Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

[Ghidorah14]

Such a hilarious argument.

Just because it wasnt hoo-hah levels of nerfed doesnt mean it shouldnt matter.

Smash attacks kill at later %, dair has more recovery and easier to SD, less damage on witch twist, heel slide has more frames, and witch time was hit from literally all angles.

Do people just not realize how delicate this changes have to be to avoid destroying a character? Barely anyone actually has nerf suggestions that wouldnt ruin bayonetta.

 

[Bullys]

Barely anyone actually has nerf suggestions that wouldnt ruin bayonetta.

Honestly, the most outspoken/loudest nerf suggestions are often out of spite. I've seen and heard suggestions that would drop her to the bottom of the roster. Like I say, the main thing these come across as is just pure spite, and becomes very very hard to take that person seriously.

This is not to deny that there are good suggestions worth talking and engaging with.

One point I've mentioned in a couple of places is the subject of "fun". Fun is completely subjective. While I think most people, even Bayo mains and pro-bayo (anti-ban if we have to "draw a line in the sand") people would probably agree on that, its not the most exciting MU to play in the world. However, there is an absolute bunch of characters I dont have fun against, and I am sure many others are like that as well - our taste in what is fun and not may differ though,

So rather than people using the "fun" as an argument - its generally better to look at oppression. Being un-fun of a MU is not really a point, however, saying its an oppressive MU now perks more of a discussion. There are layers to this, and its a real discussion unto itself, what is oppressive in gaming (some communities will argue this differently, % of field, % of top 8, % of winners etc..)

The biggest thing in all this is to try and look past those that are shouting the loudest, and find and engage with those that are putting out sound points and counter points.

 

[Managomous]

Honestly, the most outspoken/loudest nerf suggestions are really out of spite. I've seen and heard suggestions that would drop her to the bottom of the roster. Like I say, the main thing these come across as is just pure spite, and becomes very very hard to take that person seriously.

There are a few other issues that people essentially ruin their footing in arguments with like this unfortunately, as you have to sift through vitriol to get to their good points.

One point I've mentioned in a couple of places is the subject of "fun". Fun is completely subjective. While I think most people, even Bayo mains and pro-bayo (anti-ban if we have to "draw a line in the sand") people would probably agree on that, its not the most exciting MU to play in the world. However, there is an absolute bunch of characters I dont have fun against, and I am sure many others are like that as well - our taste in what is fun and not may differ though,

So rather than people using the "fun" as an argument - its generally better to look at oppression. Being un-fun of a MU is not really a point, however, saying its an oppressive MU now perks more of a discussion. There are layers to this, and its a real discussion unto itself, what is oppressive in gaming (some communities will argue this differently, % of field, % of top 8, % of winners etc..)

The biggest thing in all this is to try and look past those that are shouting the loudest, and find and engage with those that are putting out sound points and counter points.

Here you go, and this isn't out of spite, just good game design. Nerf Bayonetta's ability to carry you off the blast zone with a combo. I don't mind the combos, but get rid of the 0-death and the ability to carry you off.

I would argue the opposite of what you're arguing. People don't want to let go of a utility that they find easy. People often see "Nerfs" as a bad thing, because they are used to it and it's good. And the argument is going to be "But that's what makes her unique!". And I would argue, if that's what people believe makes her unique, then it seems like they are biased to wanting easy to pull off kills, rather than appreciating her "combo" game.

 

[Bullys]

Here you go, and this isn't out of spite, just good game design. Nerf Bayonetta's ability to carry you off the blast zone with a combo. I don't mind the combos, but get rid of the 0-death and the ability to carry you off.

I believe you missed my point it seems. Not all nerf suggestions are out of spite, not at all. Those are the ones that we as a community need to ignore, and engage with those that give good suggestions (yours are fine for example).

As such, those that we see talking about doubling lag, adding frames and frames of start up, making it so every single move can't connect no matter the %'s, so on and so forth (these are extreme examples, but genuine examples I've seen given and "supported"), essentially suggesting nothing other than rock bottom is good enough - thats where we see the spite come in. Thats what we don't want to engage as it really doesn't help provide a healthy discussion.

I would argue the opposite of what you're arguing. People don't want to let go of a utility that they find easy. People often see "Nerfs" as a bad thing, because they are used to it and it's good. And the argument is going to be "But that's what makes her unique!". And I would argue, if that's what people believe makes her unique, then it seems like they are biased to wanting easy to pull off kills, rather than appreciating her "combo" game.

Unfortunately again, seems you have missed something here. It looks like you seem to be putting words in my mouth that I am anti-nerf? I've not made any argument at all along those lines (and even if I did touch that subject, my stance is not what you are saying lol) Like I said multiple times, the discussion of nerfs will happen, and its good, we just need to avoid the extremists, those that are screaming loudest from an unproductive point, that devolves into shouting matches on forums and social media.

Believe me, in near 2 decades of gaming, I am more than fine with nerfs. I've both benefited and lost out to them. In games where they are available, its sometimes as important as a bug fix, sometimes its great to see things changed up to shift a meta.

In a fighter, in which players often have solo or small character pools - its understandable that some players do get more attached - if you put 100's or even 1000's of hours into a single character, and that gets cut down from their prime (and this may be a "rightly so" change to the character), there is less of a fall back than we see with some other games, especially if you are competitive. So in that sense I get the tangible attachment to their character and not wanting them to change (it requires new learning, possible results effected, so on and so forth) - to them it will be "bad thing". But that's not limited to Bayo either, Bayo should not be unique in that she is immune to being changed, balanced or nerfed because she is "unique". However, I've said it before, we should look at the job with a scalpel rather than a hammer. BUT those players being attached and upset is not a counter argument to it happening, like I say, sometimes, and often, it is absolutely necessary, and if you have the facility to do it (unlike say a Brawl) then it should be capitalized on.

 

[Managomous]

I believe you missed my point it seems. Not all nerf suggestions are out of spite, not at all. Those are the ones that we as a community need to ignore, and engage with those that give good suggestions (yours are fine for example).

As such, those that we see talking about doubling lag, adding frames and frames of start up, making it so every single move can't connect no matter the %'s, so on and so forth (these are extreme examples, but genuine examples I've seen given and "supported"), essentially suggesting nothing other than rock bottom is good enough - thats where we see the spite come in. Thats what we don't want to engage as it really doesn't help provide a healthy discussion.



Unfortunately again, seems you have missed something here. It looks like you seem to be putting words in my mouth that I am anti-nerf? I've not made any argument at all along those lines (and even if I did touch that subject, my stance is not what you are saying lol) Like I said multiple times, the discussion of nerfs will happen, and its good, we just need to avoid the extremists, those that are screaming loudest from an unproductive point, that devolves into shouting matches on forums and social media.

Believe me, in near 2 decades of gaming, I am more than fine with nerfs. I've both benefited and lost out to them. In games where they are available, its sometimes as important as a bug fix, sometimes its great to see things changed up to shift a meta.

In a fighter, in which players often have solo or small character pools - its understandable that some players do get more attached - if you put 100's or even 1000's of hours into a single character, and that gets cut down from their prime (and this may be a "rightly so" change to the character), there is less of a fall back than we see with some other games, especially if you are competitive. So in that sense I get the tangible attachment to their character and not wanting them to change (it requires new learning, possible results effected, so on and so forth) - to them it will be "bad thing". But that's not limited to Bayo either, Bayo should not be unique in that she is immune to being changed, balanced or nerfed because she is "unique". However, I've said it before, we should look at the job with a scalpel rather than a hammer. BUT those players being attached and upset is not a counter argument to it happening, like I say, sometimes, and often, it is absolutely necessary, and if you have the facility to do it (unlike say a Brawl) then it should be capitalized on.

Gotcha. As chillin said, my bad.

 

[Bullys]

Gotcha. As chillin said, my bad.

Its no problem at all!

Like I say I actually think you are providing constructive discussion.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

You cant take ZeRo's word as law just because he is a top level player. In a very early video he sat there and said Bayo isn't that good in his opinion and that he wouldn't use her because she doesnt fit his play style. That man uses Sheik. He uses Sheik well, no doubt, but to say that Bayonetta carries players is to relinquish the responsibility of learning that matchup, which is ridiculous coming from him considering he hasn't lost to a Bayo in a major, nor has anyone ever won a major with the character. People complaining about Bayo need to get over themselves and learn how to play against a different kind of character, which I think is the real over-arching issue. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAjI_HuSCUg and tell me something about how OP Bayo is. Look at how Viceroy kills her options in the neutral, and how her weight and DI **** with Bayo's combos. Pls.

Wow almost like you have to change your playstyle and try to bait and punish Bayo instead of just rush her down. OMG why has nobody thought of doing this before......

Also completely agree with you on Zero. I need to find the video and repost it but basically he tells people to adapt. There are so many threads about this already and somebody posted that video in there. It really is funny when you or I tell people to adapt they turn away like we are dumb but just post that video because Zero is now telling them they are bad and need to adapt.

becvause he actually learned to deal with the character instead of complaining.
1. he watches his hitboxes
he uses the projectile he has
he punishes heel slide (people still dont do that strangely enough)
he controls the pac e of the game. contrary to popular belief bayo isnt normally i control of a games pace.
throws out multihits to get through potential witch times
punishes batwithin. when possible.
DI her stray hits making a combo confirm hard. especially dABK.
he's playing the matchup coprrectly in a nutshell.

Heaven forbid anyone try that. Don't tell people they need to actually slow their gameplay down, that would be crazy because it isn't "fun" and they need to be able to f-smash in neutral. As much as the scrubs say they won't respect people who say "git gud" it really just comes down to it.

 

[blackghost]

,

False. Been 5+ patches and nothing has changed with Jigglypuff, despite how terribly bleh she is. I don't think that makes sense personally


.

I've talked to jiggs players about why she is bad in this game the main reason they tell me is the game's engine. Lower gravity, slower pace, rest weak, and pound not as good when shields regen at this rate. Jiggs tools dont correlate well with the engine. its not that her tools are just objectively bad. thats zelda's issue.
and she remains a great doubles character. if thats her niche then, like cloud,own it.

 

[Managomous]

I've talked to jiggs players about why she is bad in this game the main reason they tell me is the game's engine. Lower gravity, slower pace, rest weak, and pound not as good when shields regen at this rate. Jiggs tools dont correlate well with the engine. its not that her tools are just objectively bad. thats zelda's issue.
and she remains a great doubles character. if thats her niche then, like cloud,own it.

I disagree with this. The games engine with the current way Jiggs is set up, is debilitating, but there are changes to jiggs that can be made, which would make her a force to reckon with.

U-tilt needs to be fixed, rest needs to be stronger, more speed. If you read the jiggs thread, you'll actually see there are changes we've recommended which would help her out a lot.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Just saw this video on ways to combat Bayo. Is there anything he missed?

 

[blackghost]

Just saw this video on ways to combat Bayo. Is there anything he missed?

nost of this wasn't new information. bayonetta players have been saying this for weeks but now at least there's a video with most of if not all her anti tech in one place.

 

[Simperheve]

My problem with Bayonetta is the stupid ratio of Risk to Reward that you get. It's all well and good saying "Adapt or die" but the problem is that the concept of "Adapting" against Bayonetta is to never get hit, because if you do you are almost certain to be taken off the top or come off with a 40%+ deficit. The movements themselves are fine and the combo potential is fine, but there either needs to be a severe reduction in damage or the way they knock you back to avoid people getting 0-death'd every time they make even the slightest mistake. I'm sure people will adapt to manage the matchup better, but it seems a little unfair to have a character that can pretty much consistently kill at 0% if you make even the slightest slip up.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I'm sure people will adapt to manage the matchup better, but it seems a little unfair to have a character that can pretty much consistently kill at 0% if you make even the slightest slip up.

Good thing we don't have a character like that, then.

 

[blackghost]

. The movements themselves are fine and the combo potential is fine, but there either needs to be a severe reduction in damage or the way they knock you back to avoid people getting 0-death'd every time they make even the slightest mistake.

.

yeah.... she can't do that. like at all. This myyth that she kills you from ANY mistake needs to stop. she CAN kill you off any full witch time but that still requires a lot to go right for the bayo player. if she was really as easy to use and kill with more players would pick her up (like original diddy). true 0 to death combos form her are't common

 

[Managomous]

true 0 to death combos form her are't common

But they exist, hence bad game design.

 

[blackghost]

But they exist, hence bad game design.

not bad game design. an oversight on the character. that no one knows how to fix without destrying her as a character. but i could say the same argument for shiek. how in a game of 58 characters does she not have ONE bad matchup?
and for the record ryu has zero to deaths as well.

 

[Managomous]

not bad game design. an oversight on the character. that no one knows how to fix without destrying her as a character. but i could say the same argument for shiek. how in a game of 58 characters does she not have ONE bad matchup?
and for the record ryu has zero to deaths as well.

By you suggesting no one knows how to fix her without breaking her, you are implying that without 0 to deaths, Bayonetta isn't a valid character. That is not the case. How to fix her? If you read, you would have seen a lot of suggestions were made, such as altering knockback.

Prove Ryu's 0 to death and show how there is little risk and great reward.

 

[Buddhahobo]

you are implying that without 0 to deaths, Bayonetta isn't a valid character.

And you're implying that Bayonetta gameplay centers around 0-to-deaths that don't actually exist, along with, apparently, an average damage output of over 40% for said combos.

It's a flawed conclusion backed by misinformation.

 

[Managomous]

And you're implying that Bayonetta gameplay centers around 0-to-deaths that don't actually exist, along with, apparently, an average damage output of over 40% for said combos.

It's a flawed conclusion backed by misinformation.

No, i'm not implying that Bayonetta's gameplay centers around 0 to deaths. I am stating that it exists and needs to be taken out. I don't care about the combo game, I think Bayonetta can be a good comboer.

And as for "Don't actually exist" comment. Clearly
https://youtu.be/z3gwtYuYvow?t=28

It exists and is pretty disgusting to be honest.

 

[Buddhahobo]

It exists and is pretty disgusting to be honest.

That was also pre-patch and can be DIed out of in particular places. In tournament I very rarely see it kill before the...I want to say ~70% range?, among players that have labbed.
https://twitter.com/dcwastaken/status/721523191282319360

Playing this character is not nearly as simple as learning a six attack combo and spamming it at start.

It's why 9B never commits to a ladder combo and typically gets nearly all of his kills from well spaced back airs and stage spikes now.

From having watching so many post-March 15th tournament matches with Bayonetta to verify some key claims made against and for her (It's not exhaustive obviously as I do have a life and work, but enough to be confident in my assertions), I'm of the larger opinion that the real monster move in her arsenal isn't the 1-frame strings, it's that by-all-appearances free dive kick on shield.


It's no less disgusting as geting fair stringed across the stage to bouncing fished to death by pre-patched Sheik, or dying to Peach's up-b at 30%.

 

[Managomous]

That was also pre-patch and can be DIed out of in particular places. In tournament I very rarely see it kill before the...I want to say ~70% range?, among players that have labbed.
https://twitter.com/dcwastaken/status/721523191282319360

Playing this character is not nearly as simple as learning a six attack combo and spamming it at start.

It's why 9B never commits to a ladder combo and typically gets nearly all of his kills from well spaced back airs and stage spikes now.

From having watching so many post-March 15th tournament matches with Bayonetta to verify some key claims made against and for her (It's not exhaustive obviously as I do have a life and work, but enough to be confident in my assertions), I'm of the larger opinion that the real monster move in her arsenal isn't the 1-frame strings, it's that by-all-appearances free dive kick on shield.


It's no less disgusting as geting fair stringed across the stage to bouncing fished to death by pre-patched Sheik, or dying to Peach's up-b at 30%.

You claimed it didn't exist. Well, regardless if it can be DIed out of, it still does exist. And it is still utilized in tournaments, i've seen it recently. Additionally, because of it's existence, it forces opponents to play a certain way. For instance I recall hearing on a stream "The key to beating that strategy is just to not get dive kicked in the air". Avoiding something entirely for fear of being carried off the stage because of a combo, is ridiculous.

And why are people so hesitant to nerf that one aspect? You're right, getting fair stringed across the stage to bouncing fish to death was sick. And it was nerfed I believed.

Dying to peaches up-b at 30%, not sure if that exists, but I have to assume it does not anymore considering I never see it being used.

So, just like the patches before, Bayonetta's needs to be fixed. I don't quite understand the hesitation. By fixing the 0 to death, you don't get rid of bayonetta's combo potential. And perhaps people can be more creative with Bayonetta should a change be made, rather than being fed combos? Potential is limitless.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Managomous,
I am not sure how Fair strings to BF was nerfed, people just learn to avoid it.
Bayonetta's zero to death can be DI'ed consistently if you know what you're doing.
Characters force you to play in a certain way all the time. Bayonetta just force you to stay in shield more than others and learn how to DI.

Her zero to death is there, but so is the KO punch (not OHKO, I know). It was ridiculously broken when no one knew how to deal with it, but they didn't need to nerf it at all, people just adapted.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Well, regardless if it can be DIed out of, it still does exist.

...seriously? In that case a lot of characters have a 0-to-death combo, if we're assuming we can still call it a 0-to-death when the opponent isn't touching their controller during any of it.

And why are people so hesitant to nerf that one aspect?

No one is. We're disputing this thought process:

So, just like the patches before, Bayonetta's needs to be fixed.

You can't look at the character under the assumption of a future patch. It sets a poor precedent for something that may or may not exist in the end.

To take the thought process to it's logical conclusion, it's either a fix or a ban, and that is that assumption that we're against.

She does not "need" to be fixed, because she is not game breaking. She has numerous flaws that very few people attempt to exploit. Yes, it would be nice if the time to allow for a punish on a wiffed complete combo was a larger window, but we have to look at the character in the present, not assuming a 1.1.7 patch that will magically solve everything with regards to a community's perception of a character.

Avoiding something entirely for fear of being carried off the stage because of a combo, is ridiculous.

"If you don't want to lose, don't get hit" is a ridiculous belief? ...in a fighting game?

Additionally, because of it's existence, it forces opponents to play a certain way.

Every character forces you to play a certain way. That's what makes them different characters.

Further, changing this one thing would not change how opponents are forced to play against Bayonetta. If that's where the apparent hate is coming from over, say, people parroting the misinformation from some particular sources, then that won't actually change anything with regards to the character hate.

 

[Managomous]

Managomous,
I am not sure how Fair strings to BF was nerfed, people just learn to avoid it.
Bayonetta's zero to death can be DI'ed consistently if you know what you're doing.
Characters force you to play in a certain way all the time. Bayonetta just force you to stay in shield more than others and learn how to DI.

Her zero to death is there, but so is the KO punch (not OHKO, I know). It was ridiculously broken when no one knew how to deal with it, but they didn't need to nerf it at all, people just adapted.

For sheik, they nerfed the aerial range which made it easier to DI out of/ easier to not get strung into. That's not adaptation. That's a nerf.

For the KO Punch, I would argue that since the beginning where people were complaining it was OP, there have been many patches which have made characters a lot heavier, thus influencing the impact the KO punch actually had. In addition, people were crying about the KO punch when the game was first introduced. It was an overreaction. People didn't really understand the game at all.

Please read over the other posts and try to understand that a lot of patches have influenced the metagame and the concepts that were considered "Broken" in the past. And the tournament top 8's have, dare-I-say, proven the little risk, high reward concept in favor of Bayonetta.

...seriously? In that case a lot of characters have a 0-to-death combo, if we're assuming we can still call it a 0-to-death when the opponent isn't touching their controller during any of it.

An over exaggeration to say the least. There's a difference between carrying someone completely off the stage into the blast zone, vs doing a combo that knocks them off the stage in which case they have the opportunity to grab the ledge. Bayonetta's, if you DI improperly or don't DI at all, you get carried into the blast zone, end of. Show me more characters that have this ability plz.

No one is. We're disputing this thought process:

I would argue that some are disputing the thought process, and some are disputing it based off of what works in their favor without giving the logic much thought. Please don't make absolute statements such as "No one is".

To take the thought process to it's logical conclusion, it's either a fix or a ban, and that is that assumption that we're against.

A ban is illogical for I agree, the character is NOT that broken. Just has a broken concept, such as 0 to death.

"If you don't want to lose, don't get hit" is a ridiculous belief? ...in a fighting game?

Again, you took a statement of mine, and took it to an extreme. Therefore I am going to use your method to help you better understand. What I am against is, "If I get hit once, game over". In a fighting game, I believe that's wrong. Especially when 90%+ of the cast does not have that option/ability.

Further, changing this one thing would not change how opponents are forced to play against Bayonetta. If that's where the apparent hate is coming from over, say, people parroting the misinformation from some particular sources, then that won't actually change anything with regards to the character hate.

I understand that being forced to play a certain style against an opponent, is natural. I am not stating there is something wrong with that. What I am stating is, there is something wrong with the ideology of "If I get hit once while in the air, I have the potential to get KO'd instantly. Literally, carried off into the blast zone." Regardless if you can potentially get out of it, the percentage of someone getting carried off, still exists. I would really love to see statistics on how often this happens honestly, it'd be interesting.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

For sheik, they nerfed the aerial range which made it easier to DI out of/ easier to not get strung into. That's not adaptation. That's a nerf.

Sheik is fast enough to still chain it consistently, the problem with the range nerf is trading more often, but the string didn't really change.
Fair to BF wasn't really nerfed.

For the KO Punch, I would argue that since the beginning where people were complaining it was OP, there have been many patches which have made characters a lot heavier, thus influencing the impact the KO punch actually had. In addition, people were crying about the KO punch when the game was first introduced. It was an overreaction. People didn't really understand the game at all.

There has be only 2 patches that made 5 characters heavier. KO Punch was basically never nerfed.
And exactly, her consistent zero to death is an overreaction.

 

[Managomous]

And exactly, her consistent zero to death is an overreaction.

Never once did I say the 0 to death was consistent.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Show me more characters that have this ability plz.

ZSS?

Just has a broken concept, such as 0 to death.

0 to death is pretty inconsistent with proper DI, just as inconsistent as KO punch.

What I am against is, "If I get hit once, game over".

Which, rarely happens nowadays. It is common for Bayonetta's opponents to live past 100%.

there is something wrong with the ideology of "If I get hit once while in the air, I have the potential to get KO'd instantly. Literally, carried off into the blast zone."

That is an exaggeration, this a mindset of a scrub.
If is common for Bayonetta's opponents to live past 100%, top player won't think that silly.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Never once did I say the 0 to death was consistent.

You entered this particular part of the discussion from people disputing Simperheve saying "I'm sure people will adapt to manage the matchup better, but it seems a little unfair to have a character that can pretty much consistently kill at 0% if you make even the slightest slip up."

It would make sense that you're then defending the statement at hand.

An over exaggeration to say the least.

Not as much an over exaggeration as a conflict of definition.

The problem is not that a 0-to-death exists or doesn't. The problem is the belief that the combo is, in fact, inescapable.

There's a difference between carrying someone completely off the stage into the blast zone, vs doing a combo that knocks them off the stage in which case they have the opportunity to grab the ledge.

Of course. Just doesn't have anything to do with what I said. If they're grabbing the ledge, then they aren't dead.

Please don't make absolute statements such as "No one is".

*shrugs*

A generalization for a generalization. "Why are people so..." and all that jazz that I was responding to.

Again, you took a statement of mine, and took it to an extreme.

Yes, that's typically what one does with a thought process. How else would one find where it breaks down?

What I am against is, "If I get hit once, game over".

You must hate Divekick.

Regardless, now you're stating precisely what Simperheve was saying that started all of this; the slightest mistake, and you die regardless of percent.

It simply inaccurate.

Further, fighting game characters have combo starters. It's not a new concept. Quite a few games are built around this leading to, yes, even max health to death combos if you can keep it up. Just look at Marvel or GG.

I'm going off on a tangent, but yes, I understand what you are against. Do you also hold this view towards ledge spiking and meteor / spike attacks?

I would really love to see statistics on how often this happens honestly, it'd be interesting.

http://smashboards.com/threads/help...plan-to-verify-claims-about-bayonetta.435000/

Feel free to add any recommendations or tournaments to add to the queue.

And the tournament top 8's have, dare-I-say, proven the little risk, high reward concept in favor of Bayonetta.

Hardly. A character in Top 8 doesn't prove anything other than they're in Top 8 and potentially the viability of the character, especially for the reason you're giving.

As I already gave as an example, 9B almost never commits to a full ladder combos, but from well spaced side-bs and stage spikes from neutral or edge guarding. Rather, I looked at how the player made it to the Top 8, what tools were actually utilized, who the players where, etc, is what one has to do; not just look at the challonge bracket.

 

[Managomous]

You entered this particular part of the discussion from people disputing Simperheve saying "I'm sure people will adapt to manage the matchup better, but it seems a little unfair to have a character that can pretty much consistently kill at 0% if you make even the slightest slip up."

It would make sense that you're then defending the statement at hand.

One. I did not enter the conversation at this point in time. I've been in this conversation/discussion from the beginning and have been replying to posts as much as possible. To state I "entered" at this time, and to even go so far as to say I entered in order to defend the statement that was made, makes me believe that you have not even attempted to read over the entire discussion and to understand nor comprehend what I was saying. I could be wrong, so forgive me if so. If you did, you would see that I was not defending the statement that it was consistent. Please stop attempting to assume what I am trying to say, and then replying as though it is fact. It makes it confusing to others whom are just joining the conversation.

The problem is not that a 0-to-death exists or doesn't. The problem is the belief that the combo is, in fact, inescapable.

And in some situations, the combo is inescapable. IE, if you don't DI properly, it's inescapable. As many people, and many videos have stated. Again, it's not an absolute. It can be escaped. But the fact that there are certain situations where it cannot be escaped, mmmm I believe that is a problem.

A generalization for a generalization. "Why are people so..." and all that jazz that I was responding to.

When you use "No one" you are implying all or an absolute, when I say "Why are people" that is not saying all, you inferred all, when it could also be "some".



[quote[]You must hate Divekick.

Regardless, now you're stating precisely what Simperheve was saying that started all of this; the slightest mistake, and you die regardless of percent.

It simply inaccurate.

Not sure if you misinterpreted what I was saying which drew you to this conclusion, or perhaps because you assumed I "entered" the conversation to back up Simperheve's statement that you are assuming I believe in the fact that you die regardless of percent based on the slightest mistake. Let me clarify, I know you don't die at every percent. But it still exists.

Further, fighting game characters have combo starters. It's not a new concept. Quite a few games are built around this leading to, yes, even max health to death combos if you can keep it up. Just look at Marvel or GG.

Yup, I acknowledge those games and those combos. And I believed even back then, they were bad game designs, and I believe the same arguments sparked in those communities as well. Some passed bans on certain characters due to the max health to death combos. And here we stand again. Again, just to clarify, I don't believe Bayo should be banned. But I do believe the 0 to death needs to be fixed. Again, although I don't necessarily like dive kick leading to a combo because of it's ease, I don't think it's "Broken". What's broken, is being able to guide a character to the blast zone, unless they DI properly, and kill them instantly. That doesn't sit right with me.

I'm going off on a tangent, but yes, I understand what you are against. Do you also hold this view towards ledge spiking and meteor / spike attacks?

Nope, I don't hold that belief towards these aspects. Why? Because a majority of characters have these tools at their disposal. Additionally, there are a substantial amount of options you can use to attempt to avoid it, not just "DI". And finally, there is no 0 to death with this.


[quote[http://smashboards.com/threads/help...plan-to-verify-claims-about-bayonetta.435000/

Feel free to add any recommendations or tournaments to add to the queue. [/quote]

Very cool! I would look forward to seeing the data.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Avoiding something entirely for fear of being carried off the stage because of a combo, is ridiculous.
.

Ice Climbers

And perhaps people can be more creative with Bayonetta should a change be made, rather than being fed combos? Potential is limitless

People are creative already. If it is so easy to do any of these combos especially the one Pink Fresh did to force Mr. R into the SIDE blast zone then go ahead and start winning tournaments yourself.


Can someone link the gif where Bayo dies to Jiggs rest as she is going for a ladder combo. I really can't stand anymore of these posts.

 

[Whispy]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/smashunited-2016041112638758 Here ya go lol.

 

[Managomous]

Ice Climbers

People are creative already. If it is so easy to do any of these combos especially the one Pink Fresh did to force Mr. R into the SIDE blast zone then go ahead and start winning tournaments yourself.


Can someone link the gif where Bayo dies to Jiggs rest as she is going for a ladder combo. I really can't stand anymore of these posts.

Right. And if you read any of the previous posts (Not sure if you did, but not sounding like it) I also stated that concepts such as wobbles is very controversial and in some senses is broken in essence. Broken doesn't necessarily imply that it breaks the game to the point where it's unbeatable and gives that player an overwhelming winning presence.

And what the hell does Jiggs doing a rest for a ladder combo have anything to do with this or prove? That Bayo can be punished if shielded? Again, I did not imply Bayo couldn't be beaten. And again, as for the comment "Go ahead and start winning tournaments yourself" it's clear to me you're associating the term "Broken" with can't be beat. Correct me if i'm wrong. Please read the rest of the posts. There are actually some really good points made by others, both who have the same belief as myself, have similar beliefs, and whose beliefs are different.

Also, if you can't stand reading any of these posts, please stop reading. The intention of this topic is to discuss what makes characters such as bayonetta "Hated" on. We're merely going over that.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Eventhubs just put up an article discussing bayonetta.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...-why-you-shouldnt-be-so-afraid-big-bad-witch/

 

[Zult]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/smashunited-2016041112638758 Here ya go lol.

Why are you here. Get out

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

There are actually some really good points made by others.
.

You are not amongst them, I have checked this thread and others like it since the beginning.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

l can't stop thinking about switching to some lower tier and/or underused character to fight Bayo, i.e Shulk, Ganon, Palu, BJ, Mac. l mean, quite a few lower tiers can't play as aggressively as you'd like, but have a bit more notable of an immediate punish game. lf fighting Bayo means camping and being boring, at least try to play a character that can get rewarded for doing that. That way, you'll see some more characters, people will be surprised, and Bayo won't be spoonfed aggressive approaches as much.

Not saying that this WILL be the meta against her, but it's a thought l've had for awhile and l want to know what other people think about it.

l've been telling people for months that Palutena would be top tier, now might be my chance to prove it. MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

 

[Managomous]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ding_to_the_japanese_guide_on_bayos_specials/

Interesting, probably another thing to hate on considering it cancel's DI. Can't say i'm surprised, not sure how likely it is though. But it would explain some wonky kills for sure in favor of Bayo.

 

[Zult]

>When you see people start complaining about a 'new' bayonetta thing that you've known for weeks

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ding_to_the_japanese_guide_on_bayos_specials/

Interesting, probably another thing to hate on considering it cancel's DI. Can't say i'm surprised, not sure how likely it is though. But it would explain some wonky kills for sure in favor of Bayo.

I heard the reason you can't DI is because it doesn't put you into tumble.
The reason you don't enter tumble is because the KB is really low.
If you look at which hitbox cancels DI, it make sense that it has little KB.
Plus, this shows all other hixbox allows DI. Beefy Smash Doods' video is still very valid.

 

[TurboLink]

Managomous,
I am not sure how Fair strings to BF was nerfed, people just learn to avoid it.
Bayonetta's zero to death can be DI'ed consistently if you know what you're doing.
Characters force you to play in a certain way all the time. Bayonetta just force you to stay in shield more than others and learn how to DI.

Her zero to death is there, but so is the KO punch (not OHKO, I know). It was ridiculously broken when no one knew how to deal with it, but they didn't need to nerf it at all, people just adapted.

Bouncing Fish had a knockback nerf.

l can't stop thinking about switching to some lower tier and/or underused character to fight Bayo, i.e Shulk, Ganon, Palu, BJ, Mac. l mean, quite a few lower tiers can't play as aggressively as you'd like, but have a bit more notable of an immediate punish game. lf fighting Bayo means camping and being boring, at least try to play a character that can get rewarded for doing that. That way, you'll see some more characters, people will be surprised, and Bayo won't be spoonfed aggressive approaches as much.

Not saying that this WILL be the meta against her, but it's a thought l've had for awhile and l want to know what other people think about it.

l've been telling people for months that Palutena would be top tier, now might be my chance to prove it. MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

Ganondorf does terrible against Bayonetta.