Recovery Rankings

[Deleted member]

Why isn't Pit any higher? It has great distance and can slide below to grab.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Why isn't Pit any higher? It has great distance and can slide below to grab.

It has no hitbox whatsoever, it's very easy to miss the sweetspot, and it has very few angles. It goes insanely far, yes. But it's fairly easy to hit him out of it and he has very few mixup options.

 

[Masonomace]

Ness is too high, lots of characters below him that have much better recoveries.

I can agree but then I don't completely agree. Ness's doublejump is surprisingly good. It's so good that it rivals Greninja's doublejump in height gained & he's SS tier, but Ness' doublejump has that floaty rise to it, so he could use a doublejump with an aerial upon that rise. And of course Ness' PK Thunder can be interrupted or could be flat out edge-guarded by the right character abusing his recovery pattern. Without challenging PK Thunder though, it's relatively alright plus again, his doublejump combined with his air speed fall speed & his self-protecting U-air from below is quite decent.

I feel like the rankings could get polished more, starting from the bottom up. That way, characters who are in the D E & F tiers get moved elsewhere to better help where Ness would go after the other characters are arranged.
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It doesn't matter too much right now, but to me Ganondorf should move up ahead of Dr. Mario. Sure, ya edge-guard one of them enough & they can't make it back, but even though Dr. Mario has Down B, Ganondorf still has a better doublejump & Up Special for recovering vertically. Ganondorf also having Flame Choke for a horizontal linear attack to snap to the ledge once Gnaondorf is lined up neatly with the ledge whereas Dr. Mario doesn't have that kind of option. Neither of them have good air speed, but Dr. Mario having slightly better air speed doesn't convince me much for him to be one spot above Ganondorf. If any Dr. Mario mains read this & have a different opinion to change my current opinion, feel free to enlighten me since I don't primary Dr. Mario.

Without regarding Mii Fighters for a moment, Duck Hunt seems like he's in a plausible spot, but thinking about it, the only thing that holds him that far back is his Up Special. Right now I think there being a bigger amount of characters spread in B C & D tier makes E & F tier appear worse than they are, but that's just me. But back to Duck Hunt:

• His doublejump isn't that good, but it's alright
• His Up Special is gradual & slow, but overall it has good vertical height with some horizontal control given the opponent messes up
• He protects his recovery pattern with a trick shot from either below mashed or slowly arching down from above
• He can briefly bring out a gunmen to protect himself from a oncoming projectile or for edge-guard breaking if the gunmen shoots quickly after the startup
• His airdodge was nerfed, making the invincibility window slightly shorter.

Captain Falcon's & Robin's placing seem off kinda. Maybe they don't belong in E tier, but perhaps they do. I almost want to vote Falcon going one spot above Robin atm for these reasons:

• Falcon has slightly better air speed than Robin
• Falcon has one of the highest fall & fast fall speeds, so he can choose to fall quicker recovering lower sooner than Robin
• Captain Falcon can walljump if he really wants to recover from low, & he also has a horizontal linear recovery move
• Falcon's doublejump reaches slightly higher than Robin's doublejump
• Falcon's Up Special is a moving command grab

As for Robin though, I also think Robin can be ahead of Falcon for these reasons:

• Robin can edge-guard break with his Arcfire & any charged Thunder Neutral B at mid-high or mid level
• The air speed difference isn't that large. Robin can still recover like Falcon
• Elwind recovers higher than Falcon Dive & travels relatively faster upon rising
• Levin sword aerials U-air & F-air from the front or B-air from behind can assist edge-guard breaking the opponent
• A carried book or broken levin sword in-hand also helps with edge-guard breaking. Thunder book hits hard folks

 

[TriTails]

Falcon's recovery is very momentum based. If he's on full speed his Falcon Dive will cover quite a distance. Get hit by a decent flinching attack and it becomes straight ***. I mean, his vertical recovery is fair, but horizontal recovery depends a lot on his speed, and Raptor Boost don't cover much distance (You'll even feel more stupid when the enemy shields at the ledge and punish you because end lag). Really. He can recover high and still going at his max airspeed even when helpless (Something most character lacks), but that's leaving yourself quite wide open. But lose your momentum and you're not going anywhere.

Also, Doc has better horizontal recovery than Ganon. If you can mash as fast as an AK-47 then his vertical recovery can potentially be better as he has a wall jump + Nado + SJP. Although, he can't cover himself very well (Get kicked by a Ganon's U-air and you're the one that's gonna be edgeguarded. Can't say the same for Doc), so I think Ganon can potentially be better.

 

[pokelogan89]

I can say, without a doubt, that Little Mac has the best recovery. I would compare it to the vertical distance of Villager, and the horizontal recovery of an Ike.

















P.S. If you couldn't tell, I am joking. Little Macs recovery is terrible.

 

[Masonomace]

This thread got pretty dead, but the latest patch with the inclusion of Cloud along with the air & fall speed buff to Lucario could bring some discussion to where his new ranking could be. This also includes the buff to Bowser that allows his Whirling Fortress to snap to the ledge even if he's facing away from the stage! But first. . .

-Have just be one emote icon on the rankings. I understand that with Monado Jump, he feels like a completely different recovering character than Vanilla Shulk, but the Speed & Shield arts also changed Shulk's recovery potential / patterns enough & yet they've been removed with decent reason. So remove the (Jump) in A tier & replace it with just .

- should be higher easily passing B tier & be at the very least leader of A tier or somewhere in S tier. The character's air speed is quite good & he has the mixup to either use Homing Attack, Spinshot towards the stage to recover high / mid-high, use Spin Charge or Spin Dash to recover in a low arch, possesses a wall jump for the optional wall stages, & his Up B Spring has intangibility around startup while also snapping the ledge reliably. So like I said & others have to, Sonic definitely has S tier potential.

-I'm still unsure about since I don't lab with them very much, but are those (XXXX) sets the ones that possess the better or at the very most "best" recovery sets? I feel like a recovery rankings thread made to gather data should use the maximum potential for one's recovery potential, but if those sets are the "best" recovery sets for each Mii Fighter, then apologies in advance. And also, Gunner doesn't have a (XXXX) set in the rankings? Oh, and Mii Swordfighter with the Power Thrust & Skyward Slash Dash specials makes his recover surpass D tier by far.

-A relatively recent discovery with shows that he recovers vertically higher with his doublejump if he doublejumps while airdodging. So while you could recover with a Uair to cover yourself from above, airdodge for Ness has a quicker FAF than Uair plus you're invincible for basically the entire doublejump so it's quite safe. Currently he's near the bottom of C tier for reasons I can guess being his air speed is mediocre, fall speed is fairly floaty, his hitboxes are decent barring Uair & Fair for neat protection, but this doublejump + airdodge option can kind of save him from falling lower on the rankings as previously brought up about Ness' placement suggested to be ranked lower.

-A tidbit change but I suggest be one spot above . After jump height testings for characters, I've learned that Mario & Dr. Mario have clear differences in their Up B's & their jumps, but Lucina & Marth being very identical in stats makes my suggestion sound dumb. However, I'm backing it up by saying that Marth's Dolphin Slash recovers SLIGHTLY higher than Lucina's Dolphin Slash, so meh take it as you will.

-I still don't agree with being D tier. His air speed being bad & fall speed being above average doesn't bode him well sure, but he has two mid-air jumps, a godlike horizontal recovering option called Flare Blitz, & a Super Armor Up B Fly to power through danger & snap to the ledge. The Flare Blitz can be a yolo take damage colliding against the wall's surface with only the cost of taking a tumble fall animation that can still setup into a Fly ledge-snap even if you lack one or both of your mid-air jumps.

Question: Should a rankings also take other variables into account, like say, the ability to scrooge underneath stages? 'Cus Final Destination is nothing easy, but a stage like Smashville that's smaller & more easy to scrooge under can surely dictate the rankings a bit more right?

 

[Commander Fresh]

I stand by the opinion that 's recovery needs to be reassessed in a way that either takes his recovery without a second jump into proper account, or for him to have a second spot on the ranking to cover such a situation. Luigi's cyclone with his second jump is a somewhat predictable, but difficult to gimp recovery that covers a lot of distance, but without his second jump (which is already so easy to get rid of regardless of character), you'd find yourself wishing you would have even 's recovery. Though it is hypothetically possible to gain height and recover with the cyclone sans a second jump, it is so difficult that one can not reasonably expect anyone to accomplish it. In fact, as far as I know, only two Luigi players are known to be able to do it.

An attempt to second jump onto the stage interrupted by somebody's tilt attack, even at 0% in some instances and you're unlikely to recover ('s dtilt and I crie evrytim). In fact, even 's side B could have made the recovery in some of those situations.

 

[Cheap Shot]

With Villager's nerfs, I think his recovery ranking should go down.

 

[Masonomace]

I stand by the opinion that 's recovery needs to be reassessed in a way that either takes his recovery without a second jump into proper account, or for him to have a second spot on the ranking to cover such a situation. Luigi's cyclone with his second jump is a somewhat predictable, but difficult to gimp recovery that covers a lot of distance, but without his second jump (which is already so easy to get rid of regardless of character), you'd find yourself wishing you would have even 's recovery. Though it is hypothetically possible to gain height and recover with the cyclone sans a second jump, it is so difficult that one can not reasonably expect anyone to accomplish it. In fact, as far as I know, only two Luigi players are known to be able to do it.

An attempt to second jump onto the stage interrupted by somebody's tilt attack, even at 0% in some instances and you're unlikely to recover ('s dtilt and I crie evrytim). In fact, even 's side B could have made the recovery in some of those situations.

I can feel for you, but it won't likely get suggested. I've been discussing here previously about Shulk having multiple spots on the rankings simply for his Monado arts since they do radically change his recovery traits. I'm just now suggesting to have a change on the rankings in favor of Shulk having just one spot rather than two. Luigi getting two spots just because he'd have a doublejump reserved or not seems very "meh" to me. I mean, I understand where you're coming from & why you're suggesting it, but you either go ham on mashing B button like I do for deactivating & cycling to Jump offstage in Shield, or you just pray for RNJesus Misfire. A Luigi player that attends the locals that I go to pulls off jumpless Cyclone when he needs to, & I secretly give him kudos for it, so yeah.

With Villager's nerfs, I think his recovery ranking should go down.

Perhaps. His UpB mechanic is now similar to ROB, but his is still quite good even if the Villager isn't consistent with their teching wall jumps. So where would you rank Villager now then? Bottom of SS? Somewhere in S tier?

 

[Commander Fresh]

I can feel for you, but it won't likely get suggested. I've been discussing here previously about Shulk having multiple spots on the rankings simply for his Monado arts since they do radically change his recovery traits. I'm just now suggesting to have a change on the rankings in favor of Shulk having just one spot rather than two. Luigi getting two spots just because he'd have a doublejump reserved or not seems very "meh" to me. I mean, I understand where you're coming from & why you're suggesting it, but you either go ham on mashing B button like I do for deactivating & cycling to Jump offstage in Shield, or you just pray for RNJesus Misfire. A Luigi player that attends the locals that I go to pulls off jumpless Cyclone when he needs to, & I secretly give him kudos for it, so yeah.

A difference here is accessibility and consistency; Shulk's recovery has both. Any half-decent Shulk player can be proficient at managing the monado arts, and a simple button press sends them the same distance each time until the art expires. On the flip side, Luigi's jumpless cyclone is extremely difficult for most Luigi mains (even some of the best Luigi players in a region). A very skilled player does not necessarily have a considerably easier time with the jumpless cyclone, it is difficult to do over and over again to benefit recovery consistently, and it is not accessible to a noticeable portion of proficient Luigi players.

I support the idea that Shulk should have a single spot on the tier list that averages his recovery potential among the arts. The nature of his design was to have the player familiarize themselves with his monado arts and utilize them efficiently and adapt to the situation (such as recovery). However, Luigi's cyclone in particular is near impossible for so many proficient players; furthermore, whereas most characters gimped off-stage can often recover anyway from up-b alone, the difference between Luigi's recovery distance and versatility is very significant with and without the second jump. In other words, Shulk's recovery from a moderate distance can be generalized as an up-b button command (and this gives him consistent distances each time), and Luigi's recovery is a jump > down-b sequence which may follow up with an up-b. Shulk's recovery is crippled in the same way almost all other characters are without a second jump, but Luigi is crippled much more when considering the true potential of his recovery.

Of course, this all assumes that the Luigi player is unable to perform a jumpless cyclone consistently or effectively, but to be fair, that certainly isn't a big assumption at all. There's someone at my locals who is able to do a jumpless cyclone about one every four times, and people give him all the kudos to him, regardless of their own mains. If this much kudos needs to be given to someone who can't even do it properly most of the time, I think this warrants at least further discussion in regards to his ranking here.

 

[Masonomace]

So alleviating the jumpless cyclone issue wouldn't work if you tried what's being done in this & this video? Still though it's tiring to do it consistently. It can be discussed later, but the rankings has a lot of characters in the "wrong" rankings & I'd rather focus on characters that are easier pinpointing their true placing instead of making more icon placements atm.
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-For starters, being in B tier behind the leader of B tier, something's way off about Mewtwo then. He has the highest recovering doublejump in the game that does get reduced in vertical height should you airdodge while doublejumping, but everything else in Mewtwo's kit in recovery all scale so well of making it back. His SideB recovers horizontal & vertical distance used also for survival DI on top of being an anti-projectile reflector. And his air speed is up there with Jigglypuff & Yoshi. This character possesses traits that belong to an S tier character to be honest. He has a warping UpB that snaps to the ledge as long as you're mindful of slanted sloped ledges to avoid bouncing away in shame too.

- with his maximum potential in mind being his Limit Break Climhazzard makes me think that his highest tier would be somewhere in the A tier or beyond. However, most of the time is without Limit Break, & his standard UpB rarely snaps except for when you snap with the startup. His air speed is decent yet his doublejump height & the height to his Climhazzard UpB are a bit worse than Shulk who is currently in D tier. However, he has a slight stall-fall effect with Blade Beam or Cross Slash but still, Blade Beam is preferred since it's projectile coverage & Cloud's Nair is still quick & nice to keep foes off you to reserve your doublejump. Noting that he also has a walljump can help but that alone shouldn't raise his rankings that much. I guess I'd place him around C tier for now, but his true rating with considering the full package I suppose I'd rate him a "A tier every once in a while".

 

[Commander Fresh]

So alleviating the jumpless cyclone issue wouldn't work if you tried what's being done in this & this video? Still though it's tiring to do it consistently. It can be discussed later, but the rankings has a lot of characters in the "wrong" rankings & I'd rather focus on characters that are easier pinpointing their true placing instead of making more icon placements atm.

The Luigi boards have discussed extensively about this, to the point that whole threads have been dedicated to this issue. Tricks like in the videos you've linked have been suggested many times, though mileage has dramatically varied, with most people still unable to recover with it at all.

As for , I think a good way to think about him is to judge him based on the recovery he has for the majority of the time. For the time being, I think it's fair to say that limit break up-b's don't happen quite as often as default ones do, and like a computer, the true performance of it is limited by its slowest part (or worst recovery, I guess).

I'd also like to add that I wouldn't consider with the same logic as Cloud, because Shulk's default recovery is neither his worst nor his best. We shouldn't base his recovery ranking in particular on the shield art rather than his artless state. Speaking of Shulk, I proposed that his ranking could be an average between all his arts and artless state, but if we do, further discussion is needed as to whether or not to include shield in that average. On one hand, it's easy to argue that shield should be included because all the other arts are also being considered (and perhaps, his poor recovery in shield wouldn't lower his ranking significantly). On the other hand, no Shulk main would ever reasonably recover while still in the shield art, unless they simply weren't hit far at all, were panicking, or some other reason that's out of the ordinary. Shield is an art that generally will never see any use in recovery outside of the occasional tap over the ledge (assuming a half-competent Shulk player).

 

[Zareidriel]

I'd like to make a very small case for promoting Robin back to D from E. What Elwind lacks in invulnerability, it has maneuverability in spades. Furthermore, 2 or 3 patches ago the horizontal air speed after the second blade of Elwind was TRIPLED. And furthermore furthermore, although we are rating these skills as recovery moves and not as attack moves, the hitboxes in Elwind are fast, numerous, and downward-facing which basically makes you unassailable from underneath. Not an extremely common scenario but you would be surprised how much it saves your ass. And lastly, the threat of an 8-frame spike makes the enemy seriously consider going down there, one wrong move and they're going straight to Hell. Since the spike is attached to the recovery itself, it's all a matter of positioning and timing for Robin; that pressure of death makes even the most seasoned players re-evaluate their edgeguarding strategy. But what I would like to focus on is the horizontal maneuverability and general positional mix-up-itude possible with Elwind. In my entire tournament career, I've never found an opponent who can completely bop/read the Elwind and stuff it. It's pretty rare that it happens, actually, and easiest to do with heavily disjointed characters like Marth and Lucina. Though its properties do make it particularly week to strong downward projectiles such as Fire Hydrant and Bowling Ball.

BUT while it's fast, it's not THAT fast, and still completely vulnerable. Certainly below C-Rank. But honestly it's definitely not as weak as Falcon or Duck Hunt, and that is something I can say FOR SURE. And as a recovery move (not because of its offensive properties) I can also say with 100% certainty that it is superior to Roy's recovery, Bower's recovery, and DK's recovery. So honestly I think it solidly fits all the criteria to be solid D-Rank, maybe on the middle or upper side.

(Also -1 or even -2 ranks for Olimar, seriously that thing is even more vulnerable than Elwind and not much faster, if any. And +1 for Mario cause duh)

Edit: I didn't know we were also taking Edguard-Breaking into account, which Arcthunder and Arcfire are amazing tools, as well as Robin's massive disjoints. I mean seriously, people do NOT like going down there. With those in mind I'd be tempted to look into comparing Robin's recovery with the C-Rankers. But I've already said enough for today, so we'll stop it here.

 

[randomtechguy142857]

IMO Ganon should be a place or two higher. Not much, his recovery is obviously awful, but his ledge grab range and ledge safety is insane. This adds a surprising amount of distance and of course intangibility to his recovery — it's effectively impossible to edgeguard a low-recovering ganon on stage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Dunno if this is a thread that's really intended to be updated, but should definitely get a boost up to top of D tier after the latest patch. Our biggest issue used to be how we couldn't ledge snap backwards during Fortress, so instead of ledge snap as early as frame 8 ish, it was more like 40 after we went offstage and came back. Now it's no longer a problem. As for why he doesn't belong where he is, Fortress is a move with lots of freedom in trajectory and varying heights with its mashing mechanism. The move also provides decent protection from attacks with a hitbox on every frame from start to finish. There's also a bit of disjoint directly above him, not so much to the sides of him. Furthermore, I would put his aerial Bowser Bomb (down B) in a recovery discussion. Because if we're ever recovering from high, we can aggressively fall to the ledge with a massive 20% hitbox that is very difficult to challenge. It's often safer for us to go the ledge than try landing back on the ground.

 

[Rizen]

I might as well post this here. My personal recovery rankings are (unordered in tiers):

SS
S

A
(Limit)
B
(Overall assuming good use of both Shield and Jump arts)
C

D
E
F(No Limit)
G
H

Based on if the character is launched offstage, as opposed to upward, their overall ability to recover. This includes distance, how well they can defend themselves, versatility/mixup potential and how dangerous it is to intercept them. Bowser and DK are on the same tier because Bowser has the longer recovery but DK has frame 3 intangibility and disjoint for example.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Hmm, I don't believe this topic is brought up enough.

Well since nobody is against posting recoveries tier lists, I'll give my 2 cents on it:

The list is primarily based on distance, safety, mix-up potential and overall consistence (That's why Cloud is so low). As well as considering aerials, specials, jump height, fall speed and recovering from getting hit.

Weight not included.

 

[Myollnir]

I don't agree with that list at all.

Edit : Wow I thought I was in the tier list thread, delete this.