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Realistically breaking sheilds with marth

skrach8

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
1,151
Location
Orlando, Florida
I have recently been playing alot more smash, and have found it extremely satisfying when i break a sheild, as anyone would, correct?

When i can manage to force someone to pull up their sheild with jabs, a FEW(FEWWWW) fairs, ftilt, etc. i throw out a quick neutral b and am able to break a sheild.

Now obviously its easier once you instill some fear, and get the sheild down to a reasonable size, but its relatively easy to break a sheild. I find that most characters, with the exceptions of fox and falco due to their speed, can fall victim to a break.

I use the move with caution against high level players, because most high level players power sheild and generally dont abuse their sheild.

So the question i pose to any and everyone is, do u base ur strats around wearing down the sheild because i believe this to be one of marths many flavors of bread and butter!

ya digg.

discussion, help, insight, whatever.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Yes I have recently been incorporating shield breaks into my game with a surprising amount of success.

Some somewhat reliable strategies for wearing down the shield are

1. Nair->d-tilt->jab-takes a good portion of the shield and doubles as a trap for spotdodges/shieldgrabs
2. Side B 1,2, and 3 (down)-very large chunk of shield and pretty safe when spaced. The problem is that the pressure is gone right after doing it, so they get more recovery time for their shield
3. Shield breaker :p-half a shield gone right away. Problem is it puts the opponent on guard and they avoid shielding. Still you can catch people with this every now and then.

Also, if you want to use more shieldbreaks in your game, it would be wise to take note of where players tend to shield. For instance

Breaking the worn down shield

1. Pretty much EVERYONE shields right after they tech (with the exception of Fox and Falco since they have shines/a good spotdodge). Especially if they tech on a platform above you (to shield the "uptilt" that's coming). If you've already worn down their shield a bit, this is a nice way to make them put it back up and get your shield break.

2. After a whiffed attack-it's common sense that when you whiff an attack you're in a bad position. The opponent is likely going to punish you for missing. Most players will hold shield hoping you mistime your punish/try to punish a move that's safe on whiff and wait to retaliate. They'll do this even with a worn down shield because they plan to go on offense right after. Make sure that you wait to do the shieldbreak until AFTER their lag is over and they put up their shield (if you do it before then they'll see the shieldbreaker and not put up the shield) It also helps to act like you were gonna come in with something else (empty shorthop->shieldbreaker as their shield comes up)

3. Known pressure setups-I'll use the corneria fin trick as an example. On corneria, it's well known that Marth can up B from the ground, grab the fin, and come down with an aerial, all too fast to be reasonably hit out of. Now, to avoid taking absurd amounts of damage, many players will simply shield the aerial and the up B, and then move to a safer position behind Marth (shielding again as the Marth comes down and moving out of range this time). On a worn down shield, this is one of the easiest shield break scenerios, as they're waiting for a specific attack with the intent of shielding it (the extra time where they're holding their shield is just more free shield damage)

Wearing it down (note that the breaking scenerios work here too, the reason I seperated them is because in these scenerios the opponent often has a full shield to start with)

1. wavelanding onto the stage-invincible waveland->shield is a staple getup option for a lot of characters. They're trying to punish your overzelous edgeguard attempt, so make it simple and just do a couple safe on block tactics (retreating nair or the tripple side B are good examples) for some free shield damage)

2. platform light shielding-this seems to be a new trend going around. After you die, the opponent retreats to a platform, goes to the edge, and light shields. The intent is to shield an aerial, slide of the platform, and be able to move away while you're in lag. Now...what if you just throw out a spaced shieldbreaker instead of an aerial? 2/3 of their shield just vanished!

3. rolls and spotdodges-now on the ground, they're more likely to spotdodge/shine cause they're expecting a grab. But if your in the air when they're coming out of it, they're gonna shield. Spacing a shieldbreaker as they come out of a spotdodge or roll gives you a lot of shield damage and is fairly safe, though you'd probably be better off going for that grab anyway <_<

If I think of more I'll let you guys know, but that's most of my shieldbreaker tricks :p
 

skrach8

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
1,151
Location
Orlando, Florida
good post, but after i saw the fin thing. i gagged.... other then that good stuff. we gotta play so i can break ur sheild.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
There is a new technique I've been trying to do, I'm going to test it a little more and see if its actually useful if so I'll post.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
good post, but after i saw the fin thing. i gagged.... other then that good stuff. we gotta play so i can break ur sheild.
lol, I only used that since everyone knows Marth can do that, and everyone knows that shielding and then moving behind him is the best way to deal with it.

And yes, we do need to play, but it's your sheild that will be broken :p

Also, I should state that breaking shields in teams is actually very, very easy. You don't get the same punishment you do in singles though (unless you have a Jiggs on your team, lol)
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,726
Location
Philadelphia PA
get behind there shield and they **** bricks. a good way of doing this (im still testing, i broke my friends shield though) is SH fair past them. they most likely would try to shield grab, and wave land past them. turn around and pressure there shields w/ dtilts immediatly. if they roll, you can easily punish. if not, they simply die.

of course, if they dont shield you can follow up with an fsmash after the waveland.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
Hitting their shield just once with Shieldbreaker should discourage them from shielding, which should allow you to hit more dash attacks as they try to get away. Nair or Dtilt might shield-stab their exposed areas.

The only problem is that the shield recovers quickly enough that if you don't apply good enough pressure after their shield is low, they can still get away long enough for the shield to recover or even start their own offensive so they don't have to shield.

That being said I still think the shieldbreaker is worth using when a throw isn't a better option, but that's rare... you can always waveland-throw enemies on platforms except when the platform is too high. It's definitely worth using against Puff to go for the shieldbreak insta-kill, and ICs so you can start hitting them and because you can't throw them easily, and against characters with bad shields (Bowser, DK, G&W).

Pressuring the shield has its uses, but depending on the matchup, a throw might be better.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
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A shield break is almost always better than a throw...it's just that breaking shields is hard <_<. I've definitely been getting it more often though (not against Fox and Falco, but I'm getting it like once a set against Falcons, Samuses, ect, ect). And this is against people who already know that I like to break shields :p
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
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Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,726
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Philadelphia PA
getting behind a shield is ****. u can punish *anything* they do, and intimidate them too. + break/wear down there shield. it also forces them to not atempt a shield grab.
 

ZoSo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
2,885
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Melee
It's funny when it happens, but good players generally don't let themselves get caught in their shield.

If you literally scare your opponent enough that they just panic and put up their shield, you should probably just grab them rather than going for a shield break that won't be guaranteed nine times out of ten.

Although, I do think it's a valuable skill to be able to recognize when your opponent's shield is low and susceptible to being broken, given that Marth has such an effective tool for doing so.
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,726
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pressure thier shield ho. better than sitting there. his b attack is only reliable against people that over use the shield. most of the time u gotta just pressure or grab.

u can still break a shield via pressure tho. or even force them to tilt their depleting shield if they are that intimidated.
if u dtilt, and they tilt the shield down to cover themselves, fsmash.
 

Tomato Kirby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
582
Hmm...I never actually thought that anyone would ever bother with this.

...Especially against a powerful smasher such as Mango.
 

skrach8

Smash Lord
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Apr 3, 2006
Messages
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Location
Orlando, Florida
if u look at zhus sig u can clearly see shiz holding up his shield for a few seconds before zhu decides to act. the shield would need to be a little less then that, but that is a perfect example of instilling fear in somone... marths sheild breaker can eat away a huge portion of the shield, ud be suprised.
 

AprilShaw

aka Logan
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Pittsburgh, PA
A lot of people will avoid shielding in general against Marth (as has been said) but against people with longer grab ranges, they'll often try to shield SH F-airs. I like to do SH F-air -> shield breaker which scares them into not shielding future F-airs even if it doesn't break the shield :D

Also if they're low on shield, side B will work pretty effectively for poking. Against people with crappy grab range you can finish with down B if you space the rest correctly. Unfortunately if they see it coming they can light shield the first few hits and get pushed too far away haha.

Also, just a question, does light shield actually take more damage? I don't have a copy of the game so I can't check on my own but I thought they took the same damage, it just looked like more because the light shield is larger.
 

skrach8

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
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Orlando, Florida
a non charged shield breaker will obliterate a light shield. u can almost kill the whole thing. that would be the best time to use the shield breaker.

iv broken more light shield then anything. they're overall weaker..... lights shield offer more spacing when hit with an attack. but the shield breaker doesnt act like a regular hitbox.
 

AprilShaw

aka Logan
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Messages
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a non charged shield breaker will obliterate a light shield. u can almost kill the whole thing. that would be the best time to use the shield breaker.

iv broken more light shield then anything. they're overall weaker..... lights shield offer more spacing when hit with an attack. but the shield breaker doesnt act like a regular hitbox.
Oh so it does actually take more damage?

I had heard otherwise before but never got around to testing :p thanks though haha :laugh:
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
You can run at them, shorthop, they shield because they think you'll misspace because of how fast you're going and then you cross up into a reverse Shield Breaker =P

Sometimes they just hit you with an OOS aerial though. Sucky.
 

AprilShaw

aka Logan
Joined
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Messages
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I was trying out some shield breakers today. I hit a lot but they didn't seem very helpful lmao...

Really only did helpful damage when he light shielded :/
 

AprilShaw

aka Logan
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Really? Is that tipped or something? Haha

I'll try it later, but it really didn't seem to be taking much. A noticeable amount yeah but no more than like an F-smash
 

TemPesT-

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
1,175
Location
Minnesota
I thought Shield Breaker was affected by tipper. I could also be wrong. someone should test it lol.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
It is posible to jump sheild breaker on someones sheild if an opponent dosent wait to grab you and assuming you do it correctly they will whiff a grab. It takes time to learn it but it can be helpful sometimes mostly a gimick though but yeah. You basically have to hit their sheild with Marth's back leg when he does it.
 
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