really easy to punish unless it grabs the ledge during the ascent. This makes his recovery very predictable - B rank if you're being generous, if not B-.
She should be a tier or two higher. Her vertical distance is pretty unspectacular (but at least it's not the outright worst in the game like it was in Brawl), but basically everything else is excellent. Toad can be used to stall in mid-air, her aerials provide good protection against attacks from almost any angle, her float provides her with excellent horizontal distance, and Parasol is difficult to interrupt. Also her second jump isn't abysmal anymore. At least B+ quality IMO.
A bit too low - she has Kirby's multiple jumps, whilst also have better air speed and better aerials for protecting herself with. A or A+ for sure.
Zair. Now that ledgehogging isn't a thing anymore, Zair helps her recovery enormously, so she should really be at least B rank.
Probably belongs on the same tier as Mario. He may get more distance, but his air speed is so slow, and his recovery moves so restricted, that the chances of dying off-stage are pretty similar.
He should definitely be lower. His air speed is the worst in the game, and often he ends up relying on his Super Dedede Jump, which is really easy to punish unless it grabs the ledge during the ascent. This makes his recovery very predictable - B rank if you're being generous, if not B-. She should be a tier or two higher. Her vertical distance is pretty unspectacular (but at least it's not the outright worst in the game like it was in Brawl), but basically everything else is excellent. Toad can be used to stall in mid-air, her aerials provide good protection against attacks from almost any angle, her float provides her with excellent horizontal distance, and Parasol is difficult to interrupt. Also her second jump isn't abysmal anymore. At least B+ quality IMO.A bit too low - she has Kirby's multiple jumps, whilst also have better air speed and better aerials for protecting herself with. A or A+ for sure. Zair. Now that ledgehogging isn't a thing anymore, Zair helps her recovery enormously, so she should really be at least B rank. Probably belongs on the same tier as Mario. He may get more distance, but his air speed is so slow, and his recovery moves so restricted, that the chances of dying off-stage are pretty similar.