It's looking better and better! Here are some more thoughts.
I would still move
down at least one more place. There's often times they're hit not too far away from the stage and they simply can't make it back.
And I still think
should be moved up more. They cover a lot of distance, especially
.
Others might move ahead of them, potentially, but Marth/Lucina have far better recovery than Robin, who's slower, travels less distance, and has no hitbox above. I don't think they'll be moving down further, though if there are others at their rank that look to be 'too low', by all means, raising them to 'effectively' lower Marth/Lucina, if you see a gap, could accomplish the same. Fox/Falco are where they are for gimpability rather than distance, given the 'stalling' their up Bs cause. Fox's vertical distance feels near to Marth/Lucina, who, while having less horizontal distance, have a bit more safety. Falco's a step below Fox because of the bit of distance difference, in any case. Still possible for Fox to rise (with Falco likely a fixed -1 from Fox), but only if Marth/Lucina prove equally unsafe, I suppose. Try out Marth's recovery, by the way-- it surprises me every time with that buffed range from melee (or maybe that's just my rust showing). I'll keep your thoughts in mind, but for the moment, I think letting them sit for a moment to change others around first might help a bit more.
That said, I'll still certainly set aside some time to re-compare their distances-- compare their without-a-second-jump distances and whatnot-- though I can't really test safety on my own very clearly.
I'd move Game & Watch up to A- tier, I have no idea what he's doing in the same group as the Links. His recovery goes very far and the jump itself has invincibility, making it hard to stop. I think most people would agree that his recovery is one of the hardest to gimp.
Villager probably shouldn't be as high up as he is, either. His recovery has good distance but it's not very safe. It is flexible, though, especially on stages that he can fly under because he can do that for (basically) free.
Really? I didn't know it had invincibility frames (it's hard to test these things solo, I'll admit, so I miss things). That most
definitely makes him much higher, then-- it just looked like a Sonic recovery in my first tests. A- or A sounds like his place, then
-- which do you think the better fit? Its vertical range feels juuust a bit below Sonic's, as I recall, but I've not compared it to, say, Palutena directly-- though I feel like it was slightly better distance, so perhaps A-, then? Villager may indeed be a bit high at A+, but A-rank does feel to be the general range. Villager will probably see a lot of small shifts in his place, but I'm thinking solid A might work for the next update... I'm also pondering if Sheik should be A+, now-- in practice, I can't recall ever being successfully gimped as Sheik (who I used for a fair while), but bouncing fish gives so many more options over, say, Zelda that I'm pondering a +1. In fact, if ZSS's tether is as safe as it is distance-covering, I'd say she might bear placement at A+ as well, given her myriad options-- though I've still yet to see down B into wall do anything other than screw me up by creating awkward 'have to hit attack to get out of the animation' moments, myself-- if someone could explain what I'm missing there, I'd really appreciate it.
---
What does everyone think of the puffballs rising, by the by? That was more the result of my testing than everyone's input (mostly friendlies and FG matches with Jiggly/Metaknight and the like). Kirby feels to be about in the right place, but he doesn't feel too different from D3 (who has more options, but slower airspeed and those big 'ol hurtboxes), and neither really have the kits of Jiggly/MK. MK's recovery feels... a hell of a lot better than I was expecting. I heard 'nerfed from brawl' so much that I sort've forgot that he's still pretty solid offstage-- no matter how much they nerf his range, disjointed hitboxes and lingering aerials still provide a lot of safety, and he still has some solid recovery mixups that have him feeling well above Kirby... though, A might be a better fit than A+, if his up B proves unsafe (it can only sweetspot at the end, looks like, but do the hitboxes and speed minimize the risk?). Jiggly's extreme recovery with rising pounds and ability to recover without ledges at all was something I'd not really considered prior, but its Fair is the real star here. As with MK, it might be more comfortably A, but while the puffs are certainly
hittable while they recover, I may have overreacted into calling that
gimpable-- that, and Jiggly/MK have great ledge-drop options (which Kirby and D3 don't feel to have as strong a kit for)... though 'onto the stage' versus 'onto the ledge' might be a whole new topic, if the semantics of 'what is recovering' comes into play...
I think a minimum of 3-5 characters per update for the time being will help keep things recent without being overly spammy, by the by. Definitely Game & Watch and possibly Villager are moving next-- I'll likely be keeping this thread up and refreshing frequently throughout the next few days to keep things rolling with the updates.
Edit: Also pondering moving Sonic up to B+, mostly because of his ability to act out of Up B and his options like homing attack and spindashes. While ROB can act during his recovery, I'm not sure if that's enough to call it 'safe'... also pondering Jiggly/MK and whether one (or both) might better fit A, if Kirby's not to move up. Also wondering a lot about the C a and lower B ranks in general, now. Also, is Ness as easily gimped as he seems? Between the stalling before PK Thunder hits and the possibility of someone just jumping into the projectile, it feels pretty easy to gimp... though, it may still bear bumping up a step due to the distance, to be nearer to those with similar properties like Falco.
