Recovery Rankings

[SpottedCerberus]

I think you're overestimating Falco's recovery. (Also, Fox's but less so.) His up b doesn't cover the distance that Fox's does. It's easier to just follow him off-stage and hit him during the charge time, while still making it back. A character with a kamikaze dair spike (although I've only done it with ZSS and Sheik) can even hit the spacies out of their up-bs after they start moving, and still make it back to the stage because the damage incurred cancels their dair but the spike still takes effect. I'm almost certain that it also has less priority. Furthermore, it's very easy to knock Falco out of his side-b. I've KO'd him out of it with Mega Man's up-smash.

WFT's recovery isn't amazing, but it's better than the others in her tier. (DK has basically no vertical recovery. It's bad.) She can cover a lot of distance at a pretty surprising speed. Plus, she has more meteors than any character in the game with the possible exception of DK. (I think they have the same amount, or she just has 1 less.) I guess the meteors don't help her that much while she's actually in the process of recovering, but still. Her ledge game is pretty great too, if we're counting that.

I don't think you can really base his ranking on the jumpless cyclone. Maybe you're right and it should be ranked by what the character is capable of, even if it isn't easy, but I find the jumpless cyclone to be impossible. And I'm not the only one. Most Weegee's can't do it at all. I just physically cannot mash the buttons fast enough to gain any height without that second jump. Guys like Boss make Luigi's recovery look incredible, but it usually isn't at all. Also, he's a lot more gimpable than people think. For some reason, nobody tries to edge-guard him all that hard. It isn't that difficult to screw up his recovery.

Pac-Man can recover from basically anywhere. And he has super-armor on his side-b. It's possible to take away his trampoline by jumping on it if he needs that final jump, but he never really should. The trampoline is a last resort, and it's actually more difficult than it looks to steal the final jump anyway. Also he has a wall-jump which he can do twice by wall-jumping then side-b then wall jumping again. Always a plus.

Her up-b covers some nice distance, but I've always found it to be pretty awkward. It doesn't move that fast and it has no hit-box.

I don't think her recovery is all that safe. Meta Knight, for instance, can just nair as she teleports to the ledge to stage spike her. There's also a window where you can knock her out of the start-up. It isn't bad, but it isn't s-tier either. The hitbox is crazy strong, but I've found it to be much more useful offensively (d-throw into Farore's wind into Farore's Wind re-appearance is one of the most satisfying kills in the game) than for recovery. The range is rather short.

He's practically un-gimpable and can recover from just about anywhere. I think he belongs in S+. Remember that his down-b teleport can ignore edge-guarding. Also, it's possible to stage spike with his side-b and still sweetspot the ledge.

The super-armor is always good, but I seem to recall the distance he can recover from sorely lacking. His mid-air jumps don't get him much height, and his up-b doesn't either.

Why is Link above Toon Link? The smaller hurtbox, lessened fall-speed, and increased air-speed do wonders, in my experience. He has less range, but I think his aerial game is better anyways. I don't know if their zairs are different.

Not as safe as it seems. I once, as Meta Knight, nair'd her out of her up-b's start-up. But she was still within recovery distance, so she up-b'd again to the ledge where I was waiting. And I hit her with another nair and stage-spiked her before she could snap to the ledge. Maybe that Palutena was just bad, but there's no getting around the fact that she's still vulnerable. It's possible to hit her, even if she teleports right to the ledge. It's worth noting that all teleports have this weakness. Once you get the timing down, it's not hard to exploit.

Maybe a bit high considering his low air speed and large hurtbox? I'm not certain about this though.

Her horizontal recovery has crazy distance and little vulnerability, and the danger of getting spiked by down-b is real, but is her vertical recovery S+ worthy? Her recovery is great over-all, but maybe a bit overrated here.

I think giving Shulk separate entries depending on which Monado art he's using is like giving Wario separate entries depending on whether or not he has his bike handy, or giving Lucario separate entries depending on his aura. It makes things more confusing. The monado arts are a part of his character. And jump just requires you to press b once, unless you're already using an art or you just used jump. Same thing for Kirby, I think.

Also, don't you think you put too many characters in the S tier? I mean, there are a lot of characters with crazy recoveries in this game, but you should try to scale it back a bit. We don't really need 3 S tiers; it devalues the rating.

 

[Commander Fresh]

I don't think you can really base his ranking on the jumpless cyclone. Maybe you're right and it should be ranked by what the character is capable of, even if it isn't easy, but I find the jumpless cyclone to be impossible. And I'm not the only one. Most Weegee's can't do it at all. I just physically cannot mash the buttons fast enough to gain any height without that second jump. Guys like Boss make Luigi's recovery look incredible, but it usually isn't at all. Also, he's a lot more gimpable than people think. For some reason, nobody tries to edge-guard him all that hard. It isn't that difficult to screw up his recovery.

I was just about to mention this, but looks like you've beat me to the punch. What I'd like to see is a rating for Luigi with the cyclone, and another one without (similar to how Shulk is treated). Let's face it, the moment your second jump is gone (and it is very easy to lose it, accidentally or otherwise), cyclone serves no purpose other than to hinder one's recovery, unless you've been practicing your b-mashing skills your whole life among the Shaolin monks deep in the mountains of Henan, China (I would wager this is the reason for Boss' cyclone skill). Compared to the height gained in Brawl, Luigi's dinky little up B in 4 leaves much to be desired in his vertical recovery, especially in a game where everyone else's recovery is so good (RIP Little Mac)

 

[Ffamran]

I think you're overestimating Falco's recovery. (Also, Fox's but less so.) His up b doesn't cover the distance that Fox's does. It's easier to just follow him off-stage and hit him during the charge time, while still making it back. A character with a kamikaze dair spike (although I've only done it with ZSS and Sheik) can even hit the spacies out of their up-bs after they start moving, and still make it back to the stage because the damage incurred cancels their dair but the spike still takes effect. I'm almost certain that it also has less priority. Furthermore, it's very easy to knock Falco out of his side-b. I've KO'd him out of it with Mega Man's up-smash.

Ditto on this. Even with customs, Falco's recovery pales in comparison to Fox. Distant Fire Bird covers half of Final Destination, Fast Fire Bird and default Fire Bird cover about a third. Default Fire Fox? About 4/5's of Final Destination. The saddest part is that their default Fire Fox and Fire Bird I think have the same startup which just makes it even stupider... If there was one thing that should have been "Wolfified", it should have been his Fire Bird instead of his Bair's animation. Falco Phantasm's hitbox is FUBAR'd to say the least. Yes, it's something that can punish you hard because it soft spikes, but the fact it doesn't hit on the later third or fourth of its distance or that it doesn't have a hitbox on Falco is what kills him.

Falco's main strengths in recovering is his ability to wall jump and his second jump's height. That's pretty much it. The main issue is safety which compared to Fox, is not safe. Even Little Mac's recovery is safer because of the I-frames on Jolt Haymaker and the I-frames, disjoint, priority, or whatever on his Rising Uppercut. The best jump in the game doesn't justify unsafe recovery options. Brawl Falco's recovery was much safer even though ledge-hogging existed because of the sole fact Falco Phantasm had a good hitbox. I'd say Smash 4 Falco's recovery is weaker than Brawl's, but not as weak as Melee where his fall speed was ludicrous - the fastest in Melee and much faster than Fox's. Fox also has a higher air speed, a much further traveling Fire Fox which means he can recover deep, and his safer Fox Illusion. What goes against Fox is his fall speed which could lead to SD's.

Falco could drop to where Ike is or even swap places with Wii Fit Trainer who can stall her momentum and bait with Deep Breathing, cover her recovery with Header - the angles she can cover is much better than what Falco can do by slipping in lasers or Reflector which can lead to a SD if he times it wrong -, and Super Hoops travel well vertically and horizontally.

Why is Link above Toon Link? The smaller hurtbox, lessened fall-speed, and increased air-speed do wonders, in my experience. He has less range, but I think his aerial game is better anyways. I don't know if their zairs are different.

Kiddo has a wall-jump too.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Kiddo has a wall-jump too.

I knew that, but I thought Link could too for some reason. Odd.... Anyway, it also looks like Toon Link's mid-air jump is higher. On the other hand, Link's zair looks to have more range, but I don't know how much that effects the tether or how noticeable it would be while trying to recover.

 

[Ffamran]

I knew that, but I thought Link could too for some reason. Odd.... Anyway, it also looks like Toon Link's mid-air jump is higher. On the other hand, Link's zair looks to have more range, but I don't know how much that effects the tether or how noticeable it would be while trying to recover.

Young Link and Toon Link can wall jump. I can understand Young Link if he's based on Majora's Mask (young) Link who was hella acrobatic - the somersaults and cartwheels were my favorite things about Majora's Mask -, but Toon Link? His stubby legs... Ditto on Villager being able to wall jump despite Animal Crossing never involving any major movement. Little Mac wall jumping makes sense since boxers train their footwork hard which would mean that Little Mac is capable of wicked footwork. Link having a wall jump wouldn't be farfetched if he was based on Skyward Sword Link which he isn't as he's based on Twilight Princess Link.

Anyway, Link having a faster fall speed, being a larger target, and having a lower jump does go against him compared to Toon Link who is a smaller target, has a wall jump, a higher jump better air speed helps too, and I think his Spin Attack does go higher than Link's. What Link does have is a sex kick which could help with countering edgeguarders, but Toon Link's Nair isn't that much slower compared to Link. With customs, Link has basically 64 Spin Attack - which the patch completely destroyed since default Spin Attack is either stronger or as strong - and a Spin Attack with no hitbox, but better travel distance while Toon Link has a better horizontal Spin Attack and another that might have a better vertical travel distance. I'm not really sure, but Toon Link probably has the better option for recovering. Let's also remember that Link can accidentally spike himself with Meteor Bombs if he gets into the habit of using Bombs to regain his Spin Attack whereas Toon Link never has to deal with that. With that, I think Toon Link has a better recovery, but by not that much.

 

[David Viran]

Her horizontal recovery has crazy distance and little vulnerability, and the danger of getting spiked by down-b is real, but is her vertical recovery S+ worthy? Her recovery is great over-all, but maybe a bit overrated here.

As long as you have your second jump you can recover from pretty much the bottom of the screen. Flip jump is actually really good for verticle recovery on stages like BF and FD because of the wall jump.

 

[Masonomace]

Pac-Man can recover from basically anywhere. And he has super-armor on his side-b. It's possible to take away his trampoline by jumping on it if he needs that final jump, but he never really should. The trampoline is a last resort, and it's actually more difficult than it looks to steal the final jump anyway. Also he has a wall-jump which he can do twice by wall-jumping then side-b then wall jumping again. Always a plus.

An important piece of knowledge to know about his SideB Power Pellet is that you can hit the pellet itself before Pac-Man's guided trail startup finishes thus Pac-Man is without a SideB until the endlag finishes. It's not too big of a setback for Pac-Man though. Other than that, he's still an effective recovering character with other reliable options.

I don't think you can really base his ranking on the jumpless cyclone. Maybe you're right and it should be ranked by what the character is capable of, even if it isn't easy, but I find the jumpless cyclone to be impossible. And I'm not the only one. Most Weegee's can't do it at all. I just physically cannot mash the buttons fast enough to gain any height without that second jump. Guys like Boss make Luigi's recovery look incredible, but it usually isn't at all. Also, he's a lot more gimpable than people think. For some reason, nobody tries to edge-guard him all that hard. It isn't that difficult to screw up his recovery.

Definitely agree with this. Jumpless Cyclone reminds me of cycling Monado Arts to get to the Smash Art in less than a quarter of a second. It's definitely not easy to say the least & Jumpless Cyclone is much harder than cycling to Smash asap. I have to have it set to 1/4 (Hold L) speed just to get a Jumpless Cyclone from mashing B so hard. So now I think that the Recovery Rankings should be realistic & not based on maximum potential.

Why is Link above Toon Link? The smaller hurtbox, lessened fall-speed, and increased air-speed do wonders, in my experience. He has less range, but I think his aerial game is better anyways. I don't know if their zairs are different.

The only plausible reasons I can think of Link being above Toon Link would exactly be his fall speed & a longer tether grab range that allows Link to mix up his recovery pattern whereas Toon Link falls slower leading to being harassed with early on. Most Link / Toon Link players will conserve their Doublejump, pull out a bomb, & wait to recover from low to be on the safe side. Although, I still think Toon Link should be higher than Link on the recovery rankings since Toon Link outshines Link in every other aspect.

I think giving Shulk separate entries depending on which Monado art he's using is like giving Wario separate entries depending on whether or not he has his bike handy, or giving Lucario separate entries depending on his aura. It makes things more confusing. The monado arts are a part of his character. And jump just requires you to press b once, unless you're already using an art or you just used jump. Same thing for Kirby, I think.

This is understandable, but the 3 mobility-changing Monado Arts Jump, Speed, & Shield vastly increase or decrease Shulk's recovery ranking. You're correct that they're apart of the character's kit, however, the change the Arts do to Shulk is too different of a change to only have one Shulk emote I feel, & they're only dependent on cooldowns depending on which Arts are rolled. Regular Arts can be active for 16 seconds & are 10 seconds of cooldown, Decisive Arts last 20 seconds & can't be canceled but are only 5 seconds of cooldown, & Hyper Arts can be active for 6 seconds & are 15 seconds of cooldown. Meanwhile other instances like Wario's Bike depends on possession of the item & Lucario's Aura level rising from the pace of the match. Though honestly Lucario & Wario could get different entries since they do heavily affect the recovery ranking for those characters, like Lucario's Base Aura is 75% & his Aura caps at 190% while Rage caps at 200%.
---

Spoiler: Reasons why the Arts can warrant their own place in the recovery ranking

The Jump Arts are the Arts that increase the ranking most. They increase Jump height which relates to increasing his Doublejump & both hits of Air Slash, the 1st hit of Advancing Air Slash, & both hits of Mighty Air Slash. They also generally increase air speed, falling speed, & fast falling speed which are huge factors to note for recovering because it allows Shulk to recover practically in any way whether high or low. The air speed increase affects delaying the 2nd hit of the Air Slash moves as well.

The Speed Arts decrease the jump height to his Doublejump but do not affect the height of the Air Slash moves. The general increase of Air Speed makes the jump height decrease irrelevant unless you're rolling with the Hyper Speed Art, & even then the air speed increase makes Shulk's drifting off-stage fantastic & fast plus delaying the 2nd hit of the Air Slash moves with a Speed Art to get better drifting distance in between the 1st & 2nd hit of Air Slash are even better than with the Jump Arts.

The Shield Arts make Shulk much worse at recovering, potentially ranking him as low as if not lower than Ganondorf & Dr. Mario. Air Speed & jump height reduced make the idea of Shield Shulk recovering a horrible idea unless you're rolling Advancing Air Slash. But still, Shield Arts don't reduce the height of the Air Slash moves.

 

[TriTails]

You can do Jumpless Cyclone by sliding the back of your fingernail back and forth on the B button.

Trust me. It works. This had saved my butt a few times.

And also, rankings/tier lists should be based on the character's top potential. Hell, I don't think it's even neccesary to point it out. Luigis that have been able to do the Jumpless Cyclone are rising in number, and while we are most likely not getting to see it used more soon in tourneys (Mostly, we'll be seeing them from Mr. CC and Boss), it WILL eventually be digged out.

I can do it. On A 3DS! Why can't you? I have fought this really good Luigi that can do Jumpless Cyclones ON FOR GLORY 3DS. It IS definitely realistic, and in no absolute means impossible.

Aaaanndd... I think there's this D-Pad tech that can be used. Just not sure if it's reliable or not.

 

[Commander Fresh]

You can do Jumpless Cyclone by sliding the back of your fingernail back and forth on the B button.

Trust me. It works. This had saved my butt a few times.

And also, rankings/tier lists should be based on the character's top potential. Hell, I don't think it's even neccesary to point it out. Luigis that have been able to do the Jumpless Cyclone are rising in number, and while we are most likely not getting to see it used more soon in tourneys (Mostly, we'll be seeing them from Mr. CC and Boss), it WILL eventually be digged out.

I can do it. On A 3DS! Why can't you? I have fought this really good Luigi that can do Jumpless Cyclones ON FOR GLORY 3DS. It IS definitely realistic, and in no absolute means impossible.

Aaaanndd... I think there's this D-Pad tech that can be used. Just not sure if it's reliable or not.

Issue is, the fingernail technique is a hit or miss for people. I've never been able to do it, and the jumpers cyclone thread on the Luigi board has indicated that I'm not alone on that front either. Also, the times I've tried, it did kind of wreck my finger and fingernail, as I do have shorter nails.

As for the dpad technique, that was strictly a PM thing. It never did work in Smash 4.







Back to the discussion about Luigi's cycloneless recovery, I do want to point out as well that even though Luigi can cover quite a bit of distance with his missile when recovering, the lack of a ledge sweetspot means that it will be useless if Luigi is already below the ledge without a useable cyclone. The up b will not reach high enough afterwards.

 

[Antonykun]

current recovery impressions
Strong but Exploitable
Survives more than what he should (i know blazer should be easy to deal with)
OMG

 

[TriTails]

current recovery impressions
OMG

Lucas' recovery isn't that great. If you can whack him back off-stage without his double jump and force him a PKT2, it's fairly easy to knock him away afterwards with much less risk than Ness' (As Sheik I survived at 65% getting body-smashed, barely entering the magnifying glass (It was a walled omega). As Ganondorf vs Ness' PKT2 I got KO'd at like 55% in the same way. Though, Lucas may have better airspeed than Ness).

 

[PUK]

But second jump plus tether is actually really good to avoid edge guard.

 

[TriTails]

But second jump plus tether is actually really good to avoid edge guard.

Huh. I forgot he has one.

 

[Antonykun]

Huh. I forgot he has one.

Not only that but he has way better control over his pkt easily allowing more angles of recovery at silly distances

 

[One Tilt]

I think you're overestimating Falco's recovery....

I've always seen Falco as a step or so below Fox, for having similar mechanics and safety with lesser range. He certainly is quite gimpable, sure, it's just a matter of my not having a clear answer as to how the theory translates into practical play, there. That said, I have a bit better a picture than I used to, and, while Fox isn't moving just yet this update, Falco's down a bit into similar range as Ike and co..

WFT's recovery isn't amazing, but it's better than the others in her tier...

In the last update, I still hadn't seen WFTs used much, as that was when customs were juuuust starting to see more widespread use where I play. Now that I see her side B covered recovery a lot more, among other things, it's feeling solidly within a more average range, at least. I can agree that it feels more well-rounded than DK.

I don't think you can really base his ranking on the jumpless cyclone..

Can't quite agree with you on this point-- while I myself don't find much success with jumpless cyclone, placing him lower on those grounds would be a matter of bias... that all said, it's a bit hard to tell in the rework, but he's remained tentatively in the same general area, for now. That said, I do agree that he's a bit more gimpable than many opponents seem to believe-- while his up B does have invincibility, his horizontal recovery has its vulnerabilities.

Pac-Man can recover from basically anywhere...

Honestly? I've yet to see a Pac Man fail to recover. At first, I blamed the fact that I'd seen so few compared to other characters, but... in all my time playing smash 4, I've just not seen one die without a blast zone hit, so it's certainly justifiable to move him on up until I hear of experiences to the contrary.

Her up-b covers some nice distance, but I've always found it to be pretty awkward...

I agree with the sentiment, but it's hard to tell how that really weighs into her placement... If I could hear from more Rosalina mains (or, in fact, play against them more often), I'd have a better sense of it, but I feel like it could just as easily be my unfamiliarity with the character skewing my perspective as it could be a legitimate bit of inconsistency...

I don't think her recovery is all that safe. Meta Knight, for instance, can just nair as she teleports to the ledge to stage spike her. There's also a window where you can knock her out of the start-up...

Teleports are proving to be less and less safe as the metagame evolves, and failing to consider the fact that I've seen Zeldas gimped prior to up B does speak volumes of her placment being a bit optimistic.

He's practically un-gimpable and can recover from just about anywhere. I think he belongs in S+...

As with Pac Man, I've never seen many MKs, but I've never seen them fail to recover, either. More than that, though, I can't actually -imagine- a MK failing to recover outside of very strange situations that... honestly all seem like they'd take a lot of user error. Top tier sounds about right.

The super-armor is always good, but I seem to recall the distance he can recover from sorely lacking...

Fair enough... Charizard feels perhaps a bit more average than prior placement may indicate...

Why is Link above Toon Link?

There actually wasn't any specific reason-- I just placed Tink second in an unconscious 'put the clone characters after the base forms' mindset and never saw enough of a difference to shift that much. If Tink's walljump and slight bit of better air mobility/smaller hitbox might trump the slightly longer tether, then sure, I'm hardly attached to the detail of who's ahead there-- the ordering within tiers is quite tentative to begin with, in the middle tiers especially.

Not as safe as it seems...

True, but she's already taken her hits for both safety and range... 'Near charizard' is my current status for Palutena, and so that's the general place she'll likely remain, for now.

Maybe a bit high considering his low air speed and large hurtbox?

More time with Mewtwo has shown that his recovery, while definitely ahead of the curve... is very similar to Kirby: very vulnerable if you screw up your jumping.

Her horizontal recovery has crazy distance and little vulnerability, and the danger of getting spiked by down-b is real, but is her vertical recovery S+ worthy?

I've always agreed with this sentiment in theory, but this past month with ZSS as my main has finally given me confidence enough to say that it's not simply my stupidity that's keeping me from 'perfect' recovery, as I'd have on Shiek or the like. ZSS is still definitely very, very good at recovery... but she feels quite like Lucario in that certain conditions can screw you over.

I think giving Shulk separate entries depending on which Monado art he's using is like giving Wario separate entries depending on whether or not he has his bike handy, or giving Lucario separate entries depending on his aura. It makes things more confusing...

Given how much more likely it is that Shulk would recover outside of Jump than it is that Wario would recover sans bike, I'm not so sure that the comparison is entirely equivalent... yet, Speed and Defense forms do seem to be a bit of a stretch in terms of providing useful information-- as does providing Kirby forms, of all things. Rather than use every status change of every character, I'd prefer to give a bit broader strokes... but Jump Shulk will remain distinct, if for no other reason than the fact that it seems like a relevant distinction at present.

Also, don't you think you put too many characters in the S tier? I mean, there are a lot of characters with crazy recoveries in this game, but you should try to scale it back a bit. We don't really need 3 S tiers; it devalues the rating.

Well I've no problem with the idea of clarity, so I've actually decided to try eschewing the muddled + and - tiers altogether this update. While there's still 'SS' past S tier, for the top four, I feel like this setup might be a bit simpler in the long run... though, the new giant C tier is sure to need some tweaking, now! B and C tiers are the biggest questions, now, but I'm curious to see what people think of the new setup.

...Also, I'm back. Been a while, but I'm often broke and rarely all that healthy, so I haven't had the chance to get into any testing until more recently. >//<

That all said, Updated to Version 5.0!

I don't have much to say on the new characters yet, though. Ryu I have -no- idea where to place, so consider his spot a placeholder for now, as just learning his mechanics comes first for me, and Lucas is just sort've near Ness, likely to rise given the tether and control... Roy is a bit low for his lackluster range, but if his safety proves a significant boon, he may rise.

 

[TriTails]

Lucas' recovery is soooooo much better than Ness'.

- Faster airspeed.
- PKT2 gaining MUCH more distance than Ness'.
- PKF having pushback.
- Tether.
- PKT bolt does not disappear after hitting people.

 

[FullMoon]

Uh. Greninja is not in the new update.

He's probably at SS tier I'd imagine. His recovery is so versatile and he already has great airspeed too.

With him on SS we'd have a nice top 5 too.

 

[Masonomace]

Uh. Greninja is not in the new update.

He's probably at SS tier I'd imagine. His recovery is so versatile and he already has great airspeed too.

With him on SS we'd have a nice top 5 too.

This on top of his naturally good fall speed / gravity allows Greninja to shift his recovery pattern from mid to low in a quick moment can leave opponents guessing where he recovers from. Greninja's awesome jump height together with his fall speed basically reminds me of Jump Shulk in a charming way.

(Also sorry for my mistake in that jump height thread. Greninja's Short Hop & Full Hop jump higher than Zero Suit Samus. What probably threw me off was Greninja's quick fall speed making him land much sooner than Zero Suit Samus)

Given how much more likely it is that Shulk would recover outside of Jump than it is that Wario would recover sans bike, I'm not so sure that the comparison is entirely equivalent... yet, Speed and Defense forms do seem to be a bit of a stretch in terms of providing useful information-- as does providing Kirby forms, of all things. Rather than use every status change of every character, I'd prefer to give a bit broader strokes... but Jump Shulk will remain distinct, if for no other reason than the fact that it seems like a relevant distinction at present.

Truthfully, Shield Shulk doesn't need a place on the list because 9 / 10 the player will never use Shield for actually recovering, but I'm a Shield fanatic so I find ways of recovering with it. It was because of the changes that the Shield art does to Shulk's overall recovery that made it have a terribly worthy place in the F tier. So with that said, I'm glad to see that it wasn't added.

The Speed art is actually a nifty art used for recovery when Jump is on cooldown because reasons said in this spoiler:

Spoiler: Speed art recovery stuff

Monado Speed decreases the jump height to Shulk's doublejump but does not reduce the vertical height of Air Slash's first & second hits at all. It is because the art increases air speed & not fall speed that delaying the second hit of Air Slash by letting the first hit reach the apex height or delaying longer makes recovering with Air Slash fantastic. Having the same vertical height along with greater horizontal drift speed in between Air Slash optimizes the move that much more.

So again, it is a bit of a setback that Speed reduces the vertical height to the doublejump, but the drift speed being improved to match / rival Yoshi's air speed & having a better horizontal traveling Air Slash I feel is enough of a reason for Speed Shulk to be on the Rankings.

Jump Kirby could just have an honorable mention since Kirby can only become god tier at recovering when he's fighting against Shulk & copies his ability, which is very situational & the MU isn't that common.

 

[TriTails]

The moment I saw Monado Jump Kirby, I thought Meta Knight's recovery was already ridiculous.

 

[Masonomace]

The moment I saw Monado Jump Kirby, I thought Meta Knight's recovery was already ridiculous.

I usually make a promise to myself for every time I face a Kirby as Shulk to never let them inhale me because I just cannot allow Monado Jump Kirby to exist. I don't have a problem with any other Monado art that Kirby chooses except for Jump. . .

 

[kendikong]

Ganon is definitely not in the same tier as Little Mac

I can fastfall nair offstage and easily make it back.

 

[One Tilt]

Lucas' recovery is soooooo much better than Ness'.

- Faster airspeed.
- PKT2 gaining MUCH more distance than Ness'.
- PKF having pushback.
- Tether.
- PKT bolt does not disappear after hitting people.

All fair points-- for now, Lucas is in C tier, then, and I'll be looking up videos to get a better sense of his distance differences with PKT2, among other things, then.

Uh. Greninja is not in the new update.

He's probably at SS tier I'd imagine. His recovery is so versatile and he already has great airspeed too.

With him on SS we'd have a nice top 5 too.

Ack... the damn thing eats character portraits every time I make a new update, and sometimes I don't catch them all-- but yeah, Greninja is definitely still bottom SS rank, just above ZSS's top of S rank placement. Only change is MK passed him. Fixed!

This on top of his naturally good fall speed / gravity allows Greninja to shift his recovery pattern from mid to low in a quick moment can leave opponents guessing where he recovers from. Greninja's awesome jump height together with his fall speed basically reminds me of Jump Shulk in a charming way.

(Also sorry for my mistake in that jump height thread. Greninja's Short Hop & Full Hop jump higher than Zero Suit Samus. What probably threw me off was Greninja's quick fall speed making him land much sooner than Zero Suit Samus)

Truthfully, Shield Shulk doesn't need a place on the list because 9 / 10 the player will never use Shield for actually recovering, but I'm a Shield fanatic so I find ways of recovering with it. It was because of the changes that the Shield art does to Shulk's overall recovery that made it have a terribly worthy place in the F tier. So with that said, I'm glad to see that it wasn't added.

The Speed art is actually a nifty art used for recovery when Jump is on cooldown because reasons said in this spoiler:

Spoiler: Speed art recovery stuff

Monado Speed decreases the jump height to Shulk's doublejump but does not reduce the vertical height of Air Slash's first & second hits at all. It is because the art increases air speed & not fall speed that delaying the second hit of Air Slash by letting the first hit reach the apex height or delaying longer makes recovering with Air Slash fantastic. Having the same vertical height along with greater horizontal drift speed in between Air Slash optimizes the move that much more.

So again, it is a bit of a setback that Speed reduces the vertical height to the doublejump, but the drift speed being improved to match / rival Yoshi's air speed & having a better horizontal traveling Air Slash I feel is enough of a reason for Speed Shulk to be on the Rankings.

Jump Kirby could just have an honorable mention since Kirby can only become god tier at recovering when he's fighting against Shulk & copies his ability, which is very situational & the MU isn't that common.

Mm, I understand your point, but, likewise, the point made earlier on Wario's bike or Lucario's aura do make Speed placement, as well as Defense's, feel superfluous. I'm not saying that Speed monado isn't a great tool for Shulk's recovery, just that it's not a common nor significant enough matter to warrant further spots on the listing, at this point-- was trying to condense the tiers a bit, so you'll notice that things like Mii Gunner customs are (again) removed for similar reasons of cleaning up. Whether or not Shulk has access to Jump is a very key facet to his recovery game (unlike Wario's quickly respawning bike and Lucario's omniprescent aura), as it makes a world of difference in terms of his options, but the details of Speed or Defense are a bit too specific for me to see them as necessary details to note. While any playing Shulk should definitely know about it, as should Kirby mains know about copy abilities to augment recovery, the average player's only going to much need know that Jump is such a huge step above Shulk's 'base' recovery.

Ganon is definitely not in the same tier as Little Mac

I can fastfall nair offstage and easily make it back.

The point of this was to consolidate tiers, but what the hell, LM gets an FF tier, sure. Not going to notate all the day 1 tweaks just yet, but it's changed.

That said, LM does have some decent safety on his recovery... not enough to make him anything but the game's worst by quite the notable margin, granted, but distance isn't the only factor. I'd have called it G tier, but that just seems stupid, and making it FF is not only akin to the SS rating, it's also a bit descriptive:

While Pikachu or MK's recoveries are downright super saiyan, to LM, recovering will be his final fantasy...

...But that's enough acronym absurdity (if not alliteration) for one day.

 

[Razputin13]

Wii Fit Trainer has a recovery that's easily better than characters such as and . I've been able to kill more people while recovering as Wii Fit Trainer than they've been able to kill me. Her side-B gives a vertical boost and spikes at the head, and the ball can intercept opponents for a stage spike, or it can bounce off the stage and hit them from behind. And her up-B can rise at about Pikmen-less Olimar's speed, though it doesn't reach quite the same distance, and hers puts out a weak hitbox. Plus, she has a wall jump. Wii Fit Trainer is comfortable spending the entire game offstage, where she can charge her Sun Salutation, apply ranged pressure, stall her descent with side-B, or with down-B to get more kill power, mix up her recovery with a wall jump... I'd put her easily in B. She's definitely above and , who have easily intercept-able recoveries. I'd put her somewhere above , who has only two linear recovery options.

There's no way should be with the likes of Captain Falcon and Roy though. His air-speed, his Side-B, his wall jump/cling, and his ability to instantly B-reverse his aerial momentum puts him far above them, and I'd argue his up-B is even harder to interrupt than theirs, since he can alter his trajectory during it. The lowest I'd be comfortable putting Diddy is D, but I like him better in C. All the D characters only have a double jump and a linear up-B, but Diddy simply has far more options.

seems too high. Olimar's recovery has a lot going for it, but certain elements of his good recovery are mutually exclusive with one another. For example, he can toss all of his pikmin and recover very fast and very far, but he can no longer throw out a disjointed aerial before he lands. Or, he can keep at least one pikmin and use an aerial to contest an opponent while recovering, but only if he's above the edge of the stage, or else he'll fall to his death. Or he can mix up his up-B trajectory to throw the opponent off, but that means staying in his vulnerable recovery off-stage for a longer time, opening himself to another attack. Plus, his up-B lacks the horizontal versatility of, say, Jigglypuff or Wario, and he's openly vulnerable to attack the entire time he's recovering, unlike Lucario or Pac-Man. I'd drop him down to A, maybe B.

Other placements I'd like to question, but I'm not too sure about, are Mewtwo, Ness, Lucas, R.O.B., and Dedede.

's would be excellent, with his wall-jump, shadow ball, ridiculous double jump, Side-B boost and a teleport, but his enormous hurtbox holds him back drastically, so he might be okay where he's at I suppose. Still, the sheer number of options he has makes me reconsider, especially given his pretty good defensive aerials and his invisible air dodge. I'd ask a dedicated Mewtwo main to chime in (assuming one exists).

has a ridiculous double jump, and even if he uses that, he can use his PK Thunder twice if he hits a wall. It can be intercepted, but attempting to intercept it has a good chance of getting you killed as well, so in high level play, most characters without versatile projectiles don't even try. I'd hesitate to raise him though, just because even if you die intercepting it, you're likely to shorten it enough to trade stocks.

simply has amazing recovery. It doesn't disappear when it hits a player, and doesn't shorten dramatically if you hit someone during PKT2. Additionally, his goes practically twice the distance of Ness's, and can also be used twice by hitting a wall. Those along with the insane double jump and tether make him loads more difficult to gimp... but his PKT can still be absorbed or reflected, and Ness and Lucas both simply die if you hit them with a windbox in the middle of a recovery. So it's a tough call.

feels like he should be higher, since he can recover as far as Pikmin-less Olimar, while also being able to stall and act out of his recovery. Though he is held back with the speed of his recovery, his blind spots in the air, and his big hurtbox. Still, I don't think he'd be out of place a tier higher.

on the other hand seems a bit high on the list. People seem to underestimate his atrocious horizontal aerial mobility, and he's incredibly vulnerable before using his up-B. Plus, his vertical recovery is fast, but incredibly predictable, and it's deceptively easy to spike him out of it. And although he does have the option of recovering high, characters with lasting, disjointed or high-priority aerial moves can simply beat out his descending up-B. I'd slide him down to B, but I might be underestimating his ability to challenge foes with his aerials while recovering.

Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great way to discuss how the various elements of recovering interact! I like how subtler things such as defensive aerials are also included, which separate characters like R.O.B. (huge blind spots and slow-to-start aerials) from the Pits (who can safely challenge almost anyone in the air).

 

[Masonomace]

has a ridiculous double jump, and even if he uses that, he can use his PK Thunder twice if he hits a wall. It can be intercepted, but attempting to intercept it has a good chance of getting you killed as well, so in high level play, most characters without versatile projectiles don't even try. I'd hesitate to raise him though, just because even if you die intercepting it, you're likely to shorten it enough to trade stocks.

Earlier today I was doing some jump height comparisons to some characters & Ness opened my eyes. I thought his doublejump was good but not THAT GOOD. It almost competes with Mewtwo & Yoshi's doublejump which says a lot. Idk about rating him higher either though. In competitive play at high-level, players will intentionally try to edge-guard Ness' Up-B recovery before it happens or if it does, they'll DI toward a surface to tech off it to shorten the move's distance.

 

[Razputin13]

Earlier today I was doing some jump height comparisons to some characters & Ness opened my eyes. I thought his doublejump was good but not THAT GOOD. It almost competes with Mewtwo & Yoshi's doublejump which says a lot. Idk about rating him higher either though. In competitive play at high-level, players will intentionally try to edge-guard Ness' Up-B recovery before it happens or if it does, they'll DI toward a surface to tech off it to shorten the move's distance.

Yeah, I'm not saying Ness's recovery is good, just that I wouldn't blink if he was a tier higher. The majority of D tier falls under 'incredibly predictable or singularly flawed' recovery, while C is more 'very predictable but tricky to deal with.' Ness's PKT2 options and double jump might be enough to move him to C, but I'm not totally sure on that front. Along that line of thinking, if I were to change the list, I'd put , and in C, move , , and probably and to B, which is more 'a bit predictable but very tricky to deal with' tier. Then I'd put , , and in A tier, which is 'has multiple options to choose from while recovering but can be killed/gimped with a hard read and some skill.' I didn't mention Peach before, but her double jump and float give her excellent aerial mobility (if she doesn't burn them carelessly), her parasol is tough to interrupt, and she has powerful aerials and specials to challenge attackers, leaving her with tons of options while recovering.

And for the sake of completion, I figure S tier is 'interrupting this recovery is a notable event and doesn't happen often' and SS tier is 'almost definitely going to recover.' E would be 'very predictable and easily exploited recovery' while F is 'liable to die even without interference.' I might move to F, since good macs can preserve double jump and use wall-jumps to extend or mix-up their recovery, but his recovery range is still so small it's hard to call.

Then again, I'm one of the few who wouldn't put in SS tier. Despite his unparalleled recovery distance, it's pretty easy to hit him while he's recovering with balloons since he can't fight back at all, and it's not uncommon to kill one with a stage spike. I've even popped his balloons for a kill a few times. But it's commonly accepted that Villager has the best recovery, and given his air-speed, air-stalling side-b and his wall jump, that might be true.

 

[blackghost]

Don't think theres any way ryu has a worse recovery than dk or bowser. he can land with focus attack hift his momentum back and forth with multiple FA. Take a singular hit and avoid an air attack for free and tatsu and shoryuken aren't moves that are easily challenged. True shoryuken goes surprisingly far and the move is invincible and hits through the stage.

 

[One Tilt]

Updated to 5.1!

MK past Villager as an adjustment, Jiggly's up a bit as I weight some experiences, Zelda juuuust clings to her spot without falling. Olimar's down a bit as I start seeing his recovery as akin to Pit's, trading jumps for up B mobility, while D3 is down a touch, tempting me to drop him further if not for his still prevailing over Kirby in simple 'how often I see one gimped' statistics. Sonic's down a touch for his limited horizontal options, Lucas is up a far bit for his... everything, really. Very Fox-like, in some ways. WFT is up a fair bit as well, for myriad stalling options on top of the fact that up B is controllable (unlike Link and co.)... Ryu is also way up, as he's got what's essentially a buff Luigi missle out of Tatsumaki Senpuyaku (spelling?), with a bit better speed in exchange for that tornado (so a bit worse, but still above average sorts).

ROB is up a bit, as I see him as rather like Ike's mirror image, in many ways, while Falco's down a touch, nearer to BowJer... Diddy's way up to the bottom of C, as 'cripplingly average' seems like the best descriptor I've heard for his recovery, which has lots of speed and horizontal options, marred by a dreadfully unsafe up B (even if it does have some nice distance and angling). Palutena and Charizard are down for feeling below average, sue me-- they feel like a struggle to work with in ways that 'average' recoveries generally just... don't. It may be undeserved, but we'll see if they stick-- but for now, they're near similarly 'safe but sometimes limited' sorts like Bowser and DK. Roy is up at the bottom of D, for being better than my first impression led me to believe (super armor frames, decent range when angling), but for still lacking the tools of Marth-- so Roy feels loosely comparable to Mario, I suppose. Robin, meanwhile... dammit, I want your recovery to be good, but on a good day you're still only edging out Falcon in range or safety, and he at least has enough speed to get away with it more often than not...

---

Anywhos, at the moment, my main thoughts are on the trio topping B (Kirby, Mewtwo, Peach), and whether they should be bumped into A, or, conversely, whether D3 might drop down... Zelda might drop, others in high tiers may need tweaking as well, but some of the middle areas are balancing out a bit more, at least. Also wondering if some from E might make sense to drop to F (DHD in particular), which could then justify sliding everyone down a bit-- perhaps those in D dropping lower (Marth and below? Bowser and under?), to give some Cs a chance to drop further and then a handful a Bs following that?

 

[Razputin13]

Rockin, I'm digging all the changes you made, and completely agree with all of them!

On , if recovery means just "getting back to the ledge," then she does that better than I'd say anyone else on the cast. Her teleport range is enormous, and nearly every time you knock her offstage, she can teleport to the ledge before you have a chance to try and edge guard. And even if you position yourself perfectly, you need to place a hitbox in the one-frame vulnerability, while she can wait several seconds to teleport (seriously, she can get back without a jump from the bottom blastzone on most stages).

Landing on the stage is another matter entirely. Since Din's can't pressure from offstage (Sakurai why T_T), all she has is her down-B, and teleporting onstage leaves her 81 frames before she can act again. Her only momentum stalls are Din's, which is useless for stalling due to freefall, and Nayru's Love, which has 60 frames before she can act again. Still though, you're basically never going to gimp Zelda for a kill, so in that sense her recovery definitely belongs in S, maybe SS. Despite the fact that she only has one linear recovery option, it's the best darn option in the game.

I agree with you on , her recovery is pretty bad. Most of her aerials are too laggy to use offstage for safety, and her counter sucks. Virtually every Palutena recovers like Ganondorf, only without the hitbox (OR the hurtbox, to be fair). Seriously, her teleport is like 1/3 the length of Zelda's? But Palutena's is incredibly useful for landing on stage again, since it's much speedier than Zelda's. I like her placement. 's as well, he always seems incredibly gimpable.

I'd move to A along with maaaybe . Peach's float is simply one of the best offstage tools in the game, and although it can be burned pretty easily, she feels more accurate alongside Wario and the Pits than Sonic and Fox, especially since she can safely hold onto her double jump. Mewtwo is basically Palutena's teleport, only with 3 other incredibly viable recovery options (Shadow Ball, insane Double Jump, Side-B) and safer aerials. I think his myriad of options might be enough to beat out his painfully large hurtbox, but tough to say. I like where he's at though, because as soon as he's offstage, he immediately has to try to get back, and his aerials make for a poor defense. Contrast that with Peach, who can stall forever, Jump Shulk who has amazing defensive aerials, and the Pits, who can burn jumps to stall or knock you away, before recovering from the blastzone with flight.

I could also see , and dropping to E simply for lacking the distance of the others in their tier.

 

[One Tilt]

Rockin, I'm digging all the changes you made, and completely agree with all of them!

On , if recovery means just "getting back to the ledge," then she does that better than I'd say anyone else on the cast. Her teleport range is enormous, and nearly every time you knock her offstage, she can teleport to the ledge before you have a chance to try and edge guard. And even if you position yourself perfectly, you need to place a hitbox in the one-frame vulnerability, while she can wait several seconds to teleport (seriously, she can get back without a jump from the bottom blastzone on most stages).

Landing on the stage is another matter entirely. Since Din's can't pressure from offstage (Sakurai why T_T), all she has is her down-B, and teleporting onstage leaves her 81 frames before she can act again. Her only momentum stalls are Din's, which is useless for stalling due to freefall, and Nayru's Love, which has 60 frames before she can act again. Still though, you're basically never going to gimp Zelda for a kill, so in that sense her recovery definitely belongs in S, maybe SS. Despite the fact that she only has one linear recovery option, it's the best darn option in the game.

I agree with you on , her recovery is pretty bad. Most of her aerials are too laggy to use offstage for safety, and her counter sucks. Virtually every Palutena recovers like Ganondorf, only without the hitbox (OR the hurtbox, to be fair). Seriously, her teleport is like 1/3 the length of Zelda's? But Palutena's is incredibly useful for landing on stage again, since it's much speedier than Zelda's. I like her placement. 's as well, he always seems incredibly gimpable.

I'd move to A along with maaaybe . Peach's float is simply one of the best offstage tools in the game, and although it can be burned pretty easily, she feels more accurate alongside Wario and the Pits than Sonic and Fox, especially since she can safely hold onto her double jump. Mewtwo is basically Palutena's teleport, only with 3 other incredibly viable recovery options (Shadow Ball, insane Double Jump, Side-B) and safer aerials. I think his myriad of options might be enough to beat out his painfully large hurtbox, but tough to say. I like where he's at though, because as soon as he's offstage, he immediately has to try to get back, and his aerials make for a poor defense. Contrast that with Peach, who can stall forever, Jump Shulk who has amazing defensive aerials, and the Pits, who can burn jumps to stall or knock you away, before recovering from the blastzone with flight.

I could also see , and dropping to E simply for lacking the distance of the others in their tier.

Hrm... yeah, Kirby does feel to have a lot more pressure on his recovery than the likes of Peach-- perhaps that's a good way to describe it, as that's the same reason Charizard/Palutena are down: the pressure put on their recovering. I'm not totally sure of whether Mario's a significant enough step down from Marth to warrant a tier gap, however-- even with lesser range and cape's nerfed recovery, total invulnerability during up B is certainly attractive... still, the speed of Dolphin Slash and its strong disjoint does tend to make that largely an irrelevant comparison...

I suppose determining whether recovery means 'to ledge' or 'to stage' would really give a clear answer to my question of Zelda, but, for now, I'll just say it's primarily a matter of recovering 'to ledge', since that's nearer to how I've considered thing so far (ease of returning to the stage proper has always been a factor, just not the specific matter being rated).

I think Mewtwo is nearer to Peach than to Kirby, in any case, though, as he is under far less pressure when recovering in a majority of situations... While both M2 and Kirby are extremely reliant on their midair jumps to recover, Kirby just lacks for options, mixups, and safer angles... Now I feel rather like Mewtwo and Peach might rise to low A, but yeah, Mario and below are the most likely to drop from D to E-- particularly with Robin's relocation... And, if so, DHD and possibly some of the Mii fighters in E might drop to F, as well...

Once I get a bit more clear a picture of B/C/D in terms of ordering, I can probably start adjusting cutoffs a bit more gracefully, in any case. Also pondering whether any within A tier belong higher... I'd mentioned wondering at whether D3 might be lower if not for Kirby as a 'do not pass' point, but it could just as well be that, say, Pit or Jump Shulk might be worth higher placement... But perhaps I'm trying too hard to make tiers that are more evenly distributed, when more of a bell curve might be more appropriate, as it's starting to approximate now...?

Well, we'll see-- as always, open to any and all thoughts anyone has on the subject!

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Lucas' recovery is soooooo much better than Ness'.

- Faster airspeed.
- PKT2 gaining MUCH more distance than Ness'.
- PKF having pushback.
- Tether.
- PKT bolt does not disappear after hitting people.

I seem to have an easier time aiming PKT2 as Ness. (I was trying to learn Lucas, and I kept accidentally SDing while trying to use PKT to recover. So I tried with Ness, and recovered successfully a lot more often in situations where I had to depend on PKT2. Is it just my imagination?

The tether recovery is pretty big though, and so is the bolt not disappearing when hitting someone.

 

[FullMoon]

There's also the fact that Lucas crashing into somebody doesn't cut the distance of PK Thunder II in half like it does with Ness.

 

[warriorman222]

Also, Lucas's PKT has a smaller curve, allowing you to recover a lot faster and aim it quicker. That's probably why it's weird to use.

 

[One Tilt]

I seem to have an easier time aiming PKT2 as Ness. (I was trying to learn Lucas, and I kept accidentally SDing while trying to use PKT to recover. So I tried with Ness, and recovered successfully a lot more often in situations where I had to depend on PKT2. Is it just my imagination?

The tether recovery is pretty big though, and so is the bolt not disappearing when hitting someone.

I feel like it might be a familiarity thing-- being used to a similar character will screw you up a lot more than being used to drastically different characters, which is my excuse for never being any good with Marth after melee. Roy's recovery kept giving me trouble whilst I tried using it like Marth's, for a while, so I imagine a character with a more technical recovery (Lucas/Ness) would amplify that issue... if indeed it isn't some reverse placebo or the like, of course. ^^"

 

[DJ3DS]

I have to ask: why is Villager's recovery SS, and ROB's only C? Both have fairly absurd distance; I know villagers is farther but ROB can still go from the bottom corner of a blast zone, reach the top of the screen and grab the ledge opposite the blast zone he was initially at. Both are fuel based recoveries; Villager's is quicker but can't be attacked out of.

Note that I'm not trying to argue ROB should be moved up to SS; Villager is definitely better here but I don't think the gap is that pronounced.

Of course if customs are involved, ROB should move up, easily. His High Speed Burner option is faster and if used correctly has more distance than I think even Villager. For some perspective; you know the game where you see if you can travel underneath Battlefield? Custom ROB can go underneath it, back over the top to where he started and underneath again before grabbing the ledge.

 

[Masonomace]

I have to ask: why is Villager's recovery SS, and ROB's only C? Both have fairly absurd distance; I know villagers is farther but ROB can still go from the bottom corner of a blast zone, reach the top of the screen and grab the ledge opposite the blast zone he was initially at. Both are fuel based recoveries; Villager's is quicker but can't be attacked out of.

Note that I'm not trying to argue ROB should be moved up to SS; Villager is definitely better here but I don't think the gap is that pronounced.

Of course if customs are involved, ROB should move up, easily. His High Speed Burner option is faster and if used correctly has more distance than I think even Villager. For some perspective; you know the game where you see if you can travel underneath Battlefield? Custom ROB can go underneath it, back over the top to where he started and underneath again before grabbing the ledge.

Theoretically it's a good question. R.O.B. is able to hold a Gyro while recovering the way he do so that you have some sort of edge-guard breaking strategy to defend yourself. Meanwhile you're preserving gas fuel by tapping B instead of holding B because after all holding the B button while recovering with Robo Burner will burn your gas fuel supply much quicker. This leads to the idea of pumping a bit of gas & inputting an aerial or throwing Gyro quickly to airdodge afterwards for defensive measure isn't too shabby if you play your cards right.

So anyway, I would say that R.O.B. could have a better tier grade than C, but I feel that R.O.B. having sup-par drifting speed during his recovery on top of his larger hurtbox exposes him to being edge-guarded more easily. Without discussing custom specials, R.O.B.'s recovery is at best around ~B tier I would think. When discussing customs though, I agree in that High Speed Burner would make R.O.B. spike up the rankings easily.

 

[One Tilt]

I have to ask: why is Villager's recovery SS, and ROB's only C? Both have fairly absurd distance; I know villagers is farther but ROB can still go from the bottom corner of a blast zone, reach the top of the screen and grab the ledge opposite the blast zone he was initially at. Both are fuel based recoveries; Villager's is quicker but can't be attacked out of.

Note that I'm not trying to argue ROB should be moved up to SS; Villager is definitely better here but I don't think the gap is that pronounced.

Of course if customs are involved, ROB should move up, easily. His High Speed Burner option is faster and if used correctly has more distance than I think even Villager. For some perspective; you know the game where you see if you can travel underneath Battlefield? Custom ROB can go underneath it, back over the top to where he started and underneath again before grabbing the ledge.

Theoretically it's a good question. R.O.B. is able to hold a Gyro while recovering the way he do so that you have some sort of edge-guard breaking strategy to defend yourself. Meanwhile you're preserving gas fuel by tapping B instead of holding B because after all holding the B button while recovering with Robo Burner will burn your gas fuel supply much quicker. This leads to the idea of pumping a bit of gas & inputting an aerial or throwing Gyro quickly to airdodge afterwards for defensive measure isn't too shabby if you play your cards right.

So anyway, I would say that R.O.B. could have a better tier grade than C, but I feel that R.O.B. having sup-par drifting speed during his recovery on top of his larger hurtbox exposes him to being edge-guarded more easily. Without discussing custom specials, R.O.B.'s recovery is at best around ~B tier I would think. When discussing customs though, I agree in that High Speed Burner would make R.O.B. spike up the rankings easily.

ROB has excellent distance-- there's certainly no arguing that. And yes, I would say his current placement is likely a case of 'lost in the shuffle', as, looking at the list, I'd say he's a touch above Fox (who is similarly far recovering, yet with safety issues). I can see him being as high as Dedede at most, in any case, so my main questions become of how much his other properties hold back his recovery... first off, his massive hurtbox and limited airspeed are major problems, as is the fuel system and the reliance on player inputs to have any hitboxes... He has other tools, like the gyro, laser, and Bair, and he's certainly pretty solid with customs, so I'm seeing 'Dedede sans super armor, or perhaps 'Kirby with more distance but a bigger hurtbox', so... if Peach and/or others move up from B to A, I can see ROB taking their spot over by Kirby.

I'm still a bit torn on how to handle customs, though... the system for the Miis works for them, given that they're essentially all-new characters, but so many cases are only mildly different from the base moves, makng it feel like nitpicking to create a clutter of new spots for the same characters rather than just averaging results or assuming customs allowed/disallowed... Will go with the old idea of creating separate with/without customs lists eventually, I suppose...

Could I get any more thoughts people have on those from G&W down to ROB, actually? Falco and below feels to be getting there in terms of the general order, it's just a matter of deciding where to place the 'cutoffs' for the tiers of C and below.

 

[DJ3DS]

ROB has excellent distance-- there's certainly no arguing that. And yes, I would say his current placement is likely a case of 'lost in the shuffle', as, looking at the list, I'd say he's a touch above Fox (who is similarly far recovering, yet with safety issues). I can see him being as high as Dedede at most, in any case, so my main questions become of how much his other properties hold back his recovery... first off, his massive hurtbox and limited airspeed are major problems, as is the fuel system and the reliance on player inputs to have any hitboxes... He has other tools, like the gyro, laser, and Bair, and he's certainly pretty solid with customs, so I'm seeing 'Dedede sans super armor, or perhaps 'Kirby with more distance but a bigger hurtbox', so... if Peach and/or others move up from B to A, I can see ROB taking their spot over by Kirby.

I'm still a bit torn on how to handle customs, though... the system for the Miis works for them, given that they're essentially all-new characters, but so many cases are only mildly different from the base moves, makng it feel like nitpicking to create a clutter of new spots for the same characters rather than just averaging results or assuming customs allowed/disallowed... Will go with the old idea of creating separate with/without customs lists eventually, I suppose...

Could I get any more thoughts people have on those from G&W down to ROB, actually? Falco and below feels to be getting there in terms of the general order, it's just a matter of deciding where to place the 'cutoffs' for the tiers of C and below.

Yeah, With/Without sounds like the best idea. Largely I think it won't change too much but certainly some (and ROB in particular) get a lot better with customs and a separate list to reflect that is a good plan.

 

[TheMarsh]

- Why is he so low? I feel like Wario should switch places with Jiggs seeing as Wario can get 2 jumps if he uses bike off stage and also has corkscrew.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm guessing it's because it's possible for Wario to be sent flying while his bike is lying on-stage, making his recovery become a lot more linear.

That's my guess at least, I wasn't the one who made this lol.

 

[TheMarsh]

I'm guessing it's because it's possible for Wario to be sent flying while his bike is lying on-stage, making his recovery become a lot more linear.

That's my guess at least, I wasn't the one who made this lol.

Yeah that makes sense, if he doesn't have bike he's pretty ****ed