Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

[TTTTTsd]

I guess I just don't see them as an issue because they are USUALLY (In this case, anyways) on a character like Meta Knight where they are not only difficult but require a solid jab lock and catching bad DI + solid execution all around.

Meta Knight wasn't really a giant issue either tbqh but people didn't want him nerfed mostly cause he was hype and also a counter to Rosalina.

If Bayonetta had combos in the lieu of MK where they took the amount of work his did I guarantee you the salt would be so minimal this thread wouldn't exist and we'd all be playing poker with dogs.

The real problem lies in how little she commits, IMO, and nobody's going to change my mind at all about this.

 

[Quantumpen]

It's both. You're right that if she had powerful combos that were very unsafe or easily punishable, she wouldn't be overpowered. If she had her current safety but she couldn't potentially stomp you off of one WT or up b/d-tilt, she wouldn't be overpowered.

Meta Knight's combo was a little too strong IMHO, but he had a lot of other drawbacks, he needed a specific set-up, and if you out-spaced him then he couldn't 0 to death you. I don't think the character was overpowered, but I still object to those types of combos on principle for all the reasons I've outlined throughout the thread.

Bayo has better and easier combos, possible in a wide array of situations that kill. She can throw out safe moves, and can even punish your (normally low risk) options with death.

 

[pikazz]

TTTTTsd said one thing I can agree on. she is extremely safe with low risk and high reward on some of the moves.
some of the move are little way to unbalanced of low risk and high reward spectrum.

however, I think its right now a trend. I am watching a high level play stream right now and I have only seen one Bayo win while 2 bayos has lost against Diddy and Ness seperatly (one even swap to Rosalina) at top 32. even I can feel that high level players I am facing knows the Bayo MU.
just wait a month and the hate will lay easier as the MU will grow

 

[BlackCephie]

In terms of the hate relating to Bayonetta, I believe Luigi Player is correct:
When a character has a lot of concepts that are little risk and ridiculously large reward, it tends to make the game pretty stale to be honest. What I mean by stale is, it ultimately overrules some of the concepts that were created in order to avoid certain situations such as 0 to death. And in order to address the issue, the opponent is told that they have to "Adapt" which in a lot of situations that may be the case, but if "adapting" leads to a playstyle which is not very exciting to play, then the mentality of the game becomes, are you just playing to win, or are you playing to win and have fun at the same time?

This situation really becomes two-fold. The user who is playing as the "broken" character, realized that a concept is overpowered, and decides that it is the best option. Which you can't blame that user for doing because they are playing to win. However, this results (At least from a spectator position), realizing that this opponent is just throwing out that certain move, at a higher rate than any other move. And repetitiveness, especially in a video game (As a spectator), is not fun to watch. Example? In Melee, if you were watching an Ice Climber vs any person match, you would realize that the opponent using the Ice Climbers will throw out a significant amount of more throws, attempting to get the ill-fated "Wobbles". While watching that, it becomes quite boring to be honest, because it's repetitive, predictable, and there is a little skill regarding it, but not enough to invoke adrenaline.

It's like, watching the same movie over and over again. Eventually it loses it's appeal, because you know what's going to happen, it's no longer fun fresh or exciting, and there is hardly any risk, so without risk can there really be any adrenaline? (As the spectator once again).

Now again, you can't blame the competitor for using such tactics, because they are just doing what the game developers introduced to the game. But vice versa, the competitor who is using these said tactics, cannot blame the crowd or spectators for hating on them, for the reasons stated above. It provides no entertainment, it's dull, and it's just plain not exciting. Look at all the hate a person like Hungrybox receives. He is choosing the best option given to him. He is a competitor, and he has a specific goal in mind.

Now as for the competitor, who is not using the said "broken" character, they are usually seen as the "hero" if you will, because they are going against a concept that is viewed as overpowered and essentially overpowers the mechanics of the game. If it can overrule most DI, and lead to an instant death in a lot of cases, then it's probably not going to be very good for the community and is probably considered "Poison". Everyone likes the underdog story, it's what creates "Hype".

Now the problem with Bayonetta in particular? Not only does she have one concept which is very overpowered (The dive kicks to drill kick up and off the stage), but she also has another move which is considered overpowered, little risk and amazing reward, and that is witch time.

Characters like Cloud and Rosalina are hated because they can invoke a safe-playstyle and ultimately have a lot of good utilities (Speed, power, etc), but guess what? All those things do not require you doing the same movement, over, and over, and over. You have more creativity in the sense that, as those characters, you have to utilize those tools to get a hit in, rather than (Once I get this hit in, I am guaranteed a kill). Yes you can say "At a certain percentage, cross-slash is guaranteed a kill", but I can guarantee you at lower percentages, it will NOT guarantee a kill (Unless something really wonky happens).

So overall, I think this is why there is so much hate regarding Bayonetta. In short words, too much reward for way too little risk. And that is cancer to both spectators, and players alike if you ask me. It takes the "fun" out of the game, if you will. Is seeing someone lose to a 0-death string fun? Is losing to that, fun? Losing isn't fun for anyone I imagine, but something so guaranteed, it's like being spit on while losing.

But that's my take on it. Yes there are things you can do to try to win, and you can "Adapt", but people need to stop trying to delude themselves into thinking that certain things in this game are not broken. And just realize, this is why certain characters are being hated on and just accept it lol.

Except her reward comes with tons of risk, which is why I dont get all the hate. You can DI her combo strings, and missing in the air makes her extremely punishable on the ground. Witch time isnt even a factor because it relies on your opponent getting caught by it, and can obviously be baited. Playing as her since her release against really good players has made her weaknesses very obvious to me. I have to be that much more crafty when using her to win, which makes her a lot of fun, but she is by no means a reward with no risk character. I would say she is high risk high reward if anything.

 

[Quantumpen]

I agree this is an element of match up inexperience at play -- but I think there is too much empirical evidence and too many obvious breaches of well-accepted fighting game design principles to claim that match-up inexperience is all or most of the problem with the character.

We will all learn the match-up. That will help some -- but for the sake of the game, we should all be hoping for reasonable nerfs that allow her to remain competitive while toning down her ridiculous options.

I don't want the character gutted. Let her keep witch-time just make it a real counter than scales with risk. that's not op, you can still make plays with the move. Keep the cool combos, just don't make them kill until high percents and make the openers unsafe on whiff.

You've gotta be joking BlackCephie. You can't DI her combos against a good player. Don't take it from me, go watch zero's video. Claiming she's a high risk character is absolutely laughable. Can you give one actual concrete example? Just because something can be baited doesn't mean it isn't a factor... bayonetta can also bait and then use witch time. These kinds of arguments are not addressing the problem.

She's low risk insane reward, and she turns all her opponents options into high risk moves.

 

[BlackCephie]

First of all the only truly safe move she has on block is dive kick and fair. THATS IT. Nair, bair, dair, and even her great dtilt can ALL be punished on block, especially if powershielded. Sure, I can SPACE these move to make them MORE safe, but she still doesnt have Shiek-like safety on her moves. Literally everything else is so punishable that its hilarious how many people are saying she is so low risk. Whats even funmier is that her neutral game compleey revolves around defense. You literally have to **** up or get totally outwitted to be caught, which, lets be real, is how she is specifically desinged to work. Without the ability to combo you to death she literally has no other reliable way to kill. Bair stales out as its one of your most used moves and fthrow doesnt work until some stupidly high percent. Can we talk about how all of her smash attacks have zero priority? Or how her dash attack and grab range are aweful? Or what about how slow ALL of her grounded normals are? Now compare her to Sheik, who literally has everything.

The reason why watching good Bayo players is exciting is because if she does manage to take her opponent skyward, there is always that moment where you dont know if the combo will actually kill on not. Because DI is real. People need to learn that in order to catch you in a death ladder, she MUST get a second jump before her second upb. Plus, more often then not she MUST lead into it from an ABK. these are the two point at which you need to be SDing. Most of the people I play againt are able to avoid the second abk or upb everytime now, so at best I get 20 or 30 percent.

In a few months I highly doubt any skilled players will be getting caught in death ladders to actually lose a stock very often if at all.

 

[Quantumpen]

Your DI argument is factually incorrect. You cannot actually DI out of Bayonetta's combos! That only works if the Bayo player messes up and doesn't react to your DI! I've made the argument already throughout this thread so if you care to educate yourself go read my arguments. Otherwise go watch ZeRo explain why that argument is bunk here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gilsv3c4-7I

Sure some of her starters can be punished -- but so what? What do you get off of a successful punish? A grab? Compare that to what SHE gets off of a hit, or a WT... it's not even close.

I'm sorry but "You can sometimes DI and if the Bayo player is bad she can't kill you" is a terrible argument. The fact of the matter is she can follow (not read -- follow) your DI and kill you regardless of your input. Because the random Bayo players you play can't do it doesn't mean you've found an answer to the problem -- and her death combos are only part (though a significant part) of the problem.

 

[Amiracle]

I'd rather fight bayonetta than some other characters in this game. Bayonetta is easily spaced

 

[Turokman5896]

Ok I have had it up to here. I don't get care if I get infracted. Why? Because I can bet there are mods that share my thoughts and perhaps high level players.

You guys are some of the most pathetic scrubs I have ever encountered in a fighting game community. Saying it'll only work up to mid level is completely undermining human error. If this was the case, Abel, El Fuerte, and C. Viper would have been banned on the spot if the Strret Foghter community had as many holes in their theories as the Smash community.

Why would have they been banned under stupid Smash standards? It just takes one knockdown to get caught in their infamous vortexes. Guess wrong and you're back down. Rinse and repeat until KO. Sounds an awful like Bayonetta's combos, no? THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS THE SAME ****ING CONCEPT!

Bayonetta's combos aren't even combos except at early percentages. The reason is DI. Unless the knock back is small enough where DI is irrelevant then there are no true combos period.

Anyway, back to human error. You can't train to reduce human error. The fact it exists means you can't reduce it. The only thing you can do is make EDUCATED GUESSES. That's right, but you can still makes mistakes. That's what Bayonetta fights against in her combos. If the opponent is too dumb or just plain predictable then Gamorrah gets a snack.

So don't go harping about how this is only up to mid level. You have no idea how volatile mixups are.

This whole debacle is simply absurd. Players need to stop being so ban happy and stop parroting top players opinions (zero): particularly when said players were proponents of "adapt" philosophies until their mains were affected negatively. Your examples of Abel and C Viper are honestly perfect analogies and the irrational hatred of bayonetta, a character without an American national to her name, are frankly embarrassing to the community.

 

[Quantumpen]

They're not perfect analogies at all. Vortexes are not actually unblockable, if you watch high level SFIV play you'll see top players routinely break out of those vortexes -- and when they do they're left in a favorable position/have at least recent to neutral. They have that option as long as they block properly. It's difficult to block properly, but there exists a defensive option which results the defensive player being in an advantageous position. That's the defning difference.

No such option exists against Bayonetta's kill combos. Even worse, she can get from low risk options and she can mutate her opponents low risk options into potential death combos. Throw out a jab and get WT'd? you die unless your opponent drops his combo/can't react to your DI. There is no perfect sequence of defensive inputs that stops you from getting wrecked by those combos.

Saying adapt is no argument at all. Again, that goes both ways -- if she gets so much more from a punish/read than you do then she's broken. Having to work twice as hard to win because her risk reward is so borked is a real problem.

That's the fact of the matter. Her risk/reward is completely borked. She gets to kill you if she gets a good read, you get like a throw. That's NOT the case in SFIV. If you correctly block a vortex it's back to neutral/you get a punish. That's a true mix-up, her death combos are not for reasons I've elaborated on thousands of times.

 

[Ghidorah14]

After going through Twitter, Reddit, /ssbg/, this forum, Youtube, and other various places I've noticed a few patterns. 99% of the time the only people who say the character isn't broken are Bayonetta mains.

It's almost like they would know the character better than people who dont play her...

 

[Turokman5896]

They're not perfect analogies at all. Vortexes are not actually unblockable, if you watch high level SFIV play you'll see top players routinely break out of those vortexes -- and when they do they're left in a favorable position/have at least recent to neutral. They have that option as long as they block properly. It's difficult to block properly, but there exists a defensive option which results the defensive player being in an advantageous position. That's the defning difference.

No such option exists against Bayonetta's kill combos. Even worse, she can get from low risk options and she can mutate her opponents low risk options into potential death combos. Throw out a jab and get WT'd? you die unless your opponent drops his combo/can't react to your DI. There is no perfect sequence of defensive inputs that stops you from getting wrecked by those combos.

Saying adapt is no argument at all. Again, that goes both ways -- if she gets so much more from a punish/read than you do then she's broken. Having to work twice as hard to win because her risk reward is so borked is a real problem.

That's the fact of the matter. Her risk/reward is completely borked. She gets to kill you if she gets a good read, you get like a throw. That's NOT the case in SFIV. If you correctly block a vortex it's back to neutral/you get a punish. That's a true mix-up, her death combos are not for reasons I've elaborated on thousands of times.

Here's the thing: I'm not saying bayonetta combos are mixup a scenario, I'm saying that the polarization and focus on them is similar to the reaction people had to vortexes.

Moving on, Bayonetta doesn't have any decent mixup. Her throws are average at best, most moves have slow startup and witch timing a jab isnt always a guaranteed kill like you pretend it is. Also, correctly blocking a mixup in sf4 usually results in zero sum thanks to FADC. Additionally you constantly refute the actual video proof people have of DI'ing bayo combos and earlier rejected the idea that DI is a mix up. Which it is.

But let's pretend we're playing MVC3 and there is no DI. Bayonetta has slow starters, no throw combos, and slow ground movement combined with light weight. But let's ignore that too. Where are the results is bayonetta is so godlike, so unbearable? If 6 months from now, every major is bayo dittos from every top player, then we might have a problem. But as it is now, players are just salty, particularly zero.

Furthermore, you missed the point, probably not due to a lack of sf experience admittedly. Most vortexes are virtually unblockable, at least when first released (even now top players lose to vortexes). But instead of crying about able's ability to win off a knockdown, players got to work and adapted with a new playstyle. If bayonetta gets more reward off a jab read stop pressing buttons. If bayonetta is zero to deathing you with air abk's block for christ's sake. And if nothing you do works, play bayonetta and learn her inside and out. And if you (not you specifically) still cant take it; quit. There's nothing stopping you. But a truly dedicated player will say "**** that" and work at it.

The hypocritical stance zero has taken is now going to be spewed from the mouth of a horde of uninformed players, furthering the complaining, not the work. And that is why I am admittedly salty. All this arguing is simply polarizing the issue, making cooperation impossible. On that note, I'm sorry if this pissed anyone off, but frankly, the "drama" is frustrating and irrational to me. One should be out there training right now, not arguing about theoretical bans if it matters that much.

 

[Skyfox2000]

So, I've been on Twitter alot and I've noticed alot of the Top Players have been complaining about Bayonetta litterly 24/7 especially ZeRo. I am a huge fan of ZeRo he has got to be one of my favorite smashers. When I watched his video today about the Bayonetta Drama I lost a little respect for him. He starts out the video by saying that Bayonetta carries players which I disagree. I think Bayonetta is easy to play he's not wrong about that but Smash 4 in general is more of a party game. Sure it can be played Competitively. They design the characters for anyone to play. Then he says Bayonetta is toxic to the Smash Community and I'm thinking Pre - Patch Sheik and Diddy wasn't, They were both extremely good and we're killing at lower percents and I could argue that they were pretty easy to pick up because everyone and I do mean EVERYONE mained Sheik or Diddy pre patch. I remember when I was watching GENESIS 3 whenever I seen a Sheik player play I would litterly turn off the stream. Sheik was boring to watch and unfair to other characters. Then about Bayonetta's combos, Has ZeRo and alot of other top players really tried every DI method there is?I highly doubt it. I honestly don't think ZeRo would of made that video of Bayonetta today if Sheik didn't get nerfed so hard in the latest patch.

I know there's going to be a new patch update soon. Everyone is complaining and Sakurai and his team is going to notice it. I'm actually prepared for Bayonetta to get nerfed hard.

 

[Ax^2]

If its something that makes me salty, its when someone refuses to admit the truth. Bayonetta isn't broken, but she has some attributes that make her very VERY hard to deal with and at times its just plain unfair. I get this same s**t too because im a sonic main. People tell me "oh you just suck", "sonic sux" , blah blah, but that isnt true. Sonic has a lot of APPARENT weaknesses, Bayonetta DOESN'T. Im not saying her weaknesses have to be apparent for a player to beat her or to make her fair, you definately have to study her well to find gaps in her playstyle and exploit that (One example is that the only "safe" approach she has is her down b (that sweep kick thing) which you can shield grab... stuff like that). But one thing that you simply cannot deny is the fact that almost all of her moves have very little consequences, highly reward you, and on top of that she can successfully punish everything you do thanks to witch time and her ridiculous combo game (except shield because you are literally doing nothing that can be punished by an attack but still puts you in a disadvantageous position). She is op, i prefer fighting Cloud, Shiek or Corrin instead. Pre-patch.

Just look at this argument, this is all about Bayonetta and how unfair her mechanics are. You can tell something is wrong, there isnt any similar arguments about cloud now is there? Nope. He's fair, he's managable. The bottom line is that Bayonetta is just op, thats that. Its the truth. When you have a 0-death combo, a counter that slows time/ lowers damage and you recieve no knockback, multi-hit moves that are near impossible to DI out of thanks to the smash DI nerf in 1.1.4-something-or-other, 2 specials that cover a majority of the stage selected that can't be punished effectively yeah.... looks pretty op to me.


Does that mean she's unbeatable? No. She is. People just have to take the time to find out how. The reason of this argument is people just not admitting that Bayonetta is an unfair character. Oh yeah, btw, believe it or not ZeRo is right on most of his points. Those being Bayonetta's effect on the community, how you CANT compare her to Shiek, DI, and her low risk high reward. You had to bust ass to be a good Shiek main, im trying to main her now but its hard. Yes she has a great recovery, terrific neutral, and is almost always in an advantageous position. She however, has low kill power and on top of that, you can avoid her camping and her approaches if you know what you are doing.

 

[Amiracle]

^ I have to disagree that from a spectator PoV I loved watching a good shiek such as zero. Seeing combos come out flawlessly and watching him control the stage was pretty cool. Sheik will be even more fun to watch now that she won't kill with Dthrow up air all the time. I also enjoy watching Nairo's ZSS or Dabuz's rosalina, both play their characters wonderfully.

As far as bayonetta goes I get why people are upset. I'd offer then tips or advice but the most common mistake I see are players rushing into bayonetta when they're at 0-20 percent , getting witch timed or DABK'd and then complaining that they die. Once you get higher in percent these combos don't work anymore. Also thanks to the witch time nerf, if bayonetta misses a witch time the move becomes completely useless until it's back off DR. I've witch timed someone and had them hit me while I was still in the witch time lag.

Also witch timing a ledge guard has become completely obsolete , by the time bayonetta gets back on stage and does her Dsmash witch time has ended.

My advice to players is to learn which combos work on your character at what percent and then knowing when it's safe to approach her and what way to DI. Some characters in this game also completely wreck bayonetta.

Also those wanting to nerf bayonetta what exactly would you change without completely destroying the character?

 

[Ax^2]

^ I have to disagree that from a spectator PoV I loved watching a good shiek such as zero. Seeing combos come out flawlessly and watching him control the stage was pretty cool. Sheik will be even more fun to watch now that she won't kill with Dthrow up air all the time. I also enjoy watching Nairo's ZSS or Dabuz's rosalina, both play their characters wonderfully.

As far as bayonetta goes I get why people are upset. I'd offer then tips or advice but the most common mistake I see are players rushing into bayonetta when they're at 0-20 percent , getting witch timed or DABK'd and then complaining that they die. Once you get higher in percent these combos don't work anymore. Also thanks to the witch time nerf, if bayonetta misses a witch time the move becomes completely useless until it's back off DR. I've witch timed someone and had them hit me while I was still in the witch time lag.

Also witch timing a ledge guard has become completely obsolete , by the time bayonetta gets back on stage and does her Dsmash witch time has ended.

My advice to players is to learn which combos work on your character at what percent and then knowing when it's safe to approach her and what way to DI. Some characters in this game also completely wreck bayonetta.

Also those wanting to nerf bayonetta what exactly would you change without completely destroying the character?

Thank you. A genuine post that accepts Bayonetta's nature.

I agree with all of this right here. Great advice.

 

[BlackCephie]

Your DI argument is factually incorrect. You cannot actually DI out of Bayonetta's combos! That only works if the Bayo player messes up and doesn't react to your DI! I've made the argument already throughout this thread so if you care to educate yourself go read my arguments. Otherwise go watch ZeRo explain why that argument is bunk here:9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gilsv3c4-7I

Sure some of her starters can be punished -- but so what? What do you get off of a successful punish? A grab? Compare that to what SHE gets off of a hit, or a WT... it's not even close.

I'm sorry but "You can sometimes DI and if the Bayo player is bad she can't kill you" is a terrible argument. The fact of the matter is she can follow (not read -- follow) your DI and kill you regardless of your input. Because the random Bayo players you play can't do it doesn't mean you've found an answer to the problem -- and her death combos are only part (though a significant part) of

ok so lets break this down. Bayonetta can follow and read your DI. yes, thank you ZeRo for pointing out a fundamental part of fighting games. Of course she can do that. The point is that you HAVE to have that option because if you dont then the character is virtually useless. She has so many other weaknesses that if you cant kill with her combos then she cant do ****. She just cant.

If she has to react to your DI then her combos are NOT true. You can air dodge if you see that read coming. She literally has to wait a split second to see where you end up if her next attack is going to connect. You have to make a series of small mistakes to catch a legit death ladder, and whats more, ZeRo keeps saying if this happens, then you die. Thats false. I have executed the same combos that you see killing people in high level play, and you STILL wont get the kill off of the final uair. This has to do with not only DI, but character choice.

Perhaps picking other characters to beat her works better than just saying "im doomed" when you get punished using your main. There are SO SO many holes in her general strategy its not even funny. Witch time? Stop throwing out hit boxes willy nilly and have some goddamned patience! Getting hit by moves that are not only punishable but also telegraphed? Put up your goddamned shield!

If you find yourself in a combo, dont JUST DI, use every measure you can to get out of it. Everything mentioned in that video points to player option select. I havnt seen ZeRo lose against a Bayo in a major event since her release. Why? Because hes a good ****ing player. He knows what to do against her. If Sheik is optimized by great dexterity and use of her kit, but dominates constantly, then what is the real difference? You have to KNOW that Bayo CAN kill you with a single combo, but you also have to know that by playing safe you signicantly limit that option. Literally everything he points out speaks to how well you know what she can do and what her limits are.

Lets also not forget that you can DI differently according to what you predict she will throw at you. If you think she will read the same DI, you can break that combo by using a different direction. She cant read every DI option at once. IVE TRIED IT. IT DOESNT WORK. Shes not THAT EASY to pick up. If you try using her traditionally, you will lose. The fact of the matter is that her complexity works both ways. You have to know how to fight her just as much ss you have to know how to use her.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

If you guys wanna beat Bayonetta, just pick Mr. Game and Watch... I mean maybe I just suck, but there is seriously no character that's given me more trouble than G&W when I'm playing Bayonetta.

 

[rules94]

It's pretty funny how the people are overreacting about bayonetta, specially after zero's video, this was before that but still..,whatever, say all you want, like roy and mewtwo few days after release, back in melee was different, bayonetta is nothing compare fox in melee or metaknight in Brawl, Banning Bayonetta? Ja! wow you are so weak .

Sorry to say this but... Git Gud, learn the matchup, play like no one, be patience and find the player weakness...

 

[BlackCephie]

You cant take ZeRo's word as law just because he is a top level player. In a very early video he sat there and said Bayo isn't that good in his opinion and that he wouldn't use her because she doesnt fit his play style. That man uses Sheik. He uses Sheik well, no doubt, but to say that Bayonetta carries players is to relinquish the responsibility of learning that matchup, which is ridiculous coming from him considering he hasn't lost to a Bayo in a major, nor has anyone ever won a major with the character. People complaining about Bayo need to get over themselves and learn how to play against a different kind of character, which I think is the real over-arching issue. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAjI_HuSCUg and tell me something about how OP Bayo is. Look at how Viceroy kills her options in the neutral, and how her weight and DI **** with Bayo's combos. Pls.

 

[ddonaldo]

Easy fixes from someone who plays Bayo and not just following mainstream on complaints
1. Off the top kills are hype, we love watching and appreciate ZSS vertical kills and MK (revert uair pls sakurai) but Bayo gets it too easy. Fix her aerial QCB side B so that it doesnt bounce Bayo and her opponent so high. This is one of the main culprits for Bayo being able to achieve this so easily)

2. Witch Time is cool and everything but a fighting game should not discourage the use of light attacks. It is hype when a jab gets punished in street fighter since it takes SO much mindgames, prediction and reaction to be able to catch it. Witch Time makes it too easy, therefore witch time should only activate against moves with a certain amount of power ~20% or something. Otherwise it should just be a normal roll/airdodge.

3. Nair should have more landing lag, not sure how much but you can literally throw it out without thinking.

4. Literally lower all her % by 1 or 2. She has autocombos, she won't miss them and will help keep the game healthy

This way Bayo is now a character that can rack up damage rather quickly, opponents don't have to worry about throwing out safe attacks against her but will be punished HARD for doing the opposite. Can still kill off the top with setup with aid of platforms etc. while still feeling like Bayonetta

 

[Dusk Pit]

So I have seen many people say to just DI out of witch twist but not once how on earth to properly DI it. I have tried everything I could think of but just can't get out of it so I'm assuming it's not possible to DI it if nobody shows evidence/explains how it works. Even ZeRo said it can't be DI'd but I guess some of you know better, right?

 

[abx]

Mekos gives a simple explanation for it.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Mekos gives a simple explanation for it.

Thanks, though I doubt it works. If DI'ing out of it was that simple, we wouldn't see her death ladders but regardles it happens all the time. Also i'm pretty sure I have tried that DI and still got killed off the top. Good luck DI it against a competent player. DI'ing the first hit requires super human reflex or good luck so that's not relevant here.

 

[Big-Cat]

Easy fixes from someone who plays Bayo and not just following mainstream on complaints
1. Off the top kills are hype, we love watching and appreciate ZSS vertical kills and MK (revert uair pls sakurai) but Bayo gets it too easy. Fix her aerial QCB side B so that it doesnt bounce Bayo and her opponent so high. This is one of the main culprits for Bayo being able to achieve this so easily)

2. Witch Time is cool and everything but a fighting game should not discourage the use of light attacks. It is hype when a jab gets punished in street fighter since it takes SO much mindgames, prediction and reaction to be able to catch it. Witch Time makes it too easy, therefore witch time should only activate against moves with a certain amount of power ~20% or something. Otherwise it should just be a normal roll/airdodge.

3. Nair should have more landing lag, not sure how much but you can literally throw it out without thinking.

4. Literally lower all her % by 1 or 2. She has autocombos, she won't miss them and will help keep the game healthy

This way Bayo is now a character that can rack up damage rather quickly, opponents don't have to worry about throwing out safe attacks against her but will be punished HARD for doing the opposite. Can still kill off the top with setup with aid of platforms etc. while still feeling like Bayonetta

1. This WOULD help a lot in punishing that move.
2. I think that's too much. I say change the scaling for how long witch time lasts. Like you said, jab shouldn't be so easily punishable, but Bayonetta should be rewarded for a good read at the same time. I do like the idea of baiting out Witch Time with jabs though.
3. I can agree with this. Combine this with Bullet Arts just flying everywhere, it does a lot of things.
4. I honestly don't know about this one. It could be balanced out by Bullet Arts though.

 

[BlackCephie]

Easy fixes from someone who plays Bayo and not just following mainstream on complaints
1. Off the top kills are hype, we love watching and appreciate ZSS vertical kills and MK (revert uair pls sakurai) but Bayo gets it too easy. Fix her aerial QCB side B so that it doesnt bounce Bayo and her opponent so high. This is one of the main culprits for Bayo being able to achieve this so easily)

2. Witch Time is cool and everything but a fighting game should not discourage the use of light attacks. It is hype when a jab gets punished in street fighter since it takes SO much mindgames, prediction and reaction to be able to catch it. Witch Time makes it too easy, therefore witch time should only activate against moves with a certain amount of power ~20% or something. Otherwise it should just be a normal roll/airdodge.

3. Nair should have more landing lag, not sure how much but you can literally throw it out without thinking.

4. Literally lower all her % by 1 or 2. She has autocombos, she won't miss them and will help keep the game healthy

This way Bayo is now a character that can rack up damage rather quickly, opponents don't have to worry about throwing out safe attacks against her but will be punished HARD for doing the opposite. Can still kill off the top with setup with aid of platforms etc. while still feeling like Bayonetta

I dont know how you would fix her death ladder without destroying the character, who is designed to be an air combo based character, but honestly think ZSS gets those off the top kills easier since it only really take one uair and one upb to seal the deal at mid percent, depending on the stage of course. Bayo has to string together at least 4 to 5 moves that your opponent CAN escape from at any moment, and at a high enough percent the combos dont even work reliably.

I agree with your Witch Time fix, although I agree more with what the above person said about WT scaling with the damage of the move activating it more.

I have no issue with lowering her percents, but in this case I feel bullet arts need to be slightly stronger. As it stands now multiple hits may not even net you a full percent of damage depending of the move.

I disagree with nerfing the nair landing lag. This move IS punishable. If you are close enough when she lands you can simply grab her before ahe throws out something else. You have to space it to make it safe, and lets be real, the bullet arts on this move barely do anything. Plus she already has a bad neutral game. Adding more lag to nair kills the little bit that she does have.

 

[leesinger]

WATCH: Abadango vs a top level bayonetta player in Japan. Count how many times she gets the "guaranteed" zero to death on him. Also this is mewtwo arguably not even a top 15 character against THE MOST BROKEN CHARACTER IN THE GAME ~sarcasm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aHE4mf300&feature=youtu.be

 

[Amiracle]

^that was a really good bayonetta too. I had to laugh when someone made the comment about Mr. Game and Watch destroying bayonetta. I fought one a little while ago and that frying pain pretty much destroys all her approach options

 

[pikazz]

I just want to say that increasing her Landing Lag on her aerials is will be unnecessary nerf over how one of her main weaknesses works.
using 4 specials in air quadripes the landing lag once you land, when that happens she has hard time landing if the opponent landed the ground first

 

[CreamyFatone]

Hey, I don't think anyone will pay attention to this, but I figure I should throw in my two cents anyway.

First off, let me just say that I haven't extensively researched this whole "you can DI out of it" argument, because it's pretty much as dumb as any other "don't do the thing that lead to this situation you're in" argument. You can say that it leads to a lame playstyle, or that it makes the game "not fun" for you, but realize that those things are subjective and that HungryBox exists. At the end of the day, this is a fighting game, and in a competitive environment you are forced to make the decisions that will lead you to a win, and you can always find joy in that unless you believe you can't.

Secondly, lets remember that 0-to-death is a term and not literally true. When I play Bayonetta I usually start looking for an opportunity to death combo when they're at about 20% or so. Once they reach about 35% I just play like normal, because at that point it's either impossible or not worth the (non-existent, I'll talk about it later) punish. I think of it like any kill confirm off of a hit or down throw like any other character, except she gets it in that brief window. I main Bowser, and when the 1.1.3 patch came in with his Up-throw people were complaining because the damage and hoohah kill was so guaranteed that it was braindead and anyone could do it. I consider the nerf to Bowser to be fair, because I can still do all of those things but it requires more finesse and I still get that kill confirm but for a very brief window. Bayonetta has a unique advantage in that she can kill at very low percents from a combo, however from my particular style of playing Bowser it's not a new concept for me to intentionally take damage to avoid those situations. Or in other words, intentionally take any other punish besides the death combo because it turns it off.

If the low%-to-death really bothers you that much, think of it as a gimp but with the ceiling blast-zone instead. Dying at low % isn't a new thing in Smash, it's just never been this guaranteed. For this reason it will probably get nerfed somewhat, but if it still exists in this game that's just fine because Smash is a game where you can lose a stock at any time.

The other probable reason why people get really butthurt about Bayonetta is that she seems completely unpunishable with her Witch Time and ability to basically fly in the air with non-clanking hitboxes with a maximum penalty of 40 frames landing lag, often more like 26 frames. I feel like Witch Time has been appropriately nerfed, but the landing lag incurred from all these moves is criminally small compared to the amount of damage and distance she can cover to make up for it, making it basically a non-issue for Bayonetta players. I get more lag from a Bowser dair, and that doesn't even do 35% and is relatively safe if I miss.

To all Bayonetta haters: How would you feel if, instead of THAT^, if the Bayonetta whiffed their last hit in their air combo, and you're right next to them as they are stuck in 1 second or more in landing lag? Are you willing to learn the DI if THAT's a possibility? Does that sound like balance? Because that sounds fair to me.

 

[Tobb99]

Really interesting discussion. I'm not sure about my opinion on Bayonetta since I don't know enough about her and I haven't played her much or played against her much. But one thing that struck me is that WT seems too safe and too big reward. Throwing a jab and you get punished with, what is it, up to 2-3 seconds slow down seems too much imo. I've also heard that the move has intangibility frames and also has Bat Within in the beginning and at the end, meaning that the window of punishing it is very tight compared to other counters.

Also I'm not sure whether her combos are percent based and DI based. But they are still very strong regardless of DI, but with proper percent and DI you might be able to at least survive. I took this information from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdViVh4qm0
You can see in the description for the data on the combos. I don't know if that video is outdated and that Bayonetta players have discovered even better combos.

Easy fixes from someone who plays Bayo and not just following mainstream on complaints
1. Off the top kills are hype, we love watching and appreciate ZSS vertical kills and MK (revert uair pls sakurai) but Bayo gets it too easy. Fix her aerial QCB side B so that it doesnt bounce Bayo and her opponent so high. This is one of the main culprits for Bayo being able to achieve this so easily)

2. Witch Time is cool and everything but a fighting game should not discourage the use of light attacks. It is hype when a jab gets punished in street fighter since it takes SO much mindgames, prediction and reaction to be able to catch it. Witch Time makes it too easy, therefore witch time should only activate against moves with a certain amount of power ~20% or something. Otherwise it should just be a normal roll/airdodge.

3. Nair should have more landing lag, not sure how much but you can literally throw it out without thinking.

4. Literally lower all her % by 1 or 2. She has autocombos, she won't miss them and will help keep the game healthy

This way Bayo is now a character that can rack up damage rather quickly, opponents don't have to worry about throwing out safe attacks against her but will be punished HARD for doing the opposite. Can still kill off the top with setup with aid of platforms etc. while still feeling like Bayonetta

1. I can agree that her combos seems too strong

2. Which Time needs a nerf. I think most people can agree on this.

3. What nair can you not "throw out without thinking". Every character has at least an airial or a move you pretty much just can "trow out".

4. Don't know what moves you are talking about.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Your DI argument is factually incorrect. You cannot actually DI out of Bayonetta's combos! That only works if the Bayo player messes up and doesn't react to your DI! I've made the argument already throughout this thread so if you care to educate yourself go read my arguments. Otherwise go watch ZeRo explain why that argument is bunk here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gilsv3c4-7I

Ah yes, the same video where ZeRo gives us such gems such as:

"Sheik is "A very difficult character to play, requires a lot of technical dexterity, a great deal of game knowledge, a ton of fundamentals, the patience of a man climbing Mount Everest, [always] made players play their best, was fun for everyone involved, and was not detrimental to the metagame.At all.""

...I honestly had to check I wasn't watching a "**** Sheik main say" video after that ego stroking trip.

That, by the end of the video, that Bayonetta *deep breath* hurts the game, hurts the community, has a terrible playstyle, isn't fun, will make people stop playing the game, has no good attributes, is toxic, the only character any of these claims have ever (really honestly guys!) have been true for in any Smash game, and the players who use her are effectively liars for not agreeing with him.

And, of course, that none of those things were ever true in any way about Sheik or pre-patched Diddy. Also, don't bring up he ever said about pre-patched Diddy, it's not important. (Don't question it!)

That says that Bayonetta carries players, with few exceptions, assuming, of course, they have past accolades from Brawl to "prove themselves". Unless, as he goes over later in the video, it's Komokiri who apparently doesn't get that same allowance; guess calling out a Japanese player is A-OK because they're less likely to notice. It's a shame a new player who picks a character they like, like ZeRo says he's done with every single main he's ever had, isn't given the same allowance ZeRo gives himself.

And, of course, when unsubstantiated attacks towards the character isn't enough, "Bayonetta players keep telling people to stop complaining. Why? Because they don't want their character nerfed. They also can't admit she's currently the best even though it's so obvious, those same people will complain about Sheik all day hoping for a nerf, but when they are on that spot they can change the topic real quick, huh?" ...in some bizarre conspiracy theory that Bayonetta players are trying to game the system to prevent the nerf, and I assume somehow also caused his perfect-in-every-way main to get nerfed.

You cannot possibly be quoting anything from that video and expect to be taken seriously.

 

[pikazz]

guys do you remember that time we all wanted to ban Little Mac in the first days of Smash?

just look where he is now

 

[Spirst]

Eh, different. Mac is a very polarizing character with a big obvious weakness. In comparison, Bayonetta is quite obviously good and is more rounded out while containing some overtuned tools like Witch Time and Witch Twist. I think a more apt comparison would be Snake from Brawl who remained second on the tier list for a vast majority of the games lifespan due to his overbearing strengths but then gradually fell from grace as other characters were found to be better and his few weaknesses became more heavily exploited.

 

[pikazz]

Eh, different. Mac is a very polarizing character with a big obvious weakness. In comparison, Bayonetta is quite obviously good and is more rounded out while containing some overtuned tools like Witch Time and Witch Twist. I think a more apt comparison would be Snake from Brawl who remained second on the tier list for a vast majority of the games lifespan due to his overbearing strengths but then gradually fell from grace as other characters were found to be better and his few weaknesses became more heavily exploited.

it was mainly as a joke and I said "the first days of smash4". I remember I have seen "Ban Little Mac" when the game was new over his huge strenght! but if we look at it now, it was super redicilous.

same with now, except its not that huge power and that huge weakness Bayonetta has. give it some time and Bayonetta will shrink in hype when her weaknesses are more visible like Snake and Little Mac was

 

[blackghost]

WATCH: Abadango vs a top level bayonetta player in Japan. Count how many times she gets the "guaranteed" zero to death on him. Also this is mewtwo arguably not even a top 15 character against THE MOST BROKEN CHARACTER IN THE GAME ~sarcasm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aHE4mf300&feature=youtu.be

becvause he actually learned to deal with the character instead of complaining.
1. he watches his hitboxes
he uses the projectile he has
he punishes heel slide (people still dont do that strangely enough)
he controls the pac e of the game. contrary to popular belief bayo isnt normally i control of a games pace.
throws out multihits to get through potential witch times
punishes batwithin. when possible.
DI her stray hits making a combo confirm hard. especially dABK.
he's playing the matchup coprrectly in a nutshell.

 

[Super FOG]

I'm from Brazil, and here Bayonetta is a pretty hated character here for a plenty of reasons, but I also count the ignorance over our scene, because even great Bayonetta plays, such as from the guy that defeated Mr. R in Pound, are fully despised here.

What I can assume from my personal experience playing and fighting Bayonetta is, she is not a braindead character! Most of those zero to death requires some perfect timing and DI reads to succeed. Even without the zero to death strings, Bayonetta is still a combo character with lots of varieties of sequences, and witch time is still a threat to be respected, most of my Bayo kills were made with Witch Time.

And one thing I've always been wondering, how easy Bayonetta is? I'm asking on personal level, because I hear a bunch of people mentioning that her zero to death combos were discovered on day 1, but I'm struggling hard to perform these at the same time I'm trying to make Bayonetta fit into my game style. Every time I see various players doing those lethal combos I wonder what am I doing wrong, because I don't agree about Bayonetta being easy at all!

Why do I play Bayonetta in a country with such a toxic vision over her? Because I'm a fan, simply. I own her games, I followed how fans were speculating Bayo in Smash even before the game's release, I was happy with her announcement, when she was appointed as the winner of the Ballot, I looked for the reasons instead of going full crybaby and complainning about not putting the character I voted (I voted for Wonder Red originally), I was just happy in seeing a very deserved Platinum Games representation in Smash, and Bayonetta is the protagonist of two fantastic games. But anyway, if mastering Bayonetta in smash means learn to zero to death properly, of course I will learn these, no matter how hated Bayonetta is, I believe some Rosalina players felt the same, I was a Rosalina hater myself because of how many matches I lost to her because of not knowing the MU.

If you like Bayonetta, play her, do the best with her, no regrets.
If you hate Bayonetta, beat her! Do the best with your character, counter her, convert all your toxicity in willpower.

 

[Ghidorah14]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp2-201603133819724

inb4DI

He started the combo off with witch time. Anything is possible with witch time, such as sideB+downsmash spike.

Also, diddy was spamming projectiles in bayo's face. He was asking for it.

 

[leesinger]

Lol how hasn't this thread been taken down yet? People say bayo is toxic to the game? **** like this is toxic to the game. Banning a character is lazy. Everyone who thinks she needs to be banned when she literally has ZERO results at a major need to pull their heads out of their asses. You don't ask for a ban on a brand new character when we literally have no idea what she is capable of. I'd be the first to propose a ban if she won every major and 50% of the players in every tourney were Bayonettas. But guess what, that hasn't happened yet. It probably won't either, because she is an outlier in smash and most people don't like how she plays. Contrary to popular belief she isn't actually easy to play either. Many inputs require frame perfect execution at high level play to get those combos that pink fresh and others get. Is she a good charachter? Of ****ing course shes good. Is she the best in the game? Maybe. But if we start banning the best character, when does it end. I personally found sheik toxic to play against, she could literally just camp you with needles in 1.14 and just wait till you could be 50/50'd. I disliked the character, but never asked for a ban. Know why? Because i'm not a ****ing child and I understand that the character has weaknesses and I would do my best to learn the matchup and exploit them instead of taking to social media sites and complaning.

Edit : I meant to post this in the other thread questioning whether she should be banned, my B.

 

[blackghost]

inb4DI

He started the combo off with witch time. Anything is possible with witch time, such as sideB+downsmash spike.

Also, diddy was spamming projectiles in bayo's face. He was asking for it.

I have no clue why Diddy wouldn't side b right there but mvd has a history of not adapting well to change and new things. He was a huge anti custom and anti Miis player as well. Exam clocked him in the face with heavy skull when he air dodged into the ground and he got super passed like it was exam fault